Talk:Shenmue III/Archive 1

Archive 1

Vaporware/trolling

"None of the users edits should be taken seriously. They are a troll and everything they have ever done here is done in an attempt to troll. This is no different. If you do revert again, I won't seek further discussion but do know that the IP is a troll." So says Dissident93 SubSeven DangerousJXD. That might well be true, but it seems to me that this does, perhaps even coincidentally, belong in the vaporware category. Independently of the user's history, do you think that's right? Popcornduff (talk) 13:24, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

It doesn't seem right to me. Vaporware would imply the game was in production but never surfaced? Not the case with Shenmue 3. It was never in production and nobody was under that impression, to my knowledge. --SubSeven (talk) 15:52, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

I understand what you're saying, but the category explicitly says: "This category contains articles on products (hardware, software, other) that can be considered (or were once considered) vaporware." Popcornduff (talk) 07:00, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

So.... when was it considered vaporware? (Also I didn't say that quote, it was DangerousJXD). --SubSeven (talk) 15:59, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

Jesus Christmas, I seem to have had a stroke. Apologies for misquoting everyone on the planet.

When was Shenmue 3 considered vaporware? During its multi-year state in development hell. Some sources:

• https://www.wired.com/2015/12/2015-in-vaporware/
• http://www.technobuffalo.com/2016/10/11/vaporware-games/
• http://uproxx.com/gammasquad/shenmue-iii-5-million/

It was not in development hell because it was not in development, period! Try to find a source that confirms it was in development before E3 2015.

• First link doesn't exactly call it vaporware. It suggests that the announcement of the game (in 2015) when development had barely begun could lead to it being vaporware.
• Second link doesn't either. In fact it does the opposite, and makes the distinction that I was trying to make: "We’re not talking sequels that gamers have been calling for or want to see happen like Shenmue 3 or the Final Fantasy VII Remake, but games that are on the record for being in development for a longer-than-normal period of time?"
• Third link does say 'vaporware legend Shenmue 3'. So, I guess that's one example that makes one passing mention of it being vaporware. But it's wrong :P --SubSeven (talk) 02:17, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

The term "development hell" originates in the film industry, where development means pre-production. Shenmue III was indeed in development hell for over a decade precisely because it wasn't in development. There is older discussion on this talk page about the same confusion. Popcornduff (talk) 11:28, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

We could debate that, but we'd be arguing semantics over the wrong term anyway. The question is whether to include the category Category:Vaporware, and that category page, as well as the vaporware article, clearly state that to be vaporware, the game must be announced to the public. Definitely not the case with Shenmue 3. --SubSeven (talk) 14:25, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

I'm really in two minds about it. It was never formally announced in the sense that no one, before E3 last year, said "Hey everyone, we're making Shenmue 3." But it was kind of announced when Sega was planning to release the Shenmue saga in multiple parts. It was understood that Shenmue 2 wasn't supposed to be the last instalment - hence the massive demand for the third game for so long - and we know for a fact that the game had extensive pre-production and even some development back in the day, but to what extent we don't know. My gut instinct is that therefore vaporware is a reasonable term for it, but I do concede that there aren't strong sources saying that. Popcornduff (talk) 14:46, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

I don't know. I see where you're coming from, but personally, I think that's a stretch and really opens it up to all kinds of stuff. I favor a clear guideline, like a game being officially announced, so editors can be objective rather than make judgment calls. I guess ultimately it comes down to what sources say. If sources say that Shenmue 3 was vaporware, so be it, but I think better sources would be needed in this case. Or honestly, maybe the term vaporware is nebulous enough that it's really not a great category to have in the first place. Any others have an opinion here? --SubSeven (talk) 05:48, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

• You called the wrong user, I never stated this. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 19:35, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
  • Many apologies, I got mixed up! Popcornduff (talk) 07:00, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

"Open-world" vs "open world"

Dissident93 and I disagree on this one. A trivial issue, but hey, let's sort it out.

"Open world", when used as an adjective, should be hyphenated. That's how English grammar works: when you glue two words together to use as a compound adjective, you hyphenate them. Examples: "open-door policy", "out-of-office message", "once-in-a-lifetime opportunity", etc.

As the Guardian style guide explains, for example: "Hyphens should, however, be used to form short compound adjectives, eg two-tonne vessel, three-year deal, 19th-century artist." Another Guardian example: "Hyphen when used adjectivally: a half-eaten sandwich; a half-cut subeditor; half-time oranges."

Now, I know the Skyrim article doesn't write "open-world", but it should - and if I was reading that article and saw it, I'd jump in and fix it. Just because an article is GA doesn't mean it's perfect - I've written enough GA articles to know that all too well. Popcornduff (talk) 04:32, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

I'm just going by what the article is using, and nobody has bothered to change it or any of the games that use it thus far. You are probably correct though, and if you are, then every game article that uses open world instead of open-world should be changed. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 04:35, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

That's correct - ideally every instance of "open world" as an adjective should be hyphenated. If you're persuaded, can I change it back here? Popcornduff (talk) 04:37, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Another example: "first-person shooter". Popcornduff (talk) 12:44, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Coming back to this, but since nearly all reliable sources use "open world", doesn't that give it a valid use since it's the common name, irregardless of its grammatical correctness? ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 17:48, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Call me stubborn, but I see the abundance of "open world" without a hyphen - when used as an adjective - only as evidence of how poorly hyphenation is understood even by journalists. I can point you to plenty of mainstream style guides that explain how compound adjectives work, and will argue that "open-world game" fits along those lines. It follows exactly the same logic as "first-person shooter" (which is nearly always hyphenated).

Having said that, there are some kinds of compound adjective that are so commonplace the hyphen has been ditched altogether, like "high school student". I suppose you might be able to make an argument along the lines of WP:COMMONNAME, but I can still find plenty of sources that use "open-world" with a hyphen, and I'm not sure if the common name guideline applies to this situation. You could open a discussion about it on WP:VG and if consensus decides against hyphenating I'll respect that.

By the way, I can't find any previous discussion of this on WP:VG, as you mentioned in an edit summary recently. I'd be interested in seeing it if anyone can find it. Popcornduff (talk) 12:34, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Well I'm not arguing against its grammatical correctness, but rather how common using the hyphen is in the sources we use. Does grammatical correctness trump the common name? As for the last part, it might have just been a blurb when we were discussing including open world in the lead as a genre. I could be misremembering, however. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 05:08, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

I argue for grammatical correctness unless you can show that the overwhelming use is without the hyphen. If you google "open world game", the first page returns exactly four results that use the hyphen, and four that don't (excluding Wikipedia). If you think it's something we should figure out, you should take it to WP:VG. The consensus might not agree with me. Popcornduff (talk) 05:16, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps its a more recent development then, I don't ever remember seeing this five or so years ago. Is there any reason why this same argument hasn't gone to the article itself? It's still without a hyphen. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 05:39, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

I imagine no one has cared before. The title of the open world article is OK because that's a noun, not an adjective, and doesn't need a hyphen. I've been bold and hyphenated the adjective uses of "open world" in the article. (The hyphen use was inconsistent before - some adjective uses were hyphenated correctly, many weren't.) If someone objects a discussion can go from there. Popcornduff (talk) 09:12, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

PayPal pledges

Does anyone know if the pledge amount on the Shenmue Slacker page includes the Kickstarter pledges too? The article is ambiguous at the moment and I'd like to clarify. Popcornduff (talk) 06:08, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

Open world

Is there some consensus as to whether the game is going to be open-world, as were Shenmue I and II? The article mentions that 10$ million was the figure initially cited in order for it to happen, but someone's already added open-world to the article categories at the bottom of the page, and I've found several recent articles that mention the game being open-world. 164.68.29.8 (talk) 03:08, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

Suzuki has announced that he intends to make an open world video game, and it's assumed by reliable sources to be an open-world game, so I think it's fine to treat it like that until the game is made and something else happens. Popcornduff (talk) 06:04, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

Sony funding the game?

There's news going around that Sony is funding the development of Shenmue 3, but apparently they're only funding the PORTING of the game over from PC to PS4 or something to that effect. This video, while it may not be considered a reliable source by Wikipedia's standards by itself, sheds light onto the confusion and cites sources from actual people within Sony. I think that we should update the article to reflect upon the proper facts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Idw_IQx2L0g — Preceding unsigned comment added by TopHatProfessor1014 (talk • contribs) 22:18, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Edit: And this forum post also brings forth some new information as well.

http://www.shenmuedojo.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=47805 — Preceding unsigned comment added by TopHatProfessor1014 (talk • contribs) 22:20, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

"Development hell"

Is this really the right term to use? Technically, while the plot outline was written as a trilogy, its my understanding that development hasn't even really begun. It's been years of rumors and "We'd like to somedays" by PR Reps, but it's not like they've been actually working on the game itself much/at all in the last decade... Sergecross73 msg me 13:30, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Agreed, the project is only now entering development. I'll make the edit. Drsmoo (talk) 15:25, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

That's the definition of development hell.

In media industry jargon, development hell (or development limbo) is a state during which a film or other project remains in development without progressing to production. A film, video game, television program, screenplay, computer program,[1] concept, or idea stranded in development hell takes an especially long time to start production, or never does. Projects in development hell are not officially cancelled, but work on them slows or stops.

• Development hell

--Harizotoh9 (talk) 17:59, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Shenmue III started production when they outlined the plot. Writing the plot counts as production. It's been started and cancelled multiple times. Fits the definition of "development hell" very well. --Harizotoh9 (talk) 18:06, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

It never entered production though, and the over-arching plot was written for the overall trilogy, so it doesn't really meet that definition. I don't think you're thinking of the "production phase" like it's typically used in the making of games/film/music etc. Writing an overarching story for the series wouldn't be considered the production phase of the third game. See the video game development article, specifically Production section to see what in talking about here. Sergecross73 msg me 00:11, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

I think if you go down that road, you end up with different definitions of "development hell" for different industries, which isn't really helpful to the reader.

In the film industry, development means developing the idea of the film - getting it down on paper, getting funding etc so you can put it in production. In the games industry, as in software, development is the equivalent of production in the film industry.

I'd call Shenmue 3 a classic text of development hell - just because no one's been building it doesn't mean Suzuki hasn't been desperately trying to get it made for years, and in a very meaningful sense as a major player in the games industry, with major publishing/development houses involved. Popcornduff (talk) 10:06, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, upon closer inspection, I was too caught up in Harizotoh's definition, saying that its about being stuck in production, which it wasn't. If you check the wording in the article for development hell says its stuck in the stages before production, not necessarily "in-production". Using that definition, I suppose it does fit. Sergecross73 msg me 13:50, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Publisher

Sony never said that they will publish the game but only give some help ( http://www.gamespot.com/videos/the-point-how-did-shenmue-3-raise-63-million/2300-6426535/ ). Furthermore, the mention "Sony Computer Entertainment" has never been seen with any official Shenmue III reference. In the meantime, Cédric Biscay, the French co-producer of Shenmue 3, confirmed that YS Net will be the publisher of the PS4 version. His quote is from a Gamekult.com premium article ("Cédric Biscay, en revanche, est implacable : “pour la version PS4, c’est YS Net l’éditeur.”" http://www.gamekult.com/actu/shenmue-iii-du-miracle-au-mirage-A150499.html ). Gamekult.com confirmed later in a free article that Sony is not the publisher. http://www.gamekult.com/actu/shenmue-iii-sony-precise-son-role-A151957.html .

• Thanks. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 05:07, 26 December 2015 (UTC)