Talk:Regional vocabularies of American English/Archive 1

I'm not sure about the best way to organize this, but for now I'm going to start off with a table for each region, with the regional word and its Standard English equivalent.

I'm also going to have to play a little fast and loose as to what constitutes a "region," but in all cases widely accepted terms should be used, e.g. "Delaware Valley" instead of "Philadelphia metropolitan area," which nobody says. Ambiguous terms like "Tri-state area" shouldn't be used for obvious reasons. Geographic descriptions are also good, e.g. "Northeastern Minnesota."

To start off with I think that everyday terms for describing regions are fine -- Midwest, South (Southeast and Southwest), Northeast, Midatlantic, Plains, West, and Pacific Northwest. These are just suggestions -- I haven't lived in most of these places, so I'm not sure how people who do live there refer to them. But I'm sure that as more people contribute their regional vocabulary words, a standard set of terms will emerge. (There's an article that references formal linguistic classifications in a "phonological atlas," but some of the terms used there would only be recognizable by linguists, and I'm hoping that this will be more of a general interest article. But here's the link anyway: [1].

I've started off by putting down a few words from the Delaware Valley where I grew up, and a few from the South, as I have come into contact with a lot of Southerners from school and at work.

I imagine that the tables could be expanded to include a column for subregions, like if a term is only used in a certain area of a region instead of throughout the entire region. And that's really all I can think of for now.

--Dablaze 21:35, Aug 12, 2004 (UTC)

Eh...I'm not sure calling some stuff "Standard English" and ghettoizing other terms is the best way to do this. If was from somewhere that used hoagie universally, I would be unthrilled to be told it was not "Standard English." Maybe we should just include a variety of terms and label them with locations: Hoagie [location], grinder [location], gyro/hero (?), sub sandwich, etc. I just feel like right now this is kind of POV.

Good point. Perhaps "General Term" or "Common Term" would be better. I just used "Standard English" because it's, well, the standard term used by linguists.

As for "ghettoizing," I'm not sure what you mean. A word or phrase confined to a region is by its very nature analogous to the concept of a ghetto -- a unique subset of a larger entity.

Besides, that's the whole point of this article! To use your example, I grew up saying "hoagie," and it wasn't until I got to college that I discovered that everyone else said "sub" and had no idea what a hoagie was. I was definitely "unthrilled," but it was a reality that I couldn't ignore.

In any case, I don't think that the mere act of documenting these regional differences is pejorative or "ghettoizing." It's just a recognition that regional linguistic variations exist, and attempts to present them in an easily understandable format for the average speaker of American English.

--Dablaze 05:58, Aug 13, 2004 (UTC)

I don't see any strong reason why tables are needed or helpful here. I'd prefer to do without them; it makes adding and editing to the article much easier. Comments, thoughts? -- Infrogmation 06:39, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Oh, Wiki tables aren't so bad! :-) Actually I think the tables really help readability, even if they're slightly more involved to edit. I can't imagine that a non-table format would be more reader-friendly, but if you can think of something, why not do a little mockup on this talk page? --Dablaze 00:46, Aug 30, 2004 (UTC)

I wasn't making any blanket statement calling them bad in general, just stating my opinion that they seem unnecessary here. I'll do a mockup soon if that's what needed. -- Infrogmation 01:36, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Untabled version

Okay, I made a mockup version without tables at Regional vocabularies of American English/Temp. I find this much easier to edit. Other comments? -- Infrogmation 02:08, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the mockup. It does work, but I still think the tables look cleaner and are easier for readers to follow. I just don't think that the Wiki table markup is that inconvenient, especially since the tables are all standardized and only individual cells need to be inserted as needed. Am I missing something? --Dablaze 02:56, Aug 30, 2004 (UTC)

(BTW, I added the New Orleans vocab to the original page. Was that ready to go? --Dablaze 03:02, Aug 30, 2004 (UTC))

Yes, sure, the New Orleans stuff was ready to go, thanks for adding it to the main page. I added it to the Temp as that is just so much easier to edit :-) ...I like being able to have section edits and have sub-headers, though no doubt a version with both that and tables could be constructed. Anyway, it looks like we have one opinion prefering with tables and one opinion prefering without. Opinions and comments from anyone else? Cheers, -- Infrogmation 03:25, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Is it worth noting the difference between Northern and Southern Californians in the way they refer to freeways? For example, when naming U.S. Highway 101 in colloquial speech Southern Californians will say The 101 while Northern Californians just say 101. -- J3ff 07:37, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I think that's more of a distinction between areas with large cities and those without. My theory is that large cities have named expressways, like "the Bishop Ford" or "the Eisenhower" in Chicago, which tends to cause numeric expressway designations to take a definate article also (e.g. "the 294" or "the 355"). In areas without a lot of named expressways, the highways tend to be called things like "Route 40" or "I-74" with no article, which leads to shortened names like "40" and "74". On the other hand, if I remember correctly, the Chicago suburbs have "53" (Illinois Route 53) also, so it's not a hard rule, but regional variation never is either. --12.214.237.110 08:50, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Hotdish vs. Casserole

That bit about hotdish/casserole: Is that some small casserole? ISTR that Americans use 'entree' to mean 'main course'? or maybe it's one of those other words---appetiser, hors d'oeuvre. Felix the Cassowary 07:20, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Hotdish is a type of casserole, although nobody in the upper midwest would ever think of calling a hotdish a casserole. That would be like calling a tattered rag a fine garment. Hotdishes are lip-smackingly delicious, but nobody thinks of them as fine dining. Think goulash without the peppers. Tomer^talk 10:48, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Texan

There should be some mention of Texan English. 11:05, 16 April 2005

California

bitchin / bitchen: excellent, great. "Bitchin threads, man." bogus: unimpressive, bad, not believable. "That is so bogus, dude!" boss: good, excellent. "That is one boss car, bro!" bummer: bad, unfortunate. "What a bummer." for sure: agreed. "For sure, whatever." off the richter: beyond belief. "This wine is off the richter!" stoked: happy, excited. "I am so stoked, man!"

and, from Valley girl: literally, a female teenager from Los Angeles' San Fernando Valley. More typically a ditzy, spoiled mall rat. From Frank Zappa’s 1982 Ship Arriving Too Late to Save a Drowing Witch album. As if – lit. ‘as if’ except it does not use a subject; expresses disgust Whatever!- short for ‘whatever you say’; sarcastic comeback Barf me out! - ‘So disgusting it makes me want to vomit’ Fer shur – lit. ‘For sure’ Betch – lit. ‘Bitch’ Totally – ‘I agree’ or ‘completely’ Gag me with a spoon! - ‘you are so disgusting that you make me want to vomit’ Tubular – Excellent, perfect, as in a (surfable) wave which forms a tube Grody to the max! – ‘As gross as he/she/it can be’ Like, oh my God – can be used many ways; expresses shock I’m suuure! or I'm so sure – ‘I'm absolutely positive’, but usually used sarcastically Tripendicular! - It can either mean 'awesome' or a drug high. Totally Radical, Dude! – ‘That is incredible, man’ You are totally sluggin'! – ‘You are really cool’ Betty - An attractive woman. Don't Have a Cow - Don't freak out. DOR (HK) (talk) 07:28, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Chicago

There should be some mention of Chicagoan English, which is distinct from Midwestern English due to strong influence from New York and Boston, but remains rhotic and uses a number of different terms as well.65.87.20.98 17:15, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

This "article" is a mess of POV and OR

despite citations, some of the defining features of "Pacific Northwest" are not particularly "particular". For example, "pop" is used across much of the northern tier of states, as opposed to "soda" (which, in Wisconsin, for example, only has particular sway in the Milwaukee area). "high muckamuck" is, I believe, found throughout the US, as is its variant "muckity-muck". The assertion that "powwow" is somehow "northwestern" is particularly laughable, as it comes from Narrangansett. "Potlatch" is an interesting variant of "pot-luck" and deserves mention, as do a number of lumbering-related terms, including "timber tiger"...but not "second-growth". Cash registers are called "tills" throughout the US. The Delaware Valley is much better put together, as it actually concentrates on words that are used only rarely in the way they're used there, elsewhere. The "New Orleans" section has an interesting note about the use of "by", which is also mentioned in Yinglish, so it'd be interesting to see the source for the assertion that it's used the same way in NO English. The New York City Area asserts that "youse" finds its home in NYC, although I think youse'd be hard-put to find many people in NYC who actually say "youse". In "The South", we again have "tills" for "cash registers". "Yonder" is hardly a southernism, although that perception is understandable from movieland. Why is there no mention of the classic examples "croker-sack" (burlap bag, or, as we say in Wisconsin, a gunny sack) and "skeeter-hawk" (a dragonfly)? The Eastern Wisconsin "budge" is actually just wrong...although I have heard it, it's not common. Bubbler is Eastern Wisconsin, although it's also found elsewhere, and F.I.B. is found throughout Wisconsin, especially in high-tourism areas. I can't help but notice that the derogatory term for Minnesotans (mudpuppies) isn't mentioned. :-) Minnesota "hotdish" is used commonly throughout the northern upper midwest as a distinct (and rather unimaginative) type of "casserole". Again, nothing particularly "minnesotan" about "pop". The Twin Cities also, are referred to simply as "the Cities" throughout the upper Midwest. At "Maine and Northern New England", the claim is made that "fiddlehead" is a type of fern, when, in fact, it is not. As our article on fiddleheads indicates. (Where it also becomes clear that this article's assertion that they're a popular dish "in northern Maine" is made dubious...while they may be popular in northern Maine, from reading the article, it seems they're more popular in New Brunswick, Ontario and New York...and having eaten them here in Wisconsin, now they appear to be more popular here too...) Incidentally, I just took that fun little "What kind of American English do you speak?" quiz...I call it a "bubbler", other than that, I speak 75% General American, 20% Upper Midwestern and 5% Midwestern. Anyone know which words are considered which by that quiz? Tomer^talk 07:41, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

It's true this article is a mess of POV and OR. Unfortunately the same is true of a large number of articles relating to accents and dialects of English, as I lamented at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Languages#Original research/no cited sources in English dialect articles. --Angr (t·c) 08:31, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

P.S. Potlatch is from Chinook Jargon from Nootka and is etymologically unrelated to potluck. Folk-etymological influence is possible I suppose, though I've never seen it suggested. --Angr (t·c) 11:00, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

A potlatch is an Indian festival in which the chief gives away his posessions. A potluck is a gathering where each guest brings a dish to share. Two different things. The potluck article says it's an English term from the 16th century. Sluggoster (talk) 06:54, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

New York coffee "regular" is WITH whole milk and an abundance of sugar!! Yes, and I'm going to change it. Geez.

Article Causes Identity Crisis! (Needs Sources)

Having lived in eastern Wisconsin all my life, I must confess that I had only heard of two of the seven phrases, neither of which I use. I think that this article needs sources. Benn Newman 23:34, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

As a clarification, I am not saying that they are wrong, just that they need sources. Benn Newman 14:18, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I feel the same way -- I've lived in the South nearly all of the last 50 years and haven't heard most of these terms, except on The Beverly Hillbillies. We need sources. CsikosLo 13:04, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Needs heavy editing or death

A lot of the phrases listed are common in areas that are much wider then those listed on the page. Grip, Cellar, Parlor, Shore, Soda, bookbag, pocketbook,clicker, till, and commode are all in common use through out the US. Plus In the New York Table the entry for wait/stand on line reads to wait or stand on line. Real helpful. This article is in need of some serious editing or should be given a mercy kill. 65.125.163.221 11:09, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

What it needs, as I have been saying for at least the past year if not more, is to be cleared of original research and to be based on cited, reliable sources. Angr (talk) 14:16, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, I've been dogging this page for a while now, and I do plan on doing a massive remodeling sooner or later. This very dialect area classification is questionable. For example, this page should clearly say, "soda is used here, pop is used there..."; "brook is used here, run here, crick there..." And what about bucket vs. pail and many, many others? But yes, I utterly agree, words like pocketbook or parlor are not markedly "regional," and the distribution pattern of, say, till is hard to figure out. As far as I'm concerned all my contributions to this article (and all other articles, for that matter) are backed by sources, not just by my personal experience (which is termed "original research" here...). Additionally, some users misunderstand and think that just because a term is listed under a particular region it is used throughout the whole region concerned; so if they don't recognize a term in their region table they just erase it. JackLumber. 22:25, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

The New York section is absurd. No one talks like that. That table looks like it was compiled from watching actors poorly play New Yorkers fifty years ago. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.38.230.2 (talk) 16:34, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Pacific Northwest Section

I've lived in Oregon for most of my life. I speak with a standard Oregon accent, but I've been around enough to know to some degree how our accent differs from the rest of the US.

But I only recognize three of the non-Chinook Northwest words. Of the Chinook ones, I only know potlatch, and then with a slightly different definition (a feast rather than merely a social gathering.)

This article needs to be cut down and clarified. As noted by others, the lack of citation is a serious issue. If I could edit any way I please, I'd strip the Pacific NW section down to five words despriptions from its current seventeen, as most aren't common. Linguixperiments 15:41, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, the list is misleading. I've never heard of most of the words. Only "pop", "second growth", and "skid road" are in common use, and only "skid road" is particularly Northwest. Isn't "second growth" a technical term? "Spendy", "till", and "davenport" are not from this region, and "Freddy's" may have originated in the company's advertisements. "Peckerwood" means white trash or white supremacist, although it's not a common term. As for the Chinook words, only "potlatch" is universally recognized. "Skookum" and "tyee": people know these words exist but not what they mean. Also, Pacific Northwest implies the climate and culture of western Washington, Oregon, and British Columbia. It is not used for Alaska, Idaho, or Montana, at least by those who live here. Sluggoster (talk) 07:09, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

on the NYC "youse" issue

Maybe ten years ago or so, MTV Europe ran a jingle with a "NYC Taxi Driver" theme. It had a comic-style text bubble saying "Takin' youse where youse wanna go" (or something to that effect, I don't remember the exact wording, but the "youse" was in there). Maybe someone could try to locate that jingle, so we can get the "citation needed" removed? 84.56.148.170 21:24, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

New York City Area

Great list. A few suggestions:

• BICs this should be deleted. even if there's a source, it's archaic and geographically limited
• BOCES: source?
• catty corner: is not a verb, so instead of "to place ..." how about "a diagonal relationship between two buildings or other things"?
• egg cream: archaic and Brooklyn only.
• hack archaic and was also used in other parts of the US.
• ices: "Italian ice" Both are New Yorkisms.
• off the point: archaic?
• on accident: rare.
• regular coffee: means coffee with milk, not sugar.
• spaldeen: archaic?
• stickball: archaic?
• take off your clothes: never heard of it. Any source or example, e.g., in movies or lit?
• two cents plain: never heard of it. archaic?
• upstate: excellent, but excludes Westchester.
• yoo-hoo: archaic
• youse: seldom heard.

Also let's add:

• in the street: in public, either physically located in the space between one building and the building opposite ite.g., "I ran into him in the street," or otherwise laid bare to public view, e.g., "putting your business in the street."
• on the job: in the employ of the police or fire department as a police officer or fire fighter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thefactis (talk • contribs) 04:04, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Some random thoughts

I've lived in the NY area most of my life. Don't think I've ever heard someone say "on accident." At least, not that I can remember.

Egg creams are neither archaic nor confined to Brooklyn. Most any diner on the UWS has them on the menu.

"Take your clothes off" - I've also never heard that.

"Dungarees" - That's pretty rare. And are you sure that that's a regionalism?

Catty-corner: again, are you sure that's local to NY?

Funny thing about Italian Ices - never realized that that was a regionalism - just thought that that's what they are called - until I visited the Phillie area and learned that they are really "water ices." :-) ^^^^ —Preceding unsigned comment added by JamestownArarat (talk • contribs) 03:09, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

the catty corner's out of the bag

Yeah, a *very* quick google search quickly verified my suspicion: New Yorkers may use catty corner, but it's hardly an NY regionalism: See http://www.mtannoyances.com/?p=754 JamestownArarat (talk) 03:22, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Southern Vocabulary: "fair"

I removed the statement about "fair" from the Southern Vocabulary list. It read as follows:

    fair: Used to denote a state of well-being, possibly short for "fairly well" as in a response to the question of "How are you?"

It isn't short for "fairly well." "Fair" means "fair." It's in the dictionary. It doesn't even MEAN "fairly well." It means the same as "so-so" or "middling," pretty much. "Fair" is considerably more negative than "fairly well." http://dictionary.reference.com/search?db=dictionary&q=fair —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.65.204.82 (talk) 05:33, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Accuracy of DC/Baltimore section?

I grew up in Arlington, VA, an inner suburb of DC. Despite having lived there for the first two decades of my life, I recognize almost none of these phrases. We said "fire hydrant", not "fireplug". We said "grocery store" or "supermarket", not "food store". The "driveway" is what stretches from your garage (if you have one) to the street, not a name for a back alley. We ate "Italian ice", not "water ice". We said "take a shower" not "get a shower", and "water" sounded nothing like "wooder".

On the other hand, I've lived in Michigan for the last five years and have heard almost all the phrases from that section. One that could be added: They swear by saying "Jeez oh Petes!" :) -- Tim314 (talk) 18:32, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Pennsylvania and New Jersey in Mid-Atlantic section

For those who don't know, the Mid-Atlantic region is officially defined as the states of Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and New York. The section doesn't say anything about the Philadelphia accent specifically, even though it encompasses a large number of speakers. Even though movies based in Philadelphia have actors talking like New Yorkers, anyone from New York would agree Philadelphians have a unique accent. For those who don't know, not everyone in New Jersey speaks with a New York City accent, and terms like "hoagie" and "water ice" are commonly used where I live in South Jersey. It also should be noted that North Jerseyans speak like New Yorkers and South Jerseyans speak like Philadelphians. -- 68.36.90.149 (talk) 2:17, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Should the Article be Deleted?

I think this article is a mess of original research and unencylopedic. I think it should be deleted. Any feedback on whether to keep or delete before someone takes a formal step down the road to propose deletion? Thanks. -Kgwo1972 (talk) 17:00, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the matter up. I basically agree; the individual articles on U.S. dialects (e.g. Southern American English) provide sufficient information on regional vocabulary, while this one is a grab bag full of OR that is just getting worse by the day. Let's try to prod it to start with; if this fails, we'll take it to AfD. I'm Jack^(Lumber) and I approve this message. 00:37, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

May I suggest two other solutions:

(1) Keep the article in, basically as a switching to the specific Regional ones on US dialects, as Jack suggested.

(2) Strongly request at the top that people document with cites/references.

Bellagio99 (talk) 15:59, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Pointless

Most of the terms found in one region are common throughout the United States. For instance : "Fridge" is listed under Michigan as if "Fridge" was mostly spoken only by people from or in Michigan.

This page needs a better source, or to be deleted.