Talk:Poutine/Archive 5

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Similar dishes

The "similar dishes" section looks to me like original research. There's nothing wrong with it per se (it has references and all that) but I'm just wondering why it's in this article? I don't see any indication that these other fries-and-cheese dishes have any culinary association with poutine: we seem to be inventing the association in the article. Is it of encyclopedic value? Our featured article gumbo doesn't list other types of beef and vegetable stews, for example. I think the section should be removed entirely. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 14:33, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

RfC, take 2: Help us choose a new lead

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

There is a consensus to Y accept version 1 as the lead.Winged Blades^Godric 14:51, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

---

Out of the following proposed leads, which one should be used as the lead of this article? dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 19:35, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

:I set the RFC countdown to 31 days left. Feel free to move the end date to whenever you like if you disagree with the time limit. -- EzekielT ^Talk 04:58, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

Proposal 1

Poutine (/puːˈtiːn/; Quebec French: [put͡sɪn] ⓘ) is a dish originating from the Canadian province of Québec, consisting of French fries and cheese curds topped with a brown gravy. The dish emerged in the late 1950s in the Centre-du-Québec area and has long been associated with the cuisine of Québec. For many years it was negatively perceived and mocked, and even used as a means of stigmatization against Québec society. However, since the mid-2000s poutine has been celebrated as a symbol of Québécois cultural pride, and its rise in prominence led to popularity outside the province, especially in central Canada and the northeast United States. Annual poutine celebrations occur in Montréal, Québec City, and Drummondville, as well as Toronto, Ottawa, Chicago, and Manchester, New Hampshire. Today it is often identified as quintessential Canadian food and has been called "Canada's national dish", though some have commented that this labelling represents misappropriation of Québécois culture. Many variations on the original recipe are popular, leading some to suggest that poutine has emerged as a new dish classification in its own right, just like sandwiches, dumplings, soups, and flatbreads.

Proposal 2

Note: Italics in this proposal signal an optional sentence which could be included or excluded from the final version. State if you want to keep or remove the optional sentence in your vote. Poutine (/puːˈtiːn/; Quebec French: [put͡sɪn] ⓘ) is a Canadian dish originating from the province of Quebec, originally made with French fries and cheese curds topped with a brown gravy. The dish emerged in the late 1950s in the Centre-du-Québec area and has long been associated with Quebec's provincial cuisine. For many years it was negatively perceived and mocked, and even used as a means of stigmatization against Quebec society. However, since the mid-2000s, poutine has become celebrated in Quebec and throughout the rest of Canada, especially in the rest of Central Canada, the Prairies, and the Maritimes. Now a common symbol of cultural pride across Canada, its rise in prominence led to popularity even outside of Canada, especially in U.S. regions such as the northeast United States. Annual poutine celebrations are held in Montréal, Québec City, and Drummondville, as well as Toronto, Ottawa, Chicago, and Manchester, New Hampshire. Today it is often identified as a quintessential Canadian food and has even been called "Canada's national dish", though some have commented that this labeling actually represents misappropriation of Québécois culture by the rest of Canadian culture. Many variations on the original recipe with different toppings and ingredients are now popular, leading some to suggest that poutine has emerged as a new dish classification in its own right, just like sandwiches, dumplings, soups, and flatbreads.

Proposal 3

Poutine (/puːˈtiːn/; Quebec French: [put͡sɪn] ⓘ) is a dish originating from Quebec, Canada, consisting of French fries and cheese curds topped with a brown gravy. The dish emerged in the late 1950s in the Centre-du-Québec area and has long been popular in Quebec cuisine. For many years it was negatively perceived and mocked, and even used as a means of stigmatization against Québec society. However, since the mid-2000s poutine has been celebrated as a symbol of Québecois cultural pride, and its rise in prominence led to popularity outside the province of Québec, especially in central Canada and the northeast United States. Annual poutine celebrations occur in Montréal, Québec City, and Drummondville, as well as Toronto, Ottawa, Chicago, and Manchester, New Hampshire. Today it is often identified as quintessential Canadian food and has been called "Canada's national dish". Many variations on the original recipe are popular, leading some to suggest that poutine has emerged as a new dish classification in its own right, just like sandwiches, dumplings, soups, and flatbreads.

Proposal 4

Poutine (/puːˈtiːn/; Quebec French: [put͡sɪn] ⓘ) is a dish of French fries and cheese curds topped with a brown gravy. The dish emerged in the late 1950s in the Centre-du-Québec area and has long been popular in cuisine of Québec. For many years it was negatively perceived and mocked, and even used as a means of stigmatization against Québec society. However, since the mid-2000s poutine has been celebrated as a symbol of Québecois cultural pride, and its rise in prominence led to popularity outside Québec, especially in central Canada and the northeast United States. Annual poutine celebrations occur in Montréal, Québec City, and Drummondville, as well as Toronto, Ottawa, Chicago, and Manchester, New Hampshire. Today it is often identified as quintessential Canadian food and has been called "Canada's national dish", though some have commented that this labelling represents misappropriation of Québecois culture. Many variations on the original recipe are popular, leading some to suggest that poutine has emerged as a new dish classification in its own right, just like sandwiches, dumplings, soups, and flatbreads.

Proposal 5

Poutine (/puːˈtiːn/; Quebec French: [put͡sɪn] ⓘ) is a Canadian dish originating from the province of Quebec, originally made with French fries and cheese curds topped with a brown gravy. The dish emerged in the late 1950s in the Centre-du-Québec area. For most of its existence, poutine was negatively perceived and mocked, which is in drastic contrast with its later popularity. In the past, poutine was even used as a means of stigmatization against the Quebec society. Today, poutine is celebrated both within Quebec and throughout the rest of Canada. It has also gained popularity in the United States. Poutine festivals are held in Drummondville, Montreal, and Quebec City, as well as in Toronto, Ottawa, Chicago and New Hampshire. Poutine is now served using different toppings and ingredients beyond the original French fries, cheese curds, and brown gravy. Nicolas Fabien-Ouellet, the author of "Poutine Dynamics" (a peer-reviewed article published in the journal CuiZine), suggests that with its increasing variations, poutine has emerged as a new dish classification in its own right, just like sandwiches, dumplings, soups and flatbreads.

Proposal comparison

Here are some links to help you compare any two proposals:

Compare two proposals: 1::2, 1::3, 1::4, 1::5, 2::3, 2::4, 2::5, 3::4, 3::5, 4::5.

For fully rendered, side-by-side comparisons of two or more proposals, go here.

Survey for RfC 2

Please indicate which of the proposals you Support. You may support more than one proposal. Please do not vote to oppose proposals. If you wish to modify a proposal or add a new one, or if you wish to make any other comments, please comment under the "Discussion" heading below.

Proposal 1

1. Support as proposer, per my comments in the exhaustive debate above. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 19:56, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
2. Support Alaney2k (talk) 02:01, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
3. Support without too much overlinking and the accents, this is in English. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 03:16, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
4. Support dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 16:37, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

Proposal 2

1. Support. -- EzekielT ^Talk 04:27, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

Proposal 3

1. Support. @Seeris: you can vote for your own proposal, you know :). -- EzekielT ^Talk 04:27, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

Proposal 4

1. Support for the sake of compromise, although it would be better to just write Quebecois dish in the first sentence. Again, for this vote to be legitimate, there should be a representative part of the vote from Quebecois wikipedians.Axolotlxl (talk) 03:43, 30 November 2017 (UTC) — Axolotlxl (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
2. Support this version (without the serial comma, unnecessary accents, OVERLINKS and REPEATLINK of course) and let the editor who suggested the previous three eat only McDo poutine in perpetuity. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:48, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
3. Support I support this definition because poutine is a québécois dish. Claiming otherwise is a colonial process of cultural appropriation. L'Euguélionne (talk)
   — L'Euguélionne (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
4. Support as proposer, as second choice (proposal 4 is an earlier draft of what became proposal 1). The statement "has long been popular in cuisine of Quebec" is incorrect both grammatically (s/b "in the cuisine of") and factually (poutine wasn't "popular" until the mid-2000s). Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 16:14, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
5. Support dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 16:37, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

Proposal 5

1. Support. -- EzekielT ^Talk 21:33, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
2. Support the second one is also good. I think the cultural appropriation claim needs refs. South Nashua (talk) 16:37, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

Discussion on RfC 2

If you wish to modify a proposal or add a new one, please discuss the changes here first.

Central Canada

Wait a second...

"However, since the mid-2000s poutine has been celebrated as a symbol of Québecois cultural pride, and its rise in prominence led to popularity outside the province of Québec, especially in central Canada and the northeast United States".

Central Canada includes Quebec. We should probably reword the sentence or something. -- EzekielT ^Talk 20:11, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

Maybe this instead?:

"However, since the mid-2000s poutine has been celebrated as a symbol of Quebecois and other Canadians' cultural pride, and its rise in prominence led to popularity outside the province of Quebec, especially in the rest of Central Canada, the Prairies, and even outside of Canada, in the northeast United States". -- EzekielT ^Talk 20:14, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

No, I chose "central Canada" deliberately, meaning the geographic area of Ontario and Quebec, as the article and the sourcing indicate that that is where poutine is popular (judging by where there are annual poutine festivals and prominent poutine restaurants). And I meant to write "a symbol of Quebecois cultural pride" without including [other] Canadians, as the article and the sourcing lead me to interpret that it became popular within Quebec first, then grew in popularity elsewhere. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 20:50, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

But Central Canada includes Quebec, so saying "and its rise in prominence led to popularity outside the province, especially in central Canada" implies that Central Canada is outside of Quebec when Quebec is part of Central Canada. It should really say "and its rise in prominence led to popularity outside the province, especially in Ontario [or the rest of Central Canada]". -- EzekielT ^Talk 21:26, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

Okay, you have a point. I don't want to say Ontario because I don't think that's exactly accurate either. What if we just drop the last part of the sentence, so it just says "and its rise in prominence led to popularity outside the province." ? The next sentence describes where there are poutine festivals, so it's a bit redundant anyway. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 14:51, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

How about "especially in the rest of Eastern Canada and in Western Canada, and even outside of Canada, in the northeast United States"? Eastern Canada includes Ontario, Quebec, the Maritimes, and Newfoundland and Labrador. -- EzekielT ^Talk 15:21, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

IMO, too wordy and not accurate. As I mentioned earlier, the Quebecois version of poutine has not attained anywhere near the same level of familiarity east of Quebec. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 16:41, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

Maybe remove "Western Canada", so it becomes "especially in the rest of Eastern Canada, and even outside of Canada, in U.S. regions such as the northeast United States"? Poutine, as you said, is popular in Toronto (and I agree, I've eaten poutine multiple times in Toronto). -- EzekielT ^Talk 19:48, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

Ivanvector's original proposal

User:Dragfyre All three options are highly problematic in their content and do not reflect at all what was proposed above. There is no need to talk about the origin of the dish both in the first and second sentence. The precise origin is centre-du-quebec area, there is no point to write the province of Quebec or Quebec, Canada, as this is tautological and cumbersome. As User:Seeris said above, for users who claim that Quebec is part of Canadian culture, then only writing Quebec, or Quebecois dish, should not be an issue since it implies Canada according to their view. Also, there must be a reference about the cultural appropriation element. Finally, I explicitly asked for User:Ivanvector original proposition to be placed in the vote, and it was not: “ Poutine (IPA stuff) is a dish of French fries and cheese curds topped with a brown gravy. The dish emerged in the late 1950s in the Centre-du-Québec area and has long been popular in cuisine of Québec. For many years it was negatively perceived and mocked, and even used as a means of stigmatization against Québec society. However, since the mid-2000s poutine has been celebrated as a symbol of Québecois cultural pride, and its rise in prominence led to popularity outside Québec, especially in central Canada and the northeast United States. Annual poutine celebrations occur in Montréal, Québec City, and Drummondville, as well as Toronto, Ottawa, Chicago, and Manchester, New Hampshire. Today it is often identified as quintessential Canadian food and has been called "Canada's national dish", though some have commented that this labelling represents misappropriation of Québecois culture. Many variations on the original recipe are popular, leading some to suggest that poutine has emerged as a new dish classification in its own right, just like sandwiches, dumplings, soups, and flatbreads.”Axolotlxl (talk) 03:20, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

All the proposals were copied and pasted directly from the discussion thread above. I've added a fourth proposal per your request. dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 03:37, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

I can sink my teeth into this suggestion (without the serial comma and unnecessary accents of course). Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:31, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

• Support this version (without the serial comma, unnecessary accents, OVERLINKS and REPEATLINK of course) and let the editor who suggested the previous three eat only McDo poutine in perpetuity. Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:33, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

None of the proposals work for me. They either are WP:OVERLINK violations (particularly when linking Canada in the third proposal) and none link to the Canadian cuisine or cuisine of Quebec articles in the lede sentence, only to have a WP:REPEATLINK at "quintessential Canadian food and has been called "Canada's national dish". Also, all three versions introduce a serial comma at "soups and flatbreads". And there are unnecessary links to redirects for Montréal and Québec City rather than Montreal and Quebec City. The original, "is a Quebecois dish originally made with French fries and cheese curds topped with a brown gravy" is best and completely ignored in any of the proposals. As pointed out, RSes state it's French-Canadian, and our equivalent would be Quebecois. I'll assume this a good faith set of proposals, but too many minor changes that do not belong and no real alternative for the previous version. Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:28, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

• I agree with the points brought by Walter Görlitz.Axolotlxl (talk) 03:38, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

• @Walter Görlitz: I'm confused, did you edit-conflict with yourself? The text that Axolotlxl wrote above your bolded "support" comment (above the apparent edit conflict) is the first draft of what became proposal 1. I think all that changed was adding "originating from the Canadian province of Quebec". Anyway that text now appears to be proposal 4. The accents can go, I wasn't being very careful about checking redirects when I drafted it, and I assumed since it's an article on a French topic we'd use French spelling. Stripping "Quebecois" from the first sentence was to resolve an argument between two editors here (see the history of the page) about whether it should be described as Quebecois or Canadian, both of which are supported by different reliable sources and representing a debate Wikipedia shouldn't take a side in. And the whole serial comma thing is above my head so I don't bother with it, you can go ahead and fix it if you want. The previous lede (the current lede) is the one that is laden with confusing links, repeated statements (it repeats the traditional ingredients twice, for no reason), and a confusing POV skew which chooses to present poutine as only Quebecois while also cherrypicking Fabien-Ouellet's opinion about classification without mentioning his opinion about appropriation at all. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 13:51, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
  • I did not. The time stamps (and edit history) show the order of edits. I had the edit conflict with Axolotlxl. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:45, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

Current lead

@Dragfyre: perhaps we should include the current poutine lead in the RFC?:

"Poutine (/puːˈtiːn/; Quebec French: [put͡sɪn] (About this sound listen)) is a Canadian dish originating from the province of Quebec, originally made with French fries and cheese curds topped with a brown gravy.[1] The dish emerged in the late 1950s in the Centre-du-Québec area.[2] For most of its existence, poutine was negatively perceived and mocked,[3] which is in drastic contrast with its later popularity.[1][4][5] In the past, poutine was even used as a means of stigmatization against the Quebec society.[1][3] Today, poutine is celebrated both within Quebec and throughout the rest of Canada. It has also gained popularity in the United States. Poutine festivals are held in Drummondville, Montreal, and Quebec City, as well as in Toronto, Ottawa, Chicago and New Hampshire. Poutine is now served using different toppings and ingredients beyond the original French fries, cheese curds, and brown gravy.[1][6] Nicolas Fabien-Ouellet, the author of "Poutine Dynamics" (a peer-reviewed article published in the journal CuiZine), suggests that with its increasing variations, poutine has emerged as a new dish classification in its own right, just like sandwiches, dumplings, soups and flatbreads". -- EzekielT ^Talk 05:19, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

We could, although it seems as though most of the contributors to this discussion favour a change. Would you support keeping the current lead as is? dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 16:07, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply :). Yes, I would support keeping the current lead as it is. -- EzekielT ^Talk 17:08, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

Canvassing

Whoever has the unhappy task of closing this mess, please be aware that Axolotlxl has been canvassing support for a Quebecois-exclusive POV at the French Wikipedia: [1] [2]. There are already editors here commenting in support of this POV who have never edited the English Wikipedia (or any Wikipedia) before these notices were posted. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 16:26, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

• I don't see why the fact that I've never edited any Wikipedia discredits my opinion on poutine. Wikipedia is supposed to be an inclusive platform. I think that the fact that you're talking about a minority culture your not part of discredits your opinion even more than the fact that I'm a beginner on Wiki edit. L'Euguélionne (talk) 17:28, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

Extended content

@L'Euguélionne: are you Axolotlxl? -- EzekielT Talk 17:42, 30 November 2017 (UTC) No I’m not Axolotxl… Are you Stephen Harper? ;) L'Euguélionne (talk) 18:26, 30 November 2017 (UTC) @L'Euguélionne: Please review Wikipedia:Single-purpose account, which sheds some light on why your contributions are suspect because you haven't edited Wikipedia anywhere outside this discussion. —C.Fred (talk) 18:59, 30 November 2017 (UTC) Axolotlxl was even removing "Canada" from the infobox and removing the Canadian cuisine template, even though the poutine article is included in the Canadian cuisine template. The user also singled out Quebec as "outside" of Canada in many edits. And the user's only contributions to Wikipedia are to induce a "Quebecois-only" POV. -- EzekielT Talk 17:22, 30 November 2017 (UTC) It's almost a guarantee that L'Euguélionne is Axolotlxl. L'Euguélionne was only just created and the first edit he makes is to Talk:Poutine. QUACK. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 17:49, 30 November 2017 (UTC) Now you’re taking out the conspiracy argument to discredit my opinion. Maybe that’s because you have no argument to refute the fact that poutine is a québécois dish, part of autonomous québécoise culture, and the zeal you put to try to absorb it into canadian culture against the will of Québécois.e.s is nothing else but colonialist reflex. And by the way I’m a woman so do not refer to me as “he”. L'Euguélionne (talk) 18:46, 30 November 2017 (UTC) "I don't see why the fact that I've never edited any Wikipedia discredits my opinion on poutine" - you are [redacted] (Axolotlxl), aren't you! -- EzekielT Talk 18:53, 30 November 2017 (UTC) Still no intellectual arguments out there. Plus, I’ve already told you I’m a woman. I think you should accept the simple fact that most Québécois.e.s believe that poutine should be labelled nothing else than a québécois dish. L'Euguélionne (talk) 19:44, 30 November 2017 (UTC) @L'Euguélionne: If you aren't Axolotlxl, do you know him or were you contacted by him to participate in the vote? -- EzekielT Talk 20:11, 30 November 2017 (UTC) Okay, everyone, that's enough badgering. @EzekielT: I'm quite surprised that you haven't already been blocked for things you've written here today. Stop. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 20:21, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Revisions

I felt the article was pretty close to a GA and did a bit of an overhaul:

• Added some sources where needed and commented-out some things I couldn't source.
• Added secondary sources for a lot of the primary ones, such as festival and restaurant websites. (For the time being, I left the primary sources in but they could be removed.)
• A bit of layout work, summarizing the origins a bit and adding some more history there as an overview.
• Reorganized the sections Variations and Cultural aspect, and added a bit. These might be big enough to consider tighter summaries or cutting out the more trivial factoids.
• General copy edit.

Please ping me and let me know if there are any issues. Thanks. – Reidgreg (talk) 20:16, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Poutine/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Gog the Mild (talk · contribs) 21:09, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

• The last sentence of "Variations" is uncited. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:09, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
  • That paragraph and its last sentence Fast-food combination meals in Canada often have the options to have french fries "poutinized" by adding cheese curds (or shredded cheese in the Prairies and Western Canada) and gravy, or substituting a poutine for a fries side was there before I started the expansion. I'm not sure it's especially notable but didn't want to delete it unilaterally. The original citations in the paragraph were to restaurant websites. I added secondary sources (e.g.: food critics comparing fast-food chain poutines). But I think the restaurant websites are good enough to demonstrate the option of "poutinizing". Should I move the citations down? Would this be considered 'unlikely to be challenged'? Or maybe that sentence should be removed? I think the ubiquitousness of the dish is demonstrated without going into the trivia of menu options.

Point taken. It is GAN. I can live with it.

 Done

• "even used by some to stigmatize Quebec society" Just checking that you wouldn't prefer 'culture' to "society"?
  • I'd prefer 'society'. It's the same phenomenon as how lobster was bycatch eaten by the very poor (particularly fed to slaves), or how kimchi was the 'rotten' condiment linked to poverty and embarrassment, or how garlic was used to disparage Italian immigrants in the United States. It's attacking the people themselves, not just their culture.

 Done

• "it is often identified as quintessential Canadian food" It may be my BritEnglish, but maybe 'identified as a quintessential Canadian food'?
  • Fixed. That probably got messed up when the link was piped Canadian cuisine → Canadian food.

 Done

• "Quebec society"; "Québécois culture". Possibly inconsistent?
  • That is a little tricky, and maybe a touchy subject. The Québécois are recognized as a distinct nationality within Canada who have historically suffered various oppressions by Anglophones. I hope it isn't too confusing to the reader, but I feel the different terms are needed and hope that linking them is good enough; attempting to define the differences would be complex and outside the scope of the article.

    It may be a little confusing to a casual reader, but you are using the terms precisely, so fine. Link "Québécois" to Québécois people. And in the lead.

    I linked to Québécois people in §Variations. It is also linked in the first paragraph of the lead and the first paragraph of §Social mobility

 Done

• "Several restaurants in the area claim to be the inventor of the dish" Optional: 'the originators of the dish'.
  • Sorry for dithering on this. Quite right; a restaurant itself can't invent something. I didn't want to repeat "originator/ed" from the previous sentence. Instead, I swapped the first originated with created as: The dish was created in the Centre-du-Québec area in the late 1950s. Several restaurants in the area claim to be the originators of the dish
• "The dish "poutine" appears on the establishment's 1957 menu"; "in 1964 as "fromage-patate-sauce". Felt to be too long a name, this was later changed to poutine for a cook nicknamed "Ti-Pout" ". I appreciate that this will be what the sources say, but having "Poutine" on a memory at least seven years before the name originated is likely to confuse a reader. Possibly an editorial comment on this? (Given what is said under "Etymology" I am very doubtful about the cook's role.)
  • Ummm... the above quoted sections are about two different restaurants which each claim to have originated the dish.
  • I've no problem with adding an editorial note. For the cook Ti-Pout, Le Roy Jucep is a curbside drive-in diner which takes up most of a block. Customers park, and servers hurry back and forth taking and delivering orders. The story goes that servers made up a rhyme "Ti-Pout makes the pudding" (translated). When later polled about the name to be put on the menu for the popular item, the staff suggested poutine for Ti-Pout. My impression is that this was an inside joke for the staff rather than necessarily honouring the cook as the inventor.
  • I liked having a bit there about the different claims, and I have no reason not to believe that the dish was developed independently. It actually seems to be a customer-invented dish, which gives it a certain charm, as a dish which just emerged from the zeitgeist without really being invented by anyone in particular.

    I added an endnote for their claim to the name poutine at Le Roy Jucep.

Very good. And a nice use of footnotes.

 Done

• "Customers would mix cheese curds with their fries, which was added to the menu." Grammatically this doesn't quite work for me.

• • How about: Customers would mix cheese curds with their fries, a combination which was added to the menu. One option with gravy was called the "Mixte".

Works for me. (I am now feeling hungry.)

now updated in article.

 Done

• "a country snack food in Quebec's dairy region due to the narrow freshness window" Optional: comma after region.
  • A bit was added to that sentence and it does look too long/complex. For the full sentence For decades it remained a country snack food in Quebec's dairy region[,] due to the narrow freshness window of one or two days for cheddar cheese curds. What would you think about removing "one or two days for"? This is explained in more detail in §Recipe, and I don't feel it needs to be stated here.

Agreed. (And I should have realised that.)

 Done

• "Poutine arrived at the Ashton Snack Bar food truck in Quebec City in 1969." I must be missing something; what is special about this snack bar that it is singled out for mention?
  • The editor who added that didn't explain, but Chez Ashton is a Quebec-city based burger chain, and would seem to be the first chain to carry poutine. Maybe I should add a little to explain that it's more than a food truck, and remove the Burger King mention? I'd also like to remove the McDonalds and Harvey's mentions in that paragraph. (Burger King was the first big chain to experiment with poutine in Montreal–Sherbrooke outlets; other major chains joining a decade later were just following the trend; it also broke-up the original statement in a way which might be misleading.)

    That all makes sense to me. Dump the late comers, give Burger King a brief mention and expand the bit on Chez Ashton. Link Chez Ashton.

     Done

• "In the early 1970s, La Banquise began serving poutine in Montreal" Is this the first record of poutine being sold in Monreal? If so, could that be mentioned; if not, why is it notable?
  • My source says La Banquise was one of the places that gave poutine its start in Montreal, but doesn't definitively say it was the first. It was likely the first successful Montreal restaurant to serve poutine, as it's still in business 45+ years later, and did much to develop and popularize the dish (mentioned later in §Variations). Montreal is important to the story of poutine, as that's where it was developed and legitimized. Also, being a world-class city, Montreal is in a better position to spread the dish to the rest of the world.
• "spread across Canada and internationally" Optional: A mention of a couple of the non-Canadian outlets and/or countries serving poutine would be nice.
  • It's later mentioned that it's been served in London, Paris, Washington DC, Chicago. It's also served in Thailand. Do you list world class cities, cities known for cuisine, distant or unexpected places? I would find it very difficult to determine reasonable criteria and then defend them when editors inevitably try to list more and more.

Umm. OK.

 Done

• "some attribute it to the English word pudding"; "and a slang word for "pudding" " Confusing duplication. Possibly concentrate everything on the origin(s) of the name under "Etymology"?
  • There is some duplication and I struggled a bit with the layout in the early article, trying to order information so as to provide enough definition to understand what follows. My feeling is that the claims for 'inventing' poutine include both the basic recipe and the name. But a full treatment of the name needed its own section. I could put §Etymology first, but I felt it was important to know what poutine was before discussing its name. (BTW: I originally had Etymology as a L2 section; another editor changed it to a L3 section within §History.) I think that was my own effort at summary style, that §Origins answers enough of the what/where/when to give context to what follows. – Reidgreg (talk) 00:33, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

It looks ok, but I need to give the whole thing another read through: tonight or tomorrow.

More to follow.

Gog the Mild (talk) 17:26, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

• "In the basic recipe for poutine, french fries are covered with fresh cheese curds, and topped with brown gravy.[20] In a traditional Quebec poutine" Is "the basic recipe for poutine" the same as what is "In a traditional Quebec poutine"? If so, could this be made clearer? If not, ditto.
  • Would "authentic" be better? Or maybe "as served in the Centre-du-Québec region"? That's what I was trying to convey: the traditional/authentic/original/unadulterated Centre-du-Québec Québécois version.

    OK. But even reading the recipe again, I fail to see how the first sentence is not a summary of it. If you are trying to draw a distinction between "the basic recipe for poutine" and "a traditional Quebec poutine" I think that you have over-complicated it. I think that you need to rework it somehow, or just lose the first sentence.

    Removed.

 Done

• "Freshness and juiciness of the curds is essential, as air and moisture seep out of the curds over time" The "as" part doesn't explain the essentiality of the first part, just the mechanism. Could the wording be tweaked?
  • Freshness and juiciness of the curds is essential, as air and moisture seep out of the curds over time. This alters their acidity level and causes proteins to lose their elasticity, and the curds to lose their complex texture and squeakiness. How about: Freshness and juiciness of the curds is essential. Air and moisture seep out of the curds over time, which alters their acidity level and causes proteins to lose their elasticity, causing the curds to lose their complex texture and characteristic squeaky sound when chewed.
• "squeakiness" Qu'est-ce que c'est?
  • The "squeakiness" is literally that: fresh cheese curds make a squeaking sound as they are chewed. (Cheese curd is also known as squeaky cheese.) The fresher they are, the louder the squeak. Something to do with their elasticity and the tiny air bubbles. One source compares it to rubbing balloons together. Another states that really fresh poutine is loud enough that he has to turn up his car radio while driving (though I hate to think of someone driving while eating something as hot and messy as poutine).

    I've added another footnote for the "squeakiness".

• "with a hint of pepper, or a sauce brune" Should the comma be a semi-colon?
  • Good catch, fixed.

 Done

• Link Maritime.
  • Another good catch. Done.

 Done

• "Many places also offer vegetarian gravy" Optional: "places" -> 'stores'
  • How about "stores and restaurants" or "groceries and restaurants"?

    Fine. (The first sounds better to my Brit ear, but your choice.)

    Good, done

• "A thin gravy allows all the fries to be coated" Optional: "A" -> 'The'.
  • Done.

 Done

• "the fries so that they maintain their heat." Optional: "maintain" -> 'retain'.
  • Great, done!

 Done

• Details of the curds seems to be split, and partially duplicated, under "Recipes" second bullet point and in the final paragraph of the section.
  • I was uncertain about where to split that information, which seemed to go into too much detail for the bullet point (unless maybe I shoved it to the right as a second bullet indent). Would it be any better to move from "Freshness and juiciness of the curds..." down to begin the paragraph "The curds should be less than a day old"?
  • Would it be any better to change "amount used" to "proportion used"?

Fine now.

"amount used": your choice. "amount used" reads fine to me.

 Done

• "dynamic contrasts" What is this? I have no idea what dynamic contrasts are in the context of food. I suspect that many other readers wouldn't. Could you give a few words of explanation what the "dynamic" element is?
  • I guess that's another missing article. From Poutine Dynamics: The dynamic aspects of poutine are found in every bite. Robert J. Hyde and Steven A. Witherly suggest that “the most highly palatable foods are likely to have higher levels of dynamic contrast (moment-to-moment sensory contrast from the ever-changing properties of foods manipulated in the mouth).” The sensory contrast they refer to relies heavily on texture, but temperature, viscosity and irritation (from spices, acids, or carbonation) are also cited factors. Think of how unappealing a warm and soggy bowl of cereal is—that is, they argue, mainly because of its low dynamic contrast. In their article, ice cream, cold carbonated beverages and melted cheese on pizza are used to detail the type of foods that have a high level of dynamic contrast. So it's how the crisp-hot fries contrast with their fluffy interior and with the chewy-warm-squeaky curds. Dynamic is how these contrasts change during chewing and other oral manipulation, while the flavours merge and evolve as the fries and curds combine with the gravy.
  • How about: The texture, temperature and viscosity of poutine's ingredients differ and continuously change as the food is consumed, making it a dish of high dynamic contrasts. (Does the sentence itself explain the term?)

    It does. Excellent. (But I think that it should be either 'highly dynamic contrasts' or 'high and dynamic contrasts', but I am not going to push it.)

    Okay. I used the former. (Note: "dynamic contrasts" is used again three paragraphs further down.)

 Done

• "Strengthening these contrasts" Similar to above.

 Done

• "a distinctly different experience eating the poutine". Perhaps 'a distinctly different experience while eating the poutine'.
  • I earlier had experience of eating the poutine, and it's used two paragraphs up. I put the of back in.

    "experience of eating poutine/the poutine" in two places. Anything else?

 Done

• "Some eliminate the cheese" Some whats? Chefs?
  • Some recipes, I guess. Weird. Fixed.

 Done

• "mozzarella cheese may be an unavoidable alternative" Perhaps "unavoidable" -> 'acceptable'?
  • I dithered on that word for a while. The thing is, acceptable to whom? It certainly wouldn't be acceptable in Centre-du-Québec. People in certain regions who've never had poutine with fresh curds won't know the difference, so it seems acceptable out of ignorance or expediency. It mentions Saskatchewan, but the source for that indicates that the better restaurants there use curds, not mozzarella. So to me it seems more like good poutine vs. cheap fast food, rather than a true regional variation. One source, a national newspaper, called mozzarella versions "imposters" of the dish.

Acceptable in context. Ie to those paying for it. As opposed to saying "Skip the curds" or buying a pizza. Every fast food outlet does things which a chef would shudder at; they still sell the result. Ie it is acceptable to a person deciding whether to pay good money for it. And, IMO, it is clearly not "unavoidable" - they could avoid it by not offering the product - as the sentence seems to acknowledge by using the word "may".

Okay. Since it's already qualified with may, I see your point. Changed → acceptable.

• "Galvaude" and "Dulton". Just a query, the upper case letters look odd.
  • Agreed. It should either be non-italic capitalized as a proper noun or italic non-capitalized as a foreign word. The source used the former, and I don't see them throwing extra capitals around, so I'm inclined to do the same (they may be named after a place or person).

 Done

• "Variations" has too many short paragraphs.
  • I moved the nutrition sentence (would have liked to have more but there are too many variables) up to the mozzarella paragraph since it's talking about substituting a basic ingredient (potatoes). The other short paragraph is about gourmet poutines; I don't see an easy one to combine it with.

    It needs running in with the previous paragraph. And "This is a pre-2000 trend" reads to me as if you mean it had ended by 2000. If that is what you mean, fine. If you mean it started before 2000 and still continues the something like 'This trend originated pre-2000 and is credited ...'

    You're right, they're still doing it. Fixed the pre-2000, and added a little to the gourmet part.

For me "Poutineries ..." and "Gourmet poutine ..." still need running together, but it's not a GAN matter, so:

 Done

More to follow.

Gog the Mild (talk) 10:18, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

• I am not convinced that Cheeseburger is a reasonable addition to See also.
  • When did that get added?!! Removed.

 Done

• In politics: The Bush anecdote seems tangential to me, although arguably acceptable. However, it seems long; what would you feel about trimming it a little.
  • Talking to Americans was perhaps the most popular segment on a very popular national television programme at the time. It was one of those "water cooler moments" that got a lot of people talking about poutine in the context of Canadian identity. Unfortunately, I don't have any sources that get into the cultural impact of this as it relates to the popularity and acceptance of poutine, but will remain on the lookout.

OK.

"and Bush pledged to "work closely" with Mr. Poutine" The actual candidate Bush said this?

Google "bush talking to americans" (links would be copyvio). Not an exact quote, but yes. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 12:53, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

Thanks. I took "asked several people" to mean several people in a street in a Canadian city. If in fact the "several people" were more notable, could this be briefly flagged up?

I believe Talking to Americans was always taped in the United States. (Americans visiting Canada might be more knowledgable about Canada, so the gag wouldn't work as well.) This was some time before The Daily Show became popular and politicians weren't yet on guard for roving satirists. I found a source with the full quote and added it with the |quote= parameter. I can't really blame Bush for this. He's there before his own national press, fighting for an election, and some fresh-faced kid from the CBC tells him that the Canadian Prime Minister said "Bush looked like the man who should lead the free world into the twenty-first century" and asked for his response. I mean, that kind of endorsement, of course he's going to milk it. Bush's response: "I appreciate his strong statement [...] He understands I believe in free trade. He understands I want to make sure our relations with our most important neighbor to the north of us is strong. And we’ll work closely together." And hey, he knew that Canada was north of the United States. – Reidgreg (talk) 11:23, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

That judgement reminds me of Bush on Trump: "Hey! I don't look so bad now, do I?"

The issue could be resolved by replacing "several people" with 'several politicians' or 'several prominent people' or some such.

I don't have a source which identifies the earlier interviewees, so "several people" is the best I can do. Well, could say "several Americans" if that isn't repetitive.

• In politics: The role of poutine the foodstuff in the voter suppression article seems non-existent to me. Would your care to demonstrate a connection?
  • Nope. I improved the references on that but agree that there really isn't anything there that's notable for this article. It's a weird story. I've moved it to the talk page in case something ever does come of it.

 Done

– Reidgreg (talk) 00:33, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

That's it from me for now. I'll let you come back to me on these and then have another look through.Gog the Mild (talk) 17:01, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

@Gog the Mild: Thanks! I made some small changes in line with your recommendations, and mixed in some comments above. – Reidgreg (talk) 00:33, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

I'm getting an error with the last reference in the new Notes section. (I tried commenting it out and then the next reference up gave the same error.) Not sure what I did wrong but will try to sort it out. – Reidgreg (talk) 11:23, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

Fixed. – Reidgreg (talk) 12:05, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

Looking good. A handful of outstanding points above in blue. If marked as "Optional", they are; but if you could acknowledge them, at least I know that you have noticed them. Plus:

Link Charles Michel and Justin Trudeau.

Who is this Justin Trudeau person? Anyone of note?

Gog the Mild (talk) 19:16, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

Ah, I overlooked that. For a PM, he's been a bit of a rock star. Well, a Canadian rock star. Linked. I added "counterpart" to the Belgian PM to clarify.

This now reads, IMO, very well. You have done a good job of getting it in shape. Some further thoughts:

• "may be unable to sell enough curds for a bulk rate to justify the expense of daily deliveries." I know what you mean, but does it not read better if you remove "for a bulk rate"?

  It made sense as I was writing it, but I suppose readers don't need that spelled out, especially when two sentences down it talks about 100 kg orders at busy poutineries. Removed.

• "continuously in batches every few hours". Optional: remove "continuously".
• "New variations are continually introduced." Another pedantic point. Optional: "continually" → 'frequently'?

  Agreed, fixed.

• Québécois in the sense of Quebec French is over linked.

  Removed overlinking; (linked once in lead [pronunciation] and §Etymology)

• " Montreal's Le Gras Dur served a "pot poutine" with a gravy that included hemp protein, hemp seeds and hemp oil, served with ..." Optional: "served" twice in a few words. Perhaps replace the first with 'offered'?

  I suppose "plated with" is too formal? I changed the second "served" to "offered". The source uses offered first then served, hopefully this isn't too close but there's only so many ways to state it.

• "poutine has long been Quebec's adored junk food before spreading across" Should "has" be 'had'?

  Hmmm. It is still "adored junk food" but you're right, the structure of the sentence is speaking of that in the past. Changed to "had".

• "made inroads into proper culinary circles" Is there a more precise, and less judgemental, word than "proper"?

  Point taken. Higher also sounds bad that way, though that's the literal translation of haute cuisine. Established, elite, high-class, high-quality... Established or formal seem the most neutral. Maybe in the vein of critical? A little wordy but I tried "with food critics and established culinary circles".

• "Poutine served as a comfort food for the local community" Very optional: "served", while entirely correct, in this context can confuse (I struggle not to read it as a badly expressed ' was served as'.

  Changed: served as &rarr: was.

• "to disidentify with the dish". In Brit English that would be 'from', not "with".

  Good catch. Fixed.

• "as a Canadian dish instead of Québécois dish" 'of a Québécois dish'?

  Yipes! Fixed.

• again optional, but I found many of the sentences in Cultural aspects to look as if randomly allocated to paragraphs. Eg, perhaps group all of those relating to competitions together? Etc.

  It had been arranged by topic (eg: all the festivals in one paragraph, the national polls in one paragraph) then was reordered chronologically. You can see the previous layout in this revision. That's an interesting idea to group the food-eating competition and the Iron Chef competition together; they're very different, but they are competitions. I'll try reorganizing the section later today (for a trial). – Reidgreg (talk) 11:24, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

  Okay, I've posted a preliminary reorganization on the talk page at Talk:Poutine#Reorganization of §Cultural aspects. I noticed that Justin Trudeau is mentioned there and linked his article, so we can unlink the second mention. Let me know what you think. – Reidgreg (talk) 13:15, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Gog the Mild (talk) 22:21, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

OK. All good bar the Bush anecdote. The New Yorker article you cite only mentions Bush being asked the question. This CBC article goes into a bit of detail, and mentions Michigan state governor John Engler being asked as well. It seems to me that there is sufficient RS to support "asked several people" → 'asked several US politicians, including then presidential candidate George W Bush ...'. This would make the scenario clearer for readers arriving at the article uninformed as to any background. What do you think? Gog the Mild (talk) 21:04, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Okay, I added the source and changed: asked several people → asked US politicians. I'm not comfortable with "several" when we've only identified two.

We haven't really talked about the lead. It was the subject of multiple RfCs because of the controversial cultural appropriation business, and so I pretty much left it alone. It's been copyedited and the inline lists shortened slightly (just giving a few major festivals covering Quebec, Ontario and the US; and two examples of dish classifications). It's a little shorter than I normally see but it seems to adequately cover the major points of the article and is nicely focused. – Reidgreg (talk) 14:18, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

I've been kind of watching this review for when the lead might come up, as I was one of the key participants in those RfCs (which were really one long drawn-out RfC with many subheadings). It's a long read, but the whole thing really boiled down to whether or not it was necessary to specify in prose that Quebec is a Canadian province, and whether or not Quebec being a Canadian province meant that poutine should be described as Canadian rather than Quebecois. The first part was interesting, but the second part was really a culturally insensitive ideological argument, and IMO that's what led to it being such a long process. It's interesting that the ultimate consensus was to use "proposal 1", but over time the lead has migrated so that it now more closely resembles "proposal 4", without any significant objection. Anyway, I think the current lead reflects the spirit of those discussions. Unless there's something that's standing in the way of a GA, it's probably fine. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 15:31, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

From my point of view, everything is covered, GANwise, and the nominator has, IMO, done an excellent job of knocking this article into shape. Re the lead, it is arguably a little brief, but it meets the GA criteria. Given its history, I have no intention of poking at it. I will be promoting. I hope that someone is thinking about FA; assuming they are, when it gets to FAC give me a ping.

Good Article review progress box Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

Voter suppression scandal

Removed this from the article as it seemed tangental to the topic during a GA review, but preserving it here in case there is any interest in moving it to another article. Please see the history of this article for attribution. – Reidgreg (talk) 00:37, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

In the 2011 Canadian federal election voter suppression scandal, there were reports of misleading automated phone calls in Guelph, Ontario, which directed voters to the wrong polling stations. An Elections Canada investigation found the calls were made through a disposable cellphone registered to a "Pierre Poutine" of the false address "Separatist Street" in Joliette, Quebec. The source of the calls was traced to an Internet address which seemed to correspond to the Guelph campaign office of Conservative candidate Marty Burke.

References

Nitpicking

"Some restaurants in Montreal offer poutine with such additions as bacon, or Montreal-style smoked meat, although these are not as common."

I guess it's true that the variations are not as common as Original Recipe Poutine, but most places in Montreal (Mamma's Pizza, Alto's, and so forth) sell a number of variations. This one place, La Banquise, has around twenty kinds, and it's open 24 hours, so it must be makin' some cash.

There's also a vegetarian version made with pepper sauce instead of meat gravy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.70.121.79 (talk) 12:40, October 4, 2008‎ (UTC)

Reorganized variations. Reidgreg (talk) 13:11, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Preparation

I changed the wording of the preparation, which described it as a "mixture." Although it may end up that way (as shown in that nasty and unappetizing photo), it is not normally prepared by "mixing" per se.

Agreed, thanks. – Reidgreg (talk) 13:11, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Removed from the article to here

From the Tourist office of Nice, I received the following explanation: "La poutine, alevins de ppoisson pêchés uniquement dans la Baie des Anges aux mois de février et mars, se cuisinent en omelette ou en beignets."

Qui connait le mot allemand ou bien le term en latin pour cette espèce de poission? Merci de répondre au: transactor@compuserve.com. Merci.

That relates to a different topic. Thanks for removing it. – Reidgreg (talk) 13:11, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Picture change

++ I did change the tag of the actual picture (06/06/04) because it said "Poutine with gravy" and poutine necessarily refers to gravy. This change is made to avoid confusion.

Can we change the picture? I like poutine very much, but seeing the keyboard in the backgroud just doesnt fit in. Can we change the picture for somehting better? The poutines' fine. Its not his fault lol paat

i also think the poutine in the pic is nothing special as a sample. i would suggest http://evilloop.com/poutine.jpg hehehe i always use this pic when i'm talking about it with people online. i don't remember where i picked it up tho. zenzizi

The picture should be changed because the Poutine in this picture looks disgusting. It does not do the dish justice.

I take it the present picture is acceptable? – Reidgreg (talk) 13:11, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Creator

One of the two believed creator of the poutine which was cited (Jean-Pierre Roy) was invented in this restaurant http://www.jucep.com/ He is believed to have really invented the poutine as we know it with the three main ingredients (rather than Fernand Lachance was only mixing fries with gravy and offering cheese as another item). The patent of the poutine can be seen at this restaurant. I'll translate what he says : He opened his restaurant in 1964 and started offering the popular mix of fries with gravy until they started to sell cheese from near company. So customers started to mix cheese the the saucy fries so they added it to the menu. It was first call the "fromage-patate-sauce" (cheese-potatoes-sauce) and they were the first to sell it that way in Quebec. there is an english text on the site that explains it all and there is also a better picture.

For our waitresses, running in and out of the restaurant with their trays, the "fromage-patate-sauce" took too much time to write down. Many, many years ago, our grandmothers named "pouding" (pudding) any kind of mixture they would prepare. After much usage, the word sounded like "poutine". There was an inside joke about this word. We had a cook named Ti-Pout. The employees teased him by saying : Ti-Pout makes "Poutine" ! The word stuck so we decided to eliminate the three words "fromage-patate-sauce" and shorten it to "poutine" and that is what it is still called today.

Second you all should know there is a big rivality between Drummonville and Warwick (about 70 km apart) on who invented the poutine. I dont know why you mention Victoriaville though as Victoriaville is just the biggest city near Warwick but Victoriaville has nothing to do with inventing the poutine.

you guys should make the change i'm french canadian my english is not so good and linking and all..i'm not that good

Julien August 18th, 2006

I've tried to summarize this (or what reliable secondary sources have reported of this) and also included a footnote which gives a little more detail. It's a really interesting story and adds a lot of local colour to the history of poutine, but we've got to use encyclopedic tone for what appears in the body of the article (there's a little more leeway with the footnote). – Reidgreg (talk) 13:11, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Other

I made a quick edit to the line "When ordering a fast food combination meal in eastern Canada, you can pay extra to get your french fries replaced with a poutine." I removed the "eastern", since I'm in western Canada and pretty much every fast food place I've been to offers this option.

I'm not sure this really needs to be in the article; we know it is widespread in Canada. – Reidgreg (talk) 13:11, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Fisktin

I'm from Sweden and have never encountered or heard of the 'fisktin' that is referred to in the 'similar dishes'-section. A google search on 'fisktin' in Swedish renders three (3) hits, non of which is a menu. It should probably be sourced or removed.

Appears to have been removed, thanks. – Reidgreg (talk) 13:11, 6 June 2019 (UTC)