Talk:Porfiry Chanchibadze

Which division was 120th Rifle Regt in on 22 June 1941

Kges1901 can you find solid confirmation that 120th Rifle Regiment was part of 39th Rifle Division "Pacific Ocean" in the Far East on 22 June 1941? Buckshot06 (talk) 10:39, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

• Not at all, the 120th is recorded in the perechen as the 120th Motor Rifle Regiment of the 69th Motor Rifle Division (also designated 69th Motorized Division). The 69th became the 107th Tank Division, and was formerly the 3rd Kolkhoz Rifle Division, so this makes sense. It seems likely that Chanchibadze spent several years with the same division. The history of the 39th Rifle Division on Pamyat Naroda shows the division with the 50th, 199th and 254th Rifle Regiments on 29 June. Kges1901 (talk) 12:00, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

108th Tank Division

• Cheers. Fixed. Next tangle then. In the 69th RD article I added some notes from Stumbling Colossus several years ago. Glantz seems to suggest hat 107 Tank/Motorized was split into both 107 and 108 Tank Divisions. The Ru article for 108 Tank Division doesn't seem to follow this, suggesting 108 TD was formed from a regiment of 59th Tank Division. Be nice if you could take a look at both pages. No urgency whatsoever. Wreck Smurfy fyi. Cheers Buckshot06 (talk) 22:05, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

• Yevgeny Drig, citing exact NKO orders, says that 108th TD was formed from the 119th Tank Regiment of the 59th Tank Division, the version quoted by ruwiki. Documents of the division on Pamyat Naroda support this, as they state the division was formed at Kubinka on 10 July 1941. Looking at the page in Stumbling Colossus you're mentioning, I don't think this is definitive as neither of Glantz' sources draw a link between the 108th and 69th. The Corps and Divisional Commanders directory that he cites only says that the 69tb became the 107th, nothing about what the 108th was formed from. Kges1901 (talk) 23:51, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

• According to Sharp, "The Deadly Beginning", pp. 45-46, the 59th TD, in 2nd Red Banner Army, did have a 119th TR, but in mid-July 1941 the division was disbanded and "at least one of its tank regiments helped to form 301st, 356th, and 362nd separate Tank Battalions" which remained in the Army. On p. 48 he states that the 108th was formed in July 1941 and was in Bryansk Front in early October with a mix of older T-40s plus T-34s and KV-1s "straight from the factories." It lost most of its armor during the German attack on Oryol and its cadre was redesignated as the 108th Tank Brigade in December. This is confirmed in Dunn's Stalin's Keys to Victory, p. 84. Neither source mentions any preceding formation that it was formed from. Wreck Smurfy (talk) 01:44, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

• OK. I have removed "Glantz, Stumbling Colossus, appears to indicate that the [69] division was split into both the 107th and 108th Tank Divisions. [Glantz, Stumbling Colossus, University Press of Kansas, Lawrence, KS, 1998, pp. 222, 231, and associated endnotes at pp. 324-325 (notes 47-49).] Endnotes to Glantz's 1998 book indicate the 108th Tank Division was in combat with the Bryansk Front circa 28 August 1941 to 4 September 1941, and on 28 August it had a strength of 62 tanks (5 KVs, 32 T-34s, and 25 T-40s). [Glantz 1998, page 325, note 49.]" What we do with this is dependent on further discussion. I could start a stub for 108th Tank Brigade and put the 108 TD history in there. Buckshot06 (talk) 02:45, 11 July 2022 (UTC)