Talk:On the Murder of Eratosthenes

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The paragraphs seem too long and involved. Can these be broken up into more digestible chunks? Jlg4104 (talk) 16:30, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

The wife wasnt the perpetrator

The Perseus text makes it clear that the wife was initially innocent, and far from her persuing a tryst with Eratosthenes, it was the other way around. The participles ἐπιτηρῶν meaning he was looking out for (the maid) and προσφέρων (applying, or here, sending) are both masculine. So Eratosthenes, who had seen the wife at Euphiletus' mother's funeral began looking out for her maid walking in the marketplace and after sending messages (by her to the wife) he corrupted her. A1jrj (talk) 11:39, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Without wanting to come across as defending the current text of the article too much, as there is plenty of room for improvement there, a few general points:

1. In general, classical Athenian legal speeches are not known for their strict adherence to facts and truth as they would be seen in a modern courtroom or encyclopedia. Just because Euphiletos says something does not necessarily make it true.
2. Euphiletos is on trial for his life. His defence strategy is to make Eratosthenes look as disreputable as possible. Taking everything that Euphiletos says, especially things which appear to condemn Eratosthenes, at face value is not necessarily wise.
3. Even given the above, Euphiletos still says things which, far from defending his wife, actually accuse her. At 1.10, for instance, we hear that "I never suspected, but was simple-minded enough to suppose that my own was the chastest wife in the city." Eratosthenes may have initiated the liason, according to Euphiletos' story, but Euphiletos is perfectly clear that his wife was complicit.

Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 19:44, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

I think 1 & 2 are not relevant - the article describes the situation as presented in the speech, not whatever actually happened (particularly given that, if Porter is right, nothing ever actually happened). 3 is true, but the speech is clear that he seduces her and then she willingly organises a tryst. "how she encountered the young Eratosthenes at her mother-in-law's funeral and arranged a tryst with him with the aid of Euphiletos' servant girl." could quite easily be changed to "how she encountered the young Eratosthenes at her mother-in-law's funeral, after which he seduced her and arranged a tryst with the aid of Euphiletos' servant girl." It's not appreciably longer and it's more accurate. Furius (talk) 23:50, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

I think the relevance of 1 and 2 is that the article needs to be clear that Euphiletos claims that Eratosthenes seduced his wife. There is an important distinction between the things that Euphiletos says in the speech and what actually happened, and just because we cannot know what actually happened doesn't mean that we should conflate the two.

At any rate, I have edited the section titled "Summary" to hopefully clarify things; I have also changed "servant" to "slave" throughout, as the girl in question would have been a slave, and more modern translations (e.g. Gagarin's in Speeches in Athenian Law) reflect this. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 17:57, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Sources

The quotations are vague here. [5] points to an whole article from Porter with 27 pages. [5] e for example is a direct quote and it ist not shown on which of these many pages it is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.230.194.202 (talk) 13:11, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Ancient Greece

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 17 January 2023 and 28 April 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Pkourk (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Ejohnson0118 (talk) 03:06, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

"law on murder" section

I have removed this section, cited to Walter Woodburn Hyde (1918) "The Homicide Courts of Ancient Athens", as the source does not support the claims made and the connection to the actual topic of this article, the speech on the murder of Eratosthenes, seems to be WP:SYNTH. Specific points I have issue with include:

• The judicial system of Ancient Greece was a unique one. Law and order in Ancient Greek times were not decided based on set laws of the state, but based on customs. Customs of which judges and officials will declare whether an act should be penalized or not. The source does not call this system unique, but rather that this practice was "like other primitive communities". At any rate, this is a description of the system in "early Athens", not the time of Demosthenes: "later ... codified law came into existence ... in the days of Draco" (i.e. several centuries before Demosthenes!)
• In this stories particular case, the judicial system could seem hypocritical in its prosecution protocol this isn't in the source, and is the kind of claim which absolutely needs to be cited and attributed.
• in this case with Euphiletos, if he was to notify friends and or members of his community, before hand, as liable witnesses, then this case would be considered justifiable homicide source says nothing about requiring witnesses

Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 11:16, 25 April 2023 (UTC)