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interesting connection between nairs and rajputs!

i came across an interesting paragraph in logan's " malabar manual"-rajputs in malabar.

" Of Rajputs, or foreign kshatriyas, there are in malabar ( census 1881) only 362 all told. The families of the Kottayam and parappanad chieftains used to be called the Puranatt( foreign) raja.

the parapannad family supplies consorts to the ranis of travancore , and also form similar connections with the families of chieftains of malabar. they follow the marumakkathayam line of inheritance".

it appears as the rajputs/ foreign kshatriyas would have been assimilated into samanta kshatriya/ kiriyathil families.it also proves that nairs have been an inclusive community... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vivwiki (talk • contribs) 11:18, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Foreign Kshatriyas were assimilated to the Nair community in small numbers during 17th-19th century. Rajputs, Marathas and Bunts (Malabar), Arya Vysyas (Palghat), Konkani speaking Brahmins and Vaishyas (Cochin), Iyers, Vellalars, Maravars (Travancore) were all assimilated to various Nair clans in smaller numbers. Suresh.Varma.123 (talk) 12:12, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Totally agree with you. My own ancestors (meenachil karthas) belonged to a royal lineage which migrated to Kerala from Mewar, who were Rajputs, on reaching Travancore, they were assimilated into Nair fold (Kartha) and had the previlage to rule a kingdom which is as big as a 'panchayath' these days. Their women were married to Namboothiris and men married illathu nairs, till around 50 years back they used to conduct certain rituals and customes which were totally unknown to the kerala kings. They were strict vegetarians, had vaishnava 'U' tilak on their large forehead, had colorful funeral processions, singh surname etc though they had no sacred thread. Today noone follows these rituals and the new genration remains just 'Nairs' with Nair,Menon and Kartha surnames (the earlier title of 'Damodara simhar' is non-existent).This goes to show where the Nairs were positioned in the society and remains a source of truth unlike the many versions we get from authors who distorted facts to suite their vested interests.Keraleeyan

At first I thought you were joking. But when I read the District Gazeteer for Kottayam (Pages:34-35), I found that what you were saying was a historic fact. Anyway, I've started the article here: Meenachil Kartha. Suresh.Varma.123 (talk) 16:54, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks a lot Suresh for starting this article. In fact I was waiting to collect more data before I could start this. The content you have added are correct and some of them were added by me in the ‘Kartha’ article. I should be able to further enhance this article once I get a chance to visit Kerala next time.

In fact after the onslaught by the Travancore, they were Kings sans kingdom and survived on the ‘pension’ allotted by Travancore and later by the Indian government after forming the Indian state. During this period, the Karthas turned to ayurveda and were famous physicians (vaidyar) in Palai.Keraleeyan —Preceding undated comment added 06:21, 21 April 2010 (UTC).

Some doubts..... As per the district gazeteer, the invasion of Meenachil occurred in 1754 and Marthanda Varma was responsible for it. The 3-4 survivors traveled North and were granted assylum by the Zamorin. But the survivors had to flee again in 1766 when Hyder Ali invaded Malabar and sought assylum in Travancore (Dharma Raja was the king). It was only in 1766, that they were allotted pension. Hope to get more info from you after your Kerala trip. Suresh.Varma.123 (talk) 14:07, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

yes!.... what a wonder india is?!!... even in the kerala society papers, there is a mention of the minachil karthas, how they differ from other nairs of the llathu clan....rajputs peneterated deep into india and ceylon.... remember the famous rani padmini of chittorgarh was from ceylon... also many tamil mudaliars/ vellalas keep names like jaisingh/ jeyasingh...i also feel rather than newars coming from nepal and becoming nairs, nairs went to nepal and fought for the king nanyadeva, probably that explains some similarities between kerala and nepal.... nairs were in great demand as soldiers, it is felt the vijayanagar army contained a great many nairs, too.Vivwiki (talk) 05:26, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

I have read about Nairs of Vijayanagara. It can be proved with ease. But on the other hand, a migration from Kerala to Newar is very difficult to prove. I haven't seen any historical sources. Suresh.Varma.123 (talk) 14:17, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

meenachil karthas are rajputs agreed but how on earth are rajputs aryans.the rajputs have their own agnikula origin myth and most historians and anthrophologists are of the view rajupts are scythian(lack of sacred thread among many rajput clans).some sources even point out of them being huns which is debatable but rajputs definately are not pure blooded aryans.and nairs of vijaynagara what do you mean by that,nairs served as generals for vijayanagara empire in kerala but they never ventured toward vijayanagara(present day hampi) unlike the bunts who did,the Tuluva dynasty founded by nagavanshi bunts.if you ever visit hampi you will find a lot of serpent shrines there similar to nagabana of the bunts or sarpa kavu of nairs from the tuluva dynasty period but they were built by bunts there.i have serious doubts whether nairs were there in capital city of vijayanagara empire.Linguisticgeek (talk) 15:31, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

to vivwiki your point is a bit far fetched don't you think.nairs are not indigenous to kerala which is what most records say.how on earth nairs from kerala went to nepal and became newars.newar-nair connection is to me a bit non sensical.newari nair customs are not exactly similar when compared to lets say bunt-nair customs which are almost identical.also the theory is based on a ridiculous point nepali temples have similar architecture to kerala/tulu nadu temples.architectural similarities might be due to nepali kings appointing only namboodiri to serve as priests initially and also tulu brahmins(embrandiri) from the 18 century.Linguisticgeek (talk) 15:40, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

 hi, linguistic geek... some clarifications...

i subscribe to the general view that nairs are not indigenous to kerala... they are definitely invaders, most likely of scythian origin. 2. i do not wish to say that the nairs became newars, rather the few who went as soldiers to fight for raja nanyadeva got assimilated into the larger newar community. 3. i agree that anybody who thinks nairs and newars are related are really casting the net too far!!!!...newars are heavily mongoloid looking, nairs resemble mediterranean caucasoids....but all the same, english writers like oldham and colonel fitzpatrick found similaities between nair matriliny and newar matriliny and yup the rather strange similarities in architecture.. i recently read a book- the gorkhas by parmar and according to him nairs are above medium stature , while newars are short and below medium statured.

about the vijaynagar connection it was put forward by thurston- his reference is the book- vijayanagar a forgotten empire. since nairs are a favourite of all writers from duarte barbosa to fawcett, there are many views of their origin... why chandra chakraborty in his book " racial basis of history of asia" .. refers to ' HUNA NAYARS"- huns... of course that is taking it too far!. and william halse rivers connects nairs to todas - on the basis of anthropometric measurements.....todas being a very pure proto nordic / north indid group and nairs belonging much to the same race but shorter than the todas due to admixture with the earlier inhabitants of australoid racial affinities.

so there are many diverse views, but really no one outstanding one!but yes nairs arrived in kerala mostly from the north. Vivwiki (talk) 19:10, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

ok, friends lets not get into a slanging match!!!....for the unknown ip user, just check out the bottom of the nair main page on wikipedia.... there is a nair DNA website, where some mtDNA and Y dna has been analysed ....the main lineages appear to be similar to eastern european and mediterranean genetic pools...of course only 17 members have been analysed and that is too small a sample for a reasonably large community as the nairs are,.... if i am not mistaken that project has been taken up by NRI nairs, i think our own NSS should start something on similar lines... especially when communities like bunts and coorgs have also taken up an initiative to study their genetic make up.....like kuttapan nair says the strength of our community is the varying genetic make up.... also i read with some interest the article on the minachil karthas.... quite tragic actually...i still fail to understand marthanda varma's almost genocidal wiping out of so many nair families! he and the father son duo of hyder ali - tipu sultan must rank as the worst enemies of nairs!...but look whats happened to both the families- tipu's descendants pull rickshaws in calcutta and the descendants of martanda varma are living a life of isolation and decay!.... Vivwiki (talk) 17:10, 23 April 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vivwiki (talk • contribs) 17:09, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Blame the real culprit. Marthanda Varma became the king when he was still in his 20s. The inexperienced prince was brainwashed by Ramayyan Dalawa, a Tamil Iyer who held much hatred against the Nairs. And one more thing.... not only the Nairs suffered under him. Marthanda Varma's actions against the Ettara Yogam and the deportation / banishment of Malayali Brahmins is equally famous. Malayali Brahmins lost each and every aspect of power they once held under the rule of Marthanda Varma. Only the Tamil Brahmins and the Tamil mercenaries (Maravars.etc) gained under his rule. Suresh.Varma.123 (talk) 05:53, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

also it is interesting to read that raja rama varma married a rajput princess from present day avadh ( kosala).... i guess our forefathers had no qualms about marrying from UP !!!!!... today all hell would break loose if a nair boy/ girl would marry a UPite, bihari or punjabi!.... lets face it down the ages, indians have become more parochial and conservative!... even the north indians still have prejudices against south indians! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vivwiki (talk • contribs) 17:20, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

It is important for a number of reasons. First, the Travancore Maharajah is regarded as a Samanthan Nair, not a Samanta Kshatriya. The fact that he could marry a Rajput princess proves that Samanthan Nairs were considered equal or above the Rajput in caste status. Second, the Kunju Thampis, (sons of Raja Rama Varma with the Rajput princess) were regarded as lower in caste status compared to Marthanda Varma (Who is the son of Raghava Varma, a Samanta Kshatriya and the sister of Raja Rama Varma, a Samanthan Nair). Suresh.Varma.123 (talk) 05:53, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

mr kuttappan nair,i admire your audacity to question my grammatical skills when your spellings are anything but flawless(astraloid,discussin,spellings from Oxford Thesaurus eh?).The main lineages of nairs as evidently pointed out by Vivwiki are eastern european and mediterranean(read scythian) according to whatever genetic studies which have been conducted.secondly your comparison between Kadammanitta Ramakrishnan and shashi tharoor on the basis on their physical attributes is more absurd than the 'grand unification theory'.what is being said on this talk page(go through the archives) is that Nairs are mainly an indo scythian people with some being bi-racial and not all as you would like me to believe.These Nairs might have minor mixing of blood with the defeated clans mostly probably the Velirs(the highest of the vellalas) or as some sources point out the cheras,a dravidian people,from whom Kadammanitta Ramakrishnan might have acquired his australoid feautures.The australoid genes are anyways more dominant than the caucasian ones,therefore even minor blood mixing can lead to such drastic changes ,Kadammanitta Ramakrishnan appears biracial to me and not a pure blooded australoid.To explain the dominant gene effect of the negroid-australoid genes i would like to cite an example of german supermodel heidi klum(caucasian blue eyed blonde) and her negroid husband Seal(a pure blooded mandinka person).Their children have not aquired any of the feautures of their blonde mother.they look very much negroid which explains why minor blood mixing has long term effects.The nairs definately are not an aboriginal people who mixed with other races.If that was the case you would never get a shashi tharoor because of the dominant negroid gene effect.Linguisticgeek (talk) 19:11, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Mr kuttappan your are mixing fiction(Examples are aplenty in MT's masterpieces and in bad literature from guys like Unnikrishnan Puthoor) with facts.There are plenty of Nairs clans which don't intermarry(sambandham) with the nambudiris.Infact the Nairs having nambudiri paternal ancestry are far less when compared to pure blooded nairs.Secondly the bunts don't intermarry with brahmins at all.How would u explain aishwarya rai inheriting her blue-green eyes.Nair practices of Matrilineality,polyandry,serpent worship are essentially non-dravidian scythian practices.namboodiris aren't exactly aryan either(e.m.s.namboodiripad an example).The Namboodiris in Payannur practice matrilineality which many say is proof that nambudiris might be scythians elevated to brahminhood.And also please refrain from namboodiri bashing,the page is not meant to do that.Also your basics regarding anthrophology are pretty much wrong.Linguisticgeek (talk) 04:03, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

You are making a fool of yourself by replying to this Kuttappan guy. He is not a Nair, but member of a community which is famous for "Bhoshku parahil". He operates under close to a dozen sock puppets like sn nair, kuttappan nair, sanal nair, sanalkumar nair.etc. He is trying to divert attention from serious discussions here. Just ignore the idiot and concentrate on the topic, since we haven't invented medicine for 3 things (AIDS, baldness and jealousy). Suresh.Varma.123 (talk) 05:42, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Let us face the facts. Nairs are a cross breed of the aboriginals of Kerala with people, whoever they are, that came from across the borders. As is the case throughout history, security and status also implied fights for posession of wealth and beautiful women. Several permutations and combinations resulted, with perpetual struggles between people in power with those who were disposessed. There's little point in the vending of cock and bull stories about the origins. A more interesting approach would be the genetic mapping of individuals and groups in Kerala, which act, if pursued honestly, can resolve several disputes about who the Nairs are, and what exactly is their relationship to people from other parts of India. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.151.62.7 (talk) 06:32, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

To unknown ip 86.151.62.7 please create an account before writing nonsense like nair are a cross breed of the aboriginals of kerala.nairs are not indigenous to kerala thats what most anthrophologists say.most nair clans and all bunt clans have scythian origins thats what gentic mapping says to be honest.Linguisticgeek (talk) 09:16, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Mr. Kuttappan, if you want to divert the topic, then plz start a new thread. Suresh.Varma.123 (talk) 05:56, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Not surprised why Kuttappan is not convinced, some 'kuttappans' are like that they act sleeping, no need to wake them up. No one is denying the fact that Nairs have mixed with certain Dravidian clans like vellalas and maravas mostly in the kanyakumari and other border districts. The theory that Nairs are dravidian and only the ones who mixed with Namboothiris looks aryan is absolutely rubbish. The Namboothiri population is not even 1% of kerala while Nairs are around 15%. Even today there are darker and shorter people among Namboothiris than among Nairs. Generally people in kerala looks dark thanks to the equatorial climate, even the jews, parsis and gujarathis settled in Kerala, who had no mixing up, look dark. A serious observer should go by the genetic studies to determine the origin of races rather than looking at random samples of skin colour and physical features. The studies that have been done so far on Nairs all points to a indo-scythian origin. Here's the excerpts from one of the most reliable source on this subject..

..Dopamine gene theory – Valeries Legrand – She has been on the subject of the Nairs of Kerala for the last one decade and hence claims to be an authority on the same. The origins of the Nairs are shrouded in mystery, but from most ancient accounts, cultures and customs, it can be safely inferred that the Nairs are Scythian of descent. The fact that recent tests indicate presence of the warrior gene 'dopamine' in them as in case of other Scythians attests to this fact. As a race they are distinct from the prevailing Aryan or Dravidian races of India...

It is not that difficult to observe that Nairs are a different race from the rest of the dravidian s.indian population. Nairs, Bunts and Coorgis look totally different along with certain brahmin sects. While the connection between Nairs and Bunts and their common origin is well established, the origin of Coorgies remain a mystery.

On aryans and scythians, apart from the fact that the indo-aryans being vedic people, there could hardly be any differences since both these people have originated from indo-iranian tribes. Of course, the aryans considered scythians as 'degraded' barbaric warriors though ethnically they both might be the same. The aryans were mostly brahmins and the kshathriyas were scythians though few of the scythian tribes were converted to the vedic fold as in the case of samanta kshatriya. The rift could have existed even those days which resulted in Budha who was a scythian founding a new religion outside of the vedic dogma. There is no source to prove that meenachil karthas were of aryan origin. However, they had certain rituals which were more 'aryan' like. They never had any shaivic names. Most of them were named 'Bhaskara', 'Ravi', 'kerala' etc with 'Damodara simhar ' as their title. Anyway the lack of sacred thread give credence to the fact that they were not considered aryans (or not sure whether this ritual got discontinued as a result of their plight and long years of exile due to the genocide.Keraleeyan

Everyone knows that you (i.e you along with your sock accounts) are having too much problem with the Kshatriya status of Nairs. The majority of the Brahmins attended the murajapam were Tulu and Tamil speaking Brahmins and nambuthiri presencein Travancore has been noted for the last one millenium or so. Also, princess Abhirami was a Rajput according to the Travancore State Manual. Just stop your rubbish. Chandrakantha.Mannadiar (talk) 10:01, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

About this last post above ^: Uthradom Thirunal has nieces and Lakshmi Nalappat is in the line of "succession" (if any such thing exists today). However, the reason for adoption was that Lakshmi Nalappat does not have children and after her there would be nobody to continue the family (family here specifically means Uthradom Thirunal's branch as the Bangalore branch of the Travancore family has an abundant supply of female members resident all over the world today). Hence Lekha Varma was adopted by Aswathy Thirunal Gowri Lakshmi Bayi from their close relations at Mavelikkara.

---

A question to whoever has written the answer above- what is the original caste of danseuse Gopika varma, i.e before she married Pooruruttathi Thirunaal Marthandavarma of the Travancore Royal Family? Was she a Kshatriya?.However, she's described as the present Queen of Travancore. As her son is called Rama Varma (barely 12 years old!) I think she was indeed a girl from a Varma household, and not a Nair girl as several people say.Sons of Thankachis/ Ammachis and Netyaramma were not permitted to use the title Varma.Can someone clear the doubt?PurushothamanThomasPuliyarakonam (talk) 11:01, 27 June 2010 (UTC)PurushothamanThomasPuliyarakonam (talk) 16:19, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Gopika Varma is a Nair. She hails from Mavelikkara and is the niece of Radha Devi, Uthradom Thirunal's wife. The old custom has changed. Even Uthradom Thirunal's son from his Nair wife is named Padmanabha Varma. Also Gopika Varma's son is not Rama Varma. His name is Vishnu Varma. We are living many years since all those customs died out. Manu —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.170.60.96 (talk) 08:18, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Mr.Manu, you are wrong. It is true that the current Maharajah's (Uthradom Thirunal Marthanda Varma) wife is a Nair (Sri Panapilla Amma Shrimathi Radha Devi Kochamma). But his son is Sri Anantha Padmanabhan Thampi, not Padmanabha Varma and he is not in the line of royal descent. You can check here. Sorry boy. Time hasn't changed. When Uthradom Thirunal dies, his nephew will inherit his throne, not his son. Axxn (talk) 10:33, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

I am not wrong. However I will reply to your points in the order of their appearance. Firstly, Radha Devi did not take the title of Panapillai Amma because that is given only to ladies from Ammaveedus and since times had changed the royal family at that time did not feel the need to "recognize" her as an Ammachi. She was known simply as "Srimathi Radha Devi" and when in 1949 the GOI settled allowances and privy purses, she was included as a member of the royal family with an allowance. You can verify this, for instance, in the Kerala Gazette of 1963 where her allowance was revised to Rs. 3000. Secondly, the link you gave me, while a great resource on the genealogy of the royal family, is not encyclopedic material. Uthradom Thirunal's son is known as Padmanabha Varma and you can verify this in his own biography that was released earlier this year by APJ Abdul Kalam. The "Thampi" title is no longer used. Thirdly, there is no "throne" to inherit any more and hence "succession" remains more an academic thing (and certainly perhaps associated with the Trivandrum temple) than a practical reality. Certainly Mr. Padmanabha Varma has no claims to "succession" but his surname is indeed Varma as are his children's. Manu rocks (talk) 11:08, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

In that case, Gopika Varma can be included in the list of famous Nairs. Her Photograph can be among those shown in the article. Will it be embarassing to the Travancore Royal Family? Mayiran Mankaattukadavu (talk) 10:43, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

May be it is a matter of academic interest alone, but does the new system apply if a member of the Royal Family marries, say, an Ezhava or Pulaya girl? Will the children use title Varma? Alternately, since the Royal family follows a matrilineal system, will the children born to a Royal Girl adopt the mother's title of Varma, irrespective of the father's caste? Markandeyan Varghese Maruthankuzhi (talk) 06:17, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

With regard to what user Mayiran said, "embarrassment" to the royal family is not a valid point to exclude someone from an encyclopedic list. If the users active on this page feel including her would be a good idea, it should be done without unnecessary considerations. As for the comment by user Markandeyan, since there has been no instance of a Travancore Thampuran marrying into any case below the Nair, we cannot say what the name of such progeny might be. With regard to the second question, many women of the Travancore family have already adopted the surnames of their husbands and fathers. For instance Makham Thirunal Lakshmi Bayi is better known as Dr. Lakshmi Raghunandan, after her husband RV Raghunandan Thampuran of Cochin. Her daughter, married to a Sanal Kumar, is known as Nandita Kumar. I hope this answers the question. However all these men are also Varmas except for Madhavdas Nalappat. However Nalappat and his wife Lakshmi Bayi do not have kids so we cannot say what the surname of such an offspring might have been. Manu rocks (talk) 13:22, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

A Thamburatti girl of Tripunitura in the direct line of descent was married off to a Pulaya boy way back in 1995/96. Although it was the culmination of a long romantic affair, the marriage was with the consent of , and in the presence of ,everyone from the Royal family as well as the bridegroom's relatives. In other words it was something absolutely regular/officiaL. I would like to know the status of this Pulaya boy- who has since settled in the US with his Royal wife- vis a vis the Perumpadappu Swaroopam. Where does he stand, in the order of succession? Pattabhiraman Varghese Pathanamthitta (talk) 11:21, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Discussions are enlightening. However, the article does not give on a clue on the status of Nairs during the first century AD when St.Thomas arrived in Kerala to spread the Word of God. Legend has it that several Nambuthiris embraced Christianity. What happened to the Nairs who were associated with these Nambuthiris? Did they also follow suit? If so, why are they not mentioned in the Church History?Kamamohini Mathews Kamathipura (talk) 16:39, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

hi..Mr(?) enlightened Kamathipura Mathews..don't you know that the story of Namboothiri conversion to christians was a huge bluff. Namboothiris and their yeomen entered kerala only in 7 th century CE. The theory of st:Thomas visit itself is in duspute now..so where is the question of Namobothiri conversion. Due to the non-dravidian physical traits of Nair/Namboothiri and Syrian christians the bluff however served its purpose.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.15.16.20 (talk) 06:32, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

What about the 'Brahmins of Chera Kingdom' mentioned in the Sangam Literature that dates back to the 1st Century BC? Were they not Nambuthiris? Is the Parasurama legend totally without any basis? If not, Brahminism in Kerala is much older than it 's claimed to be! As for St. Thomas's arrival at Kodungallore in 52 AD, it 's a well established fact.Of course, the point under discussion is whether Nairs followed their Nambuthiri mentors in embracing Christianity.Kamamohini Mathews Kamathipura (talk) 12:17, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

I fear that you are wrong on many counts..the religion during sangam period was shivism or some form of hinduism and not definitely not the namoothiri designed orthodox 'chathurvarnya' based one. There is no mention about Namboothiri or Nair till 7th CE while christianity came to kerala in the 1st c itself when Kerala or chera was very much part of Tamilakam and people were dravidian. Probably some scholars of that period would have embraced christianity,however it is unlikely that they were Namboothiris and could've been native dravidians. The syrian christains of kerala like all other communities here, is a hetrogenouse group with substantial native mix. However, the syrian chrisitans resemble the nairs/namboothiris especially in the central travancore region. This could be due to their central asian connection. The scythians and syrians are similar people who have originated from the same place and have reached kerala at different period of time through different route and for different purpose.

Namboothiri story of Parashurama and his record breaking axe through is an epic lie (the legend also has that the previous avathar of parashurama -vamana- pushed the kerala king to pathala, ie Kerala, as a piece of land, existed much before Parashurama) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.15.16.20 (talk) 09:42, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Archaeological excavations at 'Pattanam' near N.Parur, reveal remnanats of a civilization there that 's at least 3000 years old. The place is close to the port of 'Musiris' referred in the writings of almost all the ancient mariners and travellers.It was at Musiris/Kodungallore that Thomasleeha 's supposed to have landed in 52 AD. The finding that the place was indeed home for an urban milieu challenges also criticisms on the authenicity of the claim that St.Thomas spread the gospel amongst the elite in society. There were nambuthiris in Kerala a the time,in all probability, and there were Nairs too! I would refer to this most interesting article in Mathrubhumi daily by Dr.P J cheriyan, Director of Historical Research. http://www.mathrubhumi.com/article.php?id=471340 VaraveenaVargheseMrudupaaniMathews (talk) 10:05, 21 August 2010 (UTC) As mentioned in the article under reference, history of Kerala is largely a matter of fanciful imaginings, rather than a body of information derived from archaeological and other fool proof sources of evidence. The story of Christ's leading disciple arriving in Kodungallore and converting Namboothiris is one such phantasy- unsubstantiated by any form of evidence- deliberately set into circulation by the prosperous christian community of traders who would cast a greedy eye on social acceptance and status.Neither Nairs nor Namboothiris were converted ever. That apart, Nairs or Nambuthiri Brahmins were not part of the Society in Kerala in the first millenium BC. It is significant to note that Namboothiri families or Illams in Kerala maintain no such tradition that several of them left for the foriegn faith in large numbers.'Margam Koodal' or choosing the Christian Path was an option for people who were deprived of their caste status through the custom of 'Bhrashtu'. But instances are very few and hardly documented. Both Nambuthiris and Nairs were well ensconced in the upper reaches of the Hindu fold in Kerala, and it would n't have been in their interests whatsoever to abandon the privileges of belonging to the upper castes for the rather un-attractive status of the Christian convert whose tribe swelled, nevertheless, through mass defections from the lowe castes, viz. Ezhavas and Pulayas. Detailed discussion of this would , of course, be out of context. ChandranPillaiChandernagar (talk) 16:52, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

i find it hard to digest all this big talk about Rajputs,'Kshatriya Status' etc. The fact remains that Nairs , when they practised soldiering, were Sudra Soldiers. The closest comparison will be with the Maratha Sardars -despite that the Marathas are a hardier lot- who were confused at the time of Sivaji's ascension to the throne. Brahmin pundits, obviously in return for favours bestowed, performed several bogus rites to elevate Sivaji to Kshatriyahood. (It is another matter that anything of the sort did not take place in the case of Nairs!)ChandyChandigarh (talk) 09:53, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Applying the same logic, what is wrong if the children born in Sambandham start using titles of their fathers i.e Nambuthiripadu, Bhattathiripaadu etc.?Mayiraandi Mathews Mayilaaduthurai (talk) 15:31, 1 July 2010 (UTC)Mayiraandi Mathews Mayilaaduthurai (talk) 15:33, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

According to Madras Marumakkathayam Act of 1933 - "In all cases, Sambandham should be considered equivalent to regular marriage. Children born to Sambandham marriages must be conferred same rights of inheritance and property as applicable to the children born to regular marriages. (applicable to Sambadhams which took place even before 1933, but not applicable outside the Presidency of Madras)".

It is the purely the choice of someone who is born in a Sambandham marriage to take the surname as a Nair or Nambuthiri, but if he take the surname as Nambuthiri he will be treated by the Brahmins the same way a Chakkala Nair is treated by an Idasseri Nair in Travancore or the way a Vattakatan Nair is treated by a Charna Nair in Palakkad. Also, it is against the Nair custom to name the children with their father's surname, as family lineage is passed matrilineally. For example, if a Nambiar from Kannur marry a Menon girl from Palakkad, the children will be Menon, not Nambiar. If anyone argues against this, then I challenge them to produce a single example for that. Chandrakantha.Mannadiar (talk) 16:05, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Collage

Just wonder it would be better to replace someone like Anoop Menon in the collage with G. Madhavan Nair. Opinion? Any one got a pic? Arjun^codename024 13:12, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Still keeping distance

Some Nairs still keeping Ezhava and dalit away from them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Savarna1234567890 (talk • contribs) 17:03, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Brahmakshatriya

Should we note the Brahmakshatriya status? (Since they had a Brahmin father and Nair mother?) It is worth bringing up in the article, although due to matrilinearity, they were not classed as "Brahmakshatriyas". Regardless, the genetic make up of Nairs would be very similar to that of Nambudiri Brahmins, due to the common nature of Sambandham.124.180.116.160 (talk) 23:30, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

i don't think it is required Nairs with nambudiri paternal ancestry is marginal.besides Nair clans which don't have sambandham with nambudiris are far more when compared to those who do,And those nairs who do have nambudiri ancestors don't claim this status at all.so this Brahmakshatriya thing would be original research.Nagavanshi kshatriya is the most apt and fitting description.Linguisticgeek (talk) 06:36, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Nambuthiris were 0.3% of the population, while Nairs constituted 18% in 1891. But there are certain clans (some Nambiar clans as well as some Samanta clans) in which the female members are allowed to marry only the Nambuthiris. They are very few in number, but are not nonexistent. Also, the term Nagavanshi Kshatriya is used for other tribes like Bunts and Coorgs as well as some Rajput and Jat clans in the North. So Nagavanshi Kshatriya can't be used as an alternative for Nair. The best alternative is the one given in Shabdatharavali (i.e Malayala Kshatriya or Malayalam speaking Kshatriya). Chandrakantha.Mannadiar (talk) 02:25, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

alas!....the very term kshatriya is to be conferred by brahmins, who have a hegemony on deciding hierarchy in the indian caste system....the only true vedic kshatriyas are the khatris and aroras of punjab, who were spared by parashurama( that is an interesting story by itself...)rajputs are non vedic kshatriyas who got the kshatriya status just because they favoured brahmins...however nairs are not alone , jats, kodavas, bunts, marathas are all races with a martial past who are not dvija kshatriyas... i guess ' vratya" kshtriyas would be better for us.Vivwiki (talk) 15:15, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

What a joke. Khatris are not Kshatriyas at all. They are a merchant community descended from the vedic Kshattri (better known as Chandala). Have you read the book "Kshatriyas and would-be kshatriyas" by Chedi Singh Varma? I have the book in PDF format and if you are interested, I can email you. Chandrakantha.Mannadiar ([[User

talk:Chandrakantha.Mannadiar|talk]]) 02:25, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

To, Vivwiki,Chandrakantha.Mannadiar

I think you people misunderstood my statement.the i.p.124.180.116.160 had aksed should we mention the brahmakshatriya status.i replied by saying no nair clan claims the brahmakshatriya status(even those few nair clans who have sambandham with the nambudiris).Most Nair/Samanta clans including the minuscle minority with nambudiri paternal ancestry claim nagavanshi descent,while there are some like the cochin royal family who inspite of being Nagas and having a huge sarpa kavu at their palace claim to be chandravanshi. Secondly all bunts claim only one descent,that they are Nagavansham kshatriya from Ahichatram Madastana in Uttara Panchala. Apart from bunts,there are jat and rajput clans which claim nagavanshi status. And about coorgies(kodava),i don't think they claim any descent apart from simply referring to themselves as kshatriya.Therefore what i said was that Nagavanshi kshatriya lineage is the only thing that needs mention in the article,And yes Vivwiki khatris are a rich merchant caste not kshatriya,some sources point out to them being the progeny of kshatriyas and vaishyas.Their Varna status is a bit confusing.Linguisticgeek (talk) 06:02, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Most Nairs, (Samanthan, Kiriyath, Illathu) have extensive Nambudiri ancestry. Although Nambudiris were a tiny minority, until 1930 only the eldest son could marry an Antharjanam, the other sons would enter into Sambandham, often with multiple wives, meaning that the population difference didn't matter as much, if one Nambudiri was marrying 4 Nair women (due to the responsibility-free nature of Sambandham, this was common). Also Samanthanmar, who almost certainly had a Nambudiri father, could marry multiple Nair women (polygamy was seen amongst Nairs as well) and the Nair children, though not having a Nambudiri father, would have patrilinear Nambudiri ancestry. In this way, almost all Nairs from Kiriyath and Illathu subcastes have patrilinear Nambudiri ancestry.

I have heard of Nair families where every female in the past 4 generations at least have married Nambudiris, and given that a Nambudiri would only have Nambudiri ancestors, you can calculate that out of the 16 great-great-grandparents, 15 are Nambudiris and only one is Nair, but the person is still Nair, simply because of matrilinear caste! (Even then, the one "Nair" great-great-grandparent probably has Nambudiri ancestors as well!)121.214.126.146 (talk) 02:06, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

If that was the case, then Nairs would have been closely related to Nambuthiris in looks and features. But that is not the case. Nambuthiris are having clear Aryan features, while most of the Nairs have some what Southern Italian / Mediterranean / Scythian features. Also, on average a Nair is much taller than a Nambuthiri. Polygamy was very rarely practised in Kerala, although polyandry was prevalent. Chandrakantha.Mannadiar (talk) 02:46, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

to chandrakantha mannadiar.....dear please email that ebook about kshatriyas to vivpillsy@rediffmail.com....actually my reference for the kshatriya status of khatris is the book....castes and tribes of north west india....mind you the khatris are not too bothered about their varna status....many punjabi khatri friends of mine just laugh it away when others call them " lala"... they definitely are superior to banias ! yup , when i am free i will just contribute some of the findings of the anthropometric survey of india comparing statures of kerala castes, i brief the nairs, pattars and nambuthiris clustered together and the nambuthiri was the shortest whereas the nairs where the tallest... will give the range of figures later...about nairs having southern italian features, some foreigners who have written monograms on malabar, cochin, clearly feel so....interestingly many nambuthiris i have seen like ems nambuthiripad are not exactly your prototypic " nordic aryan" are they?...so if nairs mixed with such clans of nambuthiris , i guess stature would be shorter and complexion darker!. interestingly fawcett in his book- nayars of malabar studied the physical anthropology of nayars of malabar extensively and says the" vattakadan( oil monger) nayar has the finest nose among all the nair clans he examined( including nambiars, kurups etc)... nasal index is considered to be an important clue to race... also the vattakadan has no sambandham with the nambuthiris being considered an inferior nair, so the conclusion here is left for all to deduce!Vivwiki (talk) 10:44, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Nairs in Malabar are genetically more pure i believe(shashi tharoor is from malabar,a vandal was calling him suave),fawcett does write nairs having a fine nose in malabar.interestingly even thurston in his caste and tribes writes the same stuff about bunts(broad forehead,parrot nose,tall stature).But the question is how on earth did the rigid nambudiris acquire their australoid look.nambudiris might be the most rigid orthodox brahmins in practice.But most of them don't look quintessentially aryan when you compare them to lets say the kashmiri pandits.Linguisticgeek (talk) 11:14, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

And one more thing i would like to state i am a nambiar(kiryathil Nair) from kannur-kasaragod border and most southern Nairs think we have more nambudiri ancestry.But the fact is most nambiars actually do not have that much nambudiri ancestry.infact as far i know,my tharavadu and many nair tharavads in kannur haven't had any sambandham at all.I have been checking marriage alliances in my family of aleast past seven generations and there is no nambudiri anywhere.infact what i found out was that my maternal grand mother(seventh generation back) was married to one Chinayya Rai (Bunt) from kasaragod and one of my grand uncles (sixth generation back) had married one Sita Amma Shetty (Bunt) from Kumbla.Interestingly there are many other nair tharavads in north malabar who have had these rare marriage alliances with bunts.All these alliances are from before 120 years and it stops after that.Also there are many nair clans in the south as well who are endogamous or marry only nairsLinguisticgeek (talk) 11:48, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

hey... that is interesting!!!.. actually my bunt friends in mangalore also have similar tales of their forefathers marrying nairs( both men and women)...it would be interesting if you could trace your genealogy( to linguistic geek)...it would strengthen the connection between bunts and nairs.. also i beg to differ about "australoid "features among nambuthiris... they are more likely to be paleo- mediterranean( tawny brown with regular features). usually the nambuthiris i have seen have pleasing countenances... more about this alittle later!Vivwiki (talk) 16:32, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

first of all apologies to the initiator of this topic" brahma kshatriya" since we have strayed from the topics..now coming back to nambuthiris...the deterioration in stature could be due to a) inbreeding of an extreme kind which is common among such orthodox communities. b)strict vegetarianism. c) lack of exercise due to their priestly duties.... also darker complexion as they could have recruited non brahmins to their fold initially due to very less numbers... anyway they probably have much lesser australoid admixture tnan say tamil brahmins ( like erstwhile bjp member govindacharya ( frankly proto australoid)... also it is a fact that australoid genes are present in most indian populations to some degree , but most marked in the lower strata of society  !.... about bunt and nair marriages in the past,it surely has taken place in north kerala and south canara... even today, while such marriages are not encouraged they are accepted by bunts with a " oh, he/ she is just like us" sort of feeling. lastly while linguistic geek talks about negligible sambandam with nambuthiris, what about tulu brahmins? i guess there were numerically more tulu brahmins in kasargod and i have come across a note about the nambiars in kasargod taluk having sambandam with tulu brahmins( pottis)...i will start a new thread on this topicVivwiki (talk) 18:45, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Firstly, it's about time that we get rid of this fantasy of Nambudiris being Aryans, who were blonde-haired and blue-eyed. There is no evidence of Nambudiri migration into Kerala, the only solid proof of migration has been of Pattar brahmins into Palaghat and Pottis from Tulunadu. Secondly, there are dark people everywhere in India, even in Kashmir and Punjab. There are also Thiyyas and Chaliyars who are tall, fair with light-coloured eyes; just as there are countless dark Nairs, Nambudiris and Iyers. Honestly, I can't tell the difference between a Nair and a Nambudiri, especially when you compare them to a Maharashtrian, Bengali or Kashmiri. Though it may be true there is some correlation between caste and colour to a minor degree, overall, colour and features is by no means a reliable indicator of caste. Just as in Europe, most Italians and Greeks have black hair, but you will also find brown/blonde there, and in Scandinavia, though many have blonde hair, black haired people also exist. It's called diversity.

Nambudiris, in their strict orthodoxy only ever lost numbers through brashtu and excommunication, they never gained people into the community; and nobody could pose as a Nambudiri in Kerala, since every Nambudiri belonged to an Illam/Mana (unlike other Brahmins), and the system meant that you simply couldn't claim to be part of that family.

Also this is the first I have ever heard of Tulu people marrying Nairs. Though I can understand if a Potti married a Nair, I know that it was frowned upon, especially if a Pattar married a Nair, since they were considered inferior to Nambudiris and Samanthanmar. I have also heard that the famous tharavadu of Kodoth split from Vengayil in bygone times, because one of the daughters of Kodoth married a Nambudiri who was "outside their caste", and this daughter became the matriarch of the Vengayil family. Since then Kodoth women have entered into marriage with Nambudiris as well.

I certainly know of Nair families where they have had extensive Sambandham with Nambudiris, where they have more Nambudiri ancestry than Nair. Like I have said, it's a fair assumption to make that at least 95% of Kiriyath and Illathu Nairs have a paternal Nambudiri ancestor.121.214.2.95 (talk) 23:08, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

My understanding is that Kiriyathil was distinguished until the 19th century because they married only within their caste and did not accept Sambandhams with Brahmins. By the 19th century they started allowing Namboodiris to marry their women as well. Manu rocks (talk) 05:40, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

As far as I know, Kiryathil of North Malabar is considered higher in caste status compared to Samanthan of South Malabar. At the same time Vellayma Nayar of Cochin is superior to Kiryathil of South Malabar. Suresh.Varma.123 (talk) 16:43, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Let us disregard ideas of one subsect being higher or lower. The status of Kiriyathil Nair meant Jenmi status, and the women often married Samanthar (who naturally had Nambudiri paternal ancestry). The only real difference between Nairs is between the Chaliya Nairs, who belong to the Chaliyar caste (it would be like a Nair using the title of Nambudiri). Also women from Malabar traditionally did not marry men from the south, due to many reasons, one of which was distance, and another being the slightly different marriage customs, such as the lack of Tali-kettu in North Malabar.139.168.0.93 (talk) 11:26, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

I think it is worth mentioning in the article, that many Nairs have Nambudiri ancestry, like the Brahmkshatriyas.139.168.0.93 (talk) 11:26, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Link of Nair to Indo-Scythians

Can someone tell me how these Nairs are related to Indo-Scythians. I'm bit confused as there are several sources that claim people (including Maratha) from some parts of Maharashtra are decedents of Indo-Scythians and someone told me Nairs are decedents of Indo-Scythians. Please someone explain this. --Onef9day ^Talk! 22:48, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Nairs: The Indigenous Nagavanshi Kshatriya Clan of Kerala

       ॐ एकदन्ताय विद्महे
       वक्रतुण्डाय धीमहि
       तन्नो दन्ति प्रचोदयात्

At prevedic times the whole of India was ruled by Eight serpent clans. They are the names of the kings not real snakes. As it is discussed in 5th archive of this discussion, it was the time of transition of culture towards a finest one. In prevedic periods the land of Kerala was known as Patala-Loka, and here, not only rulers but the citizens also were Nagavanshi Kshatriyas, Patala-Loka was known as land of Serpent Clan Kshatriyas. Very well we know the stubbornness of Nairs - they are not ready to accept anything readily. Also Nairs are well-known for their judicious nature. Whoever came to south india with an intention to rule, they all have tasted the rage of Nairs.

Eight Great Nāgas, namely, Ananta, Vāsuki, Padmanābha, Kambala, Shankhapāla, Dhārtarāshtra, Takshaka, and Kāliya:

       अनन्तं वासुकिं शेषं पद्मनाभं च कम्बलम् |
       शंखपालं धार्तराष्ट्रं तक्षकं कालियं तथा ||

Each Great Serpent had his on territory in India, and Patala-Loka was the adobe of Adishesha the Great Serpent Anantha. The Serpent Anantha was regarded as greatest among the Eight. Nairs even today follow serpent worship and preaching pulluvan pattu. The name Thiruvananthapuram has derived from that and the decentralized administration always contained 8 as a prime number. We can see upto the history of AD1700 Thiruvananthapuram was divided into eight desams(domains). Ettuveetil pillai were not eight families it was 8 places as follows - one of the nair family from each place MARTHANDOM, VENGAANOOR, PALLICHAL, KULATHOOR, CHEMPAZHANTHI, RAMANAMATOM, KODUMON, KAZHAKKOOTAM. Vekramaditya (talk) 12:06, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

to put it mildly you are taking it too far.also no original research on wikipedia.Nairs/Bunts were naga invaders from north is well documented .the rise of matrilineal kingdoms is a proof to that.LinguisticGeek 12:28, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Dear Mr.Geek, very nice to say that your comments are just like supporting aryan invasion theory. FYI aryan invasion theory is scientifically disproved.

Which all stated in Nair page is not an original research. Many of the elder nair family members know these facts. The works of CHATTAMPI SWAMIKAL, names of places with naga reference, prevalent presence of number '8' in administration representing EIGHT GREAT NAGAS, the decentralized administration system which existed upto 1700AD, etc. refer to point these facts. And, obviously this subject need to be here in this page, because others are exploiting one of the qualities of Nair clan that is the readiness to hear the other side(judicial nature). We can see even if it is very minor matter Nairs are listening to that and replying.

Invasion to the south is an imagination, Nairs are lords of the most ancient weapons' practice, if the nairs are invaders, the origin of invaders must have another far ancient history of martial arts, and for reasons there is no ancient weapons practice and martial arts elder than kalarippayattu which is purely native to Kerala and still existing. Only one possibility is KUNGFU (most dangerous as kalarippayattu)- The grand masters of KUNGFU and SHAOLIN TEMPLES(head quarters of kungfu) respectfully acknowledge the inheritance and heritage of KUNGFU to sage BODHIDHARMA, a prince from kanchipuram(please note - intention to mention is that weapons' practice spread from South India). History of attempted invasion is there in the history as follows 1. 1st Babur in 600AD(not the 1480AD Babur) to Kerala, 2.Tippu to Kerala, 3.Eustachius DeLannoy - Dutch invasion to Kerala and many more, but all were driven out of this land, and at last the british also were driven out because of the master brain of another Nair named "Gopalakrishnan Nair" Who lead the Indian Naval Mutiny at 1946. The invasion to Kerala is just an assumption without logic.

The phrase "Rise of matrileneal kingdom" is a false usage. It has scientific reason. Matriarchal system is the best known endogamous system which can preserve the DNA codes attributing to physical charecteristics. As Nair clan is the Nagavanshi KSHATRIYA clan, it is obvious that physical is as important as virtuousness and intellect. And, great contributing fact is that no other community in the world has heritage of martial arts and matriarchial system together to cite an original location other than Kerala as the adobe of Nagas, most specifically adobe of The Great Anantha Naga.

More clearly pointing references are about to be produced. Vekramaditya (talk) 10:25, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

POV tag

The article does not discuss about the conflicts they had with other castes and polyandry among Nair women in sufficient detail. Please feel free to remove the tag after these issues are addressed. --CarTick 15:18, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

• (1) Details about conflicts: Given in caste system.

• (2) Polyandry: Covered in Ceremonies article.

So no need to expand them even further. Suresh.Varma.123 (talk) 15:36, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

it is not enough. it needs to be discussed here and more elaborately. The lead is totally POV. It lacks a lot of notable information including polyandry. --CarTick 15:40, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

it is pretty much enough.btwn Tick would you care to explain some rather bad faith edits such has overplaying polyandry and removing cited edits.LinguisticGeek 15:52, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

removal of cited edits? i have explained enough in your and my page. i still havent gotten the page number from you for the McLeans's book. hope u will get to it soon. --CarTick 15:55, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

i am not suprised. read Upper cloth revolt and Polyandry in India, summary of Nair relevant information from both the articles need to be included. there are plenty of references you will find there. --CarTick 16:02, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Upper Cloth revolt does not have anything to do with Nairs. It involved Nadars and British Travancore. If it should be included in any articles, then include them in the Nadar or Travancore articles. Also, polyandry is nonexistent now and non-important earlier. Already it is mentioned in the article, and if needed can be mentioned in the main polyandry article.Kshatriya.Knight (talk) 16:11, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

well polyandry is linked to maintain the page size to the optimum and the upper cloth revolt is rather fit to show the history of the opressed castes.wasn't exactly a big event in the nair history was it ? and i haven't exactly been convinced with your explanation on overplaying polyandry ? even without citation ? the citation you removed was of keralaonlinetourism.com if you have forgotten. LinguisticGeek 16:08, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

That is POV to remove negative information in the pretext of keeping page size low.--CarTick 16:15, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Why you are so interested in adding "negative information" here? It seems that you are targeting this article in bad faith. Upper cloth Revolt and Polyandry..... Upper Cloth Revolt is known as "Shannar Lahala" in Malayalam. It was a rebellion by Christian Nadars of Kerala against the British. So add it to the Nadar page, not here. And polyandry.... although it was practised by most of the other castes like Ezhavas, it was quite rare and was prevalent in only a few areas. Shannon1488 (talk) 18:44, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

pov supported by three users ?.and polyandry is negative lol .i thought nairs were rather proud of their matriarchal woman dominated culture,infact they even brag above it when they hear the frequent news reports of dowry deaths and female infactcide in a male chauvinistic society like india.LinguisticGeek 16:21, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

apparently that is subjective. so. let us include it in neutral tone. if not, the POV tag goes back. --CarTick 16:33, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

if you cant convince me about the reliability of the nairsofkerala.blog.co.uk and keralaonlinetouris.com websites and page numbers of McLean's book, i will take the liberty to remove information attributed to these sources. --CarTick 17:03, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

This is perhaps the first time in the history of wikipedia that a POV tag is added because "not enough derogatory information" is included within the article. As responded by several users above, the tagging is purely based on bad faith and doesn't make any commonsense. Polyandry was prevalent only in a very few areas of Kerala and adding it to this article doesn't make any logic. Also, if it has to be included, then it can be included in the ceremonies and customs article. But after taking a look at CarTick's recent edit history and the discussion in the Nadar talk page where tons of abuse is hurled against Nairs, it all make sense.Shannon1488 (talk) 19:14, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

The POV tag was utter nonsense. By the way.... I took a look at the Nadar article. Even basic information like the fact that Nadars are classified as MBC (Most Backward Caste) by the TN government is missing.

Coming back to the topic, as noted above Nairs were not involved in the Shannar Rebellion of 19th century, nor was polyandry common among Nairs except for those in South Malabar. So there is no need to change anything in the article at present. Chandrakantha.Mannadiar (talk) 02:03, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

User:CarTick subjective? you mean polyandry is negative? and would be derogatory to nairs.and you also want to include that?.so does that mean that you edits are Anti-Nair and Anti-women?.btwn since we are on the issue of social customs and maintaining npov some users are pointing out your tagging of this article stems from your ethnic/caste loyalties and hence biased.would you like to respond to these allegations ? .LinguisticGeek 02:57, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

some more famous nairs!

hi... there are some impressive nair personalities on the main page, i have some more suggestions.. 1.MGR. 2.KAY KAY the singer is a nair from trichur. 3. capt lakshmi sehgal. 4.sivathanu pillai. 5. rajan pillai. 6. nina pillai( rajan pillai's wife). 7. m n nambiar.( tamil film villain of yesteryear.). 8. padmini ( of the travancore sisters).

also many of the current crop of malayalam film actors may be nairs, but we dont know... so your comments and suggestions.are welcome. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vivwiki (talk • contribs) 16:23, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

List of Nairs - Axxn (talk) 16:38, 5 May 2010 (UT

Surprising that the photograph of Priyadarshan, Film Director, is not included , while those of much less famous are shown. Poovachal Khader (talk) 19:29, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Now that ONV is awarded the Jnanpith, it is time his picture too is included in the coverpage.For that matter, none of the Jnanpith Awardees save M T Vasudevan Nair figures in the photogallery, despite that all of them were Nairs, i.e. barring S K Pottekat. (Nairs or not, there were more deserving writers who were not awarded the Jnanpith, the late Kamala Surayya being one of these- not to mention Vaikom Muhammed Basheer, VKN and Karur ) Poovachal Khader (talk) 12:22, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

questionable sources

the article is pretty much in a mess. these are some of the questionable sources used in the article. some of them may be ok. If the issues can not be resolved here, we can take it to WP:RS/N. --CarTick 17:03, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

• http://www.nairs.in/acha_a.htm (70)
• http://www.usadojo.com/styles/about-kalari.htm (58)
• http://www.everyculture.com/South-Asia/Nayar-History-and-Cultural-Relations.html (12)
• http://www.keralapolicehistory.com/trvpol1.html (11)
• http://www.nairs.in/classifications.htm (46)
• http://www.mangalorean.com/news.php?newstype=local&newsid=178348 (45)
• http://nairsofkerala.blog.co.uk/2008/03/12/theories-of-origin-3860390/ (40)
• http://www.enskalari.org.in/kalari.htm (53)

apparantely the issue is resolved all users are against your pov considering your recent bad faith edits on the article.also all the above links you mentioned are used for rather non controversial stuff on the article.LinguisticGeek 01:37, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't see any questionable sources above except for the one linked to blog.co.uk. Other sources are reliable. Chandrakantha.Mannadiar (talk) 01:59, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

yea right. all users are against my POV. :) --CarTick 02:57, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

SPA ? User:CarTick off lately your edits seem to be so.LinguisticGeek 03:07, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

• Well, the Nairs one (and the other one that's from it) appears to be notable and reliable, from this page. And I would say right off the bat that the one that has the word "blog" in the address is not reliable.

The dojo one is iffy...i'm leaning toward unreliable on that one.

The Everyculture one is also unreliable, as it has no about page to give us any info about it or even a link to anything outside the contained website. It could be anyone's personal website, so we have to say it is unreliable.

The Kerala Police one is probably reliable, but any information from it should be taken with a grain of salt, as it eseentially acts as a primary source for its police information, making it less reliable than a secondary source.

The Mangalorean appears to be reliable, as far as I can tell, being a news site.

ENS Kalari is also acting as a primary source, so also not as reliable as a secondary source.

In summary, the Blog and the Everyculture one are unreliable. The Dojo, Kerala Police, and ENS Kalari are primary sources, so not as reliable as secondary source counterparts, and the Nairs one and the Mangalorean news site appear to be reliable. I recommend that the Blog and the Everyculture links are removed from the article. Silverseren^C 03:33, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm going to wait another day, but if I don't get a response by then, I guess i'll just go and remove those two references myself. :/ Silverseren^C 18:46, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

thanks. please go ahead. I dont have the stomach (atleast not now) for fighting the single purpose accounts in this article advocating Nair and Kshatriya related articles in general. This article is no exception. all Indians caste articles have its share of POV warriors. --CarTick 00:54, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

I know what that's like. I've had to deal with conflicts on religious articles, which I think might even be worse than this. Silverseren^C 02:11, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Okay, i've removed the blog source and the everyculture source. Feel free to let me know if there are any other issues. Silverseren^C 02:15, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I am generally skeptical about websites in existence for the promotion of a cause or community. It doesnt give any sense of authority when one reads the disclaimer page of www.nairs.in page. These days, we have web sites which exists purely for the promotion of a lot of indian castes. While the editors here are quite comfortable to use websites such as nairs.in, they wouldnt let me add the historical existence of polyandry among Nairs. Even a casual search in google books or google scholar or jstor will give so many references. They will come up with lame excuses from "the link already exists in See also section" to that the information is kept out to keep the page size in check and covered in other pages. --CarTick 16:33, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Is there another page for it? I mean, if there is enough information to make another page, then one should be made. The one paragraph you linked to is rather short, is there anyway that it could be expanded to form its own article, is there more of a history to the polyandry that you could add? If so, I would advise making a separate page and then making a short section on this page that links to that one. Silverseren^C 16:36, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

There is no separate page, but i believe there is enough information for a separate page. will hopefully get to it one of these days. i copied it from Polyandry in India, even that article still incomplete. for the record, i had created the article myself long time ago. --CarTick 16:42, 25 September 2010 (UTC)