Talk:Mohnyin Thado/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: ArcticSeeress (talk · contribs) 14:28, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello Hybernator. I'm ArcticSeeress, and I'll be your reviewer for this nomination. I look forward to working with you. I see this has been nominated for quite a while, but looks like you'll finally be able to get your DYK promoted. ArcticSeeress (talk) 14:28, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

Initial comments

• Foreign-language text should be surrounded by the lang template.
• The references would be easier to navigate with the use of the harv template.
• The lead does not seem to require most of its citations, as they are already verified in the body.

Early life

• King Kyawswa I of Pinya's reign is in the wrong century, it should be 1344–1350

• [Hybernator]: Done.

• The king gave Nansi the title of Udein - Does this have an acceptable English translation? You may also want to note that this is what he was referred to as, as this is what you do in the article. A reader unfamiliar with a system like this may be confused by the following sentences.

• [Hybernator]: Udein is a Burmese pronunciation of Udinna. I don't know what it means.

• the title of Udein (ဥဒိန်, Pali: Udinna), and Inbe - On initial read-through, this makes it seem like Inbe is a title, but when the reader reads the next line, it can cause confusion. I'd suggest replacing "and" with something like "in addition to", which makes them feel more distinct from each other.

• [Hybernator]: I rewrote the sentence.

• Link appanage

• [Hybernator]: Done.

• a young Udein - Again, this wording may confuse readers unfamiliar with certain naming conventions. You should just write "when he was young", as the current phrasing makes it seem like a different person.

• [Hybernator]: I rephrased it.

• Link Page (servant)

• [Hybernator]: Done.

• pointing out that Udein was still too young - You could just write "he" here.

• [Hybernator]: Done.

• who faced serval several challenges - Double word

• [Hybernator]: Removed.

• Udein was one of Min Swe's loyalists in 1400 when the prince ascended the throne - Replace "the prince" with just "he".

• [Hybernator]: I think we should keep "the prince" because "he" could refer to either one.

Early career

• Link rainy season

• [Hybernator]: Done.

• His star - What does this mean?

• [Hybernator]: His star means his prominence, importance. Anyway, I've replaced it with "career".

• the king also gave Shin Myat Hla - Perhaps replace the word "gave" here, considering this is a person. Most people would assume that she is the indirect object (i.e. the receiver) instead of the direct object (what's given) when reading this sentence, so perhaps something like "handed over"?

• [Hybernator]: Giving someone in marriage should be fine. I've reworded the sentence for better clarity. Please review.

• What does "junior queen" mean here? Did he have other queens? Perhaps it's better to just write "one of his queens" in that case.

• [Hybernator]: Thanks for pointing this out. I shouldn't assume everyone knows the Burmese system of royal consorts. I've reworded the sentence.

• For his part - What does this mean? I don't see what function it has in this sentence, as it works just as well without it.

• [Hybernator]: For his part is meant to convey Thado's part. The king gave him an assignment, and Thado for his part was initially concerned about the job.

• the 30-year-old commander - Just say "Thado, now 30 years old,"

• [Hybernator]: Reworded it as Thado.

Sawbwa of Mohnyin

• at Mohnyin - "in Mohnyin"

• [Hybernator]: Done. (Btw, "at Mohnyin" was meant to convey as one of his stops to the throne as part of the sentence.)

• and use his northern base to take over the Ava throne itself in 1426 - How? I know this is written elsewhere in the article, but how did "using his northern base" allow him to "take over the throne"?

• [Hybernator]: The section-level lede is meant to be a summary of a large section. I didn't put in citations because the points are mentioned later in the section. Anyway, I've added two citations.

• His successful rule at Mohnyin earned him the moniker Mohnyin Thado (lit. Thado of Mohnyin) - This claim needs a citation, as it's not noted anywhere else in the article.
• the name by which he is best known in Burmese history - This also needs a citation.

• [Hybernator]: Added a note -- with chronicle and academic sources for both "Mohnyin Thado" and "Mohnyin Min Taya".

Chinese incursions (1412-1415)

• It might be better to write "defense" instead of "bulwark". A lot of people won't know what a bulwark is.

• [Hybernator]: Replaced it with defense. (I still prefer bulwark as I think it fits better with the sentence.)

• Replace "twin" with "two".

• [Hybernator]: Done.

• Replace "nearer" with "nearby", or even remove it entirely, as the following statement makes more sense.
• cis-Salween - What does this mean? A better wording might be "states on the west of the Salween river".

• [Hybernator]: Nearer or cis-Salween Shan states (and farther / trans-Salween) are common terms used in Burmese history books. But as you're pointing out, most readers might not be aware of the terms. I've removed both nearer and cis-Salween since the sentence already says the states that ringed Ava.

• Ava's sway - Is it better to just write "control" here?

• [Hybernator]: Done.

• Claiming that the Shan states Ava took over in 1405–1406 were its tributaries - "the Shan states that Ava took over"

• [Hybernator]: Good point. Done.

• Link to Tributary system of China

• [Hybernator]: Done.

• prioritize the ongoing war effort against Hanthawaddy - Add "in the south" after this sentence.

• [Hybernator]: Done.

• History shows that - This sentence isn't necessary. The entire article is about history, not just this tiny part.

• [Hybernator]: Done.

• Chronicles recount - Which chronicles?

• [Hybernator]: The main royal chronicles -- Maha Yazawin, Yazawin Thit, and Hmannan. I cited Hmannan, as well as Fernquest. Anyway, I've removed it.

• the top Hsenwi commanders, the sawbwa of Hsenwi, son of the sawbwa and son-in-law of the sawbwa, on their respective war elephants - Are the sawbwa and their two sons the top commanders, or were they simply all in battle alongside the top commanders. If they were the commanders, you should write it as "the top Hsenwi commanders – the sawbwa of Hsenwi, alongside his son and son-in-law – on their respective war elephants" for more clarity. I've also rewritten it slightly so sawbwa isn't written so much.

• [Hybernator]: Yes, it could be written clearer. Reworded it.

• Link war elephants

• [Hybernator]: Done.

• According to G.E. Harvey - Who is G.E. Harvey? The average reader needs context to understand why their comment matters.

• [Hybernator]: Added historian.

• the star of the campaign - What does this mean? Who considered him this?

• [Hybernator]: Added "according to the chronicles". The note explains the chronicle narrative (Yazawin Thit Vol. 1 2012: 252–253) and (Hmannan Vol. 2 2003: 29–30) as well as historians' views.

Post-Chinese war to Ava succession crisis (1415-1425)

• Rewrite the section title to "Post-Chinese war and Ava succession crisis (1415–1425)"

• [Hybernator]: It's not "and". Reworded as "Post-war period to Ava succession crisis (1415–1425)"

• The incursions into Ava territory resumed with the Luchuan–Pingmian campaigns in the early 1440s. - This needs a citation.

• [Hybernator]: done.

• By Minkhaung's death in 1421 - "When the king died in 1421", sounds better

• [Hybernator]: done.

• the successor - Add "to the Ava throne"

• [Hybernator]: done.

• youngster in fief -What does this mean?

• [Hybernator]: See below.

• Thado's first childhood fief - Might be better to write as "the one Thado had been given as a child by the previous king"

• [Hybernator]: Reworded it as "gave the youngster the fief of Inbe, which was also Thado's former fief."

• according to the chronicles - Again, which chronicles?

• [Hybernator]: Removed.

• and arranged by Queen Shin Bo-Me - Add a comma before this sentence

• [Hybernator]: done.

• second ranked - "second-ranked"

• [Hybernator]: done.

• Add a comma before but began

• [Hybernator]: done.

• sawbwa of Wuntho - "as sawbwa of Wuntho"

• [Hybernator]: done.

Successful revolt

• deliberate pace - In what way was it "deliberate". Slow?

• [Hybernator]: Yes. I've rewritten the sentence as "slow, methodical, and deliberate" pace, and added a citation for the quote.

Reign

Accession

• He appointed his 15-year-old eldest son einshei min (heir apparent) with the title of Minye Kyawswa - Is there a reason he gave him the same name as the commander?

• [Hybernator]: Minye Kyawswa was a royal title, not a personal name. Thado gave his two eldest sons the titles worn by the two eldest sons of his lord Minkhaung: Minye Kyawswa and Thihathu. King Minye Kyawswa I of Ava was "named" after Crown Prince Minye Kyawswa, and King Narapati I of Ava, whose prior title as Viceroy of Prome was Thihathu, was named after King Thihathu of Ava.

Consolidation of power

• Queen Bo-Me despite her contempt for Thado became a queen of his - Perhaps rewrite this. My suggestion: "Despite Bo-Me's content for the new king, she became one of his queens."

• [Hybernator]: Reworded.

• who were holding out at Pakhan - "in Pakhan"

• [Hybernator]: Done.

• a fateful decision - What does "fateful" mean her? Could you not just write "the decision to"

• [Hybernator]: As readers will soon find out, Minye Kyawhtin would attempt to topple Thado, and remain a thorn to Ava.

• his deceased lord King Minkhaung - Comma between "lord" and "king"

• [Hybernator]: Done.

• Thado's eldest son the crown prince - Commas around "the crown prince"

• [Hybernator]: Done.

• the son's advice - "his son's advice"

• [Hybernator]: Done.

Start of rebellions and Pegu's shadow war

• What does "shadow war" mean here?

• [Hybernator]: Means an undeclared war. As explained in the text, Binnya Ran I of Hanthawaddy occupied Tharrawaddy and environs in 1427 during the Ava succession crisis, and supported the rebellions of Toungoo and Taungdwin.

• History shows that - Again, all of this is history. Remove this line. Seeing as this line would end up rather short, how about writing "His son's suspicions were proven correct when the two governors [etc.]"

• [Hybernator]: Removed.

• whose life Thado spared - Make this a passive statement instead of an active one: "whose life was spared by Thado"

• [Hybernator]: Reworded. (I usually make a point not to write in passive voice but I suppose it's fine here.)

• back in August - This sentence feels too colloquial. Write "earlier in August"

• [Hybernator]: Done.

• refused to fade away like his uncle Tarabya - This also feels colloquial. I'm not sure what the source says, so I can't come up with a better wording without knowing the specifics.

• [Hybernator]: Reworded as: "Unlike his uncle Tarabya, the prince, the eldest son of Crown Prince Minye Kyawswa (r. 1406–1415), refused to relinquish his claim to the throne."

• He promptly left Thissein for Onbaung where he promptly received Le Than Bwa's backing - "promptly" is used twice in this sentence. Remove one of them.

• [Hybernator]: Done.

Enfeebled response

• This feels like a strange title. Maybe just rename it to "Response to rebellion"

• [Hybernator]: Changed to "Weak response to rebellions"

• What is a "defensive crouch"? Perhaps rewrite to "became more cautious"

• [Hybernator]: Reworded as "After the close call, Thado pursued a largely defensive policy."

• Pinle in 1428–1429 - Change this to "Pinle in 1428 and 1429", per MOS:RANGE

• [Hybernator]: Changed to: "... to Pinle in the 1428–1429 dry season, ... ".

• southern and northern frontiers—appointing - Just use a comma instead of a dash

• [Hybernator]: done.

War with Hanthawaddy

• The combined forces—Pegu contributed two thirds of the overall 15,000-strong force - This feels like a pretty strange sentence. Perhaps just put their contribution in a note instead.

• [Hybernator]: Reworded the sentence and added a note.

• was caught flatfooted - Just write "caught off guard".

• [Hybernator]: Done.

• monarch-to-monarch - I'd just use "face-to-face" here.

• [Hybernator]: Thado wanted to negotiate only with a monarch (Binnya Ran) -- and definitely not with Thinkhaya of Toungoo, who according to Thado was a rebel governor and not a monarch.

• Chronicles say - Which chroncicles?

• [Hybernator]: Removed.

• ordered the head of the delegation Maha Thamun executed - This sentence confused me at first, as "ordering the head" of someone is usually euphemistic for killing someone, but then it continues with "of the delegation Maha Thamun executed", which doesn't make much sense. I'd rewrite this to "ordered that the head of the delegation, Maha Thamun, be executed"

• [Hybernator]: Rewritten as "... ordered the head of the Hanthawaddy delegation, Maha Thamun, executed".

• Only after the ceremony that he turned attention to the war - This sentence lacks a primary verb. Perhaps write: "Only after the ceremony did he turn his attention to the war". By the way, what ceremony?

• [Hybernator]: Updated as "... pagoda completion ceremony..."

Withdrawal from governing

• How is the quote on the left relevant here?

• [Hybernator]: It's an eyewitness account of the first known European to visit Burma. It contributes to the article.

• But Thado did not make use of the concession to reclaim Toungoo - Don't start a sentence with a conjunction. A possible rewrite: "Thado did not, however, make use of Ran's concession in order to reclaim Toungoo"

• [Hybernator]: Done.

• His attention reverted to more temple construction - Suggestion: "He turned his attention back to constructing more temples"

• [Hybernator]: Reworded as "He resumed constructing more temples, ..."

• Link rump state under rump kingdom

• [Hybernator]: done.

• According to a preliminary calculation by Michael Aung-Thwin - Who is Michael Aung-Thwin? The reader would need more context here to understand why he is important.

• [Hybernator]: Added "historian" to the text. (Michael Aung-Thwin was Emeritus Professor of Asian History at the University of Hawaii. Recently passed.)

• may have cost the royal treasury, 1.62 million - Remove the comma

• [Hybernator]: done.

• Should kyats be pluralised here?

• [Hybernator]: Yes. It's kyats in (Aung-Thwin 2017: 88).

• How much is 1.62 million ticals? Someone unfamiliar with South-East Asian weight systems would not know how much that is.

• [Hybernator]: Added (25,453 kg).

• But the army's strength - Again, don't start a sentence with a conjunction. Perhaps replace it with "however".

• [Hybernator]: Replaced with "However".

• The Hanthawaddy king broke the 1431 treaty - When did he do this?
• He did nothing when Binnya Ran openly seized Toungoo in 1436. - Perhaps a better way of wording this would be: "Likewise, he did not do anything when [...]"
• Put "and" between "army" and "placed"

• [Hybernator]: Rewritten as: "He did nothing in 1436 when Binnya Ran, in breach of the 1431 treaty, openly marched to Toungoo with an army, and placed Saw Oo on the Toungoo throne."

Recalibration of the calendar

• I feel like a lot of the quote on the right may not be necessary.

• [Hybernator]: The latter 75% of the quote, which talks about donations, provides the context. The king was trying to address the problems of his kingdom by renumbering the calendar, and by doing meritorious deeds. Those of us familiar with the Burmese culture might recognize the whole endeavour as part of a yadaya ritual. The calendar change and the merit deeds were part and parcel of his effort to nullify the bad karma he believed was affecting the kingdom. And this came from a contemporary inscription.

• believe on - "believe in"

• [Hybernator]: done.

Death and succession

• Link larceny

• [Hybernator]: done.

• marrying off his concubines, caught cheating, to their lovers - This sentence feels strange. Perhaps reword it to: "marrying off his concubines that were caught cheating to their lovers".

• [Hybernator]: done.

• He was 59 - This sentence feels too short. Add something like "at the time of his death".

• [Hybernator]: I think most people will get it. The paragraph has talked about his death.

Legacy

• at Ava - "in Ava"

• [Hybernator]: Reworded as "based out of Ava".

• "apogee" - Don't include a quoted phrase without attributing it to someone. Perhaps a better wording would be "greatest height"?

• [Hybernator]: "apogee" comes from (Aung-Thwin 2017: 90–91). I've removed (Harvey 1925: 97) as a citation from the sentence, and kept (Aung-Thwin 2017: 90–91).

• history shows - Again, remove this wording.

• [Hybernator]: done.

Administration & Military service

• Per MOS:COLLAPSE, tables should not "conceal article content by deafult upon page loading". It's fine for them to be able to be collapsed, but they should be open by default.

• [Hybernator]: done.

• Einda Thiri was Thado's younger daughter - This needs a citation

• [Hybernator]: done.

• future King Narapati I of Ava - Citation needed

• [Hybernator]: done.

• Saw Oo was a vassal of Hanthawaddy. - Citation needed

• [Hybernator]: done.

Historiography

• You don't need to write [sic] here, that is already assumed.

• [Hybernator]: I usually add [sic] to items that are internally inconsistent and/or so different from other sources. This way, readers could for example see that the length of reign of 12 years for a reign that lasted from 1427 to 1438 is not a typo but as found in the source. Anyway, I'll defer to you here. I've removed all the instances of [sic].

Family

• Again, this diagram should not be automatically collapsed.

• [Hybernator]: Done.

• The eldest child, Thado had a younger brother and a younger sister. - Citation needed

• [Hybernator]: Citations added.

• What is the difference between a "chief queen" and a "principal queen". To me, "chief" and "principal" both mean the same.

• [Hybernator]: In the Burmese royal consort system, there's only one chief queen, typically followed by three principal/senior queens. I've updated with "senior queen".

Bibliography

I will quickly check the reliability of the sources used in the article.

• Aung-Thwin 2017 - Published by the University of Hawai'i Y
• Aung tun 2009 - Professor of history at several institutions Y

• Goh 2009 - Published by the Institue of South East Asian Studies Y (you might want to fix the publisher name here; you forgot "Studies"

• [Hybernator]: Added.

• Fernquest 2006 (both) - Published by the University of London Y
• Harvey 1983 - Later published by Routledge Y
• Htin Aung 1967 - Published by Cambridge University Press Y
• The Maha Yazawin is a significant chronicle of Burmese history Y
• The edition of Alaungpaya Ayedawbon used here was published by the Ministry of Culture Y
• Lieberman 2014 - published by Princeton University Press Y
• Lieberman 2003 - published by Cambridge University Press Y
• Maha Sithu (2012) - Burmese historian Y
• Nyein Maung - - You cite "Archaeological Department" as the publisher. A university's department? Which one?

• [Hybernator]: The volumes were published by the Ministry of Culture. Nyein Maung was the lead editor. I've added "Ministry of Culture" in the citation entry.

• Pan Hla 2005 - Accreditted scholar Y
• Zatadawbon Yazawin - Republished by a trustworthy government body Y
• Hmannan Yazawin - Republished by government body Y
• Sandamala Linkara 1931 - - I'm not sure where this is even used in the article

• [Hybernator]: Thanks for pointing this out. I'd abbreviated the citation as "RRT". I've rewritten as "Rakhine Razawin Thit". The chronicle is sometimes translated as "New Chronicle of Rakhaing": see: page 345 of this paper. Note: The author Jaques Leider uses the Pali spelling "Candamala-Lankara" instead of Burmese "Sandamala Linkara".

• Sein Lwin Lay 1968 - - I cannot locate this book

• [Hybernator]: Not all books in Burmese are catalogued in an international database. Fortunately, it's mentioned in this book by Noel F. Singer (a Burma historian) published by the University of Michigan.

• Than Tun (both) - Professor at the University of Mandalay. Y

Overall, the references check out, but there are two that I cannot verify, and one that I don't see used anywhere in the article. Perhaps I'm just blind, but if you can help me find these, then I could potentially verify them.

Overall assessment

The article has a lot of issues with prose and has issues with MOS compliance, but these can be ironed out fairly quickly. Most of the content of the article is verifiable and cited to reliable sources, but there are some places that lack citations. It doesn't have any obvious original research or copyright violations (though I cannot confirm that since I don't speak Burmese). I will assume good faith here, considering you've been on Wikipedia for 15 years. The article is sufficiently broad in its coverage without veering off into unrelated territory. The article is written neutrally. It has a lot of media, but perhaps the first quote isn't necessary, as it doesn't seem to be related to the section it is in. Most of them are free to use, but the map of Ming China may be a copyright violation, as the underlying map may be copied from a mapping service that doesn't allow such usage. There doesn't seem to have been any issues so far with it, so I'll take it that it is fine. In any case, the article is also stable, so if the above issues are addressed, then I'd feel comfortable passing this article. There are quite a lot of comments, so feel free to take your time here. ArcticSeeress (talk) 22:16, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi ArcticSeeress, thanks again for the thorough review. It's definitely refreshing to hear from someone with a fresh pair of eyes, and attention to detail. I've updated the article based on your feedback. I think I've addressed/answered most of your points. Please take a look again. Thanks. Hybernator (talk) 01:16, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

I've taken another look through the article, and everything seems good to go. Good work! ArcticSeeress (talk) 14:53, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

• ArcticSeeress, thanks again for the thorough review. Best, Hybernator (talk) 17:15, 12 June 2022 (UTC)