Talk:Modesto, California/Archive 1

Archive 1

Demographics

The numbers add up to 106.90% total... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.95.251.21 (talk) 19:18, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

?

"There are a number of car shops in the downtown area that manufacture and transport new cars to be loaded to large ports" sentence removed from the industry section for now. If anyone else can decipher exactly what that means and translate it, please...I doubt there are car factories in downtown Modesto, which is the literal meaning. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hamiltondaniel (talk • contribs) 05:33, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

It probably has something to do with all the auto thefts in Modesto. KevinOKeeffe (talk) 07:31, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

@KevinOKeeffe: FYI, I corrected your spelling of "Modesto". It was spelt "Modlesto" or something like that. Maccore Henni _{Mii! Pictochat Mii!} 17:10, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

Copy Editing Request

Please refer to the [Manual of Style] for instructions on how to improve your article. There are numerous grammatical and punctuation errors. Do not simply delete the { { copyedit } } tag -- correct the errors. If you do not recognize the errors, leave the copyedit tag in - this will put your article on a list of articles to be corrected, and you will soon find your article submitted to a peer review process. The result will be a highly polished and professional article.

I corrected the sections that had major grammatical, punctuation, spelling, and applicability issues. The rest seems fine, so I removed the tag. --Henitsirk (talk) 03:38, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Mark Spitz

He has 9 olympic gold medals. 7 in 72 an 2 in 68. Gabor Sas —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.141.99.84 (talk) 16:45, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Neighborhoods

Those are not recognized neighborhoods in Modesto. Recognized neighborhoods are Eastridge, La Loma, Airport, The Village, Del Rio, Wycliffe, Sherwood Forest, Niraghi Lakes, etc. The 'neighborhoods' listed are merely geographical breakdowns of the city rather than enclaves recognized by the population.

I removed the section entirely. It's really not encyclopedic in the first place, and the information wasn't really good-quality information, either.mzellman 04:04, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Grammar is important too. Oh, and $ isn't a letter, it's a symbol, and symbols such as $ do not belong randomly placed in the middle of words. Nuck Chorris (talk) 04:50, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

That wasn't me. I deleted the insertion, since it was defamatory to me. mzellman (talk) 16:45, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Famous People

Is it really necessary to mention the rapper Wig on this page? If he's a famous rapper, yes, but I don't think a local rapper (as I presume he is from the description) qualifies for a mention in this Wiki article.

Shouldn't famous people from Modesto include only those who can claim nativity to Modesto? --RebekahThorn 20:35, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I think it might be a good idea to split it up into two sections: people born/rasied in modesto, and people living in modesto curretnly. Maybe one for people who lived in Modesto for a little while, too, but that one isn't needed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nuck Chorris 0 (talk • contribs) 19:04, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I noticed Gary Condit is listed both here and in the Ceres article. He is the only entry in the latter. I'm not sure which he belongs to, but surely not both at once? 69.106.153.73 19:00, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

The city also boasts a famous group of ninjas: Leonardo, Raphael, Michelangelo, Donatello and the devious Shredder. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.87.209.73 (talk) 07:38, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Modesto Anarchists

I've lived in Modesto my entire life (30 years) and I have literally NEVER seen or even heard of an animal rights, environmental, anti-war, protest. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.228.30.29 (talk) 10:16, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

I think its important to show all of Modestos features. The DAAA collective works with the community in many ways(I.E. feeding homeless) and just because they do so in unothadox ways you (whoever) keep deleting Modesto anarchists from the links.

I didn't think Modesto was some sort of hotbed of anarchist dissent...oh, wait, it isn't.

I don't agree. It gives the Impression that this a major group in the city which I don't think it is (it's just a handful of misanthropic malcontents). It's fine to have it on, but with the lack of any other non-mainstream groups , along with official site,s gives the wrong idea of what modesto is and isn't. But you (above) make a point of including it, so I'll stop deleting it.

What's considered "mainstream"? We have a city council, police force, etc, that is represented by and large by upper class, white (60% of the population), and wealthy interests, while the city is largely poor (median income of $60,000), working class, and of color (despite census bureau figures to the contrary at 26% hispanic & 15% other than hispanic). Who's the real non-mainstream group?

I love the addition of information on the tallow plant, this is the real modesto highlight. And yes, as I recall, the Modesto Anarchists are a major player in Modesto, please leave them on with information related to the very famous rapper, Wig.

Is a $60,000 income really considered poor? What royal family did you come from? I'm sorry, but you can't convince me that a police force etc. is represented only by those who bring in, what, six figures? It should all be about general representation, and those groups are just that. If we were to list every interest group in Modesto we would end up with an unreadable article--not to offend the underwater basket weavers. It's not that the DAAA doesn't have it's place, but I don't think that place is in an encyclopedia article about the city they serve.

Modesto is not San Francisco, in that it's not really a hotbed of political activity. I'm guessing here, but I don't think a large majority of Modesto residents have heard of the local anarchist movement, copwatch or the DAAA. A simple archive search of the Modesto Bee webpage turns up zero article hits. I agree that mention of these groups/activities here, in virtual isolation, elevates them to a kind of false importance. Philfan22 21:58, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Modesto anarchists have actually been covered in The Bee a number of times. Thus, it would be easy for someone who wanted to write about them in the article to establish their notability. They should probably be covered; I can't think of a lot of other aspects of Modesto that outsiders would find interesting. 137.165.166.72 (talk) 01:58, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Introduction

I think the introduction is way too long. People will lose interest if it is that long. It is also very choppy and the information should be put into sections, not in the intro. I would do this myself, but I wanted to run it by the dicussion group first for it is a major edit. Rayana fazli 17:32, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Seconded! --KBrown 17:38, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

All done fixing the intro. I hope it looks better. Rayana fazli 02:00, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm changing the Intro paragraph's mention of "so-many hours from...(wherever)" to "(such-and-such) miles from (wherever)...etc., putting it less than two hours from (all the wherevers)" mzellman 04:04, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Hick town?

Is Modesto really a hick town?

Lived there in the later 1970s and early 1980s. Was a hick town then. Now, along with much of California, thanks to the invasion by millions of barbarians from the south, Modesto is increasingly becoming Mexican territory with all the horrors that entails.68.13.191.153 22:48, 11 November 2006

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As to the above comment, I too lived in and still live in Modesto. I moved here as a young child in 1964. Modesto wasn't a hick town then or now. Some of the city leaders have in the past been very agriculturally aware, but Modesto ceased being a hick town long before I was born. For instance, Modesto and Turlock had the foresight to secure water rights to the major river running through it in the early 20th century and to build Don Pedro dam and then build a hydro-electric generator into the dam. It had to fight The City of San Francisco for these rights, and still has to occasionally force SF to release water from Hetch Hetchy down the rivers instead of piping it into their lake system on the coast. Modesto Irrigation District remains as one of the few municipality owned power generation utilities along with Turlock and Oakdale locally. Modesto has had centrally controlled adaptive traffic management since the 70's. Modesto's traffic management system also controls the city of Ceres' major traffic intersections as well. As for the Mexicans living here, there have always been Mexicans here. Hell, the city was named by a Mexican. The illegal problem is far worse in Salinas, Gilroy and Watsonville who have designated themselves "Sanctuary Cities"and actively prevent the INS from deporting local illegals. The section that says the Gallo Center is "Critically Acclaimed", By whom may I ask? It's ugly and the acoustics are barn-like. It's a plain brown-stone building.

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(UTC)

Let's leave out the politically correct knee-jerk rhetoric. Regarding this; "...in an unpermitted march, to show support for immigrant rights." C'mon.... legal immigrants have plenty of rights. The marchers want MILLIONS of additional ILLEGAL ALIENS to continue prancing in so as to convert ALL of California into Mexico.68.13.191.153 22:55, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

To Mr. Bigot here: Mexico = Latin America? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by SaulPerdomo (talk • contribs) 07:24, 26 April 2007 (UTC).

Can we please not be racist? I really hate racism, just as much as I hate idiocy. And Modesto isn't a hick town; its more of a boring and monotonous limbo that you can never escape from. Please try not to insult a town just because it can't grow without a bunch of angry farmers going on a rampage. Nuck Chorris (talk) 04:40, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

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Does Wikipedia have a standard regarding offensive comments like those made above by User:68.13.191.153 ? 173.160.49.206 (talk) 16:51, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Vandalism?

I'm fairly certain that the section on history has been vandalized (king of seals? hmm...). However, I'm on a really slow GPRS connection about to arrive into Sacramento station and don't have the time to look through the past versions to find where the vandalism occurred (my slow glance at the history page seems to indicate it's not the last edit). Can someone else take a peek? cluth 20:16, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

There's a different phrase now, under sights, where it says "South 7th Street View blight comparable to that of a Third World country." Humorous, but hardly useful, except as an indirect warning to stay away. I'm removing it, but if someone would prefer to simply make it more formal/relevant, I'm sure that would be fine. 69.106.153.73 18:53, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

yeah modesto has crime but who gives a fuck the only reason that we have crime is because of the homeless stealin our shit if any other place had tons of bums they would have the same problem so fuck off!!!

Personally I feel that the hobos aren't as bad as the gang activity. I've seen plenty of hobos just walking out in front of my school, minding their own business, while I've seen packs of gang members wandering around the streets of Modesto, making modesto look crappy, with a horrible police force and tons of unhindered gang activity. Also, the homeless only steal our recyclables if we throw them away, while the gang members will steal our car no matter what. BTW, I put a line spacing before the previous post, since the writer apparently left it out. Nuck Chorris (talk) 04:48, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

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You're talking about the local bums, hobo's aren't bums. Foolishfish (talk) 19:06, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

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I was raised for the first few cognitive years of my life in Milpitas...ha, my memories of Milpitas are of the smell of "peach Pits" as peaches laid drying in sulfur on trays in the summer sun....cornfields for days...dairy farms and "Howdy partner days"....small town Milpitas so far from the town it is today. Back then there was just one Chinese restaurant, and the other big restaurant was Cattleman's....Turkey shoots come November, and contests for which house had the best Christmas decorations in December....Back then my dad had a ford truck, painted black, and my sisters and I would ride in the back, bouncing round over the ruts in the road....summers spent in keds shoes or bare footed and lil summer dresses...hair in piggy tails...(not much different than my current summer wear, I guess)....listening for the sound of the ice cream truck, and chatting with the milk man who brought my favourite cottage cheese....

Modesto.

Modesto country side...

Maybe it was these formative years that makes me love the life here in Modesto so much...



It isn't pretty, though you can find beauty if you want to...life is harsh and real...you wanna see poverty? You will find it here, and yes, it is not call Methedesto for no reason at all....view the walking dead...talking to themselves-toothless and looking much older than their years, faces worn by exposure to the elements...you see them everywhere.....just two blocks from where I live is 9th street with it's seedy motels and overweight hookers...taco trucks, and places for truckers to enjoy an afternoon or evening before Heading out on the road again....

There is nothing candy coated about life here for sure....you will not find a billboard advertising the beauty of The Tuolemne river...nor will Modesto ever be a vacation destination...but it is beautiful.

..<img src="http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h27/amberdobson/IMG_0641.jpg" alt="Photobucket" border="0">/">

This mornings sunrise over Modesto.....

If you want to see life in all it's complexities....Heat, dirt, and smells to make you shake your head in wonder--then this is the place for you...lol....If you have never been a mile of a Dairy Farm, you will know it when you finally are....they stink...cow manure and urine...

Hello, Ladies....

That wholesome milk you buy in your pristine carton in your supermarket with it's polished floors originated in a dairy....and they are stinky, messy, muddy places....this is the reality of it....

The fresh veggies you eat, comes from farms where people struggle to grow things in the sandy soil of the Stanislaus valley...water coming in from other places, lacing through the country side ensuring you get your ears of fresh white corn, and cans of "whole roma tomatoes"...packed in canneries going 24 hours a day...

Corn fields of Modesto....

This is Modesto. Sure we have Starbuck's, Jamba Juice, Malls, Brenden theatres, the Gallo center, Walmart, Costco, and lovely upscale restaurants....but not enough to change what Modesto really is...small town. Men still wear cowboy hats and boots while running errands....the amish are big here, and shopping at raleys you will be surrounded by a crazy mix of cowboys, farmers, Okies, Amish, Mexicans, and the new Asians coming in from nearby Stockton....everyone trying to eke out a living drawn by the small town feel, the laid back "howdy-do" atmosphere, and most of all you can live here on a meager wage. Homes are priced fairly, there are jobs if you are not picky, and life can be lived quite simply.

Yes, the population is mostly Mexican, and I happen to enjoy living in an area of diverse cultures...there is crime here, but I blame that more on the lack of police enforcement, than any one culture...people will do what they are allowed to do, and when you are reminded of the "Methedesto" fame...and gang presence, but never supported in removing the blight from the community, then you just give in and join em...

It is still a bit wild west here...but I like it...and I will repeat, there is a wild beauty here...in the river, in the farm life, the raw daily grind...that no starbuck's or feigned civility is going to change.

My loyal chariot......

You drive a jeep, suv, or truck because you honestly need them here...Your pretty lil sportscar is only going to attract attention of the worst kind, and as this is the city with the most car thefts in America...you better leave it well locked up...lol!....

Okay, where am I going with this? Hmmmmm....maybe just far enough to make you realize that your life is what you make it....that there are people living in the "Barrio" with a heartfelt smile on their face....that being surrounded by poverty only gives you a chance to realize, that your life by comparison-isn't so bad....that here there is an opportunity to do something, honest to make life better...that instead of that "mommy and me play date, at the local starbucks" you might try an afternoon at the local homeless shelter and see what life is really about...shocking by the standards of the greater Bay Area, and especially when compared to the white washed cities of Los Gatos, Campbell, etc...

I have been there, done that...give me the challenge of finding peace even in the hard places....give me small town Modesto.

So, I am off to do my day of mostly ordinary errands....see ya round, y'all...lol!Aubielicious (talk) 20:39, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

It has a sister city...

According to this page of Sister Cities International, Modesto does in fact have a sister city: Kurume in Fukuoka Prefecture, Japan. Not sure if anyone noticed that...

0955ADLC 00:19, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

OOPS! Didn't notice some of the text. Sorry!

0955ADLC 19:41, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Modesto.jpg

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other points of interest

I don't think the article makes any reference at all to the fact that Modesto is home to a junior college, Modesto Junior College (mjc.edu). I think Foster Farms is headquartered in Modesto, too, though I'm not sure... Anybody want to expand the article on a really boring city? Maybe put in some crap about how one school didn't even have Air Conditioning until just a year or two ago? Nuck Chorris (talk) 04:22, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, Foster Farms is headquartered in Modesto, according to this page on the Foster Farms Dairy website. Specifically, the last paragraph. I don't really know where I would say that Foster Farms Dairy is based in Modesto, so I'll let somebody else add it, so long as I can get credit right here. Nuck Chorris (talk) 04:34, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

More stuff: The tallest building in the city is most likely the Double Tree Hotel in Downtown; the mall is named vintage Faire Mall, and it is two floors, with a Sears, a Gottshalks, a JC Penny, and Macy's. They're building a new addition, which is said to be done around fall this year. Also, I think that the article should show an image of the Water, Wealth, Contentment, Health arch, since it is one of the most interesting landmarks in the city. Yes, the city is THAT boring. Oh, and the arch is the symbol of the city, like the Hollywood sign represents Hollywood, The White House represents Washington D.C., or the Statue of Liberty represents New York. Nuck Chorris (talk) 05:00, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I think Savemart was also founded in Modesto, no? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.195.154.225 (talk) 04:42, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes Modesto is home to the Save Mart Supermarket chain. They carry just about everything except the save part. Local joke: Q = Where is the save in Save Mart? A = They forgot that part. Save Mart has had a virtual monopoly on food sales in Modesto that is just now on the verge of being broken. If you turn on Oakdale Road from Highway 108 and head south, then at Scenic make a right and follow it to carpenter road you'll pass 6 Save Marts. and that's just those two roads. There are several more Save Marts in Modesto besides. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.6.185.28 (talk) 00:33, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Midwestern Attitudes

The section on Activism is rather misleading as this area often seems a place where Blind Faith is more important than Education, or Caring for that matter. Newsweek described this part of Central California, being like mid-west United States in most ways. It is religiously like the mid-west, the Baptist and other big fundamentalist churches being big forces in the community. The areas industry is agriculturally-based, but still in decline as major employers such as TriValley Growers (largest cannery in the world) go bankrupt. And, major employers such as Proctor and Gamble, Louis Rich, Campbell's Soup, Hershey Chocolate, have left the area. Gallo is a mainstay, and their facility, unmarked from the street, from the air looks like a tank farm. The Gallo family has been good to the town, purchasing the Victorian mansion known as the McHenry Mansion, and helping with the center for performing arts. Generally Modesto has not been good to its historical landmarks until fairly recently. There are few multistory Victorian homes for instance, and almost no multistory brick buildings of any age. The old street trees are nice however, and used to be considered a good place to raise your kids. The new parts of town are mile after mile of block wall bordered boulevards, corporate leased shopping centers, and two story homes with tiny trees and narrow yards with SUV's and monster trucks in the driveway.

I worked in an office, on the corner described as the center of the big May Day rally at that time, but these were mostly illegal emigrants (aka undocumented), of which there are tens of thousands in the area, and their friends, all wearing white tee shirts, concerned about their (lack of) legal status. There were hundreds or thousands of people at that demonstration, but generally, so-called demonstrations in Modesto are at best three or four people standing in front of the post office with a sign about one of the Gulf Wars. There was a brief period of early environmental activism and recycling in the 1970's and 80's, started by some folks from Berkeley, but that eventually died out or became institutionalized. A large group of people outdoors in Modesto is much more likely to be a free concert at Graceada Park on thursday nights in the early summer, the 4th of July Parade, or church letting out. The local police wear boots and black-uniforms, are unfriendly, and more likely to arrest the innocent than the guilty. IMHO WonderWheeler (talk) 21:44, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I think its a little unfair to put all those unpleasant remarks about Modesto ("Molesto") under the heading "Midwestern Attitudes" (is the Midwest really that bad?), but that does sound an awful lot like the Modesto I remember, and loathed. God, what a Hell hole! More needs to be written in this article, in order to explain why its such an unpleasant place. Naturally, these articles tend to be written by civic boosters and the like, but the Modesto article is in serious need of a critical deconstruction. If you read an article about Modesto, and don't come away thinking "what a horrible place to live!," then that article wasn't NPOV. KevinOKeeffe (talk) 07:19, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Thank you very much for this section of the discussion page. As for the caption, although perhaps unfair to Madison WI and Minneapolis MN, it leaps out of the table of contents and conveys the message in a nutshell.TVC 15 (talk) 07:27, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Worst City

The article says that "Modesto was named the worst city in America in Cities Ranked & Rated, 2nd Edition" This is very misleading. Modesto was actually listed last in the list of the best cities. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Modesto209 (talk • contribs) 03:42, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Modesto Shopping

Please. This whole section, under Entertainment and Culture, really says it all for those who ridicule Modesto, without any snarking vandalism or other editing. There is a huge problem with Modesto's retail businesses, and the openly gladhanding PR by a couple of shopping mall shills is inaccurate, and by my reading, unartful and illiterate. You won't save Modesto by posting on Wikipedia, as there are many here who will riducule you for the effort, as an encyclopedia generally doesn't publish press releases. Try accuracy. Steveozone (talk) 07:08, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

I will probably be editing out nonnotable information from this article shortly. johns incredible pizza is not incredible, and not notable. etc etc. and yes, any city which wants to promote itself would do itself a favor if it wrote a perfectly encyclopedic article on itself, neutral point of view, with references for each fact, and using WMOS. A city doesnt have to be notable to be liveable. Modesto, like so many communities around the world, is a victim of global capitalism, the theft of our commons by corporations, the loss of an internal/spiritual life due to media saturation of cynical, materialistic views, and overdevelopment to benefit real estate interests. not to mention overpopulation, excess freedom of capital/movement resulting in immigration problems, and overreliance on fossil fuels and factory farming. unfortunately, none of this is specific to modesto, and wont get into the WP article on the city. people simply have to read between the lines, and start to rebuild their community as they want it. WP wont create that, but will document it if it happens. any takers? Mercurywoodrose (talk) 06:08, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Nah. Everybody who has any interest is trying to figure out how to improve the article without adding "stores like Macy’s, JC Penny, Sears as well Taxi’s Hamburgers, SweetRiver Grill & Bar or Charley’s Mimmi cafe for dining." I'd never eat at JC Penneys, but that's just me. I suppose I might prefer the "more diverse" McHenry Avenue, a "major thoroughfare" not at all unlike any other... Steveozone (talk) 07:30, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Modesto Wiki Reform -Introduction

A group of interested Modesto citizens are interested in revamping the entry to put it more on par with other comparable cities. We want to start with the introduction, which, regardless of some of the inaccuracies, is simply a poor introduction to the city of Modesto. In our research, we were hard pressed to come across any other city that presented itself with such self-loathing in the introduction as Modesto. So it is our intention, to not sugar coat Modesto in totality, but also, to more fairly reflect the city in our own right, and also as compared to other cities. I am new to the politics of Wikipedia, and certainly do not look to offend anybody, but only to enhance Modesto's profile. I look forward to working with other concerned citizens in this process, and welcome any suggestions as to how to approach this to benefit the city and all who care as a whole.

Sincerely,

Reggie Rucker (talk) 19:57, 30 July 2009 (UTC)Reggie Rucker Republic Marketing

I'm down with that, RR, so long as the results "fairly reflect the city" and do not read as though intended to "enhance Modesto's profile." There have been some recent edits that are, in my opinion anyway, a good start towards making this an acceptable encyclopedia article. I'm not bashing the article, the efforts, or Modesto, but I'll continue in due course to "clean up" here and there to keep the article NPOV, non-promotional, and encyclopedic. In that spirit, my two cents worth is that references are desperately needed, and there will need to be some copyediting to remove "peacock terms" and phrasing that is still more promotional than encyclopedic. Steveozone (talk) 01:42, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Modesto Name

Found a link that afirms the source of the town's name. It is a book available as a pdf free from Modesto Irrigation District. Have not learned how to insert a reference yet. The Greening of Paradise Valley, The First 100 Years of the Modesto Irrigation District By Dwight H. Barnes Commissioned by the Modesto Irrigation District In recognition of its centennial year Copyright 1987 by the Modesto Irrigation District. Library of Congress Catalog Number:87-60117 See p.16, chapter 2: http://www.mid.org/about/100-years/chpt_02.htm full pdf file: http://www.mid.org/about/100-years/grnng_of_pvy.pdf WonderWheeler (talk) 06:42, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Popular Culture

I know "popular culture" entries can be controversial and are often just trivia lists, but it was these mentions that brought me to this article, so I thought them worth inclusion. Why would Modesto get mentioned in movies and games? Are they tributes to George Lucas, or are they influenced by people involved in production who come from Modesto? Pelagic (talk) 06:13, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

AMERICAN GRAFFITI's Relationship to the Fifties Revival of the 1970s

The article claims that AMERICAN GRAFFITI spawned the Fifties revival of the 1970s. In fact, it came in the midst of that revival. The musical GREASE premiered two years earlier (in 1971). And in 1972, before AMERICAN GRAFFITI premiered, both NEWSWEEK and LIFE magazines ran stories on the Fifties revival.BenA (talk) 20:08, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

RFC regarding lead photo

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

There is consensus against replacing the photo with the aerial one in question. AlbinoFerret 02:08, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

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Current Lead: Modesto Arch

proposed skyline photo of the entire city of Modesto, California

overview of Simi Valley, for comparison

La Jolla, for comparison a city not a entire valley of a number of cities.

I obtained a new aerial photo of the entire city of Modesto and had replaced the photo of a city arch that was placed in the Image Skyline section of the city template. The edit was reverted User_talk:Stepheng3#lead_photo_of_the_city_of_Modesto here using a photo of a sign. @Stepheng3: claim is that "Modesto looks much like every other major city in the Central Valley.", yet this IS Modesto, you can see the airport and its location to other landmarks in the city, as anyone with access to google maps can see, and it is a far better representation of a skyline then the arches that User:Stepheng3 has reverted to. talk→ WPPilot  18:07, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Correction: what I wrote was, "From the air, Modesto looks much like every other major city in the Central Valley." At ground level, of course, is a different matter. This is especially true in a 250-pixel wide image, which is what the infobox has room for. In my opinion, the purpose of the lead image is to provide a distinctive and memorable visual "hook" for the article. The majority of Wikipedia users probably would not consider the airport a distinctive feature of Modesto. The arch is visually striking, and they do the job better than WPPilot's photo. There are other photos at commons which might also serve. Perhaps the shot of the Gallo Center? I welcome comments from other points of view.—Stepheng3 (talk) 18:29, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

And, as a California pilot with hundreds of hours, I would have to dis agree that "From the air, Modesto looks much like every other major city in the Central Valley." You could not be more incorrect and, using Google maps anyone can see that it does not look anything like Bakersfield, Shafter, Wasco Taft, Fresno, Coalinga, or any other city in the valley, but it looks a lot like the city of Modesto, as it is. A sign with two tree's whos tops are cut off does not look like a city, the Modesto sign has its own Wikipedia page and does not belong as the lead photo on a page about a city itself. Airports are considered one of if not the most valuable resource in any city in the US, populations are normally built around the airport, as you can see in the aerial photo. talk→ WPPilot  19:49, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

WPPilot, I'll grant that, to an experienced pilot, cities look quite distinctive from the air, but that's not how most people typically view them. At 250px, I can't see the airport, and it's not an aspect of the city I'm very interested in. The material question is: What should be the lead image for this article? It doesn't need to show every building in the city. It should be something distinctive and reasonably attractive.—Stepheng3 (talk) 21:09, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

It is interesting as well to note that the photo you show, of the Simi Valley was taken with a phone, on what was more then likely a commercial aircraft, (that is the ONLY aerial photo from that user) not a professional photographer that specializes in Aerial photography from a private prop jet, like the nice ones I contribute using my Leica Camera...... talk→ WPPilot  23:43, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

@Stepheng3: IMHO people, can gain invaluable knowledge from a aerial photo. A old sign with a slogan that welcomes you to the city is a far less "overall perspective" that would be better suited in a image skyline area of a template on a city. Should we use a dot in place of a photo of the Space Station as that is how (as a dot in the sky) people will really see it excepting astronauts? I think you well know the answer to that. Here is my perspective on Skyline Images and I will reach out to a few other editors to chime in here as well. Most people for the most part know what there city looks like, and a city is a diverse collections of spaces that have been organized and developed into what it has become today. If a article is about a city, as a whole one would want a lead picture of that city to be the whole city, if it was available. Now with regard to your concerns, perhaps we could cop a close or enlarge the thumbnail to better feature the photo, perhaps use 325px to illustrate the city, but to have a actual photo of the city itself and use a photo of the sign that welcomes you is not I am sure in the best interests of any city in the image skyline section of the template. talk→ WPPilot  21:34, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

@CorinneSD: would you mind commenting on this please. talk→ WPPilot  23:45, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

This is a tough one. First, I'll say that that WPPilot's aerial photo of Modesto is a much better photo than the Simi Valley photo, and, when enlarged by clicking on it, it shows impressive detail. That aside, I generally think an aerial photo is not the best type of photo for the lede in a city article. I think it would work better later in the article. I have to agree with Stepheng3 that the image should be "something distinctive and reasonably attractive". So, for now, I would leave the photo of the arch. However, I really think that there must be other distinctive views of Modesto (closer to the ground than an aerial photo) that would be more attractive than the arch photo. I looked through the articles on several California cities. The larger cities such as Sacramento, San Jose, California, and Anaheim have montages of several photos. In the others I looked at, there is quite a variety for the lede image, including one or two that are aerial images. I like the mid-range views of Fresno, Bakersfield, and Riverside, California. Right now, there are only four images in the Modesto article. I think it could stand one or two more images, including perhaps both WPPilot's aerial photo and, if a replacement is found, the arch photo. WPPIlot, besides your preference for the aerial image, is there any other reason for your wanting that image to be in the lede? CorinneSD (talk) 00:37, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

No notother then I felt it represents the whole city better then a older photo of a arch. talk→ WPPilot  00:50, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

It does show the whole city, from the air. I just think the lede photo should be something that the average person would be intrigued by, or can relate to, almost as if he or she could see themselves there, in that place. But I'm not adamantly opposed to the aerial image. It's a possibility. There are other city articles with an aerial photo in the lede. CorinneSD (talk) 01:01, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

WP:IMAGE RELEVANCE & WP:IMAGE LEAD are the relevant MOSs that we should consider in this question. While the La Jolla, San Diego image due to the coast line does a good job of representing the city, I feel that the aerial photo is not very relevant to many of us who do not see the city from the air often. Not that it shouldn't be in the article, just that it might not be the best image for the lead (in the infobox).--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 03:16, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

With all due respect to the aerial photo and its promoter, I think that to the average reader, the sign is going to be far more relevant. The aerial photo is good and should be in the article, but a good ground-level picture like the prior lead picture is best to go first. Red Slash 00:12, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

I second this position. As someone not from Modesto or the Simi Valley the sign is much more helpful and useful than the suggested photo from the air. Even the town I live in or cities to which I often fly are hardly identifiable from the air from dozen's of other cities. I would also agree that the aerial photos is great and should be included in the body of the article. Pistongrinder (talk) 20:40, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Merger discussion

Hi I'd like to propose that the article List of historic places in Modesto, California be merged into the Modesto, California#Tourism section of this article. The list is not extensive and overlaps the Tourism section to some degree. This amount of information would be more useful to readers if integrated into the main article I think. What do others think? Mccapra (talk) 08:31, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

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