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Talk:Madonna/Archive 14

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Latest comment: 11 years ago by Chrishonduras in topic Queen of Pop... Again
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Infobox picture

Latest comment: 11 years ago7 comments5 people in discussion

hey how about we use this one it's high quality and you can clearly see her eyes/face and it's more recent--LuxiromChick (talk) 18:06, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Although the five-year-old photo by David Shankbone is still the best shot, I personally do not object this picture. It's the best so far among all recent pictures from MDNA Tour. Let's wait opinion from the other editors. Bluesatellite (talk) 08:27, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
That photo is totally blown out and at a bad angle. I suggest we keep the current one. Kaldari (talk) 06:25, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
I think it's nice, it's high quality, recent you can see her eyes/face though i think it might need a little touching on the coloring.--189.191.243.50 (talk) 19:55, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
"Blown out" means the bright areas are too bright, lacking detail, clipped, washed out. They are all that, so I don't think the Madonna_MDNA_Vancouver.jpg image is suitable. Binksternet (talk) 21:16, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
Yes but keep in mind that the current one is almost 5 years old. The MDNA Vancouver one while it doesn't have the best coloring is the best (IMO) out of all the MDNA Tour pictures.--189.191.243.50 (talk) 22:50, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
A photograph five years old is not a problem for me, if the photo has a timeless quality to it, which the Shankbone image does. Binksternet (talk) 05:05, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 16 November 2012

Latest comment: 11 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

I'm requesting an update to Madonna's discography. There are no compilation albums or sound tracks of hers listed. I'd also like to see the album "I'm Breathless" included as a studio album (1990). It was a full studio album in which the songs were from and inspired by the film Dick Tracy. I think its a very important album to list as it scored her one of the most successful songs of her career with Vogue.

68.166.75.34 (talk) 00:23, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

  Not done: The list in this article is not intended to be complete. See Madonna albums discography for the full discography, including compilations and I'm Breathless. RudolfRed (talk) 02:47, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Criticism/controversy

Latest comment: 11 years ago13 comments5 people in discussion

I am surprised that this article has no "Criticism/controversy" section. Googling "Madonna criticism", shows there are 8,400,000 results. "Madonna controversy" has 7,620,000 results. Is this article saying she is above being criticised? I'm sure if there were a "Criticism/controversy" section, it could also contain answers/defence from the lady herself. Balance is needed in all aspects of this article.--andreasegde (talk) 18:28, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

I agree. There should be something, based on quality reliable sources of course. Martin Hogbin (talk) 23:01, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
I have started a section. We need to ensure that this contains criticism from quality secondary sources that is significant to her career as a whole. It must not become a 'Anything bad we can find about Madonna' section. Martin Hogbin (talk) 23:12, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
An entire section devoted exclusively to criticism isn't needed. When this article went through FAC, editors who worked on the article (myself included) agreed criticisms should be reflected where ever they are relevant: ex, criticism of her music/voice/songwriting should be withing the artistry section, criticism on her music videos (on production, content, etc) should be included there, and so forth. Overall criticism of her public person should be within the Legacy section. Specific criticisms of specific events should be stated within the relevant timeline in the body of the article. Regulating every criticism ever thrown in her direction in one section isn't exactly encyclopedic. (It should also be noted that the reason the article was demoted was not for prose or the structure/balance/neutrality of the article but for falsified sources from one editor). The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 23:20, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
Yes, you are quite right, I was being a bit too bold. I have looked at a random selection of other entertainers and none has a section on criticism. Feel free to remove the section and put any criticism in it in the relevant section. Martin Hogbin (talk) 23:56, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

"Regulating every criticism ever thrown in her direction in one section isn't exactly encyclopedic". I agree, but "every criticism" is not what is being proposed here.--andreasegde (talk) 04:51, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Which is why criticisms should be presented in sections where they are most relevant, not grouped together. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 06:20, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
Andreasegde, I had a quick look at Elvis Presley, John Lennon, Elton John, and Michael Jackson, not exactly an uncontroversial bunch, and none has a 'Criticism/controversy' section. I think we should follow suit here. Martin Hogbin (talk) 09:44, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
I give you the Heather Mills article - certainly not an uncontroversial character. There is an excellent section on "Media Image & Criticism", which is then followed by a rebuttal of the criticisms from expert sources. I would suggest that this should be a template to follow for this article. Just because such a section does not appear in certain other articles should not preclude this article from being improved and moved away from endless eulogy. As further examples of appropriate sections, please see Piers Morgan, Max Mosley, Jeremy Clarkson, Donald Trump and the excellently re-written Jimmy Savile article, which gives a neutral tone while laying out sourced, uncomfortable, facts. I agree with andreasegde. No one is suggesting a hatchet job, just an acceptance of the existence of opposing views from professional contemporaries, which is part of the job of an encyclopaedia. Manxwoman (talk) 12:34, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
By the same token, just because such a section does appear in other article does not by any means automatically make it appropriate here. Moving the article away from "endless eulogy" can be easily done by trimming text, which you have already begun to do. As I said before, criticisms should be placed where they have the most relevance. That is my take on any BLP and always has been. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 15:09, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
I agree that the optimum treatment of controversy is the placing of those bits throughout the article in paragraphs or sections where mentioning them is most relevant. Binksternet (talk) 17:02, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
  • If anyone cares to look, I often use google books to find sources rather than web-only searches. A simple search like madonna sex controversy, madonna catholic controversy, madonna negative image, etc) gives a heap of hits that can be used if anyone wants to go through it (I myself added the statements from Robert M. Grant (Contemporary Strategy Analysis) on her success being attributed to her relationship rather than talent in the Artistry section and Shmuel Boteach's (Hating Women) POV that she is the pop equivalent of a pornographer in Legacy. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 22:48, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
I agree that we should not look through the internet and add anything negative about Madonna that we can find. We should only add significant and substantial criticism from quality sources in an encyclopedic style. Martin Hogbin (talk) 09:22, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Edit Warring

Latest comment: 11 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Manxwoman, did you mean to revert to the version that you did? You wiped out my edits as well. Martin Hogbin (talk) 17:31, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

I do sincerely apologise. Entirely my fault. I did not mean to delete your edits at all. I pressed "Restore this version" not thinking that it would effect all edits afterwards. Stupid of me. I have (attempted) to restore your three edits and I would be grateful if you would just double-check them. I really am sorry. I was just removing an un-encyclodedic statement insinuating that this singer had somehow single-handedly influenced the clothes choice of every impressionable female on the planet! Keep up the excellent work. Manxwoman (talk) 18:06, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Is there a consensus to tone down the article?

Latest comment: 11 years ago19 comments8 people in discussion

I and others have made some changes to tone down the promotional gloss and there do no seem to have been too many complaints. So far I have only looked at a small part of the article. Is there a consensus to carry on this process? Martin Hogbin (talk) 14:27, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Binksternet (talk) 21:16, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

I will try to remember, but should that not be 'zee'. Martin Hogbin (talk) 21:40, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
Oh dear, do we have to lower ourselves to bad (sorry American) English? Lets TRY and educate the Colonials a little bit. If Wiki has to go the way of bizarre spelling and grammar, it will be the end of civilisation as we know it...! Manxwoman (talk) 21:50, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
Heh heh... I like how the last three letters of "criticized" is the same as the way the letter zee is used in Canada. I just couldn't resist the impulse. Binksternet (talk) 21:52, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
I really must pick you up on your use of "Heh Heh". It should be "Jolly good show, old chap". PLEASE try & get it right! Manxwoman (talk) 21:55, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
  • Keep up the work: the article needs a bit of a clean-up, and your edits seem to be fine. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 21:34, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
  • I suppose I should chip in with my opinion, as the one who GA reviewed this .... one of the problems I had is that some of the negative opinions weren't supported by reliable sources, and per WP:BLP, they had to go. The positive stuff, which was substantiated through several retrospectives in major media outlets, was less problematic, though even then I suggested there was a quite a bit of WP:PUFFERY that could be got rid of. I asked the person who submitted the article for GA to review to get rid of the bit about her mom's mouth being sewn up, being unnecessary detail, and I obviously missed that this hadn't been done. I don't know who removed the thing about the nude photos, but that was sourced, and was there when I reviewed it, so well done for putting that back in. I also notice Michael William's reference that explains why people don't like Madonna has been removed, which is a shame, as that is one thing that is (imho) reliably sourced and contributes towards the negative opinions. Anyway, if you can improve the article, carry on. --Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 13:17, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
  • Comment No complaints from me. My attitude, above and beyond the general practices of WP, for an article about a celebrity like Madonna are that it NOT read like something out of a gossip tabloid. I think the tone, style, and information provided gives a good impression of the subject matter. My 2 cents... --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 00:23, 8 December 2012 (UTC) p.s. Hola Bink!

I have done a bit more, trying only to remove or tone down gratuitous promotional wording. Let me know if you think I am going too far. Martin Hogbin (talk) 18:06, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Is it OK now?

I have now been through most of the article removing promotional gloss and excessive quotations. What is the general feeling now? Martin Hogbin (talk) 09:30, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Here's the difference showing five weeks of work on the article. The diff highlights what was removed but it does not indicate if any problems still remain. Certainly a lot of fluff was removed! The article is in much better condition.
Perhaps the following quote can be trimmed to just the first sentence: "I may be dressing the typical bimbo, whatever, but I'm in charge. You know. I'm in charge of my fantasies. I put myself in these situations with men, you know, and people don't think of me as a person who's not in charge of my career or my life, okay. And isn't that what feminism is all about, you know, equality for men and women? And aren't I in charge of my life, doing the things I want to do? Making my own decisions?"
I removed a botched quote obviously taken in part from the Truth or Dare video. The quote was absent from page 140 of the book which was cited. A more accurate quote is present on page 140 of the Metz book, but I don't think we need it: she said was interested in pushing people's buttons, being provocative and political. I think the reader comprehends this fact without the quote. Binksternet (talk) 16:12, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
I agree that the whole quote should go. The point is already made in the previous sentence. Martin Hogbin (talk) 18:36, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
This already seems like a FA quality article. Martin, why don't you give it a shot at the project? —Indian:BIO · [ ChitChat ] 14:55, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
I would not go so far as to say it was ready for FA. The writing is clunky in places. Some paragraphs have no apparent unity of thought—they are just agglomerations of sentences. The word "stated" is over-used. It would be great to have one expert writer take the article apart and put it back together such that it speaks with one voice. Binksternet (talk) 15:56, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
Hmm do you have the GOCE in mind? Or someone you recommend? —Indian:BIO · [ ChitChat ] 07:01, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
Binksternet, your comments seem a bit harsh to me. As I understand it, this article has already been an FA, with much of the current text in it.
Anyway, my question was aimed at those who have been criticising the article for being too promotional. I can claim no credit for what is in the article, only for gently toning it down a bit, in response to the RfC. Martin Hogbin (talk) 10:35, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 17 January 2013

Latest comment: 11 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Please change the main picture of Madonna (Madonna by David Shankbone.jpg) to a more recent picture (2012 at least) because the current image is from 2008 (the pisture is too old). Thanks.

Agus1991 (talk) 02:50, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

First of all, don't post twice. Secondly, no. It doesn't matter when the picture was taken. Suggest a picture, and gain consensus.  — Statυs (talk, contribs) 02:53, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Lack of neutrality in this article

Latest comment: 11 years ago15 comments12 people in discussion
Consensus is that the article is not as neutral as it should be. I invite the editors to fix it. Drmies (talk) 20:06, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I am very concerned at the lack of neutrality in the main article. It would appear that certain editors are making sure that only complimentary comments are included about the subject and are creating a "generally positive image" only (as stated below) and excising anything that does not fit the intended eulogistic tone of the article. Personal thoughts of the subject matter aside, this is unbecoming to a serious encyclopaedia such as Wikipedia and does not give a fair and balanced account of the subject. It may also be a potential breech of a fundamental and non-negotiable Wiki policy Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. May we have other unbiased editors comments on this please? Manxwoman (talk) 20:46, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

  • Comment. I agree with the statement in the section below this one - if negative aspects are to be incorporated, they should be high quality observers such as scholars analyzing pop music, or pop attitudes toward religion, or pop fashion. To be included criticism need to notable and certainly not gossipy. The lead itself includes several comments that she has been criticized so I don't see the whitewashing at all. Insomesia (talk) 18:35, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
    • Comment about the comment. The principle of parity of sources applies. It is inconsistent to demand better sources for criticisms than is used in the rest of the article. If the article uses newspaper and magazine articles as sources, then criticisms that appear in similar newspapers and magazines are OK to use. FurrySings (talk) 05:03, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
      • The parity guidelines refer to sources about fringe theories. Much more relevant in this case is the WP:BLP policy, which tends to agree with Insomnia's and Binksternet's comments. Specifically, contentious material about a living person must be well-sourced. That said, we should not be sourcing positive comments about Madonna to tabloid newspapers either. Kaldari (talk) 06:19, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
  • Comment. I agree that the article does have an overly eulogistic tone, with too much personal detail and too many personal quotations. That fact that these may all be well sourced does not mean that they should be in an encyclopedia article. Martin Hogbin (talk) 13:22, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
  • I'm perfectly fine with someone going through the text and sources to reduce laudatory fluff from puff pieces. I'm also fine with someone adding well-sourced and neutrally worded criticism. Neither of these processes needs to have consensus from a talk page thread to establish whether they can be performed or not. Go with WP:BRD. Anyway, I don't think the article is all that far from neutral, that there is a giant problem. Binksternet (talk) 13:45, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
I have reduced the quotations a bit in the '1958–81: Early life and career beginnings'. I hope you do not find this excessive. Martin Hogbin (talk) 23:48, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
The problem seems to me to be with the tone of the article. It contains many quotations which give the article an unencyclopedic, too promotional, and too personal tone. I will try to replace some of the quotations with third person commentary to see how it looks. Martin Hogbin (talk)
Do you really think so? But why none of editors concerned about that "personal tone" in the previous FAC discussion. If the article was really that "unencyclopedic", then it would not promoted to FA. Not to mention that the article has gone through a lot of peer reviews and good article nominee/reassessments (see on the article milestones). Bluesatellite (talk) 06:51, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
Yes I do really think so, see the comment below. The FA reviewers clearly missed something. Martin Hogbin (talk) 09:08, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
  • Comment This article reads as if written by her fanbase or her agent. There are sections about her "artistry", her "influence" and her "legacy", and not a single one about "critisicms", "scandals", or "controversy". This is one of the most unbalanced articles on Wikipedia. Madonna is a very controversial figure and the article should reflect that. It doesn't. --Sue Rangell ✍ ✉ 00:20, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
I agree. On the other hand the article is well sourced and well written, in fact very skilfully written to minimise the impact of criticism that is actually mentioned in the article if you look. I suspect that this comes from the wording of many of the sources, which seem to be fan-based.
I do not think any heavy handed editing is warranted but a light touch is needed to remove some of the gloss and to balance the lavish praise present throughout the article. Any important missing criticisms, controversies, or scandals should, of course, be added.
I have started trying edit the article to achieve the above aims. Please have a look at my edits and let me know if you think I am doing the right thing. Martin Hogbin (talk) 09:08, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
  • Comment The article does seem to have an eulogistic tone. However WP policies discourage sections focusing on "critisicms", "scandals", or "controversies", see WP:CRITS. If there are any missing criticisms and such, these should be simply added to the relevant sections in the article, not under a section of their own. Ajaxfiore (talk) 00:51, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
  • Comment The amount of negative/postive ratio should be close to what it is in the reliable refs. Madonna should have good refs available for both postive/negative. Change the iffy refs for good ones and use the ratio of postive/negative as base for the ratio in this article. SD (talk contribs) 00:35, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
  • Comment I agree that the page is not neutral and has a promotional tone. The policy regarding no criticism or controversy sections is a suggestion and should be more focused on cases of pushing a personal agenda. Hasn't some of Madonna's appeal throughout her career been tied to how controversial she is at times? A section focused on this would be comparable to her Legacy section as it currently is. I wouldn't have a problem including in the article as is for more specific instances either, but at least some progress should me made towards making this more neutral. Dreambeaver(talk) 19:40, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

consensus regarding infobox picture

Latest comment: 11 years ago13 comments6 people in discussion

I think we should make a consensus regarding which picture to use on the article's infobox, should we keep using the shankbone one, or the more recent MDNA one??? --LuxiromChick (talk) 05:37, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

We already have recent consensus to prefer the shankbone image. See archive 13 above for details of the discussion. 21st CENTURY GREENSTUFF 11:20, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
These two photos have been uploaded recently, they were taken in April at her Truth or Dare press conference. Does anyone think that they would fit? Amzer (talk) 17:31, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
The first one is pretty high in resolution and works fine as infobox picture. I would concensise for that one. —Indian:BIO · [ ChitChat ] 17:37, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
Is there such a word as 'concensise' or 'consensise' even? Martin Hogbin (talk) 18:09, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
There is no way to confirm those pictures are indeed property of the uploader, i seem to remember than a while ago a similar picture, from the same event was uploaded and subsequently deleted due to copyright issues. --LuxiromChick (talk) 23:10, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
File:Madonna MDNA Vancouver.jpg cannot be used either. It may be of large size but definitely not of high-resolution at all. —Indian:BIO · [ ChitChat ] 06:36, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

I find it highly suspicious that these images have already appeared on other websites. It is not likely they have no copyrights attached - see http://blameitonmadonna.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/truth-or-dare-by-madonna-launch-at.html 21st CENTURY GREENSTUFF 20:15, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Also, if it was the uploader's genuine own work as claimed, they would have the camera's metadata attached. In both cases the metadata indicates they were downloaded from elsewhere as jpeg files which makes their availability for use in this article most unlikely. It is more likely these images will be deleted on copyright grounds. 21st CENTURY GREENSTUFF 11:17, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
So its back to the old Shankbone image as I can see. I did a personal search on Flickr, none of the images are at all suitable. —Indian:BIO · [ ChitChat ] 18:46, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
The Truth or Dare photos are actually copyright violations, I just found them on Getty. I reported them to Commons for a speedy deletion. Amzer (talk) 01:32, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

I have a personal photo of Madonna that I took during the MDNA tour, as it is mine would putting it up here be a violation of any wiki terms? The "current" infobox photo of her is five years out of date (she doesn't even look like that anymore!) and considering the level of importance of this music article I think it reflects badly on wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.234.252.66 (talk) 20:51, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

No it wouldn't be a copyright violation because since you're the one who took the picture, you legally own it. So feel free to upload it on Commons here : Commons:Upload. Amzer (talk) 15:50, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Move proposal for Madonna (art)

Latest comment: 11 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Madonna (art)#Requested Move: → Madonna which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. --Trystan (talk) 15:20, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 2 February 2013

Latest comment: 11 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

In the Madonna article it was stated that her half time show at the super bowl in 2012 was the highest watched ever with 114 million viewers-well, in 1993 Michael Jackson performed the super bowl half time show and he had 135 million viewers (according to WIKIPEDIA) so how can Madonna's half time show be the highest watched? Please research and make necessary corrections. Thank you. Mj4everliveson (talk) 19:11, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Not proceed:

Edit request on 11 February 2013

Latest comment: 11 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Madonna has won 11 Grammies.

122.176.194.220 (talk) 16:04, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

  Not done: All her awards are listed in a different article, which is linked from this one: List_of_awards_and_nominations_received_by_Madonna. That article only shows she has won seven times. If you have a reliable source that says she's won more, please add it to that article, or raise the issue on the talk page there. RudolfRed (talk) 04:41, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Queen of Pop

Latest comment: 11 years ago11 comments8 people in discussion

Once again, we need to ask that the Wiki staff look beyond their personal dislike of Madonna and ad what is her official title in the music industry as stated by critics, fellow artists, and public polls. Just like Michael Jackson's page list him as King of Pop, this one needs to name Madonna as Queen of Pop. Please stop arguing the fans on this. Please! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.189.7.60 (talk) 02:05, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Many artists has been called "Queen of pop", so true, but not as widely as Madonna (And this does not only include the United States, is worldwide). Anyway, many journalists and music critics and sociocultural call Madonna as "the eternal queen of pop" (Including references as of 2009... 2012 or even 2013) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.56.253.139 (talk) 03:20, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Queen of Pop is used so lightly for some reason, and I have no idea what it is. Madonna was the first to be cited as the Queen of Pop (to my knowledge) and she has been reported as so for many years, so I don't see a problem with including it. I'm just noting that the media seems to call anybody the Queen of Pop now-a-days. Nobody calls anybody the King of Pop unless they mean Micheal. It's weird. Probably a gender thing. But yes, Madonna is well-known as the Queen of Pop for decades. Status 03:26, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

There are passive mentions of her title throughout the article, and it seems to be what she's notorious for. Include it somewhere in the lead. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 03:44, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
Have struck my comment per below. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 02:23, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose. In response to the assertion by Status that Madonna was the first to be called Queen of Pop, I present the following sources:
    • 1965: Cue, "The enigmatic Marisol, the artist who might be called the Queen of Pop..." [1]
    • 1970: Goa Today, (Regarding Usha Uthup) "The programme opened amid wild cheers from the audience as the Queen of Pop music stepped on to the centre of the stage." [2]
    • 1973: Ebony, "...Diana Ross, a reigning queen of pop culture." [3]
    • 1974: Phonograph Record, "Suzi Quatro, Queen of Pop" [4]
    • 1975: Billboard, "Debby Byrne: Currently Australia's 'Queen of Pop'..." [5]
    • 1976: Looking good: the liberation of fashion. "If Ethel Scull inherited Baby Jane Holzer's title as queen of pop people back in the late sixties..." [6]
    • 1977: Congressional oversight hearings, "And in the area of topical live entertainment, pay cable has featured Bette Midler, the reigning queen of pop-rock..." [7]
    • 1978: Punch, "Nina Miskow, The Sun's new Queen of Pop..." [8]
    • 1978: Lewiston Evening Journal, "'Queen of Pop' high school dropout" (regarding Marcia Hines. [9]
    • 1978: Gadsden Time, "Australia's 'Queen of Pop' is an American Woman" (regarding Marcia Hines. [10]
    • 1979: Billboard, "The company's viability for the past three years has been based upon the multi-platinum sales of 'Queen of Pop' Marcia Hines..." [11]
    • 1985: TV Guide, "Tina Turner: Her comeback is the ultimate example of the battered divorcee returning... Read about the queen of pop & rock and her HBO concert." [12]
      • I think the phrase "Queen of Pop" has been used too many times in too many situations for Madonna to own it alone. We should never say in Wikipedia's voice that Madonna is the Queen of Pop. We can say that this person or that publication honored her with the term. Binksternet (talk) 05:33, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
      • Interesting, I will give my opinion when I have time, in any case, if this discussion has already been shut down, I will be opening a new. Best regards, Chrishonduras (talk) 13:39, 14 February 2013 (UTC)


In response to the list of arguments opposing it. Those are incredibly weak. While it's true anyone can write anything, none of those artist have accomplished what she has, and most of them I've never heard of. Diana Ross doesn't even do pop music, she does R & B, and that article said "Queen of Pop Culture" which is different than Pop music. Also, the title is not as thrown around as you say. Madonna is in the clear world wide majority when it comes to holding this title. Also, there are people who have named others as the King. Some people have said Usher, Kanye West and even Justin Beiber are the King now. Obviously, that's ridiculous. So is anyone but Madonna being given this title. It's time for Wikipedia to finally recognize this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Djackson84 (talk • contribs) 23:23, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Strongly oppose (I agree with a mention in the article, perhaps in legacy, but definitely not in the lead - an other editor said that were "passive" mentions, and I'll have to check, but this may already be - in my opinion - satisfactory). The Michael Jackson page perhaps has a rationale for the term, it being that he monopolized the term "King of Pop"; other artists have been referred to similar titles but not to the extent he has. Yes, Madonna has been given this title (and lots of other honorific titles) by the media, but the "title" has not really stuck with her as something singularly significant (see the List of honorific titles in popular music#M). By extension, we would have to include the British media nickname of "Madge" in the lead, purely because a group of journalists have referred to her as this. Looking through the list, other artists such as Mariah Carey, Whitney Houston and Celine Dion have received the title, perhaps even to the extent Madonna has. Furthermore, claims that Madonna is the "most superior" or "most well known" or even the "Queen of Pop" are point-of-view pushing, cannot be verified and would damage the neutrality of the article. —Jennie | ☎ 00:00, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
I agree with the opposes and have withdrawn my support. A mention in the lead is probably POV-pushing. I think I meant to write "passing", but that wouldn't even be the right word. Perhaps, "brief". But maybe that's all that's needed. Any more and we have puffery. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 02:23, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Once again, Wiki's personal feelings against her come into play. That's what breaking the neutrality of your page. Whitney and Mariah's latest work wasn't even pop, it was R&B, and Celine's career is no one near Madonna's. None of them have reached the level she is on. That's not opinion or point of view. And to say the title hasn't stuck with her, is simply incorrect as none of them have been referred to as this by even a quarter of the times Madonna has. It's unimaginable that Wikipedia still works this way. Shameful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Djackson84 (talk • contribs) 02:03, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Madonna earned the most

Latest comment: 11 years ago4 comments3 people in discussion

Croatian writer Giancarlo Kravar: American pop star Madonna is the highest earning in the music industry last year, and it helped her highest world tour MDNA, Billboard magazine has published on its website. Madonna (54) was at the top of Billboard's charts for annual earnings for the second time in five years. The list is compiled by earnings from the tour, album and other projects of the artist. Billboard states that only Madonna on tour earned around $ 32 million, which makes up more than 90 percent of its total revenue last year of $ 34.6 million.93.137.34.254 (talk) 18:02, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Please provide a reference. Thanks. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 20:05, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
Billboard.com  — Statυs (talk, contribs) 20:09, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
Cool, you can add that in; interesting stuff. I never thought the MDNA Tour would be such a success. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 20:12, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Length of subheads

Latest comment: 11 years ago6 comments3 people in discussion

I've noticed that several of the headings in the life and career section are quite lengthy. Might it make sense to eliminate the album's tours in the headings? At most, they only have a couple sentences in each section, and appear to be less notable than the album itself. Since this is a good article, I figured it would be best to propose it before taking on something potentially controversial myself. WikiRedactor (talk) 17:05, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

  • I think the headings are fine as they are, the tours mentioned are prominent tours and I also don't see a problem leaving it as it is. I also think the current introduction to the article mentions too many things about her albums/singles. I thought the edit before was clear, concise and to the point. This new intro seems to be just mentioning albums and singles for the sake of it. I propose we go back to the last version of the introduction jwad.... blah | blah | blah 18:05, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
    • I reverted back to the original introduction, and included some additional changes while still following its base format. Does it look alright to you? WikiRedactor (talk) 18:23, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
      • Looks great thanks for reverting! This intro gets straight to the point and covers her whole career. Cheers! jwad.... blah | blah | blah 19:01, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
I'd support the removal of tours in the subheadings; tours usually relate to the album anyway and distinguishing what makes a tour notable or not notable for a subheading is subjective. The subheading should contain the most prominent project/event during life or career in the respective time span. —Jennie | ☎ 22:30, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
I changed it to see if it tidies things up a bit; I think it has! If there isn't a consensus to change, then you can revert it. —Jennie | ☎ 22:46, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Requested move

Latest comment: 11 years ago46 comments27 people in discussion
The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved: there is insufficient support for the move and reasoned opposition against it. DrKiernan (talk) 08:25, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

– I understand that this issue has been discussed multiple times in the past, but I still feel that this is a case of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. The only article on the disambiguation that could compete with Madonna the singer for primary topic would be Mary, and even so the term "Madonna" is only used thirteen times in the article, not one of which is a notable term presented in the introduction. Of thw two, the singer is much more notable in this naming, and deserves the primary naming. This would require moving the disambiguation to Madonna (disambiguation) but I couldn't get the multimove template working. WikiRedactor (talk) 04:19, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

I repaired the multimove template for you. Zzyzx11 (talk) 05:14, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Support. She's clearly the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC of this name. Status 04:29, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
    Not according to the several previous move discussions, nor to those who participated in this discussion earlier this year that proposed to make Madonna (art) the primary topic instead. You may want to be more specific in your comment. Zzyzx11 (talk) 05:07, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose. There is about a three to one ratio of page views in favor of Madonna only looking at the first three pages on the dis page, but that really is not enough to change the status quo (I tend to favor at least 4:1, and preferably 5:1 over the next most viewed, though this is not listed as a criteria in the guidelines, which says more than all others, a criteria that has always been met). Never mind that Madonna has sold more records than any other (female) performer. Unfortunately there is something else that is very well known that Madonna was named after. Apteva (talk) 05:46, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Support. If you google Madonna -wikipedia, 29 of the top 30 results refer to the singer. The other one refers to Madonna University in Michigan. A topic is primary, "if it is highly likely—much more likely than any other topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term," per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Kauffner (talk) 09:10, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose the status quo was just confirmed in a well-attended discussion at the art page - Zzyzx11 gives the link above. Nobody denies Mad gets far more hits, but that is actually not the only factor in considering "primary topic". The nominator and supporters should read the guidelines again. There is an element of forum-shopping here, as the first debate only closed 2 weeks ago. Johnbod (talk) 11:44, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Nothing has changed since the last four requested moves, which all ended in no move: January 2007, April 2008, June 2010 and August 2012. The arguments are the same this time 'round; the result should be the same. Binksternet (talk) 12:21, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose as before. Doesn't need yet another discussion. Just because Madonna fans think she's the primary topic and they and the media write a lot about her on the internet does not wipe out centuries of common primary usage as an artistic depiction of the Virgin Mary. And to stop the inevitable comments (as before) that this discussion is being hijacked by Christians, I'd just like to say that I'm not in the slightest bit religious. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:44, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment & Suggestion: I did, in fact, review the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC guidelines, and saw the following:
    A topic is primary for a term, with respect to usage, if it is highly likely—much more likely than any other topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term.
    Wikipedia's traffic statistics says the art form had 11,035 view this month; the singer had 266,178 hits and is the 468th most visited article in February. So it certainly looks like the singer is the more popular and searched of the two.
    A topic is primary for a term, with respect to long-term significance, if it has substantially greater enduring notability and educational value than any other topic associated with that term.
    The height of Madonna's career was nearly 30 years ago, yet she still pulls through among the most viewed articles in the English Wikipedia. Yes, Madonna the painting has been around significantly longer, but its page doesn't even get a fraction of the views that Madge does.
    If the page is moved, what would be wrong with adding this at the top of the article: "This article is about the entertainer. For the pictorial or sculptured representations of Mary, Mother of Jesus, see Madonna (art). For other uses, see Madonna (disambiguation)." I would think this satisfies all, as it would direct those who perhaps think of the art as the primary topic to the article they are looking for. WikiRedactor (talk) 20:52, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
But you missed " In a few cases, there is some conflict between a topic of primary usage and one of primary long-term significance. In such a case, consensus determines which article, if either, is the primary topic." That is the case here. Yes, if it was moved, such a hatnote would of course be needed. But it won't be moved. Johnbod (talk) 21:35, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Support: Per WikiRedactor and their recommended solution. Insomesia (talk) 21:19, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Support : I completely support WikiRedactor. Its logical and she is the primary topic. jwad.... blah | blah | blah 23:01, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
Is that you impression, or have you, somehow, worked it out. Ceoil (talk) 05:04, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose. WP:PRIMARYTOPIC has a two-pronged test: usage and long-term significance. Where these criteria lead to significantly different conclusions (the entertainer wins on usage, but the appellation and art figure win on long-term significance), the best solution is usually not to have a primary topic. The status quo is the best option. Nothing significant ha changed since the last move proposal.--Trystan (talk) 23:55, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
    • So what happened to the all the incoming links that need to be fixed? Not such a big deal after all? Kauffner (talk) 04:16, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
      • Thats a bit of a fantastically shallow cmt there Kauffner. Well done. Ceoil (talk) 05:14, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
      • Not sure I follow. Disambiguating the incoming links remains a significant ongoing task, but one that is manageable so long as many people monitor it, and so long as no other article is moved where the DAB page is now. My position on this proposed move hasn't changed.--Trystan (talk) 05:23, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Trystan, Necrothesp and others. Ceoil (talk) 03:42, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Yikes, that sounds personal. Maybe someone would like to refactor their comment? Status 04:28, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Not really. Have you no respect, whatever you might think, for two thousand years of belief and iconic tradition. But anyway, lets be honest, this is all just trolling anyway, it aint going to happen. Ceoil (talk) 04:48, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Pretty crappy argument and POV, are you a Lady Gaga fan since trolling seems the new USP? —Indian:BIO · [ ChitChat ] 08:55, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Whatever thats supposed to mean. Ceoil (talk) 09:06, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
  • oppose the primary topic is clearly Mary (mother of Jesus), Mary, mother of God. -- 65.92.180.137 (talk) 05:12, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment though we just went through a similar discussion at Talk:Madonna (art) saying that the art term was the primary topic... which just closed a couple of weeks ago. -- 65.92.180.137 (talk) 05:12, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose due to how overwhelming the long-term significance is: approx. 2,000 years vs. 20-30 years. First Light (talk) 06:02, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose as per First Light. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:23, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Not clearly the primary topic at all. StAnselm (talk) 07:02, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose Per all previous move request consensus. —Indian:BIO · [ ChitChat ] 08:55, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Strongly support. The article "Madonna (entertainer)" is the most watched (consulted) that others; Google results and this has several ramifications (Madonna book, album... ). Crearly is WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, and if it is not, we use common sense. Best regards, Chrishonduras (talk) 11:27, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment: Ceoil, tell me how anything to do with this proposal is "disrespecting" religious beliefs; no one here is disrespecting anything on that level. Second, trying to help Wikipedia is not trolling; it's a proposal for a reason, people discuss their concerns in what is supposed to be a peaceful setting. WikiRedactor (talk) 14:33, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
  • WikiRedactor I accept that. I'm not at all religious myself, but I have to say I find this whole discussion as far beyond ridiculous. I just dont get where ye guys are coming from, but whatever, lets live and let live, others are commenting now so yes, lets not personalise. Ceoil (talk) 16:23, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose for the reasons that have prevailed in the previous move discussions. This is getting tiresome. Deor (talk) 13:25, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Is the idea that making a DAB page primary respects religious belief? I find these pages to be largely useless myself. If the art form had a hat note on the singer's page, that would give it more prominence than it has now. Kauffner (talk) 18:33, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Support. Obviously primary topic based on page view counts. And this is why adding the "long-term significance" criteria to WP:PRIMARYTOPIC is a problem - it allows both sides in RM discussions like this, and countless others, to both have sound arguments based in policy. The idea that both considerations need to be weighed is absurd. Each side can give whatever factor favors their personal preference more weight. Unless we consistently and solely go by the traditional highly likely to be the topic being sought criterion, we're going to just constantly fill the RM backlog with discussions ultimately based on JDLI preferences. --B2C 21:23, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
Nevertheless it is in the policy, and has been for years, and despite the objections of some like yourself, the current proposal to remove it is clearly failing. So let's implement the policy we have. Johnbod (talk) 21:34, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
Actually, all that was in there "for years" is an exception for recentism for WP:VITAL articles, which practically never applied, so was essentially irrelevant. Then, only in 2011, did the consideration for recentism get expanded to apply to any articles in terms of "long-term significance".

It's simply not possible to follow this "policy". It's like changing the law to say green means go and red means stop but only when you're hungry; green means stop and red means go when you're not hungry. Now, everybody, follow that rule! It's utter foolishness to even try to follow a rule like this. --B2C 23:53, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

  • Oppose for all the reasons given above, which I will not reiterate. Ms. Ciccone has a surname, why not use it and avoid any confusion altogether? Mannanan51 (talk) 00:10, 26 February 2013 (UTC)Mannanan51
  • Support. Clearly wins by any definition of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Also, I don't think this is a case of recentism. Madonna has been around for a while and I'm certain she will remain the primary topic at least until everyone born in the 1980s is dead (and perhaps much longer than that). Kaldari (talk) 19:01, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose for all the reasons stated, and one more thought: How long is her staying power? The article title should not be just for the next 5 to 10 years but potentially indefinitely. At some point she will pass into retirement and mentions of the her will decline. Would we go back and change the article then? --Iloilo Wanderer (talk) 03:41, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
I agree to oppose, but not for the last reason - yes, we would. At the moment we have this debate one a year anyway, sadly. Johnbod (talk) 11:00, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose this is just appalling recentism. Thirty years may seem a long time, but in the context, this is certainly 'recentist'. and bad interpretation as to what WP:PRIMARYTOPIC is all about; the proposer needs to let the dust settle, for it's not been long enough time for consensus to change. -- Ohconfucius ping / poke 03:49, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose We've got a centuries old icon versus a commercial artist parasitizing off that meme. I happen to love Madonna Ciccone, and she can stick with that name. μηδείς (talk) 02:52, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Support - partly because Mary, Mother of Jesus already has an article, and in part to get rid of neologism "(entertainer)". If we had to have a disamb it should be Madonna (singer) which isn't on offer this time, but I log it anyway since this is what the subject is known as in reliable sources. 161 results vs "actress madonna" 569 results vs "singer madonna" 3150 results. Why are we pushing the disamb with 161 results rather than the 3150 results? Discussion for another time perhaps. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:43, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
    • Firstly, the argument is not that Madonna should redirect to the Virgin Mary, but that the common usage is and always has been an artistic depiction of the Virgin Mary. Secondly, I would agree that "singer" is the better disambiguator, but that's immaterial to the subject under discussion. -- Necrothesp (talk) 22:02, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

What is Madonna's legal name?

Latest comment: 11 years ago9 comments2 people in discussion

The article implies that she legally shortened her name to just Madonna. However, I couldn't find a statement and source in the article that addresses that matter. The last discussion I read about this matter (before posting this) took place in 2011, and didn't provide any sources that confirmed a name change. The only (somewhat) reliable source I found regarding this was one of Madonna's interviews back in 1985, where she states her full name is Madonna Louisa Veronica Ciccone Penn. (http://mgross.com/writing/books/the-more-things-change/bonus-chapters/madonna-catholic-girl-material-girl-post-liberation-woman/) Granted it's outdated since she's been divorced for a while, but it's something to start with. Whether or not it is determined that her legal name is her birth name or simply Madonna, we need to add a reliable source for either one; I'm surprised we don't already have one. WikiRedactor (talk) 20:47, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Interesting the article says her birth name was "Madonna Louise Ciccone", when she herself says her legal name (in 1985) was "Madonna Louisa Veronica Ciccone Penn".  — Statυs (talk, contribs) 20:57, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
Eh, it was probably just in error.  — Statυs (talk, contribs) 21:04, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
I just found an image of her divorce papers. It states her name as being Madonna Louise Ciccone. Of course, a lot of things could have happened in that time.  — Statυs (talk, contribs) 21:07, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
Something else I found The letterhead identified the sender as “Mrs. Ritchie” — Madonna’s legal name during her eight-year marriage to British director Guy Ritchie.  — Statυs (talk, contribs) 21:13, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
Definitely valid starting points! Hopefully if we dig a little deeper we'll find something a little bit more recent. WikiRedactor (talk) 21:42, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
Lawsuit from October 2012 (http://www.rfcexpress.com/lawsuits/trademark-lawsuits/california-central-district-court/110985/brando-enterprises-lp-v-madonna-louise-ciccone-et-al/summary/) I think we may have something here! WikiRedactor (talk) 21:55, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
I'm going to go ahead and add this in the article. WikiRedactor (talk) 21:36, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
Great! I wonder what happened to Veronica.  — Statυs (talk, contribs) 02:49, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Queen of Pop... Again

Latest comment: 11 years ago26 comments10 people in discussion

A debate was started on February 13th, to discuss the use of the alias Queen of Pop in the artlicles introductions. Next day, I said that I was going to participate when I had time and if it was necessary that I will start a new debate. However, I never had the time to get involve and the discussion was solved the same day with all votes against the change. It is not the first time that this topic is discussed; however I believe that the arguments presented were inaccurate. Therefore, I will like to present new arguments.

Madonna is not the only artist that has been regarded as the Queen of Pop; several new and old artists have received the same title, but the references to support the use of those aliases in singers like Diana Ross are unfounded and inconsequential. In this specific example, the article states the Ross is the reigning queen of pop culture, which is like stating that Andy Warhol is the King of Pop (pop, translates to Pop art and Pop culture, not necessarily pop music) or Marisol Escobar. As well, in the Article Honorific nicknames in popular music, there is a reference that is used on three different artists which states that during the 1990s Mariah Carey, Celine Dion and Whitney Houston were regarded as the Queen of Pop, and the problem with this is that is stated as a question and not as a fact, also that we are no longer in that decade and the three are named as queens at the same time. Focusing on Celine Dion, there is a reference from a Canadian source stating Our Queen of Pop, which means that she is referred with that title in Canada and not necessarily around the world. These reference and information irregularities are evident on several other artists.

Since 1980 until now Madonna has been regarded as the Queen of Pop by several sources throughout the world, and this fact only applies to Madonna’s particular case which can be easily demonstrated with several sources. Some references (four decades: 80's, 90's, 00's, 10's)

1980's
1990's
2000's
2010's

All litter examples. This means that she has been named the Queen of Pop more than any other artist, even more than Houston with all the obituaries. Several music critics and journalists continue to regard Madonna as the “eternal” and “indisputable” Queen of Pop, and not only in English sources but in other languages as well like French, German, Italian, Portuguese, Catalan, etc. Are there references from different years and languages that support the alias of Queen of Pop in other artists? I don’t think so. Madonna is clearly regarded as the Queen of Pop worldwide, not only by the press but by sociologists, critics and other intellectuals, and especially by the IFPI and the Guinness World Records book.

In order to maintain neutrality (we introduce information with all its sides and shades and we don’t have to act as judges of the information) and to present trustworthy information I suggest:

  • Mantain all aliases in the introduction stated in a way to prevent biases, and keeping in consideration if these aliases apply to all the countries in the world or just the United States and the United Kingdom.
  • Keep all aliases in the infobox and the introduction
  • Keep all aliases only in the infobox

Best regards, Chrishonduras (talk) 01:18, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

The only actual mention of her being the Queen of Pop in the article is "In 2011, Rolling Stone declared her as the all-time Queen of Pop and stated that'"Madonna is a musical icon without peer.'" I think it's pretty obvious that a lot of women have been cited as being the Queen of Pop, however, as Rolling Stone states, she is the "all-time", so yes, it should be included more in the article. To what extent, I don't know. I think it would be a good amount doing it as much as it is for Michael Jackson.  — Statυs (talk, contribs) 21:44, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Okay, Status thank your for your comment. I clarify one thing: Rolling Stone is not the only means that it has named Madonna as the eternal or undisputed "Queen of Pop" are many and not only English-language media; To cite a few examples:
  • The Luxe Chronicles (2012): [45]
  • UK Daily Mail (2008 +): [49]
  • ImpreMedia (2012 +): [54]

I can continue to appoint more ... Until this It is exactly the opposite with other artists. Best regards, Chrishonduras (talk) 22:45, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Oh, yes, of course. I was just using it as an example as it was already in the article.    — Statυs (talk, contribs) 03:26, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
Comment: Personally, I don't have much interest with this topic anymore. But honestly, almost all English-language reputed media have written Madonna as the Queen of Pop. Yes, several female artists are labeled the same, but NONE of them are as extensive and enduring as Madonna (80s, 90s, 00s, 10s). Just type Google the media you want to find for the title by using this searching format, such as BBC like this >> "site:bbc.co.uk Madonna Queen of Pop" or CNN like this >> "site:cnn.com Madonna Queen of Pop" — Bluesatellite (talk) 01:41, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Personally, as an usual en-es traslator, I support Chrishonduras's point of view. Regards, мιѕѕ мαηzαηα (let's talk) 03:10, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment: How exactly will we include information about her being the Queen of Pop?  — Statυs (talk, contribs) 03:26, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
Why can't we just mention that she is the Queen of Pop per universal media coverage. Not a local artist you know, but its the universal press, academics, journalists calling her that. So illustrating it in the legacy and the header would do. —Indian:BIO · [ ChitChat ] 12:32, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
Comment: A good range of source material (some with dubious content, I'm not sure whether "pop queen" is honorific or colloquial in some) which I think probably would warrant a larger mention in legacy and in the last paragraph of the lead. I am strongly opposed to it being adopted as an alias of some sorts, I don't think that can be established by the source material in the same way as it has for Michael Jackson. —Jennie | ☎ 18:08, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Sorry Jennie--x I disagree with your point. What is MJ's deal here?. I mean, We must analyze each case, in this context (Queen of Pop) You can clearly see that Madonna has been aknowldegded as queen of pop globally in the opposite with other artists. There are also artists like Shakira, Thalía, Gloria Estefan who have been called "Queen of Latin Pop" but also "The Latin Madonna". Gloria Trevi or Yuri: "The Mexican Madonna". Rihanna or Beyoncé "The Black Madonna". Lady Gaga or Britney Spears: "The New Madonna" and more ("The Japanese Madonna", "Madonna of Asia"...). Sorry but no, your argument has no consistency. And yes, I agree with you about extending this on the Legacy section but It is our duty to appoint as such in the lead that Madonna is well recognized, because this is what an introduction is about, isn't it?. Chrishonduras (talk) 18:52, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

If you read my comment carefully, I say I agree with a mention in the lead, just not the term being adopted as an alias. The problem is that Michael Jackson was synonymous with the term (and there are sources that say this), but the same isn't said of Madonna. I agree she has received the title substantially (perhaps even the most), but to argue that it should be an alias (that is, it should be adopted as an "Other name" in the infobox or in the first sentence) is unfounded. —Jennie | ☎ 19:39, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
      • Okay, no problem. I'm so sorry because I'm not a native English speaker (I didn't understand your message =). One thing, remember that many times Michael Jackson has been named "King of Pop" on par with Madonna as "Queen of Pop" (some books: [55], [56], [57], [58], [59], [60], [61]....). Beyond that, Michael Jackson was/is/still synonymous of "King of Pop", certainly, and about Madonna is clear that She is the most perpetual "Queen of Pop" (globally and all possible contexts; in fact, though not abundant as MJ, some media have said the nickname Queen of Pop is basically a synonym in she). The MJ's lead say: "Often referred to as the 'King of Pop', or by his initials MJ"; with Madonna not is applicable, but mention may be made in different ways introducing. As you say Jennie: "last paragraph of the lead" or in this context: Madonna is known for continuously reinventing both her music and image, and for retaining a standard of autonomy within the recording industry. She attained immense popularity by pushing the boundaries of lyrical content in mainstream popular music and imagery in her music videos, which became a fixture on MTV. Critics have praised her diverse musical productions which have also been known to induce controversy.

What do others think?. Best regards, Chrishonduras (talk) 23:25, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Comment: While the term was used as a temporary nick name on other female singers, it definately became an alias to Madonna. --Watquaza (talk) 04:53, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Avoid These peacock terms are best avoided in Wikipedia. They are unencyclopedic and ill defined. I have just come from a similar RfC about whether London or NYC should be called the 'financial capital of the world'. There were plenty of sources supporting both cities but the consensus was not to say that about either city. Even deciding what such terms mean requires OR, which is not our job. Let us stick to reporting facts. Martin Hogbin (talk) 23:55, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
Hi all! Well I agree with that he put the alias in the article. I know that many artists have been named as "Queen of Pop", as indicated Chrishonduras, but we all know that Madonna is the only "Queen of Pop". They say newspapers, magazines, specialized in music critics, etc. Summing up, I support the inclusion in the lead. Greetings! --190.228.234.64 (talk) 00:28, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

I approve of the title "Queen of Pop" to e included in the lead. Madonna's the very first singer to have received that title, was referred to that countless times and is the most successful female musician in history. Just like Michael Jackson, she was inducted into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame. Israell (talk) 01:37, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Been a long time. As I have shown previously with [some] several sources, and as we all know, Madonna is often referred as the Queen of Pop by the press [international]. In order to include this information in the introduction I suggest the inclusion of the following phrase in the first paragraph of the article: "She is often referred by the press as the Queen of Pop".... With that, I suggest as well the addition of a note like this one: "Several artists have [also] been called ocassionally by the press as the Queen of Pop such as the case of Janet Jackson and Whitney Houston. My proposal is simple [and is neutral] and does not have any value judgments or fallacies like Argumentum ad populum. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chrishonduras (talk • contribs) 21:50, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

The note isn't necessary, you can claim she has been referred to as the "Queen of Pop" without trying to argue it through. I disagree with a mention in the first sentence, I don't think it's something that important, as say, her being the best-selling female musician in history. I'm also not convinced that the term is synonymous with her, as there isn't a source that says this yet. —Jennie | ☎ 22:48, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

It is clear that all alias belongs to nobody, including "King of Pop"; but good I have no problem with that (When its this happens with artists such as Presley, Jackson, Cher or Spears; I can say -and demonstrate- that in the context of Madonna and "Queen of Pop", other artists who have been so called ocasionally with this nick, have also been called as "Madonna" (clearly, worldwide media); This is a context that does not happen with other artists, as Queen of Rock, Queen of Soul...). Anyway, thank you all for participating. Regards, Chrishonduras (talk) 23:01, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

I strongly believe the note should be kept with the third party validations that Chris added. —Indian:BIO · [ ChitChat ] 04:38, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Thank You for your comment, BIO. Well, I have analyzed the situation and Jennie and her editing is well. Since in that section is about the relationship of the press and Madonna. Maybe we could specify more that Madonna has been treated as well since the 1980s, is a fact, with specific references ([62] and/or [63]) or common sense (the references I have presented above; 1980s until present).

In any case, I think that this counterproposal will be the last (permanent, determinate...), because it is largely a fact that Madonna is referred as "Queen of Pop" to by the world press and critics or journalists of music (sources by variants, e.g Rolling Stone US, Rolling Stone Argentina, Rolling Stone Spain; Reuters Spain, Reuters France); year by year, e.g BBC News 2000, BBC News 2001, BBC News 2002, BBC News 2003, BBC News 2004, BBC News 2005....; the only one with these terms: "undisputed, eternal". As well to scientific journals, popular culture or of political (in short, any reference unlabeled), etc. In the end, all possibles contexts and this is exactly the opposite with other artists (including the "Madonnas" and all temporary pop queens -all variants-; Rihanna or Beyoncé = "Black Madonna", Gloria Trevi or Yuri = "Mexican Madonna", Shakira, Gloria Estefan or Thalía = "Latin Madonna"; Lady Gaga or Gwen Stefani = "The Next Madonna".... etc, etc). Best regards, Chrishonduras (talk) 01:33, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Chris, I just thought that it would be better if the validations are present, since it is likely that this discussion will crop up from time to time and there would be users who would remove it continuously. The third party sources makes us validate it. —Indian:BIO · [ ChitChat ] 05:35, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, I thought about this when I added the note. If this happened (since it is likely that this discussion will crop up from time to time and there would be users who would remove it continuously) definitely will have to insert the note and emphasize this discussion. Right now, all for common sense :). Regards, Chrishonduras (talk) 05:49, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

The note is unnecessary and the comparison to other artists comes across as if your subordinating others from receiving the term, it actually in some ways is peacocking (the very thing it seeks not to do). I don't think people can or will contest what you've stated - "She is often referred to by international media as the Queen of Pop" - and to me, seems fine. I'd choose the best sources and include them in-line. (Or, if you do want to include a note, refrain from mentioning other artists). —Jennie | ☎ 10:02, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
"In 2011, Rolling Stone declared her as the all-time Queen of Pop and stated that "Madonna is a musical icon without peer." << Why not move this up from the "Legacy" section into the lead? I think it summarises the sources well. —Jennie | ☎ 10:04, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Well, the comparison to other artists no is necessary. The rest of the note? It may be relevant then add. Regards, Chrishonduras (talk) 14:38, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

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