Talk:List of oldest schools

[Untitled]

I think this list will become unmanageable if we include all schools from the 1800s onwards. We need to set a limit. Should the list perhaps be confined to schools founded before 1700 or before 1600? Dahliarose (talk) 15:33, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Agreed Greggydude (talk) 09:06, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

I went to Lincoln Christ's Hospital School, which proclaimed to have roots back until 1090. However, the realistic length of time the school had actual been operating as it is was more like 100 years. Therefore, there also needs to be a decision about what counts as the founding date of various schools 131.111.202.136 (talk) 17:05, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

What should go into this list ? Should it be deleted ?

It is unclear what this list is good for, what should go into this list and whether the most relevant (the oldest) entries will ever be added. The biggest problem with the current form of the list is that there are no references at all. In the current form, I propose deletion of this list.

It is clear that every pupil now adds HIS school (which he thinks is most important, of course), founded in 1823 (or wasnt there some mentioning from the 16th century?). Lots of schools have been added this way (and I see mostly UK schools, but there is also the (almost identical) list of UK schools http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_oldest_schools_in_the_United_Kingdom ). I further propose that each and every list entry MUST have a valid reference or it should be deleted (the "unreferenced" template seems to be on top of the article since a year now.).

Some words about the "missing content": The first known schools ? What about Babylon, Egypt, Greece, Rome ? They had schools for sure, e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peripatetic_school Even if the list is closed at 1000 there are loads of schools to be added (there are some 10 or 20 other countries in the world that had schools a thousand years ago ...). You could say, only schools that are still active (and always have been), but thats again difficult to find out.

Summary:

• add the really old schools from egypt, china, greece,..
• get a reference for each entry

or DELETE THIS LIST. --89.27.217.18 (talk) 22:55, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

I've removed the proposed deletion tag. In response to your points: As the intro makes clear, this is a list of the oldest extant schools. If you are aware of any extant schools in former Babylon, please contribute them to the list. You are right that continuous activity may not always be straightforward, but reliable sourcing of claims should normally suffice. The list should have references, but many of the linked articles contain the references. Instead of immediately deleting the content some effort should be made to find, verify, and add the references here. The list has a natural cutoff point - currently the year 1600. If the list becomes too long this will probably be adjusted. As you've suggested most future additions are likely to be from outside the UK, so the list is likely to increasingly differ from the list of oldest UK schools. In summary, there seems to be no reason to prefer deletion over improvement. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 00:06, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Good list but there are many "extant" schools that have been around since the earliest in your list and before in other countries. I can think of China and India (I'm sure there are others) though I'm not very knowledgeable on these, but also in the Islamic world where "traditions" of learning were established at the outset of the religion and later on formalised into schools ("madrasas"), the culmination of which was the establishment of a "university" at Al Azhar in Cairo (still extant) in 970AD. I'll see what I can dig up with references but you may have to be ready to expand your definition of "school" since early Islamic systems and methods of learning and transmitting knoweldge followed a different philosophy and route than in the Christian west. This is if you intend to still keep this list in the first place. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.182.234.84 (talk) 21:23, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Cut-off point needed

This list is getting quite out of hand. Schools founded in the 1800s and 1900s can hardly be classified as "old". I suggest cutting out at least the nineteenth and twentieth century, and preferably the eighteenth century too. There would be hundreds of UK schools alone that could be added from this period. Dahliarose (talk) 23:12, 13 September 2010 (UTC) Perhaps the limit should be number of schools. Eg the oldest 100? Greggydude (talk) 09:18, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps it would be useful to somehow divide the list into oldest per country/region. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 09:56, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

There are already other lists for the oldest schools in England and the oldest schools in the United States. There seems little point in duplicating these lists here with the hundreds of schools that were set up in the 1800s or even 1700s. I would suggest confining the list to pre-1700 or even pre-1600, with detail lists of later schools being maintained for individual countries if required. Dahliarose (talk) 14:00, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Schools worth noting

• Chengdu Shishi High School ~ 141 BC but had periods of inactivity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ChaseKiwi (talk • contribs) 22:21, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

It seems unavoidable for many oldest schools to halt their operations for a short period of time especially during the war time and riots. Wondering if all schools on the list managed to open in every school day since it's found?

The criteria for this list seems to be arbitrary and vague. Are we here to collect The list of oldest surviving schools before the 1800s without periods of inactivity over 1 year and without changing its original name?

Would it be simpler to just collect The list of Oldest Surviving Schools?

Keep it simple. --Winstonlighter (talk) 20:33, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Chengdu High school was inactive for over 500 years. It is just a school built in the 1600s on the site of a much earlier school.

Contrast this to the King's School, Canterbury that has been a centre of learning since 597 AD with no recorded breaks of over a year, other than it's evacuation during the Second World War. But the school was active in Cornwall instead.

Chengdu High School also has no references to support it.151.230.133.20 (talk) 14:41, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

It has few English reference, but it's recorded through out Chinese history books. Chinese Official History books works in a way that the current dynasty publish all the political and social activity records of the previous dynasty. See here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_historiography Electronixtar (talk) 04:01, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Should Chengdu High School be deleted?151.230.133.20 (talk) 10:58, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Chengdu Shishi High School was not inactive for over 500 years. It continued to late Ming Dynasty (17th Century) and then was destroyed by wars in Sichuan. Early in Qing Dynasty, in 1661, the school was rebuilt. In different dynasties, the school may have different forms and education systems. Today, the form and system of the high school is totally different with 2000 years ago. However, it doesn't mean it is a different school. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.85.95.57 (talk) 20:55, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Public/ Private/ State School

Many of schools listed are described as being public/ private/ state schools.

As "public" has different meanings depending on which country you live in. I suggest we only use the terms "private" and "state" to describe whether or not it is government run.151.230.133.20 (talk) 11:05, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

I agree, it's an ambiguous term and the article is better off without it. I also intend to remove the school in Chengdu. The objection has repeatedly been made that most very old schools have at some time suspended operations for short periods (wars, riots). In fact, I've very rarely heard of a school suspending teaching and I see no evidence this applies to any of the schools in this list. If any did cease to exist for short periods, they can be considered on a case by case basis and might be removed, as the Minster School was. So far I see no need to set a definite cut off period of, say, one year. --Lo2u ^{(T • C)} 15:36, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Chengdu Shishi Middle School

Just to reiterate my comments above. I have many friends in Chengdu, I have visited and I know at least a little about the school. My understanding is that it was destroyed and stayed destroyed for generations. Even though residents like to claim that it is 2,000 years old, they readily acknowledge that the history is not continuous. That also seems to be what is implied by the Wikipedia article on the school. Two schools are not the same if they were merely built on the same site. As I have already said, many other schools have been disallowed for the same reason, The Minster School, York for instance. --Lo2u ^{(T • C)} 16:00, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

I think you need to give the definition of different schools. A school is destroyed but rebuilt again, and keep the same name and same education, why they are two different schools? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.85.95.57 (talk) 20:45, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

1. (regarding your summary) It is up to you to provide evidence for inclusion of something, not me to disprove it. That is the policy laid out in WP:VERIFY. 2. I have no way of knowing whether there are many users adding this or one user with a dynamic IP address. 3. Refounding something and giving it the same name doesn't make it the same institution. Obviously if it did anybody could easily establish "the oldest school in the world". Nor does a change in name disqualify something from this list. 4. Your addition is inconsistent with everything else in this list and with similar lists such as List of oldest universities in continuous operation, where, for example, Paris University is excluded. If you want to change the policy to allow refoundations, you need to get consensus rather than simply adding your favourite and that will require the addition of many other schools. --Lo2u ^{(T • C)} 06:23, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Reply to 1: I have added one more reference to the school. Reply to 3: We have different understanding about the rebuilding. If any school is unfortunately destroyed by fire or wars which could happen even today, after some years the school is rebuilt, according to your opinion, it is another school? So once such things happen to any school on the list, no matter it is rebuilt or not, we should exclude it? Reply to 4: I don't have enough knowledge to say if all the other schools are continuous or not, but Chengdu Shishi High School is continuous for 2000 years except for the time when it was destroyed by fire and during wars, which is not the case you mentioned, for example, University of Paris. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.85.95.57 (talk) 08:53, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. Your account of its history is frankly misleading. It wasn't destroyed and then rebuilt. It was destroyed and abandoned and then decades or centuries later another school was put on the same site. All you have provided is an incomplete reference to a self-published source and a source for the original building of the school. Absolutely nothing reliable to say it has a continuous history, because it doesn't. That is the criteria for inclusion here. --Lo2u ^{(T • C)} 11:57, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

You said the school was abandoned for centuries several times (even some users use the number of 500 years), could you please provide the time? From which year or which dynasty to which year or dynasty. If you can provide the evidence, I can check the local history record of Chengdu City according to the time you provide. And please define "another school". If you think the reference is incomplete, you can challenge the reference, other users can add more to it, for example, the local history records from Han Dynasty through all the dynasties to modern China. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.235.201.120 (talk) 14:57, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Centuries is what is implied, if not explicitly stated, by this sentence in the article on the school: "The school continued through the Northern Song Dynasty, but by the late Ming Dynasty only rubble remained". Can't you provide the dates anyway? If a school is abandoned and allowed to fall into ruins and two generations later some different people build a school there, most people would define that as a different school. Usually to be the oldest of something a continuous history is needed. The House of Elzevir is not the same as Elsevier. The Modern Olympic Games are not the same as the Ancient Olympic Games. The University of Northampton (thirteenth century) is not the same as the University of Northampton. Do you accept that This school does not have a continuous history? I think you do because you acknowledge that above. I really don't understand how you can honestly claim to believe this belongs. --Lo2u ^{(T • C)} 15:40, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

In late Ming Dynasty, Zhang Xianzhong occupied Chengdu in 1644-1646, during this time, Chengdu City was almost destroyed and many residents were killed, the school was for sure damaged, with only rubble remained. Early in Qing Dynasty, in 1661, the government rebuilt the school. I can't be sure if it was exactly the same people who rebuilt the school or totally different group of people, but in my opinion if the traditional education system was still there, why do we have to care who actually did the rebuilding work? Of course the Modern Olympic Games are not the same as the Ancient Olympic Games, simply because the ancient one was abandoned by the ruler and the modern one was started after 1500 years. The example of University of Northampton is similar to Olympic Games. I agree with you that they don't have continuous history. But, the two examples are not the same case as Chengdu Shishi High School, because it was not abandoned by the rulers in history, it was destroyed by city fire and wars which are irresistible disasters and could happen to any schools on the list even today. After such disasters, the school was rebuilt and became normal again. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.85.95.57 (talk) 19:30, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Description on the school wiki page is not very clear. The reason might be that wikipedia is blocked by the government in China. Unfortunately the Chinese people who know well about the school history can't access to wiki and contribute. But improvement on the school page is needed for sure. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.85.95.57 (talk) 19:45, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Why are there no references for the school? As the first one on the list it should surely have some sort of reference.87.81.196.100 (talk) 19:56, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Post-secondary schools

The lead says this list excludes universities and higher education establishments; consequently I have removed the following from this article. I supposed they should be moved to List of oldest universities in continuous operation.

• Al-Azhar University,Egypt (c972)
• Yuelu Academy, China (976) - one of the four most renowned academies during the Song Dynasty, it was renamed Hunan University in 1926.
• University of Bologna, Italy (1088)
• Istanbul University, Istanbul, Turkey (1453)

If they are moved elsewhere, please mark them  Done. YBG (talk) 08:20, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

References

Tagging

1. Tags at the head of an article do not help the reader, remember WP:RF. Whilst they have a place for major problems, adding them promiscuously doesn't help; try correcting any perceived shortcomings instead.
2. I've removed {{Refimprove}}, the list has changed a lot since then and most schools have their own pages. Generally lists are just lists, pages contain the information.
3. {{globalize/West}} is a bit odd, the first school mentioned is in China! The first paragraph contains the sentence "The list is a work-in-progress, and there will inevitably be many omissions, particularly for schools in non-English-speaking countries.", what does the tag add? If you have any documented additions, just add them.

Over to you! Martin of Sheffield (talk) 21:22, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Dunfermline High School

See talk:Dunfermline High School for a discussion on the date of founding. Currently available evidence indicates that there were two Dunfermline schools between 1468 and 1560. One was the old monastic school in the Abbey (founded 1120), the other a new school in the town. I'm therefore moving Dunfermline High School from 12th to 15th century. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 11:53, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

Move

Can someone please explain how a discussion in Talk:List of tallest buildings should automatically apply to this page? The move is poorly thought out: there are pages entitled "List of the oldest schools in XYZ" (see for example the Sri Lankan page, removing "in the world" renders it ambiguous. This is at best discourteous to those editors who have worked on the page and at worst confusing to the readership: WP:RF should have applied. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 09:53, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

My apologies, Martin. Let's see what others think. I invite them to join this discussion. Best, Anna Frodesiak (talk) 10:30, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

But how is this new title ambiguous? Best, Anna Frodesiak (talk) 10:34, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Because it isn't clear of where they are the oldest schools. BTW, where has the definite article gone? It's best to keep to standard English, readers may not all be educated in WikiGnome. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 13:17, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Hi Martin. I think there was pretty clear consensus that when "in the world" is omitted, it implies "obviously on Earth". I just do not see how somebody could read "List of oldest schools" and wonder if that possibly means "obviously in Tanzania", or ask themselves "Oldest, but where?".

As for omitting the "the", that is completely conventional across Wikipedia. For that matter, so is omitting "in the world". Moving this article was just the last of dozens of other page moves to titles that now fall into the convention of thousands and thousands of others that always omitted "in the world". Anna Frodesiak (talk) 02:54, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

• I agree with Anna. No need to state the obvious repeatedly in list titles. lNeverCry 03:09, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

(For transparency, I'd like to say that I posted here to get some views. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 03:18, 7 December 2016 (UTC))

Ah! Just throw me right under the bus! lNeverCry 03:23, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

You don't need to invite the gang. The change has been made, I'm not arguing to revert (WP:STICK). As you are an admin I accept you are free to make such changes, but I still think it might have courteous to drop a note on affected pages. Regards, Martin of Sheffield (talk) 10:55, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Hi Martin. Please AGF. Using "gang" suggests I am part of a group that sticks together. Nothing could be futher from the truth. In fact, look at other interactions between the supporters at the AfC and me. You will see plenty of disagreement. There is no gang. Plus, I went to Project Lists specifically to prevent any risk of such an impression. I just wanted other eyes on this in case I was wrong, not to seek support for my viewpoint. Feel free to search Project List talk archives and you will see that I have had few interactions with participants there.

This was a non-admin action. I have no greater right than anyone in editing matters. If you think this was a bad page move, just say and I will move it back until consensus is reached.

As for a note, I did not think it necessary to drop an individual note on several talk pages to explain. And to explain what? What I already did? The edit summary explained that. Should I have posted ahead of time saying what I wanted to do? That seems like it would have been a bad idea. What if several people objected and then separate discussions go on and on across several talk pages? That was what the RfC was meant to prevent.

I did in fact inspect all of the pages before moving and decided against moving a few of them. This was an easy move decision because of the RfC. You objected specifically because you felt it created ambiguity while that objection was clearly covered in that AfC. The community clearly feels that removing "in the world" does not create ambiguity, and articles that omit that phrase are the convention.

Finally, with great respect, I was AGF and never meant to upset you. I would never have done this if I knew it would upset anyone. I made those moves feeling comfortable that they would meet with no objections. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 22:32, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

@Martin of Sheffield: It would be courteous of you to stop whining and go about your business. Right now you're sitting here wasting Anna's time, when she could be doing much better things than coddling you. Move along and go do something productive. lNeverCry 23:16, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

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Fly-by tagging

@Mr. Guye: – Still awaiting details of your problems with the list from January. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 10:27, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

• @Martin of Sheffield: I got rid of the "rewrite" one, since I don't remember why I put it there. The original research problem has been improved, so I got rid of that too. I still stand by the {{Globalize}} tag, since the list of schools seem to be disproportionately from England, as well as Europe generally. — Mr. Guye (talk) (contribs)  16:44, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

I half agree with you, but only half. It is always worth remembering that this is the English Language WP, and as such most editors will use English Language sources. At the list's cut-off date not many parts of the world spoke English.

The oldest extant school in the Americas would appear to be Boston Latin School from 1635, but this list terminates at 1600. Next I suspect that virtually all of Africa except possibly Egypt or Ethiopia are unlikely to have any sourced extant schools that have been around for 400 years. Asiatic Russia was barely settled by 1600, so again I doubt there would be many school that have survived the Tsars, Communism and today's Russia. That leaves only India, China and Japan outside of Europe. For political reasons China is problematical, but more input from those countries would be welcome if the sources exist.

There are getting to be more European schools mentioned. The history of Europe is fairly turbulent and there are few institutions with a history longer that a couple of centuries. Where there are such institutions then often documentation has been lost. If you want to research European schools and add them it would be most welcome, this is the area I agree with you on.

In another area I've been working on foreign language WPs and using {{ill}} to bring them into lists. Perhaps you could contribute to the list in that manner?

Regards, Martin of Sheffield (talk) 17:10, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

Flade St. Gallen

Are we sure the school Flade in St. Gallen is so old? In there site (and in Wiki in German) is written it has been founded in 1808.

vd — Preceding unsigned comment added by Viorayli (talk • contribs) 22:36, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Queen Elizabeth's Academy

Queen Elizabeth's Academy, Atherstone, Warwickshire. I've some doubts about the claimed date. Can interested editors discuss it there. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 10:24, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

Non western schools?

I'm sure there's something we can find, search else as europe. --Joujyuze (talk) 17:37, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Orthodox brotherhoods had their own schools.

It is known that the Lviv brotherhood school founded in 1463. The Kyiv brotherhood and school were founded in 1615. The Lutsk brotherhood school founded in 1617.

The Kyiv brotherhood was also transformed into the Kyiv-Mohyla Collegium in 1632. And the Kyiv-Mohyla Academy in 1659.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_brotherhood 89.105.249.217 (talk) 21:02, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

There may be a couple of problems here though. First, many of these schools were closed during periods of Russian and communist so they fail the "continuous operation since founded" test. Next, from a brief look at National University of Kyiv-Mohyla Academy it would appear that (in their modern guise at least) they are universities, not "schools, excluding universities and higher education establishments", so fail the second test. If you have reliable sources outside WP, it would be helpful if you could give them so that a fair and balanced judgement can be made. Regards, Martin of Sheffield (talk) 22:26, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Collegio Rotondi

There appears to be no article describing the Collegio Rotondi and supporting the claim to a date of 1599. I've looked in the Italian WP and can't see an article there either. @Liuc.claudia: - can you supply supporting evidence please? Martin of Sheffield (talk) 10:38, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

there is a draft page on the Collegio which is currently waiting to be reviewed Liuc.claudia (talk) 10:40, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Great. Once that goes live it will be an adequate source for the date. Can you clarify one thing though:

In 1599 Gorla Minore was governed by the Terzaghi family, native of Milan. Giovanni Terzaghi, the major canon of the Duomo, had no heirs and bequeathed his properties to the Oblates with the commitment to perpetually sustain the vitality of the Church of Saint Maurice and to create a place dedicated to the education of children.

In 1629, the Collegio of Oblates was established for young people from Gorla Minore and neighboring areas. Operated by religious personnel, the institute originated as a boys’ boarding school. ...

This seems to imply that the properties were given to the church in 1599, but the school itself was only founded in 1629, some 30 years later. Regards, Martin of Sheffield (talk) 11:34, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

From 1599 the Oblates started to teach in the building to some children of the area but then the place became so popular they decided to add classes and call it an actual Collegio in 1629. So you could say it was used as a school from 1599 but it ufficially became one in 1629 Liuc.claudia (talk) 12:03, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Flade

@Cerberus™: From the German Wikipedia, Flade School appears to only date from 1808: "The school was founded in 1808". It appears to have been built in the buildings of the former monastery school (ante 819 to 1805) but not to be directly connected to it. I include the GoogleTranslate version of the history below; the school website appears to be silent on this point. Before I remove the entry from the list, can anyone add additional information or comments please.

The history books are silent about the year the monastery school in St. Gallen was founded. There is evidence that the famous Carolingian monastery plan from 819 already listed an internal and an external school. Otmar probably set up an educational center in “his” monastery at the beginning of the 8th century, at least for novices, because the Rule of Benedict that he introduced requires the monks to have knowledge of writing and language. One of the oldest schools north of the Alps was created in St. Gallen . Although the external school was reserved for the richer and more influential citizens, at the time it was the only way to receive an education in the fine arts (Latin, mathematics, church music). School education at that time was reserved for boys. For many centuries, the monks of the monastery made a name for themselves through the way they passed on their knowledge to the next generation with strict discipline and supervision.

At the end of the 13th and 14th centuries, many abbots began to exchange their crosiers for swords and seek fame on horseback and in distant lands. The monastery slowly fell into disrepair, and its importance as an educational institution would probably have been completely forgotten without the efforts of Abbot Ulrich Rösch . He led the monastery to new strength and saved it from complete decline. It is probably thanks to him that the monastery survived the turmoil of the Reformation and Counter-Reformation practically unscathed. After 1620, partly due to the turmoil of the Thirty Years' War , which affected studying in Germany, the abbots of St. Gallen decided to no longer send their offspring to foreign universities. Initially in a branch monastery, later in the main monastery of St. Gallen itself, an in-house theological faculty was set up.

The monastery school closed its doors in 1805 when the monastery and princely abbey were dissolved. Creation of today's school

In 1808/09, a “Catholic foundation high school” was built in the former monastery building, the first rector of which was Alois Vock , and the “citizen school” with a boarding school, as the students came from different towns.

Let's say by 24 April please. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 18:43, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

@Cerberus™: Right, I'm going to be WP:BOLD and revert the edit. If anyone can find information that supports the inclusion, please come here with it. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 08:43, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Oops, I should have marked that as a small edit: I merely wanted to correct the grammar, because "ending 7th century" would mean it ended in the 7th century, while "late 7th century / end of the 7th century" was no doubt intended; "ending" was probably a Germanism or Batavism, e.g. "Ende/eind" x-th century. So I had no idea about the age of the school and did not mean to express an opinion on it. If your research invalidates the whole century, I have no objections to its deletion. — Cerberus™ (talk) 04:42, 29 April 2024 (UTC)