Talk:List of monuments and memorials removed during the George Floyd protests/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Retaliation for Colston statue removal

The damaged headstone and footstone on the grave of an enslaved African man, in St Mary's churchyard, in Bristol, England, Thursday June 18, 2020, which have been vandalised in an apparent "retaliation attack" following the toppling of a statue of slave trader Edward Colston during anti-racist protests held in the wake of the killing of George Floyd in the US. The Grade II-listed, brightly painted memorial to Scipio Africanus have been smashed and a message was scrawled in…

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/slave-s-grave-vandalized-in-uk-city-in-apparent-retaliation/ar-BB15Fx8Y

deisenbe (talk) 10:15, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

This is mentioned now at the Scipio Africanus (slave) and Statue of Edward Colston articles. gobonobo ^{+ c} 12:31, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Brownsville TX Confederate monument removed

https://www.krgv.com/videos/confederate-monument-removed-from-brownsville-park/

deisenbe (talk) 10:22, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

 Done Added to the tables. Normal Op (talk) 18:28, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Washington DC: George Preston Marshall Statue Removed From Outside RFK Stadium

https://www.si.com/nfl/2020/06/19/george-preston-marshall-statue-removed-rfk-stadium

deisenbe (talk) 15:28, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

 Done Already on the list. Normal Op (talk) 18:41, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Protest movement appearing in college locker rooms

https://www.si.com/college/2020/06/15/mike-gundy-oklahoma-state-shirt-chuba-hubbard?li_source=LI&li_medium=m2m-rcw-sports-illustrated

deisenbe (talk) 16:10, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

 Off-topic

University of North Carolina trustees repeal ban on renaming campus buildings

http://www.ncpolicywatch.com/2020/06/18/momentum-swells-in-nc-to-remove-confederate-white-supremacist-monuments-and-symbols/&ct=ga&cd=CAEYDCoTNjEyNDE1MzUzNDQyMTE3NjUyNjIaOGRmYjk0ZWNmZGIyOTZiNjpjb206ZW46VVM&usg=AFQjCNEHgop5USnGEnSmMmVQHLzyUR3meQ

https://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/education/article243461746.html

deisenbe (talk) 09:39, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Moved to

User:Deisenbe/sandbox/Monument removals, because this is a "watch list" item. Normal Op (talk) 18:50, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

article organization

The current date based organization of this article doesn't seem to be very helpful. If you are coming to the page to find out the type of monuments or how they were removed you have to really dig to find what you are looking for. I suggest changing this into a list style article and organizing it by type of monument. I suggest four sections 1) Monuments and memorials 2)Buildings 3)Names 4)other with columns listing date of announcement of removal, date of removal, form or removal, an image of the monument, and notes to describe what went down. If there isn't large disagreement about this, I will start reorganizing it tomorrow.Found5dollar (talk) 00:37, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

• Definitely agree with this. I wonder if a section belongs here also with destroyed monuments/memorials by protesters, such as the Richmond building referenced in the article under May 31 and I'm sure others, or if this is out of the scope of this article. Yeoutie (talk) 00:55, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
• Just an idea: Another way to organize the page might be a section for each U.S. state, with overviews of the removals in prose form. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 01:36, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

If you create a table please make it a Sortable table.
Keep in mind that there is a July 1 law change in Virginia repealing the pronibition on removing historical monuments. I expect the Charlottesville statues will be going, and probably others. The Virginia law change (on which there is no article) and the changes just in Virginia could be split off, since they will be the biggest number. The only other significant state at the moment is Alabama. deisenbe (talk) 10:07, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

I reorganized the page into 3 tables that I think cover all the items that may be removed, Memorials and Monuments, Buildings, and Symbols and Insignias. It is very likely I made mistakes doing all this shuffling around so please check my work and feel free to add details I may have missed. I am going to continue today trying to find images for monuments that didn't have one already on the page and generally finessing stuff. Please feel free to discuss if the tables need more or less columns, if things shouldn't be included, or any other issues I may have introduced.Found5dollar (talk) 17:27, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

After the removal of the statue in Bristol and talks about removal of statues in other places, like Belgium, I'd like to propose to split the main table and put them into two subcategories (USA and Worldwide). This would make the information more accurate, as it now displays "United Kingdom" as a state. 008'/,treme (talk) 17:52, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, I didn't really knwo what to do with that one. I'd be ok with splitting that table into USA and elsewhere in the world, but I don't want to do that until/if there are more monuments outside of the US that come down. I dont think a section with one entry is very helpful.Found5dollar (talk) 18:06, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Thank you very much for creating the table. I find myself wondering how long the monuments have been up. Would a column for date of construction be a good idea? gobonobo ^{+ c} 04:54, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Found5dollar, I've created separate tables for US and international. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 13:54, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Rizzo Mural.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 18:37, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Thinking about creating a page of a list of monuments, statues, memorials etc of people involved in the slave trade

Hi @Deisenbe:, @Another Believer: etc, I've been thinking today about creating a page for 'list of monuments, statues, memorials etc of people involved in the slave trade' or similar. I'm aware that this list would have a lot of overlap with this page but most probably be considerably larger. Do you have any thoughts on ways to approach it, where to get information from etc? I had a few rough ideas, but they all have benefits and drawbacks and I don't know what would work best. Thanks, John Cummings (talk) 18:19, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, I have no idea. deisenbe (talk) 21:44, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Two suggestions. First, I would specifically limit the list to the transatlantic slave trade, expansively defined. The history of slavery goes back to before recorded history; if you do not narrow, every statue of ancient conquerors would belong on the list. Second, I would avoid relisting Confederate war memorials on the grounds of redundancy. We already have an article on these so relisting them here would be redundant. Perhaps you could create a section summarizing confederate war memorials then provide a main article link to the main list. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 02:50, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Such an article has already been created recently by another editor at List of public statues of individuals linked to the Atlantic slave trade. --Lord Belbury (talk) 17:12, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

I created the above list, and would of course welcome any additions, especially where we have articles on non-English Wikis. A section for abolitionists might also be apposite. No Swan So Fine (talk) 20:31, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Glasgow Street Names

Streets named after Tobacco Lords in Scotland have been informally renamed by campaigners covertly putting up signs with the of Civil Rights icons and black people killed by police. There's also a petition story here. Is there a place for this kind of thing here? It's not exactly vandalism, but it's not a formally recognized removal either. Some of the statue removal aren't formally recognized. However it fits, I definitely think it would add value to the list. Kire1975 (talk) 07:03, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

If they ever get around to doing it officially, we can revisit the issue. Marking this thread done. Normal Op (talk) 21:21, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Confederate names off military installations.

A GOP-led Senate panel on Thursday approved a plan to take Confederate names off military installations. https://news.yahoo.com/historical-figures-under-attack-george-203434976.html deisenbe (talk) 20:53, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

This is going to be a long drawn-out process, and it's only in the early stages. Here are two update articles: White House officials reopen discussion of renaming military bases named after Confederate generals (June 17, 2020), How the Army might rename Confederate installations (June 20, 2020). We can revist the issue whenever a base is changed. Normal Op (talk) 21:37, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Rename Deady Hall, University of Oregon

University of Oregon President Schill recommended earlier this week that the Board of Trustees rename Deady Hall.

https://www.dailyemerald.com/news/breaking-protesters-tear-down-pioneer-statues-after-deady-hall-protest/article_3526f140-adec-11ea-8f06-2bb6cab42c73.html

The building was named after a Matthew Deady, President of the Oregon Constitutional Convention. Deady, however, holds a record of advocating discrimination against people of color and favored slavery.

https://www.koin.com/news/protests/university-of-oregon-responds-to-destruction-of-campus-statues/

deisenbe (talk) 20:24, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

The two toppled (then removed) University of Oregon statues are already on the page. This topic has not become an official decision. Archiving from this Talk page. Normal Op (talk) 21:45, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

University of South Carolina asks legislature to remove name of J. Marion Sims from a women's dorm

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/5-years-after-church-massacre-south-carolina-protects-confederate-monuments

deisenbe (talk) 19:31, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Formal vote by University of South Carolina Board of Trustees is this Friday [1]; looks like the result is a foregone conclusion. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 02:20, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Exemptions to the SC Heritage Act require a vote by 2/3 of the SC legislature.[2] This one and the renaming of Tillman Hall (already in the article) won't be locked in until then. gobonobo ^{+ c} 13:13, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

 Done I added this to the "Removals under consideration" section. Normal Op (talk) 22:10, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Statue of Calhoun in Charleston SC to be removed

Charleston officials say they will defy South Carolina law and remove statue of slavery advocate John C. Calhoun on the fifth anniversary of the massacre of black church members by a white supremacist

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8433449/Charleston-officials-say-defy-South-Carolina-law-remove-statue-John-C-Calhoun.html

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/state/south-carolina/article243610497.html

deisenbe (talk) 22:35, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Based on the article, there hasn't actually been an official decision yet, but it sounds like the outcome of the upcoming vote is a foregone conclusion. I'd personally recommend holding off until something more solid is in place legislation-wise. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 01:00, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Correct. This is just a "watch list" item. Sending to deisenbe's watch list. Normal Op (talk) 22:16, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Moved to

User:Deisenbe/sandbox/Monument removals

Churchill

Has anyone seen a reference to plans to remove any Churchill statues, as opposed to covering them up? deisenbe (talk) 18:05, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Nope. A google search (four days after your question) only shows the one in London which was covered for protection from protesters, then uncovered for an official visit. They plan to leave it uncovered. No other articles found. Normal Op (talk) 22:19, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Time to include the 10 U.S. Army bases to be renamed

The Army says they will be renamed, end of story. That's as definite ss many other items already in table.

Here's a long discussion, dated May 23, of the people the bases are named for. Some even the Confederacy wouldn't want to honor: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/23/opinion/sunday/army-base-names-confederacy-racism.html

deisenbe (talk) 09:51, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

And when they get around to announcing that they will do it, then we might include it. Until then, it's just a "love to have it" item. "The Army" doesn't have a voice; only people do. Until there is an official publication BY THE ARMY, I wouldn't care who (in the Army) said what to a reporter. Besides, the citation you gave is an op-ed. Normal Op (talk) 22:28, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Statue of Avery Brundage (San Francisco)

Asian Art Museum to Remove Bust of Patron. That’s Just a Start.

The museum will also hold public programs to examine Avery Brundage’s legacy, as well as questions around restitution, and work on “decolonizing’’ the museum.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/15/arts/design/avery-brundage-bust-asian-art-museum.html?action=click&module=Well&pgtype=Homepage&section=Art%20%20Design

deisenbe (talk) 09:24, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

I added it under "Decisions made for removals". I really dislike adding these corporation removals and won't take the time to add it to any of the other tables, because there isn't really a section that it pertains to. (Brundage isn't Confederate, isn't a conquistador or colonial type, wasn't a slave trader, the art section is for non-sculptures). I predict the corporate-type entries will be stripped from this article soon, or reduced to one-liner bullet point lists. Normal Op (talk) 22:47, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Lititz, PA: statue of Sutter removed

https://lancasteronline.com/news/general-sutter-inn-in-lititz-removes-statue-of-john-sutter/article_a0f881a2-b16d-11ea-aa88-8b85f6cfe229.html

deisenbe (talk) 23:35, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

This is a minor corporate "me, too" removal. Out of the scope of List of monuments and memorials removed during the George Floyd protests. Normal Op (talk) 01:48, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

 Declined

Grave marker for Confederate troops toppled in Silver Spring [Maryland]

Resolved

https://wtop.com/montgomery-county/2020/06/grave-marker-for-confederate-troops-is-toppled-in-silver-spring/

deisenbe (talk) 00:00, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Monument has been added to the list. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 05:30, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Albuquerque, NM: statue of conquistador Diego de Vargas (don't prefix "don")

https://www.santafenewmexican.com/news/local_news/devargas-statue-removed-from-cathedral-park/article_f10f20f0-b169-11ea-8203-2722abef3f0d.html

deisenbe (talk) 23:30, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

I've added this to the list. Still needs an article. gobonobo ^{+ c} 14:03, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Portland, Oregon: statue of Clark (of Lewis and Clark) plus one of slave

https://www.koin.com/news/protests/u-portland-removes-statue-of-explorer-william-clark/

deisenbe (talk) 23:32, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Deisenbe, Right here in my city. This would be the WP article: Captain William Clark Monument ---Another Believer _(Talk) 23:35, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

 Done I added it to the tables. Normal Op (talk) 02:02, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

NCAA bans events in Mississippi because of flag

NCAA bans all championship events in Mississippi over state flag with Confederate emblem Charlotte Observer Patrick Magee ,Charlotte Observer•June 19, 2020

https://news.yahoo.com/ncaa-bans-championship-events-mississippi-155128187.html

https://sports.yahoo.com/ncaa-no-championships-states-confederate-symbol-153123116--ncaaw.html

https://news.yahoo.com/ncaa-bans-championships-states-where-044323933.html

deisenbe (talk) 12:58, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

 Off-topic Interesting topic, but not appropriate for this list-article. Normal Op (talk) 02:07, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Companies, Bank of England, Church of England

Meanwhile, U.S. civil rights leader Jesse Jackson asked Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte to stop the use of the black-faced pre-Christmas character ‘Black Pete’, Reuters reported.

As the Black Lives Matter movement gained traction, a growing list of companies is reviewing brands deemed racist. Colgate-Palmolive Co. said it will overhaul its Darlie toothpaste brand in China, joining others under scrutiny like Aunt Jemima and Uncle Ben’s. The Bank of England said it will remove portraits of former governors tied to the slave trade, and the Church of England apologized for clergy who profited from it. In New York City, Council leaders called for the removal of a Thomas Jefferson statue from City Hall.

Texas Republican Senator John Cornyn will introduce a bill to make Juneteenth a federal holiday. Morgan Stanley, Target and Uber are among dozens of firms recognizing the day.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/aunt-jemima-brand-changing-juneteenth-123418255.html

deisenbe (talk) 13:03, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

 Off-topic More google search results that don't create a "to do" item for this list-article. Normal Op (talk) 02:09, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Moving suggestion

I suggest moving this page to {List of monuments and memorials removed, toppled, or vandalized during the George Floyd protests}. 80.210.203.233 (talk) 20:59, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

 Disagree I vote we don't change this page name. It has about 300 other pages linked to it. Normal Op (talk) 21:17, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

I would tend to agree with Normal Op. Most (all?) toppled monuments were removed and if we expand this to include vandalized monuments it would become far too long. gobonobo ^{+ c} 22:04, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Disagree - OP didn't give any reasons, much less good ones. Kire1975 (talk) 22:06, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

disagree. as gobonobo noted, adding "toppled" would not change much, and adding "vandalized" would change too much. dying (talk) 23:31, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Marking this topic...

N Not done and not likely to be done

Normal Op (talk) 02:15, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

"Other" / "Others"

Can we come up with better subsection headers than "Other" and "Others"? Surely these have something in common we can use? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 19:58, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Mass archival

I just performed a scan of the page, and it added an archived section to every single citation. If anyone objects to this, please feel free to revert. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 06:29, 22 June 2020 (UTC) Edit: I undid the edit since it will be much easier to add it back in than remove the links. Does anyone have any objections to adding these archival links back in? Since its completely automated, there's no need to do this by hand. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 06:31, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

It's okay for the archival links to be there. Note that the parameter url-status=live or url-status=dead will change the language of how the citation appears to the reader. See this link for an example of how the citation changes if you change the archive-url answer. In other words, your IABot edit was fine. Normal Op (talk) 07:01, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 June 2020

Request to add - Confederate Memorial Obelisk

St. Augustine, Florida

Announced June 22, 2020

Removal and relocation - voted 3-2 by St. Augustine City Commission on June 22, 2020

https://www.staugustine.com/news/20200622/st-augustine-commissioners-vote-3-2-to-remove-confederate-memorial 98.231.107.24 (talk) 02:11, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

 Done - added to the Decisions made for removals section. GoingBatty (talk) 02:27, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

School mascots

A few schools have already changed their mascots. Many more have active petitions to change theirs. UNLV's Hey Reb! seems to be under consideration. So far this seems to be mostly Confederate mascots, but could expand to mascots of indigenous peoples. I'm not sure whether these would be listed under symbols or names.

• Richland High School (Texas) Rebels [3]
• Quartz Hill High School Rebels [4]
• A. B. Miller High School Rebels
• Teton High School Redskins --> Timberwolves [5]
• Brighton Central School District Barons [6]

gobonobo ^{+ c} 14:53, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

I think these are closer to symbols and insignia since they involve logos and possibly even physical mascot costumes rather than the formal name of the institutions. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 17:43, 21 June 2020 (UTC) In retrospect, I disagree with my previous comment. A plaque, a statue, or a flag are things that are physically removed in a way that impacts the way of the land. A mascot on the other hand does not: its basically a trademark (similar to Uncle Ben's or Aunt Jerimiah); even if a costume is changed, nothing is different geographically. As such, list this in the names and nomenclature section. (If statues of mascots are removed, then this deserves a separate listing in the monument section). Spirit of Eagle (talk) 18:28, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

I just don't see "school mascots" as becoming part of this page. Normal Op (talk) 02:44, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

What to do with renamings

There are a lot of proposals for renaming. There is a serious proposal to rename Columbus, Ohio. Another for Brigham Young University. Baton Rouge voted yesterday to take Lee's name off a school. There are street renamings. Renamings are slower to execute because there are costs involved, like for new street signs, which have to be manufactured and installed. You can't just pull something down. There should be a section for them somewhere, IMHO. deisenbe (talk) 11:51, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

I think we'll be documenting renamings over at List of name changes due to the George Floyd protests. gobonobo ^{+ c} 12:59, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Corporate (non public) decisions to rename their products

Okay, this is getting ridiculous. We now have:

• Gone with the Wind
• Cream of Wheat
• Aunt Jemima
• Eskimo Pie
• Calhoun Square Shopping Center
• Uncle Ben's
• Mrs. Butterworth
• Sambo's

This page was about Confederate monuments and memorials (at the start). It has expanded to other civil rights, genocide, slave trade PUBLIC SPACE monuments. Universities and schools I can understand.

But Eskimo Pies? Cream of Wheat? I expect we'll have an onslaught of corporations renaming their products throughout 2020. They do NOT belong on this page. I can certainly see another page dedicated to the 2020 renaming spree in the name of fair rights for all races. I recommend removing corporate brands from THIS list-article.

Please discuss.

(Pinging @Kire1975: Please stop!)

— Normal Op (talk) 05:49, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

I have no objection to splitting off product name's into a separate article. However, I think line-drawing may be an issue. While products like Uncle Ben's would clearly belong on the split list, restaurant names are much less clear. Sambo's and the Shopping Center are very much real location, and these changes will have an observable geographic impact (at least on maps) no different than the changes in university names. I really don't see a principled reason for why schools should be treated differently from other institutions. I am also a bit worried that two articles will divide our attention. We are barely treading water as is and I'd rather not have to split our focus between multiple articles, at least while the protests are ongoing. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 06:05, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

"Split our attentions", "barely treading water", LOL, you said it! 93 items on this Talk page! I've spent the last 12 hours trying to work on each item and take them off our to-do-list. As for schools, when I was editing a Virginia list, most of the schools were public schools named after Confed men. Being public, I see those as fitting here. Universities can sometimes be private, but we sort of consider them as "institutions for the public". Corporate product branding? No way does that fall in the same category. Hell, we could make a section for a PARAGRAPH or simple list on corporate brands, even if THAT stays on this page. But putting them in our tables... I just don't see it being of benefit. Normal Op (talk) 06:15, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

I'll endorse taking product names out of the tables and just using plaint text to describe them. We could start this text list here on the main article then split it off it gets big enough. However, I still think physical locations with changed names should remain on the table. In addition to my earlier geographic argument, it may also be difficult to truly distinguish the public from the private. You've already noted the public impact of private colleges. Additionally, a lot of strip malls, downtown areas and other supposed places of private enterprise have a ton of government development so the names of these places are rarely entirely private. Basically, I think we need clear criteria on what gets included/excluded to avoid headaches, and that this will be particularly difficult for physical locations. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 06:29, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

i'm not sure if level of impact (geographic or otherwise) should determine whether an entry should be on this article or a separate article, since that could easily be a subjective determination. also, if the article was split, i feel that the removal of the bust of ulysses s. grant from golden gate park should stay on this article, while the renaming of aunt jemima should be moved to the new article, even though i'm pretty sure the latter will have a much larger impact than the former. dying (talk) 06:54, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

although i can understand why the initial entries were included on this page, since it was probably the most relevant page of the george floyd articles to list them on, and there weren't enough entries at the time to warrant a new article, i can also see why the growing number of entries may result in the page covering more types of incidents than was initially intended.

if the page ends up being split, may i suggest splitting the page based on whether something was physically removed or not, instead of whether a corporation was involved? that way, the split would be much more clear-cut. in fact, the article already has all the entries based on renamed items in a separate section. also, this way, this article can keep its title without resorting to a qualifier that distinguishes it from the new article, which might be entitled "List of brands and buildings renamed during the George Floyd protests", although i admittedly hesitate to use the phrase "brands and buildings" since this description may be unnecessarily restrictive, especially since rhode island may end up changing its name.

i also agree with spirit of eagle that there doesn't seem to be a reason why schools should be treated differently from other institutions. in addition, creating a distinction between private and public universities seems unnecessary. dying (talk) 06:39, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Name changes are a different topic from removed monuments and should have been in a separate list from the beginning. I'd suggest creating a new page out of the "Names and nomenclature" section, titled List of name changes following the George Floyd protests. Ham II (talk) 06:50, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Hmm... I was putting school name changes into Removal of Confederate monuments and memorials#Virginia when I was working on the List of Confederate monuments and memorials in Virginia. I can imagine removals of busts/statues from Universities staying on this page (they are 'monuments'), but renaming schools or buildings on university campuses should go elsewhere. Maybe into the Removals article I just mentioned. Not everything has to be in a "by reason of George Floyd protest" article. Normal Op (talk) 06:58, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

I think it would be more pragmatic to fork the name changes section to a new page and keep the current formatting intact, especially as there are new examples to add every day. Not all the examples in the U.S. subsection would fit in Removal of Confederate monuments and memorials (e.g. Sambo's), and none of the ones in the "Outside the United States" subsection would. Ham II (talk) 08:56, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

agreed. also, if i wanted to learn of recent building renamings due to the protests, i probably would not have thought to look under Removal of Confederate monuments and memorials. dying (talk) 09:07, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Per Ham II, I support splitting off 'Names and nomenclature' to its own list and focusing this list broadly on physical removals, retaining 'Monuments and memorials' and 'Buildings'. I feel like the 'Symbols and insignias' subsection could remain here for now, though it could arguably be split as well. gobonobo ^{+ c} 11:45, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Something that's just occurred to me... things like the state of Rhode Island and Eskimo Pie (currently in the "Names and nomenclature" section) shouldn't be items in a list about monuments, hence my suggestion to split that section off. However, the remaining topics of "Monuments and memorials", "symbols and insignias" and "Buildings" don't all fit within "Monuments and memorials" either. What if this list's title reflected its broader scope by changing to List of symbolism removed during the George Floyd protests? Names would arguably still come under "symbolism" so could be kept on this page. Ham II (talk) 12:13, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

i think "List of symbolism removed during the George Floyd protests" sounds a bit too technical and vague at the same time, even though it would sufficiently expand the scope of the list to include everything currently on the page. however, if that's the goal, it might be better to name the article "List of things removed during the George Floyd protests", as there are few things that could not be argued as being "symbolism" on some level, so restricting the list to things considered symbolism seems unnecessary. also, symbols and insignias can be considered memorials, as memorials do not have to be physical objects, so i'm not sure if the page actually needs to be renamed.

i had also previously suggested "List of brands and buildings renamed during the George Floyd protests", in order to closely parallel the title of this article, but had the same misgiving as you did regarding rhode island. i thought about it some more, and came up with "List of products and places renamed during the George Floyd protests", which seems to cover everything either renamed or up for renaming that is currently listed in the article. dying (talk) 13:44, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

There's also a bunch of school mascots that have been changed. gobonobo ^{+ c} 13:56, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

oh, good point. i admittedly was looking only at the examples under the "Names and nomenclature" section. school mascots would fit under "brands" but only arguably under "products". how about "List of brands and places renamed during the George Floyd protests", and do away with the alliteration for now? dying (talk) 14:16, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

My sense is that we'll eventually want to split this article out of size considerations anyway. I'm inclined to go with something like List of names and symbols changed following the George Floyd protests. gobonobo ^{+ c} 15:07, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

oh, even better. i'm admittedly not sure why i kept trying to use the word "renamed" in the title, since my original idea was to split based on whether or not the change was mainly due to the physical removal of something, and not whether it involved a renaming. also, should we use "during" or "following"? this article currently uses "during". dying (talk) 15:38, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Notes

Vote to split page now?

I'm seeing a consensus that we need to split this page.

I vote we make a new list-article for brands and renaming and leave this page for the actual physical in-real-life monuments that were the target of George Floyd protests. I vote for the new list-article name to be "List of brands changed due to George Floyd protesting" and it should include all corporate brand names (Cream of Wheat, Eskimo Pie), organization names (Lady A, Captain Cook Hotel), school names (Calhoun Honors College), building name changes (Leonidas K. Polk Hall), and even geographic name changes (King Leopold Ranges).

It is clear that this article has become too big and the best/easiest "peel off" would be the renaming of brand names and renaming of buildings or institutions. This movement (year 2020, post-George Floyd incident) will certainly spawn a "suite" of articles in Wikipedia. It would be no different than the "suite" of articles already about lists of Confederate items and lists of their removals. Examples:

• List of Confederate monuments and memorials where there are "peel out" articles for only 6 of the states (Alabama, Georgia, Mississippi, North Carolina, South Carolina, Virginia) with the remaining 44 states being included within the article.
• There are also peel outs for main articles for List of Confederate Artworks in the United States Capitol and List of memorials and monuments at Arlington National Cemetery
• Each section/state has its own removal hatnote, example "See also: Removal of Confederate monuments and memorials § Tennessee" from the main list Removal of Confederate monuments and memorials

I encourage all of you editors to consider editing Removal of Confederate monuments and memorials while removing entries from List of Confederate monuments and memorials. These are already well-established pages (although they need updating in the wake of all these changes in real life). No need to re-invent what is already there in Wikipedia.

This list CANNOT become a catch-all for everything that has happened in 2020 post-GF.

Please add your BRIEF vote below. (Yes, no, suggest diff name, or whatever.) (Pings: Spirit of Eagle, Dying, Ham II, Gobonobo, Another Believer) (Add more pings: Deisenbe, AlanM1)

— Normal Op (talk) 18:16, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

• Support splitting off "Names and nomenclature" section. I largely agree with what Normal Op has written and think that physical removal is a good, clean dividing line between article topics. I have no opinion yet on what the best title for this new article would be.Spirit of Eagle (talk) 18:25, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
• split to "List of names and symbols changed during the George Floyd protests". this would cover additional types of changes that may happen in the future, such as the possible adoption of the stennis flag by mississippi or the renaming of rhode island, both of which would be questionably categorized as brand changes. also, this name would follow the "during the George Floyd protests" ending of this article. dying (talk) 18:35, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
  • I like "names and symbols". I prefer "due to", rather than "during". (List of names and symbols changed due to George Floyd protests) Normal Op (talk) 19:12, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
    • i agree; i prefer "due to" over "during". should the "the" be dropped? that is, should the name be "List of names and symbols changed due to George Floyd protests" or "List of names and symbols changed due to the George Floyd protests"? also, if we use "due to", i think we should also consider moving this article to conform to the change, or else the difference may cause unnecessary confusion. dying (talk) 19:35, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
      • Yes, drop the "the". No, let's NOT change this page name. Until this page settles down, it is too broadly used everywhere. Every template, every statue stub, everywhere... the name is duplicated a lot. Super big job to change it. Please don't! It doesn't need to "match" anything else. Normal Op (talk) 21:25, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

i apologize if i made it appear that i wanted to move this article immediately. i had no intention of doing so, and merely wanted to point out the discrepancy, in case that was something that might need to be addressed later.

admittedly, i prefer keeping the "the", and since all the suggestions offered by everyone else so far also appear to keep the "the", i am currently assuming that that's the more favored choice.

i think Ham II makes a good point regarding consistency, so List of name changes due to the George Floyd protests sounds good. however, i also think that mascots and mottos would be more suitably listed on the new page, so i think List of names and symbols changed due to the George Floyd protests works better if precision should be prioritized over consistency. however, either name is fine with me. dying (talk) 16:51, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

• Support split and creation of a list inclusive of all changed names and branding, including corporate and school mascots as well as mottos. I'm in favor of any title that reflects that scope. List of name changes due to the George Floyd protests or the like. gobonobo ^{+ c} 19:52, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
• Support split of "Names and nomeclature" section to a page titled List of name changes due to the George Floyd protests. This is more or less WP:CONSISTENT with the other lists of name changes I can find: List of name changes in Yangon and Name changes due to the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant. The "Symbols and insignia" section can probably be the basis for another page. Ham II (talk) 08:42, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

The split is done

it looks like everyone is on board with the split, with a majority happy with the name List of name changes due to the George Floyd protests, so i'll execute the split with the suggested name. if an alternate name is preferred later, i have no problem with the page being moved. (technically, that might even make the page eligible as an entry of itself.) dying (talk) 05:33, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

 Thank you very much! Thank you, Dying for executing the split. Normal Op (talk) 15:05, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks

I just want to thank all the editors who have worked on this list. There are still many monuments and memorials to add to the table, but we've been quite organized about noting which subjects have standalone articles, archiving discussions appropriately, and discussing potential improvements. What a surprising (but welcome, IMHO) turn of events resulting from the BLM movement. Let's keep it up! ---Another Believer _(Talk) 16:17, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

 I concur! Normal Op (talk) 08:05, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Two Confederate statues removed in Wilmington, NC

Resolved

https://www.starnewsonline.com/news/20200625/rsquowe-canrsquot-go-backwardrsquo-wilmington-removes-confederate-monuments-overnight?fbclid=IwAR0zLgWO9f7Fr1mWgZB3JrTumeUwFapgTy2JUAOiKvV1DvZ0ZAFaQ23wK2w

The George Davis Monument and the Confederate Memorial (Wilmington, North Carolina) have both been partially removed. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 04:09, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks to whoever updated the table. This section can be archived. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 20:47, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Where to place Jamaica Royal Insignia

Resolved

[7] The Jamaican Governor-general recently announced he will not wear a piece of royal insignia depicting a white Archangel Michael standing over a black Satan; the governor-general specifically cited the mass movement against degrading images as the reason behind the decision. I'm posting this here since I'm really not sure where it belongs: its an insignia (which is covered here over the name change page), yet its not of the type whose removal has geographic consequences. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 02:09, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

Maybe you need a new section (or page?) for people of note, people of power (not plain old Hollywood celebrity types) who have declared personally to make a stand against racism (like in this case) specifically due to the "growing global rejection of the use of objects that normalize the continued degradation of people of color". (Gosh, look at the image of that thing! ) Normal Op (talk) 03:53, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

Yikes, I can see why the insignia is no longer being displayed! Regarding placement, the Mississippi House and Senate just voted to change their flag (which features the so-called Confederate flag) and the governor already said he'd sign the bill. I think we do need a new section, although the question is in which article it belongs. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 03:40, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

I'm bringing this over to the List of changes made due to the George Floyd protest as its the more appropriate article. This section can be archived. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 04:02, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Need a section or separate list of predecessors

There should be a section on predecessors, coming out of the same motives, after Charleston shooting of 2015. This would include:

• New Orleans monuments
• Names of New Orleans schools
• Statues of Roger Taney
• Baltimore statues
• Florida replacing Edmund Kirby Smith with Mary McLeod Bethune (first statue of a black woman in the Capitol, I think)
• Other replacements of Capitol statues, incl. Arkansas, Alabama, Ohio, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Statuary_Hall_Collection#Replacement_of_statues
• Silent Sam
• Durham Confederate monument

Even though it's in Belgium, I'll mention here the conversion of the Museum of the Congo (showcasing King Leopold II) to the Royal Museum for Central Africa.

Probably others. These are covered in Removal of Confederate monuments and memorials, but the arrangement is completely different and there's a lot of older and unrelated stuff. deisenbe (talk) 16:28, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

 Disagree I say no, because this page is about things sparked from the May 2020 George Floyd incident. As you've pointed out, there are other pages dedicated to the removal of Confederate monuments that span more time. If you think a BRIEF mention should be added to the lede of this article, go ahead. But there is already a sort-of mention ("Some of these monuments have been the subject of lengthy, years-long efforts to remove them, sometimes involving legislation and/or court proceedings."). Normal Op (talk) 18:58, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Announcement: Two new sections have been added to List page: 'Decisions made' and 'Under consideration'

I have added two new sections to the main page: Decisions made for removals and Removals under consideration .

Decisions made for removals: means all official decisions have been made; monument just hasn't yet been removed. Removals under consideration: means some official decisions have been made, but there remain some official hurdles to clear before final decision is possible (like a vote, or waiting for legislation).

Please note that these sections are intended to be a simple bullet-point list to hold some of the items that have come up. If a monument gets removed, then take it off the simple list and move it into a table in the body of the page.

This Talk page has gotten completely out of hand! There were around 96 entries earlier today. I have gotten it trimmed to around 58. The section I did NOT create, and will not, would be for petitions asking jurisdictions to remove a monument when no action is or has been taken yet by the jurisdiction.

Deisenbe, I'm directing this to you. Please do NOT add any more petition notices to this Talk page. We can't do anything with them and they are cluttering up the page. Keep them on your own personal "to do list" or forget about them until some real action has been done. I have been archiving those sections without any action. Since the two new sections are simple bullet lists (no fancy formatted tables), please add your new entries directly to the article page (not Talk page) when a situation fits those categories.

I have watched the participation on this article go down as the volume of entries on the Talk page has gone up. We must get it trimmed to a reasonable size and quit using it for a google search results page.

— Normal Op (talk) 07:32, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

i am sorry, but i am confused as to when the "decisions made" section should be used. is there a difference between whether an entry should be inserted into the tables above or when it should be added to the "decisions made" section? i see amnh's statue of theodore roosevelt is in both.

also, is there a reason why you added the bust of avery brundage to the "decisions made" section? the bust was already removed, so i had previously thought it would have been inserted into the tables. dying (talk) 00:02, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

My comment re Brundage is filed in the archives. You can always check the archives if you want to find an old 'discussion'. (Look at top of this page for links to the archives, and a search tool.) Since we had almost 100 items on this page, I've tried to handle as many as I could as quickly as I could... then archived them right away. Normal Op (talk) 01:19, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

For "Decisions made for removals", I intended this section to be for those items where all decisions have been made for a "yes, we're removing it". The only hold up might be getting the finances in order, finding a contractor, picking a schedule, and actually doing it.

For "Removals under consideration", I intended this section to be for those items where someone in authority has already decided "It's going!" but they still have some sort of authoritative holdup such as waiting for legislation to pass (like Alabama where they have to wait until July 1st before they can go to the next steps) or getting permission from some other entity. Normal Op (talk) 01:32, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Re Roosevelt: I didn't notice that it was already on the list (put there by user Bmclaughlin9 within the last 24 hours) and no one removed it from the Talk page (which had turned into the longest to-do-list in the world). So... I picked it off the Talk page and put him on the List page... again. I'll delete the one I added. Normal Op (talk) 01:41, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Do you have any objection to migrating listings to the tables as appropriate (i.e. removal has occurred or removal has been approved and their are no permanent legal barriers to the removal)? You did a really good job moving this stuff to article space, but I think that some this stuff should be integrated into the tables once we have a solid grip on the listings. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 02:46, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Spirit of Eagle, I have no objections. It's a natural progression from one category to another. I wanted to get all those projects off the Talk page (there were 95 of them!). Some weren't ready for a table. They might be now. Go ahead. The two new categories weren't intended to be permanent locations for their entries. Normal Op (talk) 03:20, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

i actually did see your comment in the archives, but was still left confused. you stated that it's a "corporation removal", but a decent number of other monuments associated with corporations are in the tables, like the bust of robert e. lee in fort myers or the statue of cecil rhodes in oxford. you also stated that "there isn't really a section that [brundage] pertains to", but the "others" section seems to cover it pretty well.

in addition, you mentioned that you "won't take the time to add it to any of the other tables", so is it merely a question of time? does that mean all entries regarding removals (either already executed or already approved by all relevant authorities) can be entered into the tables, but can also be listed under the "decisions made" section if an editor does not have the time to add it to the tables?

i just saw spirit of eagle's comment before posting mine, so now i'm assuming that it's merely a question of time. can you confirm? i don't want to place any new entries under the wrong section. dying (talk) 02:55, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

dying: Please read my answer to GoingBatty under Decisions made for removals section. I answer some of your questions there. But I'll state my opinion again for the record: I do NOT like to see in this article corporate brands, renaming decisions, school mascots designations and other NON-TANGIBLE items. Such things were not changed "because of the George Floyd protests". They are "me, too" and "I support the cause" decisions. Whether or not there are such entries on the page already is irrelevant to me as to whether I decided to add Brundage (or not) during my two day marathon of handling 90-plus items on the Talk page. If you want to drag Brundage back in, I really don't care one way or the other. But *I* was not going to enter him. Now that I've gotten the Talk page down to 10 items (down from 95 PLUS all those entered in the last 48 hours), I'm taking a break and handing the reins back to all you others, and you guys can go to town on the article. The backlog was bugging the s**t out of me. Normal Op (talk) 03:47, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

thanks for clearing the backlog. i agree with you on splitting the article based on whether something was "non-tangible"; that's why i first suggested "splitting the page based on whether something was physically removed or not", and why i was so confused about the placement of brundage, since that was clearly a tangible bust. perhaps, to eliminate further confusion, i will execute the split now, since all voting parties currently desire the split. dying (talk) 05:33, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

What these sections are NOT for

 Note: These are not simply my opinions, but are decisions based on longstanding Wikipedia policies.

These sections are NOT for listing new "citizen petitions". These two new sections are for noting when an OFFICIAL or AUTHORITY who has jurisdiction over a monument or the location on which it sits has made a decision to do something about it. Content about citizen petitions does not belong in this article under any section. There are a lot of things people WANT in this world (WP:ADVOCACY), and speaking about it doesn't make it so. Wikipedia is not a crystal ball and these wishful-thinking petitions may never go any further than collecting names and being sent to an official/authority. This page is titled "List of monuments and memorials removed during the George Floyd protests", not "Ideas spawned because of George Floyd protests". There are plenty of monuments that ARE coming down to keep us busy on this page. We couldn't even begin to cover the hundreds of other monuments that people would like taken down, and Wikipedia guidelines clearly doesn't want us to try (see WP:NOTCRYSTALBALL). We're already skirting Wikipedia's WP:RECENTISM policy, and some are pushing WP:FRINGE, WP:UNDUE and WP:NOTNEWSPAPER. Let's keep it clean. We've got a great page going here. Keep up the good work.

— Normal Op (talk) 15:40, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

New page in my sandbox for items I've been asked not to post here

Anyone interested can find it at User:Deisenbe/sandbox/Monument removals. deisenbe (talk) 08:51, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

 Thank you for establishing a semi-public place for your "watch list". The sections on this Talk page that are simply "watch" or "in petition stage" (those that you started), I have been putting them onto your sandbox/Monument removals page and archiving the copy that is here. Normal Op (talk) 17:02, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Decisions made for removals section?

Although there is a "Decisions made for removals" section, the "United States" sections include monuments where removal has been announced but not removed yet. When should monuments be listed in the "Decisions made for removals" section, and when should they be moved the appropriate "United States" section? Thanks! (I'm not watching this page – please use {{ping|GoingBatty}} on reply) GoingBatty (talk) 03:02, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

I created the two news sections for a place to "plop" in some entries. (There were 95 items to attend to on this Talk page, and I wanted to quickly get through as many as possible.) You're welcome to move them into a table if you think they belong there. Since I was dealing with so many chronological categories (levels such as (1) public petition started, (2) official says get it gone but needs more permission, (3) officials say it can go, and (4) it's been moved or toppled already) I created those two new categories to toss in items 2 & 3. Items 4 I put into tables. Items 1 I either tossed back to deisenbe or just archived as "fuhgetaboutit". The categories are not set in stone. Entries in the two categories are expected to be moved along. For example, a statue at level 2 will be pushed into level 3, and the level 3's will eventually get done (statue is removed). So go ahead and move stuff around. If you want to make entries in the tables and take them out of the "Decisions made" category, go for it. Normal Op (talk) 03:28, 23 June 2020 (UTC) @GoingBatty:

The "Forward" statue

Doesn't it belong under Columbus? Created for Columbian Exposition. deisenbe (talk) 08:43, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

I take this suggestion back aftef reading https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/politics/2020/06/24/madison-protests-what-know-forward-statue-toppled/3249239001/ deisenbe (talk) 08:22, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

I put Calhoun under Confederate

Maybe someone has a problem with it. He of course died long before the Confederacy, but he was a Confederate hero, on the Confederacy's 1¢ stamp, and was the most important single individual behind the Confederacy's ideology. Slavery defender.

I don't feel strongly about it, but I thought he belongs there rather than with Frank Rizzo and Philip Schuyler. deisenbe (talk) 09:34, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Eh, I think it should go back to the 'other' section. While Calhoun was an avid defender of slavery and secessionism, he was never a part of the Confederacy and died over a decade before the Civil War. This would be a bit comparable to listing statues of John Locke on a list of statues of the Founding Fathers. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 21:52, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Calhoun was seen by Confederates, and is seen by historians, as the intellectual father of the Confederacy. Without him, there would probably not have been a Confederacy. He was their greatest hero. (In 1861, Lee, Jackson, and Davis were future heroes.) Locke never crossed the Atlantic. deisenbe (talk) 07:48, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

There is an inconsistency about Calhoun across the wiki pages (on the topic of Confed monuments) that we should fix to be consistent. Here's what I found:

• List of Confederate monuments and memorials: There is one entry on the page (Calhoun Hall) although there is an explicit excluding of Calhoun in the lede ("Nor does it include figures connected with the origins of the Civil War or white supremacy, but not with the Confederacy, including ... numerous memorials to Southern politician John C. Calhoun (commemorated on the Confederacy's 1¢ stamp), although monuments to Calhoun "have been the most consistent targets" of vandals.").

• SPLC's 2016 PDF report lists two Calhouns: Calhoun Veterans Monument in Calhoun, Georgia, and Calhoun Avenue in Alexandria, Virginia), but...
  • SPLC's online database doesn't have these two listed, not even in their "removed" category
  • List of Confederate monuments and memorials in Virginia doesn't have any Calhouns.
  • List of Confederate monuments and memorials in Georgia has one accidental mention (a Confed monument in Calhoun, Georgia) and no monument with name Calhoun.

• Removal of Confederate monuments and memorials has two mentions: (1) under "Academic commentary" ("However, Civil War historian David Blight asked: "Why, in the year [2016], should communal spaces in the South continue to be sullied by tributes to those who defended slavery? How can Americans ignore the pain that black citizens, especially, must feel when they walk by the [John C.] Calhoun monument, or any similar statues, on their way to work, school or Bible study?"), and (2) under "Organizations encouraging monument removal", John C. Calhoun Monument, Charleston, South Carolina.

• SPLC's online database (as current as they can maintain it) mentions monuments in two COUNTIES called Calhoun (Alabama and South Carolina) but doesn't add those county names as monuments that needs name changing (although there are 23 cities on their list as "memorials", but no counties).

It looks to me like Calhoun is considered by Lost Cause people as a Confederate icon, but strict historians say he wasn't a Confederate. Perhaps the Lost Cause has adopted him as an icon because their "revised history narrative" (States' rights) is what Calhoun was expounding, and their repetition of his name over the years has placed Calhoun into our thoughts as a Confederate icon.

I don't know if this is helpful or not in determining where to place Calhoun in this list-article.

— Normal Op (talk) 16:17, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Further splitting?

This list now has items which aren't monuments or memorials, e.g. most of the "Symbols and insignias" section, while the List of name changes due to the George Floyd protests has items which aren't name changes, such as a proposal to change the flag of Mississippi and casting changes in two television series.

I think the two lists should keep the scope suggested by their current titles – "monuments and memorials" (or, alternatively, public art) and "name changes" – and become sub-lists of a new List of changes made due to the George Floyd protests which would cover everything else: all imagery that isn't public art, e.g. flags, mascots and brands (if the imagery but not the name is changing; if a brand is renamed it should be in the "name changes" list), as well as mottoes and casting changes. Of course, for it to be a proper list of changes made due to the protests, List of police reforms related to the George Floyd protests, and any other lists about more significant social changes, would also have to be sub-lists of it. What do people think? Ham II (talk) 12:43, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

My suggestion is purging all the "petitions" to do this and that. They're interesting, but there are lots of bigger fish to fry. For me, when they merit inclusion is once there has been a decision for removal by some authority. Beyond that, I'm staying out of discussions of the article structure, or splitting, etc. Do what you think is best. deisenbe (talk) 14:12, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

This is in line with discussions at Talk:List of name changes due to the George Floyd protests. We've identified three actual decisions, not petitions or "under consideration", that are odd fits for the two lists we have: Removing photographs from Army promotion boards to avoid bias; Dungeons and Dragons moving away from racial stereotypes; and removing racist cards from Magic the Gathering. We could shoehorn these into List of name changes due to the George Floyd protests with a bit of handwaving, but an catch-all page would be less strained. - Featous (talk) 15:25, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

I like the organizational suggestion and the name suggestion.

• List of changes made due to the George Floyd protests
  • List of monuments and memorials removed during the George Floyd protests
  • List of name changes due to the George Floyd protests
  • List of police reforms related to the George Floyd protests

— Normal Op (talk) 16:47, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

There's now The Simpsons and Family Guy to add to the list of casting changes. @Another Believer, Dying, Gobonobo, GoingBatty, Kire1975, and Spirit of Eagle: What do you think of the suggestion to create a general List of changes made due to the George Floyd protests? Ham II (talk) 06:40, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

I approve. This seems like a good way to organize everything. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 16:59, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

@Ham II: I agree with your proposal for a list, but it might be challenging to confirm whether each change was a direct result of the George Floyd protests. GoingBatty (talk) 17:50, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

i think the scope of the articles should be expanded and agree that this looks like a good way to do so. thanks for the suggestion, Ham II. i also agree that it may be "challenging to confirm whether each change was a direct result of the George Floyd protests", but am unsure whether that should fall into the scope of this decision. dying (talk) 10:31, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

 Done: I've now created List of changes made due to the George Floyd protests. Ham II (talk) 10:03, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

United Confederate Veterans Memorial

 Resolved

See United Confederate Veterans Memorial ---Another Believer _(Talk) 15:28, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

 Done! Another Believer alerted us to the link for this monument (above),  Implemented by Tkiehne who added it to the article,  Verified yesterday by Normal Op that it had been entered on the main page, re- Confirmed today by Normal Op. Today marking this thread done. Someone can now archive it. Normal Op (talk) 16:37, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Elk (sculpture), Portland, Oregon

I'm not sure this applies, but last night protesters set Elk (sculpture) on fire. As far as I know, this statue has nothing to do with Confederacy/racism/etc but this is still a destruction of a statue during the ongoing protests and, if anything, something to keep an eye on. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 15:23, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Update: https://www.koin.com/news/protests/fire-set-at-elk-fountain-in-downtown-portland-causes-little-damage/ The statue has been removed, but again, more as a result of the ongoing protests but not intentionally because of connections to racism. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 21:01, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

I say add it in: it is a statue and it was removed as a direct result of the protests.Spirit of Eagle (talk) 01:02, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

ABC has a running list of removed statues; these may be worth looking through

Resolved

[8] Spirit of Eagle (talk) 02:58, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Wow, great find! Thanks for sharing. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 02:59, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Glad I could help. I've moved the list onto an excel doc and am currently checking if we've missed anything that's actually been removed. I'll update the list a bit later with what I find. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 03:26, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

The article had three categorizations: removed, planned, and requested; I've listed all of the missing removed and planned things below. The "requested" category includes all requests made by literally any group to remove something, including requested removals with basically no chance of success. I haven't gone through this category because I don't think it would be particularly helpful for our various articles. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 04:23, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

I just finished going through the entries. Every item has either been added to one of the lists, shuttled off to one of the other pages for more in-depth discussion, or confirmed to already be covered in one of the articles. At this point, this section and its sub-sections can be archived. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 04:19, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Removed monuments

Ok, I’ve finished looking through the list of removed monuments (but not requested or planned). Overall, we have been very thorough and there are only a handful we have missed; some of the “missing” statues are probably already present and I’m listing only for thoroughness. The missing statues are as follows:

• Statue in Tuscaloosa, Alabama (in addition to the University plaques)

[9] Looks like the "statue" was really just one of the plaques placed on a free-standing, moderately carved rock. Removal date for plaques has been updated; no new listings have been added. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 02:50, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

• A sign that honors Robert E. Lee, located at “two sequoia trees” (Sequoia and Kings Canyon Parks, California)

Sign not actually removed; removal of listing on National Park websites brought to the List of Changes article talk page.

• A large Confederate flag In Tampa, Florida (likely the large flag moved in Seffner (which is near Tampa); the List of changes made due to the George Floyd protests already includes this but probably worth the google search).

This is in fact the Seffner flag.

• Thomas Jefferson statue (Decatur, Georgia)

Added to list

• Confederate statue (Nashville, Tennessee) (note: this may be the Sam Davis Statue, which is already listed).

I'm positive this was the Sam Davis statue.

• Christopher Columbus Park (San Antonio, Texas) (The park was apparently renamed, so it should be listed in the name change article. A statue was also removed from the park which we have listed).

No name change has been decided on; San Antonio will be holding a vote on July 16 [10]

By the way, I give anyone permission to strike entries from the above list. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 04:02, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Planned removals

I just finished going through the planned removals section. Note that the list is a little over a week out of date, so some of these may have actually been removed since the list was created. The list:

• Christopher Columbus carving (Norwich, Connecticut)

Added

• A Confederate statue (Plaquemine, Louisiana)

Already present

• State flag (Jackson, Mississippi) (Probably belongs on the List of changes made due to the George Floyd protests which lists similar take-downs of the Mississippi flag).

After the previous flag of Mississippi was eliminated, a ceremony was held in Jackson where the prior flag was lowered. THis looks part and parcel to the overarching redesign rather than an individual city banning the state flag

As usual, I give permission to cross out entries in the above list Spirit of Eagle (talk) 04:15, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Two more monuments out of Richmond

Resolved

[11] One is to Fitzhugh Lee, a Confederate veteran and a veteran of the Spanish-American War. The second is to Joseph Bryan, a journalist who fought in Mosby's Rangers. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 04:36, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Monuments added; this section can be archived. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 01:11, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Statue to Thomas Ruffin removed

Resolved

[12] The statue was to a Supreme Court justice of the North Carolina Court. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 06:25, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Spirit of Eagle, There's a stub for Statue of Thomas Ruffin, which is already listed in the table. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 13:23, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Whoops, I must of missed that one. Feel free to archive away. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 17:09, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Update on templates

As mentioned above, each entry in the tables should now be produced with one of the following templates, depending on the section:

• {{RM row}} for the US subsections of Monuments and memorials
• {{RM row ns}} for the non-US subsections of Monuments and memorials
• {{RM row si}} for the Symbols and insignias section
• {{RM row b}} for the Buildings section
• {{RM row name}} for the Names and nomenclature section

Note that the date columns no longer require use of a sort template. Dates that consist of just a month name and day (e.g., June 12) are presumed to be in 2020. Other dates should be given Mmm dd, yyyy format.

• Update: The sorting doesn't currently work right. Working on it...

—[AlanM1 (talk)]— 00:58, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Templates implemented

I created {{RM row}} and {{RM row ns}} (for the non-US rows) and implemented them in the List of monuments and memorials removed during the George Floyd protests/Archive 3#Monuments and memorials section. This will facilitate style changes we are currently discussing and should improve maintainability. The differences are:

1. For the US table, each entry, instead of beginning with "|-" or "|- style="background:lightblue"" (for the pending removals), now begins with "{{RM row" or "{{RM row |p=y", respectively. For the non-US tables, the template name is "RM row ns" instead of "RM row".
2. The first two values (the monument name and image) now begin with "|" instead of "!".
3. The last value (the reference) is now followed by "}}".

Before:
|- style="background:lightblue"
! ''[[Bentonville Confederate Monument]]''
! [[File:09-02-06-BentonvilleConfed-monument.jpg|100px|Bentonville Confederate Monument]]
| [[Bentonville, Arkansas|Bentonville]]
... (4 or 5 more values) ...
|<ref>...</ref>

After:
{{RM row |p=y
| ''[[Bentonville Confederate Monument]]''
| [[File:09-02-06-BentonvilleConfed-monument.jpg|100px|Bentonville Confederate Monument]]
| [[Bentonville, Arkansas|Bentonville]]
... (4 or 5 more values) ...
|<ref>...</ref>
}}

—[AlanM1 (talk)]— 08:10, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

@AlanM1: This is too complicated. With respect, why is the blue color so important? Everybody's just posting links on the talk page hoping for a gatekeeper with expert coding knowledge will add them to the list because every time we try to do it your way it screws up the whole page. Kire1975 (talk) 15:37, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

@Kire1975: The idea was to make it less complicated, and be able to implement some of the changes being asked for. I didn't create the blue highlighting – I just made it easier to do correctly. Isn't |p=y easier to get right than style="background:lightblue"?

People no longer have to remember to use "!" to start the first two entries.

There's also the issue of the dates and having to put a sortkey in front of them, getting all the punctuation and spacing right (which people haven't done correctly – the date sort doesn't work accurately), which I was going to resolve today. People will be able to put in either "June 12", implying 2020, or a properly-formatted complete date like "November 11, 2017" and have it sort correctly regardless, without having to know and remember how to use {{sortkey}} and the format of the keys used in other entries.

Lastly, there's the issue of people wanting to change the way city/state sorting works, add/remove columns, format the description columns, etc., all of which can be much more easily accomplished now by a change to a template (or four) instead of dozens of complicated, error-prone edits to the individual entries. —[AlanM1 (talk)]— 20:58, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

I added some simple instructions at Template:RM row that should make it easier for non-coders to add new rows to the table. Normal Op (talk) 21:09, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

AlanM1 & Normal Op Thanks for trying. I've done everything as you suggested trying to add the John Sutter statue this morning, but it still came out screwed up. Is there a way to make it possible to visually edit these lists like all the other lists I've evre seen on Wikipedia without resorting to all kinds of complicated new templates that always screw up or unclear reasons? Kire1975 (talk) 17:12, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Kire1975, I don't use visual editors, so I cannot advise. Normal Op (talk) 17:30, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Kire1975 In your case, it was a missing trailing ']' in a wikilink. Not sure how that's related to whether a template or raw table markup is used, except that the software might react differently to the syntax error. Again, the purpose of the template is to reduce the amount of manual markup required, which I believe it does. Does the visual editor not handle use of a (very simple, currently) template? Perhaps someone familiar with it can comment? —[AlanM1 (talk)]— 03:33, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Order of entries

1. Why are we asked to add entries to the tables in order by date? What purpose does that serve?
2. If that is important, it would be a lot easier if the items were in reverse order by date, so any adfitions would go to the top of the table, It's much easier, at least for me, to add an entry at the beginning.

deisenbe (talk) 10:35, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

It started out that way. No reason it needs to remain that way. Frankly, I think we should reorganize the page by state, alphabetically. And no, reverse chronological order is extremely difficult to maintain and is not intuitive. I've worked on Lists in Wikipedia for quite some time. All reverse-chrono lists wind up being flipped to chronological after a time. Normal Op (talk) 16:21, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

deisenbe, are you editing using a desktop machine? if so, have you tried using any keyboard shortcuts to jump to the bottom of the page? offhand, i am familiar with ⌘ Command+↓ for macos, as well as end (and possibly fn+→) for windows, though what works obviously depends on your operating system, browser, and keyboard. dying (talk) 01:35, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

I use an iPad. deisenbe (talk) 08:50, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

oh, wow. i cannot imagine contributing as much as you have to wikipedia via an ipad. that's pretty impressive. dying (talk) 12:42, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Year created column

It occurred to me that this would have important information, in some cases. The year monument was erected.

I'll go through and add the column now, but this is a bit of work - do others think that would be a good idea? deisenbe (talk) 10:36, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Absolutely! And artists' names, too. Ham II (talk) 11:58, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Alternate suggestion: Anyone could place the year under the statue name in column one, in parentheses. Example, [[Bentonville Confederate Monument]] could become [[Bentonville Confederate Monument]]<br />(1908). It is a fairly common format to place a year next to (or under) a title or work. What we do not need is a new column. There will never be a need to sort on such a column. Normal Op (talk) 19:29, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

How about (e.g.) [[Statue of Edward Colston]]<br /><small>([[John Cassidy (artist)|John Cassidy]], 1895)</small>, and dates alone if we can't find the name of an artist or architect? Ham II (talk) 08:46, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

You can put whatever you want after the name, because the likelihood of it bothering the column sort function is slim. If I were the reader of the article, I wouldn't mind to see that some (not all) had dates, and some (not all) had artists mentioned. As an editor, to see such added information pasted after the statue name means to me that it's optional and I don't have to kill myself trying to find it before I can make a new entry in the table. If you made it a column, then I would feel compelled to seek out the information (which can be a lot of research and a lot of work). Normal Op (talk) 09:40, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Please make sure to archive your sources at the Wayback Machine

This is the type of list that will get hit very hard by link rot; if sources are not saved, a lot of the work we are doing will be undone. To save, just copy the url and go to http://web.archive.org/save. This will create a permanent archive that can be used when sources are lost over time. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 16:39, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

This should be done by a bot. If someone knows how to get one written please do. deisenbe (talk) 22:08, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Deisenbe, This is easy to do. On any article, just click on the "View history" tab, then click on "Fix dead links". Once logged in, you can check the box to archive links, and a bot will take care of the rest. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 22:09, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Another Believer: Huh, I learn something new every day. Thanks! Normal Op (talk) 02:30, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

@Another Believer:: That is a neat tool. Thanks. I ran it on this page (not the Talk page) today.deisenbe (talk) 11:21, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Deisenbe, Great! Yes, I use this tool whenever I expand and article and especially before I nominate one for Good status. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 13:10, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Mass archival

I just performed a scan of the page, and it added an archived section to every single citation. If anyone objects to this, please feel free to revert. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 06:29, 22 June 2020 (UTC) Edit: I undid the edit since it will be much easier to add it back in than remove the links. Does anyone have any objections to adding these archival links back in? Since its completely automated, there's no need to do this by hand. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 06:31, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Spirit of Eagle: It's okay for the archival links to be there. Note that the parameter url-status=live or url-status=dead will change the language of how the citation appears to the reader. See this link for an example of how the citation changes if you change the archive-url answer. In other words, your IABot edit was fine. Normal Op (talk) 07:01, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Delaware Law Enforcement Memorial

Unresolved

Where did we land on whether or not the Delaware Law Enforcement Memorial applies to this list? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 13:55, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Unresolved, with the only two commenters (myself included) concurring that removal was appropriate due to the lack of connection to the protests. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 21:45, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

@Another Believer: Has it, or will it be, removed (which is one of the necessary criteria implied by the title)? —[AlanM1 (talk)]— 20:08, 25 June 2020 (UTC)