Talk:List of largest empires

Empires with sourced areas but without dates

I figured I'd make a section for empires where sources have been found for the maximum extent but with no year specified (meaning they can't be included in the list). My hope is that this will be helpful when people try to locate sources. Feel free to add entries of your own to the list below. TompaDompa (talk) 23:38, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

• Ashanti Empire: 100,000 square miles – since added using this source which provides the corresponding figure of 250,000 km² and the year 1820. TompaDompa (talk) 21:05, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
• Balhae: 438,000 km²
• Đại Cồ Việt: 110,000 km²
• Durrani Empire: 780,000 square miles/2,000,000 km²
• Dzungar Khanate: 3,600,000 km² – since added using this source which provides the same figure and the year 1650. TompaDompa (talk) 03:03, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
• Kanem Empire: 300,000 square miles
• Nguyễn dynasty: 370,000 km²
• Southern Qi: 2,147,000 km²
• Phoenicia: 250,000 square miles
• Vijayanagara Empire: 360,000 km²
• Wari Empire: 320,000 km²
• Wuhuan: 400,000 km²
• Xianbei state: 4,500,000 km² – since added using this source which provides the same figure and the year 200. TompaDompa (talk) 03:03, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

I think we can add those empires in the list, I would only noted in the time cell "unknown". Janos Neman (talk) 12:09, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

This article is about largest empires, as such they might not have been at the time they existed. Slatersteven (talk)

References

German Empire

• The below should be added.
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Empire

Kenixkil (talk) 04:47, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Why? what made it the largest empire at the time? Slatersteven (talk) 09:59, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Doesn't have to be the largest at the time to go on the main list, and in fact it is already on there (as the German colonial empire). TompaDompa (talk) 10:15, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

But it has to be one of the largest... This isnt "list of all empires" its list of *largest* empires, and the german one, colonial or otherwise, is not one of them. Cristiano Tomás (talk) 13:44, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

I assumed they were talking about just the European empire (as it is not here), not the one we have here. Slatersteven (talk) 13:48, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

I mean, going by this (non-exhaustive) list it is one of the 50 largest in history. The list used to have a minimum size threshold for inclusion but it was removed following discussion about it back in 2018. I would be in favour of reintroducing such a threshold. TompaDompa (talk) 14:50, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes, it seems a minimum threshold would be a good idea. Slatersteven (talk) 14:53, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. Do you remember what the threshold was? Cristiano Tomás (talk) 16:32, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes. It was 2% of the total land area of the world, introduced by me back in 2016. See Talk:List of largest empires/Archive 7#Threshold for inclusion, Talk:List of largest empires/Archive 7#The United States, Talk:List of largest empires/Archive 7#Suggest you need substantial restructuring of this article, and Talk:List of largest empires/Archive 8#Reliability of sources for the discussion leading to that threshold being removed. TompaDompa (talk) 17:28, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Should we start a new RFC? Slatersteven (talk) 18:01, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Not a terrible idea (WP:Consensus can change), but it would need to be thought through properly ahead of time. Two obvious things that need to be worked out is what the threshold should be and what to to about entries where some estimates fall below the threshold and others above it. TompaDompa (talk) 18:28, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Well as I see it there are two issues, which is the absolute size (complicated by the fact that not all periods of history have even had global power projection) or largest within a given period (that is to say, a recognized historical period, and just a self-selected range of dates. Slatersteven (talk) 18:40, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

The idea behind the "Timeline of largest empires to date" and "Timeline of largest empires at the time" is to provide that historical perspective, with the main list being about absolute size. I don't think introducing different thresholds for different periods of time in the main list is a good idea (or feasible, really). TompaDompa (talk) 19:29, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

I think those sections are fine. Barjimoa (talk) 11:56, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Austrian Empire

The Austrian Empire (1804-1867) should to be added... It was larger then the Austro-Hungarian Empire... Marius70 (talk) 17:54, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Lets wait. Slatersteven (talk) 18:01, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 June 2024

According to Murray Last in his book "The sokoto caliphate" the emirate of agadez should be included,taking in to account too that sokoto had control of oyo during a brief time(illorin-yoruba wars),parts of bornu in the initial jihad,adamawa alone being 400ksqkm and that sheku amadu pledged alligeance to the empire(emirate of hamdullahi) there is no way sokoto was only 400ksqkm I used google earth to calculate and it gives me 2.1 millionsqkm Takruri (talk) 12:16, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Please read wp:or. Slatersteven (talk) 12:19, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 June 2024

The definition of empire is a major political unit ran by a central government which has complete authority over its territories, typical one of great expanse. I believe for this reason the United States should be added in the ranking below the Yuan Dynasty and above the Xiongnu Empire. The United States fits the criteria of a nation with a large expanse with a great influence. Many examples on the list are not necessarily ruled by Emperors and the definition itself is very loose and disputed. The United States at it's largest expanse in 1898 had a rounded 3.8 million Sq. Mi very similar to the current territorial size of the United States but it should be listed in 1898 because of it being the largest extent of the territory. This would put it in 10th of the largest Empires by land area. If request is accepted other data on the page can be changed such as "largest at the time" or "population rankings and percentage of world population". ColePineapple (talk) 07:31, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. This is likely unverifiable so it can't be added. As Wikipedians, it does not fall onto us to decide whether or not it is an empire. The US is not commonly considered (internally or externally) to be one, so it doesn't go on the list Irltoad (talk) 08:52, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

US and USSR as empires

I propose that we add the USSR (at its territorial peak in 1945, following WW2) and the USA (at its territorial peak in 1899, following the Spanish-American War) to the list of largest empires in history. Both entities, despite often being referred to as "superpowers" rather than empires, meet the criteria for inclusion as empires based on their historical and geopolitical characteristics. First of all, both the USSR and the USA had vast territorial holding at their peak, and both would be considered to be very high ranking, if added to the list, with the USSR especially being in the Top 5. Both exerted substantial political and economic influence over their respective spheres of control, akin to the way historical empires dominated their regions. Their capacity to project power across continents was on par with historical empires, like the British Empire. Furthermore, many historians and political scientists have referred to both the USSR and the USA as empires in various scholarly works. Some examples are the books Overthrow by Stephen Kinzer and The Last Empire: The final Days of the Soviet Union, by Serhii Plokhy. EarthTeen (talk) 07:55, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

If you require more sources, here are some recognizable and reliable books as sources in addition to the two books already mentioned, to further prove my point on why the USA and the USSR should be added to the list of the largest empires:

1. Lenin's Tomb: The Last Days of the Soviet Empire by David Remnick

2. Revolution 1989: The Fall of the Soviet Empire by Victor Sebestyen

3. How to Hide an Empire: A History of the Greater United States by Daniel Immerwahr

4. Super Imperialism: The Economic Strategy of American Empire by Michael Hudson EarthDude (talk) 09:48, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

The core problem is that whether the US (and USSR) is/was an empire is controversial because the precise definition of "empire" is. Whether the US should be included has been discussed as far back as 2006, and has been discussed many, many, many, many, many, many times since (non-exhaustive list of previous discussions). For what it is worth, the chief source for this article and the author of the any relatively large sovereign political entity whose components are not sovereign definition—Estonian political scientist Rein Taagepera—considers the United States to be (or at least have been) an empire by that definition. Both the US and USSR are currently mentioned on the list, albeit in footnotes as a former colony of the British Empire and the successor to the Russian Empire, respectively. TompaDompa (talk) 19:05, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes the footnotes are sufficient here. Mellk (talk) 19:06, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes, both the USA and the USSR fit the definition of empire given by Rein Taagepera. I don't see why they shouldn't be added to the list. EarthDude (talk) 08:33, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

So do the modern-day countries of Canada, China, Brazil, Australia, India, and Argentina (to name a few). Would you likewise be in favour of including those? TompaDompa (talk) 16:44, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

While the definition of "empire" can be debated, numerous reputable sources recognize both the USA and the USSR as fitting the criteria. For instance, the Encyclopedia Britannica defines an empire as a major political unit with extensive territory or peoples under a single authority, which both the USA and USSR achieved at their peaks. The two also completely fit the definitions of empire given by the Cambridge Dictionary and Oxford, which describe empires in terms of geopolitical dominance. Historically, the USA has had colonies such as the Philippines and Liberia, and modern actions like the War on Terror demonstrate its imperial reach. The USSR controlled many satellite states, including Poland and East Germany, showcasing its extensive influence as well. Furthermore, as a historical example, the British Empire was recognized for its formal colonies and spheres of influence. The USA's and USSR's global strategies were similar, establishing economic, military, and political dominance over vast regions. Therefore, including the USA and USSR on the list of largest empires is necessary for accurate historical representation. Whereas the countries you mentioned fit none of these definitions. EarthDude (talk) 04:13, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Canada and Australia certainly fit the definition of being a major political unit with extensive territory or peoples under a single authority, while it is questionable whether several of the empires currently on the list fit the "geopolitical dominance" definition. Whatever approach you suggest, it needs to be internally consistent and be able to be applied by different people with the same or extremely similar results (i.e. at worst minimally subjective/up for interpretation). TompaDompa (talk) 17:59, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes, the definition of empire is very fluid and many of the empires in this list don't even match every definition of it. What I am saying is that the both the USA and the USSR match multiple credible and reliable definitions of it. EarthDude (talk) 05:10, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Concretely, how do you propose we go about determining what gets an entry in the list and what does not? TompaDompa (talk) 11:25, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

From the way I see it, to determine what gets added in the list, it needs to fit multiple credible definitions of 'empire', including the one given by Rein, as well as have multiple different reliable and reputed sources behind it. EarthDude (talk) 19:44, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

That sounds like it would result in rather restrictive inclusion criteria. What other definitions did you have in mind? If we are to take this approach, we really need to get specific about it to be able to apply it consistently. TompaDompa (talk) 20:38, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

"modern actions like the War on Terror demonstrate its imperial reach" Are you suggesting that we should cover every superpower as an empire? The definition we currently use for superpowers is "sovereign state or supranational union that holds a dominant position characterized by the ability to exert influence or project power on a global scale". Dimadick (talk) 08:31, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Merely having influence doesn't make a country and Empire. I would only qualify the US and the USSR as empires. For instance, China doesn't have colonies or satellite states like the USA and USSR did. The statement regarding the war on terror, was simply there to give a modern example of what would be considered an imperial action. The USA attacked and occupied multiple different countries and set up governments more supportive of it, similar to how the British Empire acted in the Anglo-Maratha Wars for example, where it occupied many regions and installed supportive governments in those regions, rather than simply annexing all of them. EarthDude (talk) 05:12, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Russia / Alaska

Why does the list use Russia's 1895 land area for the calculations, when it reached its largest territorial extent before selling Alaska to the U.S.? See this image, the gains in Turkestan and elsewhere aren't even close to the loss in area from selling Alaska: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/Territorial_Expansion_of_Russia.svg. In fact, the 1.72 million kilometers of Alaskan territory [subtracting gains between 1867-1895] might make 1867 pre-Alaskan purchase Russia the second largest empire in history, and the largest in the world and in contemporary history prior to selling. FelixSta (talk) 09:59, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Because we follow the sources. See page 498 here. TompaDompa (talk) 10:11, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

I hate to say it, but this is just clearly wrong, even through simple visual comparison on a map.

The source does not take into account event-by-event changes, and grouped several decades of time from 1840-1870 and then places it as an overall loss of territory between those three decades. The thing is, those events obviously did not happen at the same time, with the selling of Alaska occurring after the Amur annexation, seizing of Sakhalin, and a large majority of Central Asia annexed before 1867 (incorrectly categorized as a 1870-1895 acquisition). The historiography here is just incorrect in the conclusion it reaches (through miscategorization and lack of knowledge about earlier territorial expansion in Turkestan). FelixSta (talk) 10:27, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Or perhaps it just doesn't count all the territory that you would expect as being controlled by the Russian Empire by the time of the Sale of Alaska in 1867, making the loss then smaller and/or the gains after larger than you would expect. The exact reason doesn't really matter. It's a peer-reviewed scientific article specifically about the territorial extents of historical polities, just about the WP:BESTSOURCE we could get for something like this. A WP:USERGENERATED map on WP:COMMONS is not a WP:RELIABLE source. TompaDompa (talk) 10:46, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm not implying that the user-generated map is a perfect source, but it is pretty clear that there is middle ground between several of these large territorial changes prior to the massive decrease in land area due to the selling of Alaska. The Amur annexation completed in 1860, the Kazakh Kanate was annexed in 1847, and Circassia would be annexed in 1864.

None of these events with recorded dates (further examples of earlier acquisitions at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_evolution_of_Russia) are up for questioning of scholarly merit, nor is that of the Alaskan purchase. In general, for the relevant territory, you could simply check the dates at which said territory would be annexed into the Russian Empire and find the date at which the piece of territory or national polity was conquered. There's not much confusion about which version is larger either, there just needs to be a scholarly source which takes the effort to sum up the territorial area. FelixSta (talk) 12:05, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

You can make a case for excluding good information that lacks a reliable source (or putting an asterisk by it). But it's absurd to include clear misinformation just because we have a peer-reviewed scientific article for it. - Burner89751654 (talk) 15:39, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Alaska was sold to the USA March 30, 1867, At this time Russia did not control North Turkmenistan, Sakhalin, Kyrgyzstan and West Tajikistan, Southern Bessarabia, Kars Oblast and Batum Oblast, andSouth Turkmenistan as well as (gained in 1895) East Tajikistan. Slatersteven (talk) 15:46, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Alaska's land area is about 1.5 million square kilometers. All those other regions you listed are under 1 million combined. So between 1867 and 1895 Russia lost a lot more land than it gained. - Burner89751654 (talk) 03:38, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Spanish empire area 1800

Louisiana, with an area of ​​2,275,000 km2, was part of the Spanish Empire between 1762 and 1801. This was the year of greatest extension of the Spanish empire, not 1810. 2A02:9130:FD0B:2B37:A95F:9CD9:711:6087 (talk) 03:03, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. Especially before it lost Eastern Louisiana (which was another million square kilometers) and Florida in 1763. Looks like a similar issue to the Russia / Alaska issue mentioned above. - Burner89751654 (talk) 01:38, 11 July 2024 (UTC)