Talk:List of Pakistani inventions and discoveries

Page for the inventions and discoveries of Pakistan

This page is for the inventions and discoveries of Pakistan there is still work to do and alot more to add so I will continuing working on the page and I would appreciate any help. Regards S Seagal (talk) 17:28, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

I wonder what this article is supposed to look like when it's finished. Right now half of it could be termed "List of inventions by the Indus Valley civilization and its predecessors", and the other half is about modern Pakistan. What about the millennia in between? I doubt there were many realms which shared the boundaries of modern-day Pakistan (the Mauraya and Mughal empires were quite a bit larger, for example, while the Delhi Sultanate's control of Pakistan seems to have been in flux for most of its existence), and I don't know whether modern Pakistan sees itself as the successor of any of them. Is this list supposed to cover all inventions made within the boundaries of modern-day Pakistan? If, for example, a Mughal inventor lived in Lahore, we would include his work, but if another Mughal inventor lived in Delhi, his work would not be included? Huon (talk) 02:40, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

The number of inventions and discovers made in Pakistan is very extensive and there is alot of other innovations that are too be added. I would appreciate any help that you are willing to extend to help make this article one of the

best articles on wikipedia. Please put forward suggestions, Best Regards S Seagal (talk) 14:34, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

pakistan did not exist prior to 1947 as a country and prior to 1933 as a word. as such I have deleted stuff prior to 1947. please discuss here before putting anything prior to 1947 on this page. Plase also refer to this post by user Fowler&fowler (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) [1]--Wikireader41 (talk) 21:43, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

see below section before you vandalise see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Vandalism S Seagal (talk) 15:07, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Indus Valley

Before this page has been vandalised by removing content the article clearly states that the inventions took place by Pakistani nations or within the territorial area of Pakistan, Pakistan as a nation state is new but as a land is ancient. THere is a currently a naming dispute in the List of "INdian discoveries" page but this page should not be held hostage to that naming dispute and all pakistani invetions should go here until the issue is resolved.S Seagal (talk) 15:04, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Also I would like to add that wikireader was offered the chance to help improve the article and since the start has been out to undermine this article and remove content by vandalism. See the discussion on the Pakistan page. S Seagal (talk) 15:06, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

I see Wikireader's point. Technically, there is no "ancient Pakistan" any more than there is an "ancient United States" (or an "ancient Republic of India"), and pre-1947, categorizing inventions by whether they happened in the territory of modern Pakistan is arbitrary and not helpful for the reader. Would a reader interested in the inventions made by people in the part of the Mughal empire which nowadays is part of Pakistan not also be interested in inventions made by people in other parts of the Mughal empire? Thus, I have severe doubts about the intended scope of this list. Whatever its name, a single list for the pre-1947 inventions seems vastly preferable to breaking them apart according to modern borders.

Of course, nevertheless unilateral wholesale removal of content is not the way to go, though it's technically also not vandalism. Huon (talk) 16:02, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Huon. The stuff he put prior to 1947 was copied from another list. No ancient pakistan existed and claiming so is a severe violation of WP:NPOV and technically vandalism. maybe this list needs to be deleted.--Wikireader41 (talk) 19:18, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

THe section has been renamed Indus Valley civilization, PLease see warning on your page for repeated vandalism, If it continues it may result in a ban. You have been given the chance to help make the article but instead you are

are going around vandalising the article for personal nationalistic motives S Seagal (talk) 21:41, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

From my point of view, both of you show equal amounts of personal nationalistic motives, and technically probably neither of your edits are vandalism. Could we agree to call it a content dispute and try to resolve it instead of degenerating into reciprocal accusations?

I have argued above that the intended scope of this article is a bad idea because imposing the current borders on the pre-1947 region is not helpful in any way. Could you please address this concern? Huon (talk) 22:00, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Repeated Vandalism Requesting Admin Help To Mediate

THis article is being repeatedly attacked and vandalised by wikireader, He has been offered the chance to help contribute towards the content of the article instead he is going around removing large sections of the article without working towards a concensus with other editors. Best if an admin gets involved and helps mediate here and in the list of Indian inventions and discoveries pageS Seagal (talk) 21:44, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

do noot add controversial info against what is being said above. Pay attention to what Huon says and also Fowler&fowlers comments which I have linked. You are the only one who thinks Pakistan/ Pakistanis existed prior to 1947. Please read this article to refresh your memory of Pakistan's historyPakistan's circular history.--Wikireader41 (talk) 22:09, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

You continue to vandalise this article instead of helping add to it which the chance has been offered to you before and your spurned down the chance in favour of violating wikipedia rules despite several warnings. Make suggestions here and on the list of indian inventions page before making changes. I could easily start removing content from the India page but I have so far refrained until a decision is made. see above by Huon:

From my point of view, both of you show equal amounts of personal nationalistic motives, and technically probably neither of your edits are vandalism. Could we agree to call it a content dispute and try to resolve it instead of degenerating into reciprocal accusations?

I have argued above that the intended scope of this article is a bad idea because imposing the current borders on the pre-1947 region is not helpful in any way. Could you please address this concern? Huon (talk) 22:00, 19 March 2011 (UTC) S Seagal (talk) 16:03, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

OK, I have intervened by protecting the page since you both seem to be unable to resolve the dispute through the talk page. I'm not going to try to get involved with one side or the other and will instead remain a neutral party. Instead, I strongly advise that you request a third opinion on how to deal with this. I offer the following points for consideration:

• Neither side is vandalizing, and calling it such is a personal attack, so stop that.
• Neither side is exempt from the three-revert-rule and the fact that neither of you is blocked is just because I don't feel like it will help the situation right now.
• Removing sourced content and calling it 'controversial' is meaningless unless you provide a reason why it is controversial (such as it being a non-reliable source or being known as a flawed source).
• Repeatedly adding sourced content after it has been removed is edit warring.

Take advantage of dispute resolution procedures please, such as WP:3O, to find a consensus on this article. I'm not going to unprotect this article until there's a clear picture of what is to be done, with agreement on both sides. --Shirik (Questions or Comments?) 17:08, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Duplication tag

The section on the lost Bronze Age Indus Valley Civilization duplicates the material from the List of inventions and discoveries of the Indus Valley Civilization. This issue, along with the wider question of what to do with the List of Indian inventions and discoveries, needs to be addressed here. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 00:43, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Following the RM, the section on the lost Bronze Age Indus Valley Civilization now duplicates the List of South Asian inventions and discoveries. The discussion can still be found at Talk:List of Indian inventions and discoveries. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 13:14, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

IVC

I see someone again removed the IVC items without consultation, The IVC items that were made in Pakistan must be removed from the Indian list of inventions and discoveries aswell if we are to make an entirely separate page for the IVC inventions. There is no chance of the Indian article keeping the IVC items and the IVC inventions which took place within the territory of what is now Pakistan being removed. All IVC inventions should go in the IVC article not just the ones invented in Pakistan, S Seagal (talk) 00:53, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

How about discussing the Indian list on its own talk page instead of here? Furthermore, the IVC inventions on this list, on the Indian list and on the IVC list coincided when last I checked (with the exception of cotton cultivation, and I don't see how that has anything to do with the India/Pakistan border). What invention do you think is missing where? Finally, I strongly object to the current inclusion criterion for inventions. It's ahistorical nonsense if we are to include Mughal inventors active in Lahore and exclude their contemporaries active in Delhi. Before we discuss whether the IVC belongs on this list, I'd suggest revising the list's inclusion criteria so they make a little more sense. Huon (talk) 01:23, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

POF Eye being listed here is misleading, since it is neither an invention nor a discovery of Pakistan

When I first saw this POF listed here, I got the incorrect impression that this was a Pakistani idea. In fact, the POF Eye is very closely modeled after earlier inventions, and if it was displayed side-by-side with the Cornershot, which was reportedly introduced years earlier, most people could not tell them apart. The idea itself came out of Germany in WWII (see: Krummlauf), and the nearly identical Cornershot was introduced in the early 2000's, so how it is possible Pakistan "invented" it in 2008?

I think it is incorrectly listed here, since it gives that false impression that it was first "invented" by Pakistan. It should also not say under the picture on the Pakistan page that it is a Pakistani invention.

This is blatant misrepresentation. Wikipedia has contradicting information on other pages about identical products and ideas coming first, so at the very least there is very questionable inconsistancy here.

GoldenSockPuppet (talk) 19:00, 8 February 2012 (UTC)GoldenSockPuppet

The entire "defence" section only contained Pakistani versions of foreign inventions, not Pakistani inventions. I have removed it. Huon (talk) 19:58, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

TopGun re-added that section without addressing the issues. Per WP:BURDEN, the burden of evidence lies on the editor who wants material included, not the other way arount. Nonetheless, GoldenSockPuppet provided the CornerShot and the Krummlauf as precursors of the POF Eye; the Babur is obviously predated by the V-1 flying bomb and the Tomahawk, the KSR-2 is an air-launched cruise missile predating the Ra'ad by a few decades (and there might be even earlier examples), and the Mohafiz, while surprisingly coming closest to being a Pakistani invention, is predated by the M1117 Armored Security Vehicle (I couldn't find other examples of internal security vehicles, but the Russians may also have something along those lines which would probably predate the Mohafiz). In summary, while these devices certainly are high-tech products of Pakistan's armaments industry (excepting the Mohafiz; that's rather low-tech), they do not represent Pakistani inventions but rather Pakistani adaptions of foreign inventions. Huon (talk) 16:01, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

That was not a simple re-inclusion, I actually mentioned such being the case (you reverted without reading that). But the reason they should still be included in the article is that they are widely notable in Pakistan. --lTopGunl (talk) 16:20, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, you did call three of them "reinventions". Unfortunately this is not a list of reinventions, but of inventions, and no amount of notability will change that (as an aside, all three references for the Mohafiz are dead links; that doesn't look too notable to me). Pakistan produces many notable adaptions of foreign-invented technology, and they might possibly make a decent list of their own (or they might be used to expand our coverage of Pakistani Arms Industry), but this is the wrong place. Huon (talk) 16:39, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Ok, convinced by your last reply. Thanks for clarifying. --lTopGunl (talk) 16:52, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 July 2014

I am from Pakistan and I have some additions for the list, particularly to Commputing. I want to add accomplishment by Arfa Karim Randhawa and Babar Iqbal. The youngest Microsoft Certified Professionals in World at the time of writing.

I also want to add about NetSol Technologies. The first NASDAQ listed software company. Johnrip99 (talk) 14:00, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

 Not done This is a list of inventions and discoveries. Neither Microsoft certified professionals nor a NASDAQ listed company are inventions. Huon (talk) 14:38, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Pakistani inventions?

Things achieved by the Indus Valley civilisation and the ancient learning center at Taxila aren't Pakistani inventions since they predate Pakistan by thousands of years. If the same faulty logic that is used on this page was applied to other articles as well, everything invented and achieved by the Romans could be listed as Italian inventions... - Tom | Thomas.W ^talk 18:57, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Inclusion criteria

It is hard to make any progress with these lists and categories until we can agree some criteria for what should be included here. There is some discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Technology#National invention categories. Please join in. Andy Dingley (talk) 11:38, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

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Exclude pre-1947 discoveries and inventions

I am a long time IP, IP by choice because I do not like notificationa and i try to minimize addiction to apps/wiki/social media. I am not related to any of the editors mentioned above. I have never edited Pakistan page, i.e. I have no conflict of interest or past good or bad track record with any of these editors above, all are strangers to me except that IO recognise Fowler from IVC related articles where he is highly respected by other established editors of the topics. Even Fowler, a significant contributor on on IVC articles, believes (Indus Valley Civilization) IVC inventions or pre-1947 should not be in this article.

I refer to multiple sections above on this article's talkpage where multiple editors have repeatedly raised the issue that the pre-partition of India invention and discoveries must not be placed in the List of Pakistani inventions and discoveries]. Well-respected editors on IVC, including Fowler&fowler have raised objection that the IVC inventions should not go in Poakistan article. Wikireader41, Gun Powder Ma, Huon, Thomas.W, Andy Dingley too have raised the similar concern over the years. But, the user S Seagal continued to demonstrate the problematic Ownership of content behavior and as pointed by other editors he has been WP:DISRUPTIVE and pushing his WP:POV by ignoring same objection raised by numerous editors. India with a common geographical unit with common name has existed since the time of IVC. Pakistan did not gain independence. India, which existed earlier, gained independence, and India was partitioned and that is how a previously-nonexistent Pakistan was born/formed as a brand new nation. There was no Pakistan before that, however India has existed for centuries before that.

As per established wikipedia conventions and policies, these belong to List of Indian inventions and discoveries. Sicne this is a protected article, I am unable to edit it. Please do the following.

1. Remove the IVC inventions from Pakistani article and move it to Indian article.

2. Change the lede of Pakistani article to the following:

This article lists inventions and discoveries made by scientists with Pakistani nationality within Pakistan and outside the country since the formation of Pakistan on 14 August 1947. As per the established wikipedia conventions and policies, place the invention prior to the 14 August 1947 in List of Indian inventions and discoveries. See also misappropriation.

3. Counsel and inform the editor of Pakistani page who are demonstrating the Ownership of content, to stop doing that, stop adding pre 1947 discoveries to Pakistani article. User S Seagal in particular continues to demonstrate this behavior. Please address his behavior and his pattern of editing.

4. If problematic behavioral pattern is not fixed by theuser "S Seagal", then take him to ANi.

Thanks. 06:29, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Criterion of inclusion

What is the criterion of inclusion? Every alternate research paper puts forward some novel idea, which can be argued to be an invention. TrangaBellam (talk) 10:51, 19 July 2021 (UTC)