Talk:List of F5 and EF5 tornadoes

RfC on Potential F5 / equivalent intensity based on DOW

Should tornadoes with potential F5 / IF5 equivalent winds (260 mph or 420 kmph) indicated by Doppler on Wheels, such as the 2024 Greenfield tornado, be included in the Potential F5/EF5 intensity section of this list? GeorgeMemulous (talk) 17:15, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

• Yes - just a preference for more to be shown, as long as the criteria is also clear in the article. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 01:20, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
• No Unless the source mentioned it was or potentially was an F5/EF5 etc. I think we sort of addressed this already in previous conversations in that it sort of crosses the line into synthesis. I think we also run into the complication of the height where the reading was taken and how that translates to ground-level winds. TornadoLGS (talk) 17:47, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

  Well, Pieter Groenemeijer of the ESSL stated in direct reference to the 250+mph gust that it would have been a valid measurement (professional instrument less than 60 meters above the ground) that may constitute IF5 intensity. Currently, we're fighting for consensus on whether or not DOW gusts are acceptable in general, and whether or not they need to be confirmed over 260mph (IF5 on the measured wind-accepting International Fujita scale, and currently Greenfield's is in a range between 250-290mph). GeorgeMemulous (talk) 18:21, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

  Quick update on Greenfield: "over 300 mph", and "as high as 309-318 mph"

  https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna158040

  https://twitter.com/dowfacility/status/1804575739330613507

  Aside from seemingly being the strongest winds recorded since at least 2013, and possibly beating out Bridge Creek/Moore 1999, it's also well over the 260 mph threshold for a wind measurement-based IF5 rating. Theforge129 (talk) 19:07, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

  Fitting how, despite being the highest confirmed measurements of wind gusts on Earth (Moore and El Reno had variability that could have kept them below 300mph), consensus is still to not include Greenfield and many others that could have produced F5/EF5 damage even in the Possible F5/EF5 intensity category, based solely on old consensus for tornadoes such as Harlan and Andover. The jury's still out for Hollister's actual intensity, and I'm almost certain eventually a meteorological body will end up saying it could have been an EF5, but I think it's ridiculous that explicitly strong winds that could easily destroy structures are discounted for not affecting ground based structures and staying above ground level, ignoring how some tornadoes such as Rainsville 2011 climbed hills that could have easily brought the ground to them are considered EF5 intensity. Greenfield was fast-moving, too; even at 45mph, it was still able to inflict median-range EF4 damage across the southeast quarter of the town. If it moved even 30mph, I have no doubt it would have caused EF5 damage. GeorgeMemulous (talk) 20:26, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

  https://publish.illinois.edu/dowfacility-upgrade/files/2024/06/best-greenfield-windspeed-note-2024-0623bp2.pdf

  "DOW scientists calculate peak ground-relative wind speeds, in a very narrow swath to the immediate east of the path of the center of the tornado circulation, as high as 309-318 mph (138-142 m/s). Since the tornado was very small and fast moving, these peak winds were likely experienced for less than a second at specific locations in town." 142.126.247.141 (talk) 20:53, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

• No – Despite my original beliefs, I have to side with TornadoLGS. To keep the list as verifiable as possible, we need a source stating a tornado (1) was rated F5/EF5/IF5, (2) caused F5/EF5/IF5 damage (or "possible" F5/EF5/IF5 damage), (3) was or "possibly" was F5/EF5/IF5 intensity. The list honestly needs a full reassessment, specifically the individual tornadoes. There was an original attempt at looking at each tornado individually back in 2022, but a new one needs to occur. To note, my specific "No" !vote is not to prevent the Greenfield tornado from the list. But rather prevent Wikipedia editors from saying "It had X measured winds, so it must be F5/EF5/IF5 intensity". The discussion to include or exclude the Greenfield tornado or any tornado on that list must be a source saying it was one of those three points earlier.

With all that said, would anyone oppose me starting a new verification/discussion check for each of the tornadoes that are on the list currently or have been previously discussed? In short, starting and creating a brand new version of Talk:List of F5 and EF5 tornadoes/Discussion, which occurred in 2022-Feb 2023. If a few editors support new verification checks/verification discussions, I will begin work on the place for those discussions. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 20:42, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm just fine with that. Greenfield being 300+mph and Groenemeijer from the ESSL saying it was IF5 intensity should count towards that. DOW is as close to fact as you can get in a tornado, and it's counterintuitive to not include it just because it's the only evidence of F5 intensity, even when experts say it was that intense. GeorgeMemulous (talk) 21:05, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Possible F5/EF5/IF5 tornadoes -- Full Discussion Page

Since we have had a lot of conversations regarding the possible F5/EF5/IF5 tornado charts, I have begun a formal page were all the tornadoes can be discussed and have a formal consensus for inclusion or exclusion.

Discussions Page: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Weather/Possible F5/EF5/IF5 tornadoes. I recommend bookmarking the page in some fashion. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 22:08, 23 June 2024 (UTC)