Talk:List of British police officers killed in the line of duty/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

James Harte

"James Harte - PC - 38 - Leith Burgh Police - 4 April 1900 - Collapsed and died during an arrest" - I'm not sure if "collapsed and died during an arrest" is covered by the criteria of "only those who were killed as a direct result of a crime or while attempting to prevent, stop or solve a specific criminal act". Sounds more of a medical thing to me. What evidence do we have to support the notion that his collapse was caused by a human action rather than, say, a heart attack? S.G.^(GH) _ping! 12:21, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Likewise "Kenneth Adams - Vehicle crashed during police pursuit" unless the car rammed him off the road deliberately, this is an RTC? "Motorcycle rammed into oncoming traffic by suspect" which is one of the next ones down, that's a criminal act. There are two more "Vehicle crashed during police pursuit" which are also too ambiguous, also "Accidentally run over during an arrest" and another "Collapsed and died during an arrest". "Fell through roof while searching for burglar" is also accidental, and "Accidentally run over while pursuing suspect", "Committed suicide after sustaining head injuries in an assault" - that one really doesn't fit. There are many more. I would say either we change the criteria of inclusion for the article, or remove these entries. Because some of the entries are blatantly contradicting content in the lead. S.G.^(GH) _ping! 12:24, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

I would include them. I think the spirit of the article is to also include those who died as an indirect result of criminal activity while excluding those who died in circumstances that could have just as easily involved a civilian. Dying of a heart attack during an arrest is a circumstance that (typically) only a police officer would be involved in. Dying in a car accident without any criminal activity involved is a death that any motorist faces. Or, to use my first example, if an officer dies of a heart attack while sitting in the station lunch room, I wouldn't include it because the officer isn't doing anything beyond what any worker might be doing when they suffer a heart-attack. I can see the argument for "a heart attack is a heart attack", but the officer was actively enforcing the law and I argue that were he/she not engaged in such a physically and emotionally stressful activity, the heart attack may not have occurred. Just running (as a leisure activity) is a strain on the heart, but in a potentially dangerous pursuit there's massive amounts of adrenaline added, creating much greater stress. Similarly, the officer who was accidentally run over probably would not have been running into traffic were he/she not engaged in the enforcement of the law. More officers die in vehicle-related accidents (including getting hit while on the shoulder of the highway) than by any other means. It's because they're exposing themselves to dangerous situations that the average person would not. Civilian motorists stop on the shoulder usually only in an emergency because it's a dangerous place to stop. For police officers, it's their regular workplace. I could see (maybe) excluding officers who were just sitting in their vehicles when some idiot plowed into them, but not an officer who was putting him/herself in danger by actively pursuing a suspect or speeding to a crime scene. --JeffJ (talk) 14:19, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Then I would say the lead needs re-writing slightly. S.G.^(GH) _ping! 16:22, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Having dedicated many hours to getting this article into good shape I mostly concur with what JeffJ has said, that it exists to list those officers who died while actively enforcing the law, whether it be pursuing a suspect or attempting to arrest a suspect, or being fatally attacked. --TBM10 (talk) 19:41, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Refs?

An admirable list, but what's to stop people adding joke entries (hopefully not yet happened)? There are no references here.Malick78 (talk) 22:02, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

The article has thankfully not been the target of any vandalism. The main source for the information is the UK Police Memorial website but I'm sure a Google search of the more recent deaths would produce additional sources. Some of the deaths were obviously highly publicised. To be honest I just haven't had the time to find them. --TBM10 (talk) 22:28, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

What about an inverse list?

It would be interesting to see a list that named all the people who have been *killed by* British police officers whilst on duty. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.101.133.245 (talk) 22:25, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

List of people killed by law enforcement officers in the United Kingdom. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 11:02, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

PC James Gorringe, Nottinghamshire Constabulary

As a former officer of the Nottingham City Police and, post amalgamation, the Nottinghamshire Combined Constabulary, I was disappointed to note the absence from this list of PC James (Jim) Gorringe, Traffic Division, who died around 1969/70 when a commercial vehicle ploughed through the scene of a night-time motorway traffic incident which he was working. Those of us who served in the Traffic Division with Jim held him in the highest regard, both as a professional officer and friend. Hopefully others who worked with Jim will see and support this request for the inclusion of his name in this memorial list of officers losing their lives while performing their duty.Facts and dates should be verifiable through records still held by the current Nottinghamshire Constabulary. (Contributed by former PC 637 Large - e-mail = glarge@tpcg.org) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.50.48.244 (talk) 04:59, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

I see no reason why this should not be added, provided a suitable public domain source could be provided. I would be surprised if there were not a local newpaper report. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:19, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

What I would say is, tragic as those circumstances are, this article is not intended to list those officers who died in accidents. If it did extend to all those, then it would be thousands of entries long, unfortunately. --TBM10 (talk) 18:01, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Officer suicides

Earlier today I reverted the addition of one suicide, but I see that one remains. It could be argued that, while it may an officer's duty sometimes to put him or herself in mortal danger, it is never his or her duty to commit suicide after tbe event. It may indeed be some considerable time after the event. But what is the argeed policy here? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:46, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Which one are you talking about, that remains? --TBM10 (talk) 18:02, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Richard Haig Little, 1933. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:16, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

PC Salt

Salt was not killed "as a direct result of a crime or while attempting to prevent, stop or solve a specific criminal act." Nor was he assaulted while on surveillance duties. He died from head injuries caused by falling on a mechanical digger after getting drunk on duty. See Bassey, Amardeep: "Queen's 'Hero' cop was drunk on duty: Disgraced officer honoured in the Mall"; Sunday Mercury (Birmingham) 8 May 2005. Regarding Salt's inclusion in the roll of honour, Sir Geoffrey Dear, West Midlands Chief Constable at the time of PC Salt's death said "Technically, he was on duty albeit in unusual circumstances and he was acting in a way that was not in the best interests of the force." Three black men who were arrested and charged with his killing were eventually cleared of all charges and awarded £100,000 compensation in an out-of-court settlement with the force. The circumstances surrounding Salt's death were also raised in the House of Commons on 12 December 1991.[1] Keri (talk) 12:32, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Chinook disaster

DENNIS STANLEY BUNTING. Born ?.?.19??. Killed aged 39 in the Chinook helicopter disaster on the Mull of Kintyre, Scotland on 2 June 1994 while en route to an anti-terrorist conference. A Detective Inspector with the RUC Special Branch intelligence team. 2.26.239.34 (talk) 23:28, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Notwithstanding the fact that the list does not (yet) encompass NI officers, we don't include deaths due to non-crime related accidents. Nick Cooper (talk) 14:33, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Agree with Nick that as Bunting died in a transport accident and not in the line of duty - in the sense that he was not killed while fighting crime - this is not an appropriate place to list his death. As an aside, perhaps a separate article entitled "List of police officers killed in The Troubles in Northern Ireland" could be created. --TBM10 (talk) 19:34, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

PC Bill Barker

The list does not include PC Bill Barker of the Cumbria Police, who died in the course of duty during the 2009 Cockermouth floods. He was directing the public away from a bridge that was in danger of collapse from the force of the floodwater running under it. The bridge suddenly collapsed under him. He was swept away by the floodwater and drowned. http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/cumbria/hi/people_and_places/newsid_8378000/8378388.stm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.114.170.5 (talk) 23:34, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Bill Barker and others killed in the line of duty should be included in this list. It is It is invidious that he and others are not included. Many officers died heroically in cases where their casues of death were not crime related. This list should include all officers killed in the line of duty and rely more on official records to aid its impartiality and completeness. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fitzbrowne (talk • contribs) 10:53, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

@Fitzbrowne: "Thousands of police officers in Britain are believed to have died during the course of their duties, but this article includes only those who were killed as a direct result of a crime or while attempting to prevent, stop or solve a specific criminal act. As discussed above, the parameters for inclusion are the result of long-standing consensus, and the list would otherwise contain thousands of names. The circumstances around PC Barker's death, which was ruled accidental by the inquest jury, are instead reported at the article Barker Crossing—the bridge constructed by the Royal Engineers and named after him. Keri (t · c) 13:02, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

No disrespect, but I've removed this officer again, as the circumstances of his death - however heroic - do not fit the established inclusion criteria. The current bar is set at a clearly defined level, and including non-crime-related deaths would substantially muddy the waters. For example, there are several hundred police personnel who were killed during the Second World War, many in circumstances equally heroic as Barker. Nick Cooper (talk) 15:49, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

Manchester Arena death

It is being reported that one of the victims of the Manchester Arena bombing was a off-duty police officer. Depending on how we read the current criteria, we could either include or exclude her. In one obvious counter example, Stephen Tibble was shot dead whilst off-duty, but he was actively assisting a colleague - who he had made himself known to - at the time. It seems very unlikely that something similar happened in Manchester, although the officer was undoubtedly killed, "as a direct result of a crime." Nick Cooper (talk) 13:54, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

It is a conundrum, but remember that the article lists those killed "in the line of duty". It could be strongly argued that Stephen Tibble was carrying out his "duty" as a police officer by assisting a colleague in the pursuit, but in the Arena bombing I doubt the same could be said, as I assume the off-duty officer was killed in the explosion. As tragic as it is, I would err on the side of excluding her. --TBM10 (talk) 20:24, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I was thinking along those lines, but it's a tough call under the circumstances. Nick Cooper (talk) 19:13, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

2013 Glasgow helicopter crash

There were confirmed to be 2 PCs killed in the crash, who were two police observers, PCs Kirsty Nelis and Tony Collins. Should they be included in the List? They did get killed whilst still on Duty as police observers in the Helicopter?BSOleader (talk) 11:42, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

No, because it doesn't fit the page criteria, i.e. "a direct result of a crime or while attempting to prevent, stop or solve a specific criminal act." Nick Cooper (talk) 13:51, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

I was going to suggest that they where but in the accident report of the crash it does say that they where returning to base to refuel, if the crash had happened on route to a emergency or in pursuit of a suspect then fair enough.BSOleader (talk) 15:44, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

PC Steve Jenkins

PC Steve Jenkins has died whilst on duty on 6 october 2017, it is still unclear what the nature of the death was so please do not add it yet until it becomes clear if he did die during performing his duty as a PC. Theprussian (talk) 19:42, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

Update: Died at police station Theprussian (talk) 14:36, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

References

James Dixon

Please do not add James Dixon to this list. He died in an accident during training. Although I do think it is time for a list of police officer killed outside their line of duty, such as in accidents, suicides and attacked off duty.

Theprussian (talk) 14:34, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Added 2017 list

Adding list by year as this is what done with: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_police_officers_killed_in_the_line_of_duty

If there is a list of American Police officers killed in the line of duty, with no exceptions whether or not they died in training or as a direct result of crime then I feel that there should be a British equivalent. Especially as the British list is alot shorter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ModoSN (talk • contribs) 10:54, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

Any 2017 entries should be included in the main table, I dont see any reason why 2017 should be treated any different. Also the table you added does include a number of officers that were not killed in the line of duty so should be deleted when you move the other to the main table. MilborneOne (talk) 12:17, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

Messy category

The intro says the list does not include death by RTC but RTC deaths are in the list. Also' killed in the line of duty' in the heading - yet includes off-duty officer deaths. There needs to be some clarity from the initiator and perhaps the heading shuld be simplified and a few tables set up on the page for the different categories so that all the deaths can be recorded on the page in their respective categories.

You need to sign your messages so we know who has left comments, thanks. MilborneOne (talk) 14:30, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Seems clear to me, if you see any entries that include off-duty officers they should be removed. As far as traffic collisions there is a different treatment for those killed in traffic collisions not related to the duty being performed and those that died during persuits or criminal acts and such like that are included. MilborneOne (talk) 14:30, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Last entry (Barratt)

According to the (IMHO) arbitrary and unnecessarily restrictive criteria on this list, the last entry DC Clive Barratt of Suffolk Police should not be listed here. He was "Fatally injured in a road accident when his unmarked police motorcycle collided with a tractor whilst on surveillance duty at Lowestoft." Vehicle accidents don't count - unless it seems a suspect rams into that police vehicle according to some of the other entries.

As a fellow motorcyclist I'm loathe to delete Barratt's entry, he should rightly be remembered here, so I'd love to reach consensus on changing the criteria. Failing that, his entry should be deleted.

Does anyone else agree it needs to be changed? (see this edit to a section above from another editor today who clearly feels as strong as I do about the need for change. 10mmsocket (talk) 15:03, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

PC Andrew Harper

Speedy Deletion of the article relating to Andrew Harper's Death was unlawful and not a reasonable cause of action. For some reason, people are suggesting that you require a court ruling to determine a cause of death. Even though it is factually clear that PC Harper was killed in a vehicle-ramming attack.

Please do not interfere in such articles if you are not aware of UK Policing matters.Theprussian (talk) 21:54, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

This is not the right page to discuss other articles, if you are not happy about the deletion of Murder of Andrew Harper then you should raise it at Wikipedia:Deletion review. It may help your case if you refrain from using inappropriate terms such as "unlawful" and "Please do not interfere in such articles". MilborneOne (talk) 10:26, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

So you are basically saying there is a 'correct' language that can be used on Wikipedia? That's rather unnecessary bureaucratic nonsense. This is also rather disrespectful, suggesting that because I use a different vocabulary to describe something I am unhappy about in my own words that this is considered "Inappropriate terms". As an honest person myself I find that this is utterly ludicrous and I will continue to use language I prefer, rather than a set "Correct" language that you are suggesting.Theprussian (talk) 20:18, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

Maybe not correct language but certain standard of behaviour is required. Calling a speed deletion unlawful is not the correct "language" as it clearly not true and wikipedia is wary of "legal" language, nothing about speedy deletion is "unlawful", you may not accept it and think it is wrong but that is not unlawful. Asking other wikipedias to leave such articles alone as they are not qualified doesnt go down well, wikipedia can be edited by anybody without any specialist knowledge so please dont do it again. MilborneOne (talk) 20:36, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

Ladies and Gentleman, the bureaucracy.Theprussian (talk) 20:54, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

It's time to change this Arbritary criteria.

"but this article includes only those who were killed as a direct result of a crime or while attempting to prevent, stop or solve a specific criminal act." This is pretty Arbitrary in my view and does not cover quite a few "Line of Duty Deaths"(For example, PC Nick Dumphreys who is considered to have died in the line of duty but does not fit the criteria.), including officers killed in accidents whilst considered to be "in the line of duty". There also seems to be a lot of deaths in this article (particularly ones with roof accidents) which fails to qualify to the above article criteria.

Either: This article name needs to change and many deaths in the article need to be taken out for not fitting the criteria...

OR

The criteria should be expanded to all officers killed "in the line of duty".

Theprussian (talk) 21:23, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

When officers are murdered or killed whilst actively pursuing or arresting suspects this is much more noteworthy and encyclopaedic. That's the reason for the criteria. Without wanting to sound callous, there is nothing noteworthy about a person who dies in a car crash whilst at work: it happens to hundreds of people every day. The article is very long as it is, let alone adding dozens or even hundreds of officers who died in road accidents. The article title and criteria are perfectly fine and no changes to either are required. --TBM10 (talk) 21:35, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

I feel if we are to go with option 1 as you said, some deaths will need to be removed, many seem to fail to meet these criteria, some vaguely state "collapsed and died after x", well along with road accidents a lot of people just collapse and die then, I feel many of these need to be purged from the article as they are pretty non-notable. Particularly ones where it does not specify why this happened. If you would like me to list a few of these deaths that should be taken of I will. I'd also like to note that this article includes Civillian Explosive officers - they are not officers???Theprussian (talk) 22:10, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Bow Street Runners

Why aren't Bow Street Runners on the list? They were paid, had the same duties that most of these police officers died performing and had law enforcement as their occupation. Why aren't Charlies (London watchmen in the 1600s) on the list? I think they qualified as police officers because they were paid and their occupation was to enforce the law. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.40.176.73 (talk) 20:42, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Modern policing is reckoned to have begun with the creation of the Metropolitan Police Force. Nick Cooper (talk) 16:07, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

British Transport police (and predecessors)

British transport police are not, and have never been under Home office oversight, but they are Police in the Grate Braitan (Note not NI), and have the power to arrest and many have died as a result of violence in the line of duty... they should be included  The Emperor of Byzantium  (talk) 21:46, 08 February 2022 (UTC)

Royal Ulster Constabulary

Any death of a Northern Ireland Police Officer pre 2001 should be listed as the Royal Ulster Constabulary not the PSNI 2A02:C7F:1E3C:6700:F529:4207:312B:7578 (talk) 08:05, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

Omission

You have omitted PC Francis John MASON, shot in the back and killed on the 14th April 1988. He was a Hertfordshire officer, out walking his dog and off duty. He saw a security van being robbed and intervened. He was shot in the back and died of his wound. He is on the Police Roll of Honour. A very brave man. Phil5736 (talk) 08:34, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

This seems to have been overlooked at the time. Looking at the case, it seems very similar to the circumstances of the deaths of PC Tibble and DC Morrison, i.e. he was off-duty, but killed when actively intervening in a crime in progress. The Police Memorial Trust page states he had identified himself as a police officer before he was shot. I will therefore add Mason to the page, with a suitable reference. Nick Cooper (talk) 15:09, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

Cochran, Edwards, and Leat

My cousin Joanna Cochran died when the police car she was driving crashed while pursuing a suspect in a police pursuit - how is her death less notable than someone who "collapsed and died after x"? What is the point of a list of British Police Officers killed in the line of duty if there's an arbitrary rule that only certain police officers killed in the line of duty in only certain ways is included? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.208.76.14 (talk • contribs) 15:37, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

This may be another example of a genuine oversight due to previous lack of information, rather than a deliberate omission. Looking at this page it would seem that Cochrane, having died in an active pursuit crash, should be included. There are also a few others that may be eligible, i.e. Deborah Leat and Sandra Edwards, both of whom also died in pursuits. Nick Cooper (talk) 14:46, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

Incorrect entry

Name	Rank	Age	Force	Date of death	Circumstances
James "Dixie" Dixon	PC	44	Thames Valley Police	5 December 2017	Crashed his police motorcycle while on a training exercise also killing a 91 year-old civilian.

Is this an incorrect entry? A training exercise doesn't seem the fit the listing criteria [that I believe should be expanded) 10mmsocket (talk) 16:37, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

I don't believe it is incorrect at all. I do not agree that Police Officers who sadly die on the way to and from work in private vehicles should be included as although it could be argued that as a Police Officer you are never off duty, for me, we have to be sensible with this and travelling to and from work would not be counted as 'on duty' looking at it sensibly in terms of having to draw a distinction one way or another. However, Pc Dixon would have been 'on duty' and actually working as a Police officer at the time of this collision, so he should therefore be included in my opinion. My understanding of the incident is that he was actively, there and then on duty engaged in a training exercise for which he was rostered to work on, rather than travelling to or from. 2A00:23C6:938B:DC01:20CA:F250:968D:779 (talk) 17:51, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

I'm with you, it's just that it doesn't seem to meet the published criteria. I would also like to include the two Glasgow / Clutha Bar police helicopter crash - they were working / on-duty but were on the way back to base after standing down from a series of operations. And also the policeman killed in the Scottish Chinook crash. Travelling to/from work (i.e. while off duty) is not the same, but any death on duty should be included. 10mmsocket (talk) 20:42, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

Where is Frank oneil 2A00:23C7:D883:B901:1C61:EC86:78BE:64C7 (talk) 23:35, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

WP:JFDI! It is missing, yes. There seem to be loads of references confirming his death in service in 1980. Feel free to add it into the article with one or more of those references. 10mmsocket (talk) 06:30, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Missing from the list

Missing from the list: Sgt Brian Dawson, Leicestershire Police, 1st September 1975 aged 42. Shot by suspect firing gun into street. Two others killed at same time 2A02:C7C:8E46:9B00:FD32:D38E:D3D2:E7AB (talk) 06:36, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

As with the previous reply, if you have a reference then you are very welcome to add it to the article. 10mmsocket (talk) 06:46, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Y done. The joy of all things (talk) 10:18, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Epsom riot

Today's featured article of the Epsom riot has highlighted the death of Sergeant Thomas Green, who is absent from this page, so I will address this. Nick Cooper (talk) Nick Cooper (talk) 11:00, 24 August 2023 (UTC)