Talk:Latter Day Saint martyrs

Criticism

This commentary about the article was added to the article itself, but should have been contributed here instead, so moved. -- 208.81.184.4 (talk) 15:45, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Many members on this list are arguably not martyrs, but rather members of the LDS faith who were murdered. Only people murdered for their religious beliefs are actually martyrs. The men who participated in the Battle of Crooked River acted as members of a military in open warfare with the democratically established state of Missouri. The retaliation at Haun's Mill was motivated by the events at Crooked River, and not any religious beliefs. The alleged martyrdom of Joseph Smith and his close friends and brother were in direct consequence to Joseph Smith ordering the destruction of the Nauvoo Inquisitor, a local press investigating Joseph Smith, then Mayor of Nauvoo, for his participation in polygamy. These killings were motivated by secular, political happenings and not any religious beliefs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Narcberry (talk • contribs) 03:52, 28 October 2013‎

This is an interesting point, and it may be applicable to many martyrs from various faiths. Martyrdom may be a matter of perspective. To the believer, they died because they stood with their faith. To the skeptic, they died because of taking religious aggression, instigating political dissidence, or they put themselves in harm's way. I'm guessing it's rare for someone to be killed for their beliefs alone, without having taken some kind of public action that others deem punishable. But they might be taking such actions (Battle of Crooked River), or find themselves in such circumstances (Hawn's Mill), because of their religious allegiances. The Mormon militia at Crooked River believed they were defending God's people and his prophet and his gathering to Zion in the Last Days, otherwise they would not have died in battle. Mormons came to Hawn's Mill to follow revelations to gather and build Zion, and they were killed because they were at a settlement of a religious sect said to be in rebellion. After all the disagreements and ambiguity, do the Latter Day Saints see them as martyrs? Do they get to declare their own martyrs? To me, that's the strongest rationale, and if others disagree with their qualifications, it can be noted alongside their entry in this list. ——Rich jj (talk) 15:12, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Helmuth Hübener ?

I've gotten comments that Helmuth Hübener doesn't belong here as he had been excommunicated by his Stake President at the time of his death. Comments?

• Actually, that is not the main issue at all. Huebner was not killed for his LDS faith at all. At least not in a meaningful way, if his actions that lead to death were not supported by local Church leaders. That said, I question putting some missionaries on here. Just being killed as a missionary is not enough. One needs to show that the killing was motivated in some degree by perceptions of what missionaries were about. Accidental shootings that lead to death, or being killed in the course of a robbery don't add up. I added George P. Canova, but even in his case it is less than clear that his religion was the motive for killing.John Pack Lambert (talk) 14:04, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

And the other question is whether those from before the succession crisis should be bere along with those intermixed of the various sects. Also, Canova really needs a decent reference...Naraht (talk) 10:45, 12 August 2018 (UTC)