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Talk:La Luz del Mundo/Archive 6

< Talk:La Luz del Mundo
Latest comment: 9 years ago by Ajaxfiore in topic Heads up

FAC To-do list

Latest comment: 10 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

It would be great to get this article to Featured Article status, or at least Good Article status. I have created a To-do list of what I believe needs to be done to improve the article:

  1. Copy editing
    1. A request has been placed at Guild of Copyeditors
  2. Peer-review
    1. A request has been placed at WP:PR
  3. Incorporate sources from "Further Reading" section into the article
    1. Note: All of the info in De la Torre's works in the Further Reading section is repeated in her book, thus no incorporation is needed
  4. Address neutrality concerns in the Discrimination section, see the relevant discussion
    1. My proposal is to move some parts of this section into the rest of the article, and create a new section with what is left
  5. Use shortened footnotes, see Help:Shortened footnotes
    1. I have been doing this using the {{Sfn}} template
  6. Summary style, mainly in Controversy section
    1. It was decided that the Controversy section should be shrunk down while incorporating all points of view:
      1. Erdely and ICM
      2. La Luz del Mundo and sympathizers
      3. Academics asking for religious tolerance
    2. I also suggest renaming the section to something like LLDM vs ICM, since most of the section deals with LLDM's battle with ICM in the Mexican media. The ICM website itself lists the controversy as "La Luz del Mundo vs. Erdely and the ICM".[1]
  7. Quotes
    1. I am not sure whether the quotes used in the article are necessary, since most are easily found online
  8. Linking
    1. More links could be added for better integration with the Wikipedia project
  9. Perhaps add/replace images
    1. More images can be found at Commons:Category:La Luz del Mundo Church
    2. I was unable to find images of either of La Luz del Mundo's two leaders
  10. More information
    1. Perhaps some current events or main holidays/celebrations

Would anyone like to add anything to this list? Any comments or objections? Ajax F¡oretalk 23:39, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

I like the proyect Ajaxfiore. Good work. I have only one objection and one contribution. The outline on point 6.2 does not seem representative enough and it could be misleading. We have found now that in 1997-1998 scholars Dr. Sylvia Marcos, Dr. Paloma Escalante and Dr. Elio Masferrer did research on the sexual abuse accusations against Samuel Joaquin Flores and validated the quality of the primary sources. They published articles on the subject from that time onwards to 2004 in books, doctoral dissertations and peer-reviewed, indexed journals. They also raised concerns about human rights conditions in La Luz del Mundo, especially for women. Papers were presented also at the American Academy of Religion Annual Meeting. I have found at least three more scholars, which would put the number at six. I think that three is already significant. I am waiting to finish reading their articles to comment on their pertinence but the more I look into it, the less it looks like this controversy was restricted to Erdely or the ICM. I suggest the following changes to point 6.2 outline.
  1. Erdely and ICM
  2. La Luz del Mundo and sympathizers
  3. La Luz del Mundo and critical scholars
  4. Academics asking for religious tolerance
  5. Academics asking for investigations on Human Rights abuses in LLDM 162.211.179.244 (talk) 11:50, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
There is a discussion regarding this matter at Talk:La_Luz_del_Mundo#Reliability_of_El_abuso_sexual_como_rito_religioso; let's keep the discussion there. The consensus is that those sources do not meet weight and reliability requirements for inclusion. Ajax F¡oretalk 16:02, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Removed text

Latest comment: 10 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
  • From "Bible"; sentence fragment:

    In light of the letters and talks made by the Apostle of God.[1]

  • From "Role of Women"; off-topic for this section:

    These prayers are seen as a religious activity equal to all other activities.[2]

  • From Hermosa Provincia Temple: off-topic waffle per WP:COATRACK:

The area around the temple is known as La Hermosa Provincia (the beautiful province) and is inhabited almost exclusively by church members. In several other communities in Mexico the congregants strive to live close to each other and around the temple, leading to small neighborhoods of church members.[3]

  • From Sexual abuse accusations against leader; seems to be mostly off-topic and doesn't seem to belong in this article; maybe it should go in Instituto Cristiano de México:

Religion specialist Bernardo Barranco said the controversy between La Luz del Mundo and Erdely's Instituto Cristiano de México seemed like a religious war "that was very well exploited by the media in their fierce struggle for ratings."[4] According to Barranco, there were many doubts about the sexual accusations and the academic character of Erdely's group.[5] Due to a lack of information and a rigorous treatment of the case, it was the media that judged the permissibility of the religious organization. This, according to Barranco, "creates a precedent that is downright dangerous, because the media are the least qualified to do it."[6]

Catholic prelate Girolamo Prigione demanded that truth be sought without making false accusations since "it is very easy to falsely accuse, slander, or defame", which Prigione believes is also a crime.[7]

Journalist Gastón Pardo said that the Instituto Cristiano de México is a sect that in 1997 launched a smear campaign in the media against various religious leaders, trying to discredit them with the systematic use of defamation and slander.[8]

Cheers, Baffle gab1978 (talk) 23:57, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Ávila Meléndez 2008, p. 179.
  2. ^ Fortuny 2001, p. 139.
  3. ^ Nutini 2000, pp. 39–54.
  4. ^ Barranco, Bernardo (29 December 1997). "Balance religioso en 1997". La Jornada. Retrieved 12 January 2013. La polémica, nacida a raíz del suicidio colectivo de la secta La Puerta del Cielo, tiene tintes de guerra religiosa muy bien aprovechada por los medios en su voraz lucha por el rating.
  5. ^ Barranco, Bernardo (29 December 1997). "Balance religioso en 1997". La Jornada. Retrieved 12 January 2013.
  6. ^ Barranco, Bernardo (29 December 1997). "Balance religioso en 1997". La Jornada. Retrieved 12 January 2013. Lamentablemente el diferendo se ha prolongado y se ha dejado, y a falta de información y de tratamiento riguroso del caso, han sido los medios los que juzguen, en los hechos, la permisibilidad de la asociación religiosa. Esto crea un precedente francamente peligroso, pues los medios son los menos calificados para hacerlo.
  7. ^ Guerrero Chiprés, Salvador (20 May 1997). "Prigione: en Guadalajara, el blanco "quizás era yo, no Posadas"". La Jornada. Retrieved 12 January 2013. Que se busque la verdad, sin acusar falsamente; es muy fácil acusar falsamente o calumniar o difamar; creo que es un crimen también.
  8. ^ Pardo, Gastón (13 August 2005). "Los responsables están avalados por el gobierno". Voltaire Network. Retrieved 12 January 2013. A lo largo de 1997, una secta denominada Instituto Cristiano de México lanzó ataques en los medios informativos en contra de líderes religiosos, a quienes intentó desacreditar con el empleo sistemático de difamaciones y calumnias.

The First Name of This Church's Apostle and Current Director is Missing in Key Sentences

Latest comment: 10 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion

Spanish naming customs place the first or given name(s) first, followed by the paternal family name and the maternal family name at last.

The church's current Director is Samuel Joaquín Flores. Samuel is his first name, Joaquín is the paternal last name and Flores is the maternal last name.

In many parts, the article omits his first name (Samuel), and identifies him only as "Joaquín Flores". That happens even in key sentences like this:

"The head of the church is Joaquín Flores, who holds both the spiritual authority as Apostle and Servant of God and the organizational authority as General Director of the Church."

If read as a separate section, it can easily be interpreted that the Director is a person named Joaquin with a paternal last name Flores. It is confusing.

Joaquin is a very common first name in Spanish. Much more common than used as a last name.

The editors of the article can improve it by using the full legal name "Samuel Joaquín Flores", that includes the first name, and using very sparingly, if at all, the shortened and awkward construction "Joaquín Flores". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.53.157.171 (talk) 10:01, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

MOS:NAMES does support that usage when a last name would clash with a title or the like. The examples given there were Lord and Moses. Do other editors feel that the last name is misinterpretable? —C.Fred (talk) 17:27, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
I have tried to address the problem by using only the maternal surnames and adding a note a the top of the article for clarification. Further input is welcome. Ajaxfioretalk 01:36, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

GA Review

Latest comment: 10 years ago44 comments2 people in discussion
GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:La Luz del Mundo/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: ComputerJA (talk · contribs) 18:13, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Review

Hello. I'll gladly take this article. I'll take about 1-4 days to finish my review and will give you a week after I'm done to finish up my concerns. Thanks in advance for your work on this one. ¡Felices fiestas! ComputerJA (☎ • ✎) 18:13, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

The article is well-written, comprehensive, and well-sourced. All major aspects seem to be covered in the article, and there are not any signs of neutrality violations. Below are some of my concerns before the article passes. This is my first part of the review; I will be reviewing sources individually and checking for copyright violations/accuracy, so stay tuned for more! Thanks. ComputerJA (☎ • ✎) 22:47, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Introduction
  • The church was founded in Guadalajara in 1926. – In my opinion, more should be explained about this period. The Cristero War and the administration of Plutarco Elías Calles are pivotal during this time. Mention the role of the Church in this decade.
  • Reply: I don't quite understand what is being asked. The Church did not really play a "role" during this time, it was merely trying to survive antagonism from the anti-clerical government and Catholic rebels. Ajaxfiore (talk) 18:16, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
Sorry for not being clearer. In other words, my suggestion was only for you to consider summarizing a bit more on the intro regarding the Cristero War, the Calles' administration, and on the political/religious climate of that time. ComputerJA (☎ • ✎) 18:21, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for the clarification. I will need some time to refresh my memory and will now take a break. Ajaxfiore (talk) 18:26, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
  • Done.
  • Great, all the updates look good. My only (small) concern is that the update about Flaviano Amatulli Valente's observation in the intro is not found anywhere else in the article, and thereby violates the requirements of WP:LEAD. All the information on the intro has to be a summary of the article and has to be cited elsewhere. Aside from that, everything looks good to go. ComputerJA (☎ • ✎) 03:28, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Done. Sentence removed. Ajaxfiore (talk) 13:20, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
  • In the final paragraphs, you should probably add its possible number of adherents and presence in the world.
  • Done. Added sentence stating lower and upper bounds. Ajaxfiore (talk) 15:54, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
Background
  • the Church said that God changed Joaquín González's name from Eusebio to Aarón via a vision – This sentence implies that God had a vision. Please rephrase to indicate that the Church had a vision that God decided to change the preacher's name.
  • Done. Reworded.
Aarón Joaquín González early ministry
  • During these early years – When?
  • Done. Late 1920s per source. Ajaxfiore (talk) 03:29, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
  • Later he charged the first minister to take care of 14 congregations in Ameca, Jalisco. – I would suggest changing take care to oversee.
  • In 1934, a temple was acquired – Was built?
  • Done. Temple was built. Ajaxfiore (talk) 04:14, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
  • Joaquín González claimed to have received word from God – Simplify to God's word.
  • In 1939, it moved to a new meeting place at the 12 de Octubre colony – Should 12 de Octubre colony be linked? If you think an article can be created about that, I guess its fine to leave it as a redlink. But I have my doubts. You know more than me, though, so I will leave it up to you.
  • Done. Link has been removed. 12 de Octubre is a street in the San Antonio neighborhood of southeast Guadalajara (Sector Reforma). Ajaxfiore (talk) 04:04, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
Schism of 1942
  • Some of the accusations were aimed at close down a temple that LLDM used with government permission – At → to.
  • This schism was followed by a new baptism – Do you have any information on what this means?
  • Done. Added info on baptisms.
Hermosa Provincia
  • The land was then sold at reduced prices to members – to its members.
  • Roger S. Greenway says that Hermosa Provincia – Who is that guy?
  • Done. Theologian, earliest source on the church. His name was removed as there is no need for direct attribution. Ajaxfiore (talk) 15:41, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
  • Question: Was it referred to as La Hermosa Provincia or la Hermosa Provincia?
  • Reply: Most sources refer to it as colonia Hermosa Provincia. Ajaxfiore (talk) 04:04, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
Samuel Joaquín Flores' ministry
  • There needs to be consistency on either La Hermosa Provincia or Hermosa Provincia.
  • Done. Hermosa Provincia is used. Ajaxfiore (talk) 04:04, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
  • Patricia Fortuny says that the church's growth – Who is she?
  • Done. Anthropologist and leading expert on the Church. Ajaxfiore (talk) 15:41, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
  • the church's growth can be attributed to factors including its social benefits – Factors → several factors, including its social benefits …
Worship
  • women must cover their heads during services – Does the source specify with what? Perhaps a veil.
  • Done.
  • worship feature no images, saints, crosses or anything else that it considers objects of worship – If you want, you can change considers objects of worship to considers idolatry, or maybe linking considers objects of worship.
  • Done. Reworded.
  • The church has three daily prayer meetings throughout the world – Has → holds.
  • both sexes recite from the bible or sing hymns – Bible should be capitalized per other usages in the same paragraph.
  • recited and voluntary offerings and given – And → are.
  • The 9:00 a.m. prayer was started by Joaquín González's wife, Elisa Flores – Was → was originally started.
Bible
  • Ministers believe it is their duty to take care that talks do not deviate – Though appropriate, take care does not really sound right here. Perhaps you might consider changing it to something different.
  • Done. Source corrected. Reworded.
Salvation
  • La Luz del Mundo teaches that there was no salvation on earth – Earth is capitalized.
Christology
  • Other sources say La Luz del Mundo is nontrinitarian[60][61] – Period needed before sources.
Role of women
  • Patricia Fortuny said, concerning the 9 a.m. prayer – Who is she?
  • Done. Anthropologist and leading expert on the Church. Ajaxfiore (talk) 15:41, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
  • and because the Bible states that men and women should not dress the same – This is an incomplete sentence. Consider merging it with the one before it.
  • Done. Sentence fragment was removed.
  • A Deaconess can help Pastors and Deacons – They should not be capitalized.
Potential mass suicide
  • Jorge Erdely Graham accused the church of being a "destructive sect" – Who is he?
  • Done. Mentioned at the top. Anti-cult activist and leader of the Instituto Cristiano de Mexico. Ajaxfiore (talk) 15:41, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
  • According to Gordon Melton and David Bromley – Likewise. See above.
  • Done. Religious scholars specializing in New Religious Movements. Ajaxfiore (talk) 15:47, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
Sexual abuses against leader
  • According to the L.A. Times, days after his accusations – It should be Los Angeles Times
Wildlife refuge
  • Vapsi Coronado – Who is this person?
  • Done. Changed to ranch foreman. Ajaxfiore (talk) 15:09, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
Comments for the entire article
  • When you're talking about La Luz del Mundo, the pronouns should be capitalized when calling it "the Church". As far as I know, "the church" refers to the building, while "the Church" refers to the congregation or religion as a whole.
  • Done. Now "temple" refers to the building, "the Church" to the organization as a whole. Ajaxfiore (talk) 15:27, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
  • In the article, "Joaquín González" should be cut to "González" and "Samuel Flores" to "Flores", since we already know you are referring to.
  • Done. Also added hatnote on Spanish naming customs so unfamiliar readers don't assume Joaquín is the middle name. Ajaxfiore (talk) 03:29, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
  • Article passes! Congratulations for the great job and for sticking through the process. ComputerJA (☎ • ✎) 02:34, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Review: Part 2

  • Source 9 needs to say it's a Spanish-language source. Add the | language = Spanish | portion to the source template.
  • Source 28 seems to be incomplete. Does it lack the exact page in the encyclopedia?
  • Reply: Membership figures are taken from the World Christian Database. I have added the url to the search results. Note that a subscription is needed to access the data.
  • The colony became a standard model for the church which has replicated it in many cities in Mexico and other countries.[citation needed] – There is a citation needed template.
  • Done. Source added.
  • There is no dancing or clapping – Not found in the source. Might have misread it but I could not find it.
  • Done. Source added. Ajaxfiore (talk) 16:36, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
  • Source 52 should have the Spanish language indication as mentioned above (i.e. | language = Spanish | )
  • Likewise for source 6, 55, 56, 62, 79, 80, 84, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 98, 101, 102, 104, 108, 110, 111, 112, 113, 115, 116, 118, 119, 126, 127, 130, 131, 132,
  • For the references and further readings, please add the Spanish-language templates too.
  • women in the church are considered equal to men in social spheres and have equal capacities for obtaining higher education, social careers, and other goals that may interest them.[citation needed] – Citation needed template needs to be addressed.
  • … The lowest rank within the ministerial hierarchy is that of "Worker", which confers responsibility for assisting everyone above them in the hierarchy with menial tasks.[citation needed] – Citation needed template needs to be addressed.
  • The ranch was divided into two; one part was private and the other was nonprofit. The nonprofit part operates as an animal and wildlife refuge – The provided is only a balance sheet. I did not find any indication that the ranch was divided into two.
  • Done. This is mentioned in the Bensman article. Added the source.

Wording

Latest comment: 10 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

RidjalA has tried putting a negative spin on the controversy section. I would like to discuss RidjalA's recent edits.[2]

Use of the word Victims

RidjalA claims that

  • "The source refers to them as "victims", not dissidents."
  • "The source (LA TIMES) states that there were "several attacks", and refers to the victims as "victims". To call them dissidents would be hypothetical, since the accusers might have still belonged to the Church at the time of their accusations."

In every occasion the source refers to them as "former members". The word "victims" is only used twice in the three page article, and in both cases the word is used within indirect quotations. If we are to follow the source, we should use "former members", or "dissidents" to paraphrase. Moreover, the word "victims" would violate BLP as it would indicate the accused is guilty, while policies state that a person accused of a crime is "presumed innocent until proven guilty and convicted by a court of law". I should note that RidjalA itself used the word "dissidents" as opposed to "victims" in this edit.[3]

Timing

The controversies mentioned in the article all began in the late 1990s, yet RidjalA prefers to use an unnecessarily pithy title saying simply "Controversy". It would be best to include a time-frame for the controversial events.

Wealth

The recent edits tacitly imply that the Joaquin family has been amassing wealth from church members, while the article states that it is all funded at private expense. The article should not be concerned with how the family chooses to live and spend their private earnings.

Sources

The sources RidjalA keeps introducing were kept out by consensus. Ajaxfiore (talk) 17:36, 5 March 2014 (UTC)


Re:

Please lets be civil; this is about the LLDM page, and not about me. So please lets proceed to discuss the content while keeping the mentioning of any editors' names to a minimum.

Use of the word "Victim"
  • "Authorities are investigating the attack and several others that have been reported. But judicial authorities say the victims haven't been fully cooperative." LA Times

I don't disagree that the term "Dissidents" was used earlier in the source. What I am saying is that the source uses "victim" only for those people who were attacked. It is not used in any way on Wikipedia to lay blame on anyone. It is used to make the distinction from those who were simply dissidents, to those were attacked. The source makes no mention that these victims were dissidents. It would be hypothetical in fact if we were to say that those whom were attacked were dissidents, since the attacked may have still belonged to the church (how are we sure that they weren't just relatives of dissidents?). So I would suggest that the safest way to go about it is to keep things as they are sourced.

Wealth
  • "Federal tax records show the nonprofit has accumulated upwards of $1 million since 2004. Much of this money comes from church collections taken weekly and annually from the faithful in Texas, Castillo said." Todd Bensman

Your argument is false. The source talks precisely about how the Joaquin Flores family lives in luxury as a result of the money collected from his followers, and that is grounds for it being in the controversy section.

Sources

If we intend to turn this into a fully comprehensive page about LLDM, then brushing the controversies surrounding this sect under the carpet would be a grave disservice to readers. As with the Catholic Church controversies, if the media reports them and independent case studies corroborate with those reports, then there is no valid reason to discredit their work. The same applies to LLDM (especially Jorge Erdely and Lourdes Arguelles' work). ~Best, RidjalA (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 20:57, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

Again, the word victim lays blame on the accused violating BLP. You are identifying the victims prematurely, for all we know the Joaquins could be victims of a defamation campaign. I have replaced "dissidents" with "former members" per LA Times.
Read the sentence again and note the word nonprofit. As the article clearly states, the property was divided into a nonprofit and a private section. The article also states that the family does not live there.
The controversy section is already comprehensive and makes up a substantial portion of the article. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of every minute controversy surrounding a religious group. If you want to include a source that was deemed unreliable by consensus, the burden of proof falls on you. Ajaxfiore (talk) 22:48, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

Samuel Joaquín Flores

Latest comment: 9 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

He died today. [4] ComputerJA (☎ • ✎) 17:15, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

Heads up

Latest comment: 9 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I will be actively editing this article for the next month or so. I hope to bring it up to Featured Article status. I will combine and rewrite the Controversy and Discrimination sections as the stories contained therein can be interpreted as controversy or discrimination depending on where you stand. It will be up to the reader to decide. Per WP:UNDUE, the Silver Wolf section will be removed. Any help is greatly appreciated. Ajaxfiore (talk) 05:08, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

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