Talk:Kyoto Protocol/Archive 6

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NPOV nuclear energy in France

Current positions of governments: France

"In 2004, France shut down its last coal mine, and now gets 80% of its electricity from nuclear power.[56] Because of this, France now has the cleanest air of any industrialized country, and the cheapest electricity bills in all of Europe.[57] Under various assumptions, including the use of breeder technology, the earth has enough uranium to provide all of the world's energy needs until the sun blows up in 5 billion years."

This section implies nuclear energy is both cheap and clean, this is certainly not NPOV because both the cleanness and the economics of nuclear power are highly controversial (see Wikipedia article on nuclear power). However it would be NPOV to say that France's reliance on nuclear power for electricity production is one reason why it relatively low emissions of CO2. I don't see how the sentence about uranium resources has any relevance to the French government's position on the Kyoto Protocol and should be taken out. 82.35.64.184 20:34, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you... and the fact is that France HAS NOT "the cleanest air of any industrialized country". As we are talking about GHG, we should take this list into account: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/env_co2_emi_percap-environment-co2-emissions-per-capita Switzerland and Sweden have lower emissions, just the same way some other countries that are quite developed (Lith., and other). -- 83.37.98.45 20:16, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

A side point -- a more accurate list may be found right here on wikipedia see List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions_per_capita Furthermore, data valid through 2006 may be found at The EPA SunSw0rd (talk) 15:30, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

What do they call that? A red herring? Per capita values dont mean much, especially in countries like the Philippines where there are factories all over cranking out insane amounts of stuff - and have unknown millions of people in the cities, so of course the 'per capita' number is low. There does not exist anywhere, in all of Europe or the USA, a slum or city on the scale of Manila. Its irritation to think that the people making decisions about this are using data that has no relevance.

Total output and the concentration per world region, thats the only real figure of value. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.49.209.35 (talk) 11:37, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Summary style

The article might benefit from use of summary style. Has it been considered? Richard001 11:40, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

the word 'target', does not appear in the (English) text of the treaty

the word target, often used by the press, is substituted for obligation/limitation, for unknown motives. Non-annex-one countries, such as Nicaragua, --> no limitation, therefore, no target. For Annex-one countries, such as Canada, have a limitation, synonomous with obligation, NOT a goal or target. CorvetteZ51 07:39, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

...And your point is? It seems pretty obvious that if a government is obliged by international treaty to achieve certain levels of emission (or other thing), that these things become the minimum levels of compliance in accordance to their obligations. If you are attempting to achieve these levels, then that becomes a "target" for government policymaking. There is nothing inconsistent with calling these obligatory levels 'targets', but it does definately take fewer words and letters; thus useful for (particularly print) media. What is there to gain by your comment? 220.235.138.202 11:06, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

GHG Emissions since 1990

Should the article list emission with or without LULUCF? For the Kyoto Protocol, LULUCF should be taken into account! -- 83.37.98.45 20:30, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

LULUCF needs to be discussed. LULUCF, in the case of Austalia, considers the cessation of land clearance, as an allowance to pollute more. By the treaty, Aus gets a 8 percent increase. But because Australia has reduced land clearance from its 1990 pace, Aus is allowed to pollute 25% for its 'normal sources'. CorvetteZ51 13:40, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Confusing

"Although the UK's overall greenhouse gas emissions have fallen, annual net carbon dioxide emissions have risen by around 2% since The Labour Party came to power in 1997." This seems confusing to me. Can anyone clarify what it is trying to say? Brusegadi 02:39, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Also, the GHG emissions have fallen since when? --Dpaulat (talk) 14:17, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

In this context it would refer to the baseline year, which is 1990 for the UK. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 15:40, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

There are scheduled greenhouse gasses other than carbon dioxide,so it is possible (but I am not saying, it is the case that) the total, and CO2 separately, could go in different directions. CorvetteZ51 (talk) 08:16, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Number of countries?

The text says:

As of June 2007, 175 Parties have ratified the Protocol. Of these, 36 countries and the EEC are required to reduce greenhouse gas emissions below levels specified for each of them in the treaty (representing over 61.6% of emissions from Annex I countries). Notable exceptions include the United States and Australia. One hundred thirty seven countries (137) have ratified the protocol, but have no obligation beyond monitoring and reporting emissions.

Just a minor thing...36+137=173, not 175.

58.111.105.30 09:34, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I have another comment on this. $<math>Insertformulahere$</math>In the Description section the article says:

The Kyoto Protocol now covers more than 170 countries globally and more than 60% of countries in terms of global greenhouse gas emissions.

And then later in the Status of the agreement one can read:

As of November 2007, a total of 175 countries and other governmental entities have ratified the agreement (representing over 61.6% of emissions from Annex I countries).[11][12]

So, which one is correct? Or can both of them be true? I find it a little confusing.

Oleg326756 (talk) 22:05, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I updated the total number from 180 and 181 to 178 near the very top (and sourced from the UNFCCC website) as well as the info box. The number of developed and developing countries still need changed; I did not touch that as I don't know where the accuracy/sourcing comes from. Maybe something to source! :) --Dpaulat (talk) 14:44, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Well that figure is wrong. Its 181 countries +1 regional economic integration organization (EU) [1]. I'm updating the old PDF to the new May 2008 one. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 15:55, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Outdated references on official websites are awesome. I went ahead and I moved my undocumented 178 back to 181 + 1. --Dpaulat (talk) 16:58, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

A treaty is either ratified or not - there should be no special category "hope to ratify"

fourth paragraph: Inconsistent with seventh paragraph which mentions Kazakhstan as well as the US and Australia not to have ratified.

172 parties have ratified the protocol. Of these, 36 countries (plus the EU as a party in its own right) are required to reduce greenhouse gas emissions to the levels specified for each of them in the treaty (representing over 61.6% of emissions from Annex I countries) [2] [3], with three more countries intending to participate[4]. Notable exceptions include the United States and Australia. One hundred thirty seven (137) countries have ratified the protocol, but have no obligation beyond monitoring and reporting emissions.

seventh paragraph: Inconsistent with fourth paragraph which mentions Australia as well not to have ratified.

The Kyoto Protocol now covers more than 170 countries globally and more than 60% of countries in terms of global greenhouse gas emissions. As of November 2007, the US, and Kazakhstan are the only signatory nations, not to have ratified the act. This treaty expires in 2012, and international talks began in May 2007 on a future treaty to succeed the current one.[5]

Image - Status of the Agreement: A country either has or has not ratified the protocol. There should be no difference other than that. What exactly does 'hope to ratify it' mean? It is ridiculous and meaningless. How can this possibly be a separate category other than presumably to put both Australia and Kazakhstan in a better light in contrast to the red of the US which clearly stands alone?

Participation in the Kyoto Protocol: dark green indicates countries that have signed and ratified the treaty, yellow indicates those that have signed and hope to ratify it, and red indicates those that have signed but not ratified it.

Smurf1812 (talk) 04:04, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

The current caption is even worse. The US is a signatory and should not be red ("those that neither signed nor ratified the treaty") Andareed 22:09, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Australia ratified the Kyoto Protocol on December 3rd, 2007

Australia's new prime minister, Kevin Rudd, signed the instrument of ratification of the Kyoto Protocol as one of his first acts as Prime Minister.

cf: http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/12/03/2108345.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.170.161.135 (talk) 07:55, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Remark about the Australian Constitution

"According to the Constitution of Australia,[25] environmental matters are under the jurisdiction of the States, and the NETS is intended to facilitate ratification of the Kyoto Protocol by the incoming Labor Government." What is the purpose of this comment? Those areas not under s51 or s52 of the Australian Constitution, such as Education, Health and the Environment, come under the State's residual powers. However, as the Tasmanian Dams case clearly demonstrated, the External Affairs power of the Commonwealth permits that an international treaty to which the Commonwealth has signed (and is thus obliged to uphold) can overrule the State's residual powers. Thus, mentioning NETS under the Australian Constitution doesnt make sense and appears to be factually wrong. So, why is it included? 220.235.138.202 11:06, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

NPOV: Colors In Image, Incorrect Understanding of U.S. Procedure

'The colors used are highly biased and suggest a disposition toward ratification and acceptance of the terms of the Kyoto Protocol. Neutral colors, or tones of one color should be used.

Also, a representative of the United States government signed, but it was never submitted for ratification. That does not mean the U.S. Congress declined ratification. Rather, they were never given the opportunity. This would suggest a "Pending" status. Furthermore, the U.S. Congress outlined what should be included to hasten ratification.

To have such a biased graphic in support of a document that is clearly itself biased (it requires no obligation of most of its signatories, and "differentiated" requirements of States such as China, India) is grossly misrepresentative and very un-Wikipedia. At the least, a comparative graphic showing the requirements placed on States by the document would be informative and telling.

To negatively and falsely isolate without context, one nation that has not ratified is absurd.Please make the changes or delete the file. I posted this on the particular image's talk page as well, but this appears to be a better forum. (67.106.135.226 16:25, 4 December 2007 (UTC))

Thanks for raising your concerns here. However, if this was, say, an article was on "left-handedness", would you not agree that colours showing a disposition towards the topic of the article was be logicial?

I think you need to reread the US sub-section, as it never states that Congress actually declined ratification. To claim a "Pending" status would imply that the Pres. will submit it, and that Congress will agree to its ratification - at best this would be double guessing both parties, at worst, very POV, and un-wiki. Previous US governments were active in the development of the protocol with its explicitly "common but differentiated responsibility" principle at its core, although the current President has, on many occasions, clearly indicated that he does not agree with it and will not recommend it to Congress for ratification. (Saying that he approves of the protocol but not its core principles is a funny way of showing support.) Congress has also traditionally been hostile, even while the federal govt was negotiating the protocol. This is stated - at length and somewhat more delicately - within the article under its rather large section on the USA.

To compare with the situation in Kazakhstan, the government there is actively and genuinely committed, and is pursuing steps to join in. In fact, they would already have done so if they could have overcome some technical legal hurdles earlier. You could realistically describe them as "Pending" or, better still, "pursuing ratification" as their intentions are clear.

The List of Kyoto Protocol signatories does illuminate this, and you may find it interesting to read the section on Annex I countries, as these have the most onerous requirements. Incidentally, these Annex I parties must use the carbon trading systems first mooted by the US negotiators. Ephebi 17:30, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I thought it was sent to congress and then it got its ass kicked...! Brusegadi (talk) 08:33, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

No, but the Senate passed a preemptory resolution against it. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 08:42, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

In fact the United States Senate passes a "Sense of the Senate" resolution by 95 to zero that "the United States should not be a signatory to any protocol to, or other agreement regarding, the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change of 1992, at negotiations in Kyoto in December 1997, or thereafter..."

Basic reasoning was that the Senate would not sign unless developing countries were subject to the same conditions AND that the treaty should not result "in serious harm to the economy of the United States". So anytime anyone hears politicians blaming the US not signing the Kyoto treaty on Bush -- the simple fact is that the US Senate informed the President (Bill Clinton at that time) that there was no way they were ratifying the Kyoto treaty as written -- by a 95-0 vote. SunSw0rd (talk) 15:38, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

the EU ETS is completely separate from Kyoto

Please post any evidence to the contrary. CorvetteZ51 (talk) 00:07, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

• Like any stock market, there are two parts to the trading mechanism - the market process, and the settlement process. The spot, futures & options markets systems operate independent of the ETS & Kyoto settlement systems, other than their contracts, which are compatible. But post-trade, the "settlement" systems are run by government bodies and are what enforce the Kyoto-ness on everything. Most market players don't need to be aware of this unless there is a problem somewhere.
• operators in Phase I are allowed to access CERs during this period, and the CDM executive has been busy approving lots of CDM projects for the last year or two for them. For concrete proof of how interlinked they are, the EC recently announced it has problems linking into the UN before the March 2008 CDM deadline for 2007 delivery. The market got the jitters and EUA prices jumped about 10% in an hour [2] That proof represents about $4bn that industry will have to find.
• Phase II of will, of course, totally run under Kyoto mechanisms Ephebi (talk) 01:54, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

OK, so what is the connection between Kyoto and the ETS, other than ETS will accept Kyoto credits? It certainly does not work the other way. Keep in mind that if the EU makes its own goal, that hasnothing to with the EU meeting its Kyoto obligation.CorvetteZ51 (talk) 02:57, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

• Don't understand what what you mean about "the other way", as CERs only have a value when monetised in Annex I countries' trading system. The legal relationship of course differs between Phase I & II, although, as indicated above, neither Phase would look like this without Kyoto. Ref Annex I, the EU and EU member states must each meet individual national 5-year treaty commitments during Phase II/Kyoto commitment period (although they can exceed their UNFCCC target if they wish, while implementing their own policies for non-industrial sources). However, a fundamental principle is that each EAU = AAU = CER = ERU and so everything in the EU system has to be at least compatible or more restrictive. Otehrwise we would end up with incompatible markets. Compare this to, say, the RGGI scheme, which I hope we will agree is independent & incompatible. Their allocations are not within a framework of Kyoto as no targets were set at US state level. They also only address power generation so the demand for allowances is incompatible. Their measurement is for short tons & hence there measure are 9% less than an AAU, if they were to measure at the same point (which I'm not sure that they are). Thus, even if hypothetically it was legally possible, one RGGI units would not be tradable against an AAU/CER without some degree of conversion and arbitrage. The EU ETS system has addressed this by aligning itself tightly to Kyoto. Also see your talk page.
• PS I noted that this link the EU will meet its target by distributing different rates among its member state has been interpreted here in the past to mean that the EU's executive body has had the legal ability to readjust national commitments. This is a misreading of the text, it just means that there is an average across the EU but different value have been negotiated by the member states under the UNFCCC. Note the EU cannot (re)negotiate international treaties on behalf of its member states (though this may change as/when the EU constitution/treaty gets ratified). Ephebi (talk) 12:53, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Included column with LULUCF

I have added a column to the table of change in national emissions, so that the changes with and without LULUCF can be seen. I felt this is relevant, given that the accounting mechanism will ultimately make allowance for LULUCF.Ordinary Person (talk) 02:11, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Where did you get the data for the "with LULUCF" column? The figure for the USA can't be right. American LULUCF is a net sink. Vinny Burgoo (talk) 12:43, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Wall St Journal editorial claiming "proof" of failure of Kyoto mechanism

I removed this text: Further complicating the debate over the Kyoto Protocol is the fact that CO₂ emissions growth in the US was far ahead of that of the EU-15 from 1990-2000, but from 2000-2004, America's rate of growth in CO₂ emissions was eight percentage points lower than from 1995-2000, while the EU-15 saw an increase of 2.3 points. From 2000-2004, the United States' CO₂ emissions growth rate was 2.1%, compared to the EU-15's 4.5%. That happened while the US economy was expanding 38% faster than the economies of the EU-15 while experiencing population growth at twice the rate of the EU-15. This naturally has led to questions and debate about the merits of a mandatory emissions cap approach (as currently adopted under Kyoto) versus a voluntary approach to emissions reduction (as adopted by the United States).

I did so reluctantly because:

• this editorial opinion criticises the Kyoto mechanisms set down by emissions data before a) the Kyoto protocol has come into force & b) before the EU-ETS mandatory trading scheme has come into place. It key tenet - that the EU's trading mechanism is poor because EU emissions caps were poorly set - has no relationship to the agreed quotas mandated under Kyoto which will come into force next year (2008).
• if this is a valid criticism, then the EU ETS article is the place for it
• The general issue of philosophical disagreement with the approach (which is what I understand this opinion to be) is already covered elsewhere in the article.

I noted the reference to the editorial Europe v. America on CO2 Wall Street Journal is subscription only - a partial transcript is here. Ephebi (talk) 13:04, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

IPCC predictions

"The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) has predicted an average global rise in temperature of 1.4°C (2.5°F) to 5.8 °C (10.4°F) between 1990 and 2100)."

These are the predictions from the Third Assessment Report. The Fourth Assessment Report predicts a rise "between 1.1 and 6.4 °C (2.0 and 11.5 °F) during the 21st century" (according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intergovernmental_Panel_on_Climate_Change). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Simonbc (talk • contribs) 11:24, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Opening Sentence

The opening sentence, "The Kyoto Protocol is a protocol to the international Framework Convention on Climate Change with the objective of reducing Greenhouse gases that cause climate change", sounds gramatically odd. It's the "a protocal to" that sounds funny. Should'nt it be "protocal from" or something like that? 167.102.224.45 (talk) 18:27, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

• grammatically, its fine - protocols are added to treaties (or to the convention, in this case). Ephebi (talk) 21:47, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Annex I and ratification?

The article (particularly the 'description section') appears to say that Annex I countries are all bound to targets, however this is not the case as the US have not ratified the protocol, but are an Annex I country ([3]). I think this needs to be portrayed in the article as it got me rather confused. Niel.bowerman (talk) 15:41, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

True. Any nation that refuses to sign (ratify) or withdraw from the treaty is not bound by its rules. Only when having ratified the protocol, including consequences of non-conpliance, can a nation be penalized for its behaviour by a designated authority. However, this is a general feature of international treaties, and reference to it in this article would best be done by linking to a page on this topic at most, for instance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty#Withdrawal Seems about right? (Jorritg (talk) 23:05, 6 May 2008 (UTC))

Table is inconsistent with cited source

Citation no. 94 does not support the values in the table! First column: Denmark is listed as reducing emissions by 19%. UN claims 1.1%. Quite a big difference. I don't believe that UN values are per-year. Some numbers do match, some are made up or wrongly sourced (Norway is wrong too, but Germany is correct, for example). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.2.208.69 (talk) 18:20, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Other concerns

This is a great article, but it really doesn't address some of the Constitutional concerns that the U.S. has concerning Kyoto. Article VI of the United States Constitution makes it clear that the Constitution is the Supreme Law of the Land. Nothing can legally contradict or overrule it--not an act of Congress, not an Executive Order, not a Judicial Ruling, not a state law, and not the Bible or any other Holy Book. Furthermore, and this is little understood, treaties made with foreign governments and ratified as provided in the United States Constitution are second only to the Constitution itself as the supreme law of the land. Thus, to the extent that any Federal or state statue, regulation, or judicial ruling conflicts with a legally ratified international treaty, the treaty takes precedence and the conflicting law is invalid.

'supreme' trumps 'state' law. just another federal law.CorvetteZ51 (talk) 13:15, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I think this needs to be better addressed in the article. Thoughts? Supertheman (talk) 08:17, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

What exactly are you talking about here? The Kyoto protocol doesn't have any requirements that makes it any more different than any other international agreement. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 08:41, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Is the first statement meant to explain the notion that the U.S. will not accept any non-US authority as supreme over the national authority? If so, its been desribed in a complicated manner. If reference be made to it in this article, then perhaps better by a link to a general page to this more often voiced stance of the U.S., f.i. with the case of jurisdiction of the international court of justice, amongst others. Right? (Jorritg (talk) 23:25, 6 May 2008 (UTC))

Check citations

Citation no. 62 is obsolete, in that the server it is stored on has moved it... can someone check this pls? 81.166.40.97 (talk) 22:15, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Ridiculous!

According to this, Latvia has reduced its GHG emissions by 165% from 1990 levels. How have they achieved this miracle? --Devilinhell (talk) 11:59, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

If noone can come up with a reason, why this graph should be used, I recommend to take it down. Especially so because the user who made this graph seems to have been a puppet.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Asdirk (talk • contribs) 07:52, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Section "Support", Canada

Those two sentences are false in Canada AFAIK. The minority Conservative goverment doesn't support the protocol and the opposition passed a bill to comply with the treaty :

No country has passed national legislation requiring compliance with their treaty obligation. The governments of all of the countries whose parliaments have ratified the Protocol are supporting it.

I think we should simply remove this part.zorxd (talk)

20:09, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

More Confusing:

The only talk of who-pays-what-to-whom was in the enforcement section--And this was not direct, quantitative, or explanatory. For those not familiar with the US Constitution, we cannot be subject to any other government, group, or person--Only to our Constitution. This, obviously, prohibits payment of taxes, however verbally defined, to any supposed governmental body outside of the United States.

Is this the reason for the monetary vaguery? How about the meat and potatoes for the main course in all of our political topics? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.117.234.238 (talk) 09:49, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I fail to see what you are driving at. There is no tax requirement in the Kyoto protocol, and no part about being subject to anyone (governmental or other). --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 19:38, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Greenhouse gases causing climate change

This is in regards to the three times and counting this page has been changed (possibly considered vandalism?) today on this topic. To clear things up, to my understanding - coming from as an unbiased standpoint as possible - greenhouse gases are indeed a factor in climate change. The thing that is commonly debated is whether or not it is a major factor, to what extent greenhouse gases affect climate change, and to what extent man has influenced this. That debate itself does not belong in this article. If you can cite debate on this topic, it should probably go under climate change. Original debate in my opinion does not belong on Wikipedia as it is meant to be an objective source. --Dpaulat (talk) 19:49, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I reworded the lead so that it better matches the objectives of the protocol; hopefully this makes all parties happy. Andareed (talk) 20:35, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

CG Country

Just a clarification, for the first section, second paragraph, what exactly is a "cg" country? I haven't been able to find any information on this on any of the references cited for that statement, nor does a Google search yield anything useful. I have also looked at the disambiguation for CG and nothing pops out as a related item. --Dpaulat (talk) 13:55, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Apparently it has something to with the Rule of law and a country that has good/strong corporate governance. --Dpaulat (talk) 13:52, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

POV check

I found this statement "Unfortunately, the United States of America have not joined the Kyoto Protocol.", I suspect based on previous talk page comments that this article is riddled with little hard to find statements like that, which is why I am nominating this article for a POV-check. Tcrow777 ^Talk 05:17, 22 August 2008 (UTC) One can say "the United States of America have not joined the Kyoto Protocol". And this is true.--Nukeless 05:53, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the POV problem was the word "unfortunately". Tcrow777 ^Talk 11:01, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Merger Proposal

Two articles, Assigned amount units and Green investment scheme, would perhaps be better as part of this article, rather than separate articles. Much of the info in Assigned amount units, even the term, is already covered here, under the section Kyoto_Protocol#Emissions_trading, so it would definitely fit in that section. The Green investment scheme article covers much of the same info as the AAU article, so I think it would probably fit in that section too.raven1977 (talk) 17:01, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Another map

I am a little confused on which countries are annex 1 and which are not. Would someone perhaps make a map which shows annex 1 as 1 color, and the other group as another color? That would take away a lot of my confusion. Thanks. 65.167.146.130 (talk) 16:39, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

United States list of cities

The list of large cities supporting Kyoto Prot included several that can not by any stretch of the imagination be considered large. I removed cities with pop below 100,000 people. There may be more, but didn't want to be too aggressive with it.

65.167.146.130 (talk) 15:44, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't really see what the list of American cities is doing in this article at all. Apparently they are cities who mayors have signed up for the "U.S. Conference of Mayors Climate Protection Agreement", which involves trying to meet or beat Kyoto Protocol targets. But the Kyoto Protocol is a Protocol, a kind of treaty. This operation belongs on Energy policy of the United States, perhaps. --TS 04:36, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

You are right - the Kyoto Protocol is an amendment to a treaty between nations; the US federal government has the exclusive right to negotiate foreign policy and no individual states, let alone a city, can strike its own deal unilaterally. However, the Mayor's Conference was striking out independently against the Federal stance, as such it is interesting. It probably could be split out into its own article. However, the Kyoto Protocol has been in force for a year now, meanwhile the USA as a whole has not been constraining its carbon output towards a fixed target. While promising, Obama's current announcements do not tally with a carbon reduction commitment that would get close to the Kyoto targets (although the credit crunch will probably do more than all of the negotiations to date!) I guess all eyes are on what comes out of Copenhagen later this year, for a successor to Kyoto. Ephebi (talk) 21:54, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Türkiye is Signed today.

• Somebody added pls :)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.161.61.119 (talk) 17:25, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Kyoto is not as it is advertised

Kyoto is not as it is advertised, mainly made up for establishing Carbon Stock Market worth billions of dollars

freedomion forums quotes from other sources

The case against carbon trading[4] by Rising Tide Environmentalist Activism Group IMPORTANT SOURCE

Reports by Rising Tide

Fact Sheets by Rising Tide

Other Resources by Rising Tide

Quotes by Rising Tide

Carbon Sinks Workshopby Jutta from Fern

Democracy or Carbocracy? Intellectual Corruption and the Future of the Climate Debate by Larry Lohmann first published October 2001 summary PDF

The Sky is Not the Limit The Emerging Market in Greenhouse Gases Carbon Trade Watch, TNI Briefing 1, January 2003 English PDF English PDF text-only

Top 10 'Global-Warming' Myths

Life After Kyoto: Alternative Approaches to Global Warming Policies by William D. Nordhaus Sterling Professor of Economics at Yale University

Greenhouse-gas footprints and environmental activism by Mark Kleiman samefacts.org

I will try to adding some important links against or on Kyoto here Kasaalan (talk) 21:53, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

• Thanks for trying to improve the article but if you have "some important links" can you please make sure they follow the WP:MOS and are relevant and referencable - see WP:SOAP. E.g. the Rising Tide site you've cited above doesn't seem to have anything to do with the text (see "Opposition" subsection), and it isn't a WP:Verifiable source - it seems to be a single-issue direct action site with a list of unsubstantiated accusations. Better to find a reliable WP:source with a well-structured argument that complements a part of the text or that you can reference from the text. Ephebi (talk) 23:20, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Actually I have listened a professional's opinions on the subject before awaring why the Kyoto Protocol is meaningless for saving the environment and made up for 32 billion dollar worth carbon stock market. Yet it is really hard to find good sources, this is not a soapbox this is a link sharing where the opposition part of the article is weak. I am an environmentalist myself, just like Rising Tide North America are, and their points in the article is important and make a great guideline for the titles of the opposition. Before adding the article I will first search and find more and better reliable sources. Yet again kyoto is not as it is advertised and not an environmentalist solution at all. Also while Greenpeace has been mentioned in the article, why not Rising Tide North America which is another green action group will not be mentioned while they are against Kyoto. Isn't that interesting that an environmentalist group supports it and while another group is against it. Kasaalan (talk) 15:25, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Reports by Rising Tide

Fact Sheets by Rising Tide

Other Resources by Rising Tide

Quotes by Rising Tide

By the way I really doubt if you have search the site thoroughly, because it has some great resources in it. Kasaalan (talk) 15:36, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

More reports and links added. Kasaalan (talk) 15:50, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Rising tide is not a reliable source. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 01:34, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Rising tide is as reliable as greenpeace. Kasaalan (talk) 11:47, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Do 2 academical resources that quotes from Rising Tide http://scx.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/30/3/355.pdf http://eprints.qut.edu.au/15793/2/02whole.pdf enough for you. Kasaalan (talk) 14:07, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Correction for U.S. Section

Currently, article states: "The America's Climate Security Act of 2007, also more commonly referred to in the U.S. as the "Cap and Trade Bill" "--actually this bill was more commonly referred to as the "Lieberman-Warner Bill." There were many cap and trade bills proposed during the last Congress. Somebody should fix it--I am not familiar enough with Wikipedia to fix myself.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.48.33.95 (talk) 00:18, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

GA Sweeps Review

This article was promoted to Good article status on June 5, 2006. I am unable to find an actual review outlining how this article meets the six good article criteria. So I will outline that below:

1. Well-written: While there don't appear to be any major spelling errors, the grammar isn't exactly up to par. The opening sentence in the lead is a bit of a run-on, and the lead is poorly-written and organized. Per WP:LEAD, this section should be a good introduction to the article and provide a summary. The article is also not very well organized. The 'details of the agreement' section has multiple second-level headings, some of which are very short with little text. Try to focus on keeping to a couple of good, cohesive main sections, using the second-level headings only when necessary. The request for expansion tag in the objectives section needs to be addressed in order to retain GA status (those five principle concepts also need a citation).

2. Factually accurate and verifiable: While the article does contain a good number of reliable sources in its citations, there are a lot of gaps. There are some entire sections and subsections that have zero, or very few, citations. There are also several "citation needed" tags that have been sprinkled about. These must all be dealt with.

3. Broad in its coverage: The article does appear to cover the topic well, but it's difficult to properly evaluate how broad it really is because of the poor organization. It seems like a lot of sections were added near the end of the article, and the consistency and cohesiveness has been lost. I think if editors focused on a few core topics as major headings, and tried to avoid the multiple sub-headings and sub-sub-headings, things will come together much better and it will be far easier to evaluate this properly. As of right now, I would have to fail this article on criterion 3.

4. Neutral: The article started to appear to adhere to WP:NPOV, but the 'support' and 'opposition' sections, I have a problem with. Their insufficiently cited and poorly written with lots of ambiguous phrases. I would avoid having specific main sections for support and opposition, personally. The pros and cons of various aspects of this protocol should be incorporated into other sections as appropriate.

5. Stable: I see quite a bit of vandalism by anonymous editors in the past month or so, but I don't see any major edit wars or WP:3RR violations. So I think the article would pass this criteria.

6. Illustrations & Images: The images are tagged appropriately with copyright tags. The article passes this criteria. Although the 'global trends' image has several graphs that might be better off if split into individual images, rather than putting all five charts in one image file.

Overall, I think a lot of work is needed for this article to retain its GA status, and I would not pass it if it were nominated today. I will leave this GA Sweeps Review in an open/on hold situation currently, and check it again on June 5, 2009. If the article's issues have not been addressed by then, it will be demoted to B-class. Dr. Cash (talk) 16:08, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately, no progress has been made, and it's June 12. Article delisted. Once it meets the GA criteria again, it can be renominated at WP:GAN. Dr. Cash (talk) 14:07, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

"4. Neutral: The article started to appear to adhere to WP:NPOV, but the 'support' and 'opposition' sections, I have a problem with. Their insufficiently cited and poorly written with lots of ambiguous phrases. I would avoid having specific main sections for support and opposition, personally. The pros and cons of various aspects of this protocol should be incorporated into other sections as appropriate."

Totally agree, opposition section is weak and does not cover any actual criticism. Kasaalan (talk) 14:41, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Hydrogen as indirect greenhouse gas

According to this article], hydrogen is a indirect ghg-gas. This means that aldough it does not act as a greenhouse gas itself, it worsens the effect of greenhouse gases already floating around in the atmosphere. This extra global warming should be calculated into the national ghg emissions in order for a emissionless economy to work. This would allow hydrogen use to remain carbon neutral in the calculation (simplifies calculation).

add in article —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.176.13.194 (talk) 11:44, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

First Sentence Error

The first sentence reads, The Kyoto Protocol is a protocol to the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC or FCCC), an international environmental treaty produced at the United Nations Conference on treaty is intended to achieve "stabilization of greenhouse gas concentrations in the atmosphere at a level that would prevent dangerous anthropogenic interference with the climate system."

The part where it says, "...treaty produced at the United Nations Conference on treaty..." makes no sense. I've edited it to make it readable and unless someone knows what the original editor meant to say I think it is better this way.DavidMSA (talk) 08:54, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Successor

Perhaps an article about protocol that is to come to adhere to the 2°C warming limit: which would mean a 50% emission reductions by 2050 or zero greenhouse gas emissions by 2060 (according to coupled modelling projection of IPCC). Weird is that, following James Hansen's recent paper on Arctic ice melting, George Monbiot told the 2007 Climate Camp at Heathrow Airport: "We're talking about measures which require global revolutionary change." 90% cuts are no longer adequate, he said, nor, even, are 100% cuts. We are looking at 110-120% cuts in other words sequestering more carbon than we produce. Not sure by which date these 110-120% cut was required —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.66.58.244 (talk) 09:16, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

US Section "largest tax increase" last sentence of second paragraph.

Not sure if the citation (number 64) at the end of the last sentence of the second paragraph is supposed to be a source of the claim that some authority's suggest the bill would be the "largest tax increase in the history of the united states".

Given that the bill is 500 pages long and in a format the average user is not familiar with, I believe the exact location (e.g. section number, page number) of the unnamed authority's conclusion should be mentioned in the footnote, if the comment is even appropriate at all. 24.215.237.149 (talk) 20:28, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Explanation of Tony Sidaway's revert of an insertion by 207.224.56.103

Someone editing from IP number 207.224.56.103 has added the following text:

A petition has been circulated among scientists that states: "The proposed limits on greenhouse gases (in the protocol) would harm the environment, hinder the advance of science and technology, and damage the health and welfare of mankind." This petition is called the Oregon Petition, which currently lists over 31,000 scientists as signers. "Global Warming Petition". OISM. Retrieved 2009-09-10.

The problematic nature of the petition and the claims made about "31,000 scientists" is described adequately at Oregon Petition. Due to concerns of Undue Weight, I have removed the reference. There is no evidence that this document represents the views of scientists in general, and plenty of evidence to the contrary. --TS 15:48, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Why not one line about the failed link between global warming and carbon emissions?

I couldn't find one single line, not even on the criticism bit, that would show that hundreds of millions of scientists say there are no link between the global warming and the carbon emissions?

Scientists urge Merkel to change global warming view: http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/beltway-confidential/Scientists-urge-Merkel-to-change-global-warming-view--52513912.html Minority Report from US Senate: http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Files.View&FileStore_id=83947f5d-d84a-4a84-ad5d-6e2d71db52d9 Letter of the chemistry scientist repudiating the chief editor of their scientific magazine: http://pubs.acs.org/cen/letters/87/8730letters.html

And these are only a few references... Echofloripa (talk) 14:27, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Even if these are "only a few references" as you state above i hardly think that your point of "hundreds of millions of scientists, say there is no link" is accurate. On the sources they refer to roughly 1000 people, who are pointed out as having this view...

1000 vs your >100,000,000 -- quite a difference in numbers.

Until a selection of more accurate sources, tied in with reputable journal reseach (not just comments about an article) shows that there is no link between global warming and carbon emissions I feel it would not have any place being in this page.

Midgetoto (talk) 13:56, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Same old boring septic stuff. The traditional place to waste peoples time with this is over at global warming William M. Connolley (talk) 17:35, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Kyoto_Protocol#Kyoto_is_not_as_it_is_advertised

The major issue with this article is it contains near no relevant criticism at all in it. The Kyoto Protocol will only lead to a multi-billion dolar carbon trade stock exchange and not about environment at all like Rising Tide North America says. "Emission limits do not include emissions by international aviation and shipping, but are in addition to the industrial gases, chlorofluorocarbons, or CFCs, which are dealt with under the 1987 Montreal Protocol on Substances that Deplete the Ozone Layer. The benchmark 1990 emission levels were accepted by the Conference of the Parties of UNFCCC (decision 2/CP.3)" is all enough proof for why Kyoto won't work I am saying this as an environmentalist myself. Kasaalan (talk) 14:24, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Std comment applies: find a decent WP:RS stating your point and bring a quote from it here to discuss William M. Connolley (talk) 14:45, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

(e/c)Rising tides is still not a reliable source, and thus it can't be used here. Nor is Rising tide a notable voice in the debate (i for one had never heard about them (and google, while not authoritative, agrees). --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 14:50, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Even Rising Tide North America Branch alone has 70.000 results and Rising Tide Australia alone has 170.000 results in Google.

If you actually read the links, you can tell the pages directs to WP:RS academic or expert reports. If you don't how can we discuss. Also it is Rising Tide North America not rising tides. It is no wonder you haven't heard them because mass media rarely mentions Kyoto criticizers and possibly you are not an expert on the field. Kasaalan (talk) 16:12, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

• http://www.ilr.cornell.edu/globallaborinstitute/projects/climate/retreat/upload/ClimateFederalSweeney.pdf list of various NGOs that opposes carbon trade and Kyoto Protocol
• Stop Climate Chaos coalition of NGOs that argues Kyoto won't solve things
  • Carbon Trade Watch http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6132826.stm BBC WP:RS
  • Transnational Institute http://www.tni.org/archives/reports_ctw_sky full report WP:RS
  • Transnational Institute http://www.tni.org/carbon-trade-fails full report published by Dag Hammarskjöld Foundation WP:RS
  • The Corner House (organisation) http://www.thecornerhouse.org.uk/item.shtml?x=51982 report WP:RS
  • Rising Tide http://scx.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/30/3/355.pdf SAGE Publications academic resource WP:RS
  • Rising Tide http://risingtide.org.uk/resources/factsheets/carbontrading fact sheet for quick overview of their objections
  • Rising Tide http://eprints.qut.edu.au/15793/1/John_Pace_Thesis.pdf academic thesis WP:RS
  • Rising Tide reviewed in academic thesis http://envstudies.brown.edu/theses/kellynicholsthesis.pdf
  • Rising Tide in http://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/49703?show=full http://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/49703/436283959.pdf?sequence=1 scholar WP:RS mentioning Rising Tide North America members for Carbon Capture and Storage protests

    "Furthermore, Greenpeace Joined 38 smaller organizations in sending a letter to Congress asking that no taxpayer funds be used to develop CCS.<ref> Three of these organizations were also responsible for organizing a protest against coal outside the coal-burning Capitol Power Plant in Washington D.C. on March 2, 2009. Anti-coal advocates including Robert F. Kennedy Jr., Bill McKibben, and James Hansen joined the 2,500 protestors, making it the country's largest protest against coal power (Sheppard 2009). <ref> The 39 groups include: ActionPA, Alliance for Appalachia, Appalachian Voices, Black Mesa Water Coalition, California Communities Against Toxics, Canary Coalition, Cape & Islands Self-Reliance Corporation, Center for Coalfield Justice, Co-op America, Chesapeake Climate Action Network, Citizens Action Coalition of Indiana, Clean Power Now, Coal River Mountain Watch [5], Cook Inletkeeper [6], Energy Justice Network [7], Environmental Alliance of North Florida, Environmental Research Foundation (maybe Applied Environmental Research Foundation not sure), Friends of the Earth, Global Exchange, The Grand Canyon Trust [8] (founded by Huey Johnson), Green Delaware, Greenpeace, Heartwood (not sure if it is Heartwood House or not), Help Our Polluted Environment, Indigenous Environmental Network [9] [10] [11] [12], Jefferson Action Group, Kentuckians for the Commonwealth, Meigs Citizen Action Now, Mountain Watershed Association, North Carolina Waste Awareness & Reduction Network [13], Nuclear Information and Resource Service, Ohio Valley Environmental Coalition, Palm Beach County Environmental Coalition, Protect Biodiversity in Public Forests, Rainforest Action Network, Residents Against the Power Plant, Rising Tide North America, Save It Now, Glades!, Save Our Cumberland Mountains, Southern Energy Network, and Valley Watch. (Rainforest Network 2008)."

    so we are talking about a big coalition of smaller environmentalist groups
  • PolicyLink http://policylink.info/documents/climatechange_final.pdf report section 4 criticizes taking only CO2 emmisions, links to Rising Tide
  • SinksWatch "an initiative of the World Rainforest Movement ... The aim of SinksWatch is to track and scrutinize carbon sequestration projects related to the Kyoto Protocol, and to highlight their threats to forests and other ecosystems, to forest peoples as well as to the climate." another group that opposes carbon trading http://www.sinkswatch.org/campaign/presentations http://www.sinkswatch.org/sites/fern.org/files/Montreal%202008%20-%20Why%20carbon%20offsets%20are%20a%20dangerous%20distraction_0.pdf http://www.sinkswatch.org/sites/fern.org/files/NYC%202008%20-%20climate%20change%20privatisation%20and%20power.pdf ...
• So basically Rainforest Network and Stop Climate Chaos are coalitions of dozens of smaller environmentalist groups which should be taken seriously. And if you don't include their view it only means WP:CENSOR or non WP:NPOV article which omits criticism of OTHER including MINOR and not-so-MINOR views.

Don't know how you researched, but even Rising Tide North America Branch alone has 70.000 results and Rising Tide Australia alone has 170.000 results in google. Try reading reports if you really take criticism serious. Kasaalan (talk) 16:12, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Calls to other editors to expand the 'Criticism' section

I have reverted calls placed in the article today by User:Kasaalan asking other editors to read articles that discuss extreme minority views on Global warming and come and expand the 'Criticism' section here. Per WP:STRUCTURE, we should not really have such a section: "Segregation of text or other content into different regions or subsections, based solely on the apparent POV of the content itself, may result in an unencyclopedic structure". Asking for help to expand it, "do not trim criticism yet help expanding it" (K's edit summary), smacks of a violation of WP:MEAT, "It is considered inappropriate to advertise Wikipedia articles to ... communities of people who agree with you for the purpose of coming to Wikipedia and supporting your side of a debate." These are both WP policies and so are are not open to debate. The constructive action to take with points raised in the existing criticism section is to "fold[...] debates into the narrative, rather than distilling them into separate sections that ignore each other."(WP:STRUCTURE). --Nigelj (talk) 16:07, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Your blatantly obvious complete WP:POV revert like you WP:OWN article is a waste of my time. You fail to discuss against WP:RS academic sources in talk page. Only reason I don't revert you now it 3RR. I don't know which part criticism section you don't get but there are various environment NGOs opposes criticism. And you cannot trim even MINOR views in criticism sections and demand only 1 view to be undeniably true. Tha article lacks any serious criticism by any standard. "do not trim criticism yet help expanding it" is a request as an edit comment referring to talk page. I will provide a much detail and serious section later, but I don't have much free time right now. WP:MEAT has nothing to do with it, how can it be anyway. If you fail to understand wiki policies it is your fault not mine.

• a - Do you claim no one opposes or criticizes Kyoto Protocol. You can't claim that.
• b - Do you claim no environmentalist NGO opposes Kyoto Protocol or every environmentalist NGO supports Kyoto Protocol? No you can't claim that.
• c - Do you claim no academician NGO opposes Kyoto Protocol or every academician NGO supports Kyoto Protocol? No you can't claim that.
• d - Do you claim criticism section is unnecessary. You can't claim that. I didn't started the criticism section. The section was there already. I just tagged it for {{expandsect}} simply because the criticism in criticism section does not cover any serious criticism of Kyoto at all.
• e - I provided enough WP:RS above, which possibly you won't bother reading. Then why do you try to revert like this is your WP:OWN sailing site. Kasaalan (talk) 19:09, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

By the way {{expandsect}} is literally means "do not trim criticism yet help expanding it" which is a public announcement. New editors may not know what the tag means in edit comment so I tried to explain it. Will you give any answer or not. Kasaalan (talk) 11:40, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

An editor has been trying to add the section below to the 'Criticism' section where it seems highly relevant, but it has been deleted for what appaer to be inadequate reasons: James Hansen has argued that policies to cap carbon emissions and trade permits for them (see cap and trade) will only make money for banks and hedge funds and allow 'business-as-usual' for the coal, oil and gas industries which are the major contributors to rising atmospheric carbon dioxide levels. He claims the best way to keep atmospheric carbon dioxide levels below the catastrophic tipping point of 350ppm is to phase out coal-fired power stations without adequate biosequestration and impose a carbon tax at source on those who mine or trade carbon as oil, gas or coal without adequate biosequestration. This carbon tax will be collected through existing taxation bureaucracy and provide a 100% progressive dividend deposited monthly into the bank accounts of carbon-responsible individual members of society (not governments) (equal shares on a per capita basis (half shares for children up to a maximum of two child-shares per family). This dividend will create an incentive for families to invest in renewable energy initiatives, buy low-carbon products and make money by striving to reduce their carbon footprint to less than average.150.203.86.27 (talk) 23:38, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Highly relevant what the last 3 editors reverting criticism trying to do exactly. Kasaalan (talk) 10:26, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

An editor called Arthur Rubin has been reverting every mention of Hansen's criticisms of Kyoto Protocol. He reverted the entry below. The entry is an explicit criticism of Kyoto Protocol by a notable expert. I can't see what valid reason the editor could have for reverting it, but have requested he/she discuss here before further reversions

James Hansen director of NASA’s Goddard Insitute for Space Studies has claimed that the United Nations Climate Change Conference taking place at the Bella Center in Copenhagen, Denmark, between December 7 and December 18, 2009 (which includes the 15th Conference of the Parties (COP 15) to the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change and the 5th Meeting of the Parties (COP/MOP 5) to the Kyoto Protocol is a 'farce' and planned to boycott it because it was seeking a counter-productive agreement to limit emissions through an inefficient and indulgent “cap and trade” system. “They are selling indulgences there" Hansen states. "The developed nations want to continue basically business as usual so they are expected to purchase indulgences to give some small amount of money to developing countries. They do that in the form of offsets and adaptation funds.” Hansen prefers a progressive “carbon tax”, not the Kyotol Protocol “cap and trade” system; this tax would begin at the equivalent of about $1 per gallon of petrol and revenues would all be returned directly to the public as a dividend.121.127.207.75 (talk) 16:54, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

It's not a notable criticism, nor is it exactly a criticism of the Kyoto Protocol, which do not specify the National method of limiting net greenhouse gas emission. I've (at least partially) corrected the version in carbon tax, and a minimal comment might belong in cap and trade, but I don't see why it should be here. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 10:48, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

These comments by Hansen have had wide coverage in international media. They directly mention the Kyoto Protocol cap and trade system. You mightn't like them but why should that be a reason for persistent deltion of them?121.127.207.75 (talk) 12:16, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

I've semiprotected this page, due to the edit war regarding the Hansen quote. Reach a consensus here about whether to include Hansen or not, and use dispute resolution if necessary. Gabbe (talk) 13:53, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

I believe we would need a cite for "These comments by Hansen have had wide coverage in international media." Also, the proposed details of his plan only belong in carbon tax (and possibly cap and trade), and those only with the criticism they've already achieved. As it stands, I don't think his passing mention of Kyoto in criticizing cap and trade warrants mention. That is, even if it's supported by the reference. The paragraph has been changing over the past few days, and it's no longer supported by the reference.

The primary IP adding the paragraph has also been adding it to various other marginally related articles, such as biosequestration, mitigation of global warming, carbon tax (where a version of it still remains, although now with a {{verification failed}} tag), and probably some I haven't yet found. It should be noted that it hasn't been added to Hansen's article (which, at the moment, is protected due to an edit war on a different topic.

In fact, the paragraphs of that article relating to coal-fired plants and nuclear power seem more appropriate for articles on those topics. But that's not a reason for including it here.

It may be a reason for sock puppet investigations in regard new users who have re-added the material, though. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 17:02, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Not sure if you fully protect the page, how the IP might debate. Anyhow I will try improving his additions. Then we can discuss which pages the paragraph is related. Kasaalan (talk) 22:55, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

This is a good example how some certain editors, make use of their registered accounts against non-registered accounts. The user actually contributed a good paragraph, 3 editors constantly reverted him deleting his contribution instead improving it, turning this into an edit war, then calling the actual contributor as WP:SPAMMER.

The reverting editors, either a didn't read paragraph, b didn't get it or c acting WP:POV and didn't care

The paragraph based on James Hansen, describing core of the environmentalists who criticize how Kyoto Protocol got emptied by corporations for profit over carbon stock exchange-carbon trade.

User's above claims are utterly false. James Hansen has credibility, WP:RS source Times Onlinehas credibility [14], paragraph is relevant, ... The Kyoto Protocol is a 'farce' and planned to boycott it because it was seeking a counter-productive agreement to limit emissions through an inefficient and indulgent “cap and trade” system." describes he criticizes and plans to boycott Kyoto Protocol, so being related to cap and trade does not mean this is not related to Kyoto. Interestingly some editors constantly try to hide criticism or make no effort on adding criticism to Kyoto Protocol on this page, which reminds me WP:POV and WP:COI. Kasaalan (talk) 23:09, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

If this is WP:UNDUE weight over 1 scientist, and he is boycotting Kyoto for money for example, why don't we all add more scientific criticism that comes from many environmentalist groups and scientists, who criticize Kyoto has turned into a no-good state, since it doesn't contain CFC, or Kyoto is all about 32 billion dolar carbon market. Criticism section needs expansion one way or another. Kasaalan (talk) 23:16, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Paragraph

Improve attempt

Further information: Carbon_trade § Criticism

Director of NASA’s Goddard Insitute for Space Studies and climate scientist James Hansen has claimed that the United Nations Climate Change Conference taking place at the Bella Center in Copenhagen, Denmark, between December 7-18, 2009 (which includes the 15th Conference of the Parties (COP 15) to the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change and the 5th Meeting of the Parties (COP/MOP 5) to the Kyoto Protocol is a 'farce' and planned to boycott it because it was seeking a counter-productive agreement to limit emissions through an inefficient and indulgent “cap and trade” system. “They are selling indulgences there" Hansen states. "The developed nations want to continue basically business as usual so they are expected to purchase indulgences to give some small amount of money to developing countries. They do that in the form of offsets and adaptation funds.” Hansen prefers a progressive “carbon tax”, not the Kyoto Protocol “cap and trade” system; this tax would begin at the equivalent of about $1 per gallon of petrol and revenues would all be returned directly to the public as a dividend.

• Climate scientist James Hansen hopes summit will fail James Bone Times Online December 3, 2009
• http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/12/nasa-climate-change-scientist-to-boycott-copenhagen-climate-summit.php Tree Hugger
• http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2009/mar/18/nasa-climate-change-james-hansen The Guardian
• http://www.thestar.com/sciencetech/Environment/article/285582 Toronto Star
• http://www.ecofactory.com/news/top-nasa-climate-scientist-copenhagen-must-fail-120309

Hansen quotes over climate change at British scientific journal Nature (journal)

• http://www.nature.com/climate/2009/0912/full/climate.2009.127.html nature.com
• http://www.nature.com/climate/2009/0912/full/climate.2009.124.html
• http://www.nature.com/climate/2009/0905/full/climate.2009.42.html
• http://www.nature.com/climate/2009/0905/full/climate.2009.41.html
• http://www.nature.com/climate/2009/0905/full/climate.2009.34.html
• http://www.nature.com/climate/2009/0903/full/climate.2009.19.html
• http://www.nature.com/climate/2009/0902/full/climate.2009.3.html
• http://www.nature.com/climate/2008/0812/full/climate.2008.122.html
• http://www.nature.com/climate/2008/0802/full/climate.2008.3.html
• http://www.nature.com/climate/2007/0709/full/climate.2007.41.html
• http://www.nature.com/climate/2009/0901/full/climate.2008.142.html

Trying to improve and add references. Kasaalan (talk) 22:55, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

While Hansen may be interesting, and hold interesting views, that gather news mentions it is Undue weight to an single individual scientist. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 23:15, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Sources reliable enough. Hansen is one of the leading experts, whether he is right or wrong. There is WP:UNDUE weight against Kyoto criticism in the article. Some editors don't improve criticism section and they don't let others to improve it. Whether critics of Kyoto right or wrong, their views should be mentioned to some degree. That is what an encyclopedia is all about. Kasaalan (talk) 23:33, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

I haven't checked the new references, but the original reference in The Guardian supported some of the statements in the original paragraph and contradicted others. See the discussion at Talk:Carbon tax#Hansen. I still don't see this as particularly relevant to Kyoto, as Kyoto doesn't mandate cap and trade, but specifies greenhouse gas reduction targets. However, if the statement were properly sourced, and trimmed to indicate the part which is correct and relevant to Kyoto (even in Hansen's opinion), I believe it could be included. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 02:14, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Some important points as to why this criticism should be part of the article: (1) Hansen is a notable scientist on climate chanfge (basic early research on rising atmospheric C02 levels) who isn't a climate change sceptic (2) he's written an open letter to Obama which is driving substantial international debate about the merits of the capping of emission levels and trade of emission permits system which are a central mechanism of the Kyoto Protocol (Arthur Rubin is simply wrong to say there is a disjuntion between the Kyoto Protocol and 'cap and trade' system (3) more likely that genuine attempts will be made if global public debate is raised and the negotiators shamed-how can this happen if global communication systems like Wikipedia stifle debate like this issue at such a crucial time. Shame on Wikipedia! See Hansens's letter to obama at: James Hansen. Letter to Obama http://www.columbia.edu/~jeh1/mailings/20081229_DearMichelleAndBarack.pdf accessed 10 Dec 2009. and James Hansen. Tell Barack Obama the Truth. http://www.columbia.edu/~jeh1/mailings/20081229_Obama_revised.pdf accessed 1o Dec 2009.121.127.207.75 (talk) 10:36, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Here is a direct Hansen quote on the Kyoto Protocol:

"So, for example, in the Kyoto Protocol, that was very ineffective. Even the countries that took on supposedly the strongest requirements, like Japan for example—if you look at its actual emissions, its actual fossil fuel use, you see that their CO2 emissions actually increased even though they were supposed to decrease. Because their coal use increased and they used offsets to meet their objective. Offsets don’t help significantly. That’s why the approach that Copenhagen is using to specify goals for emission reductions and then to allow offsets to accomplish much of that reduction is really a fake. And that has to be exposed. Otherwise, just like in the Kyoto Protocol, we’ll realize 10 years later, oops, it really didn’t do much." Nell Greenberg. Interview with James Hansen. Grist 28 Sept 2009. http://www.grist.org/article/2009-09-28-james-hansen-on-obama-climate-legislation-and-coal/ accessed 10 Dec 2009.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.127.207.75 (talk) 11:44, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the answers both parties. We can have a civil discussion. Editors can you follow indent, layout and blockquotes so the discussion is more clear for layout. Changed your layout for Hansen quotes for easier reading. Kasaalan (talk) 11:59, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Redrafted Para with Extra References

Director of NASA’s Goddard Institute for Space Studies and eminent climate scientist James Hansen has claimed that the United Nations Climate Change Conference taking place at the Bella Center in Copenhagen, Denmark, between December 7-18, 2009 (which includes the 15th Conference of the Parties (COP 15) to the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change and the 5th Meeting of the Parties (COP/MOP 5) to the Kyoto Protocol is a 'farce' and planned to boycott it because it was seeking a counter-productive agreement to limit emissions through an inefficient and indulgent “cap and trade” system. “They are selling indulgences there" Hansen states. "The developed nations want to continue basically business as usual so they are expected to purchase indulgences to give some small amount of money to developing countries. They do that in the form of offsets and adaptation funds.”

"So, for example, in the Kyoto Protocol, that was very ineffective. Even the countries that took on supposedly the strongest requirements, like Japan for example—if you look at its actual emissions, its actual fossil fuel use, you see that their CO2 emissions actually increased even though they were supposed to decrease. Because their coal use increased and they used offsets to meet their objective. Offsets don’t help significantly. That’s why the approach that Copenhagen is using to specify goals for emission reductions and then to allow offsets to accomplish much of that reduction is really a fake. And that has to be exposed. Otherwise, just like in the Kyoto Protocol, we’ll realize 10 years later, oops, it really didn’t do much." Ref: Nell Greenberg. Interview with James Hansen.

Hansen has stirred international interest (see for example Nature Reports Climate Change) on an alternative to the "cap and trade" system in a recent book and an open letter to President Obama. Hansen argues for a progressive “carbon tax”. This tax would be placed at source on the oil, coal and gas industries and begin at the equivalent of about $1 per gallon of petrol; revenues would all be returned directly to members of the public as a dividend proportional to their carbon footprint.

Thankyou. This would surely be a useful addition to the article.121.127.207.75 (talk) 12:11, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

A shortened form of the first paragraph might be appropriate in the COP 15 article. The rest is clearly WP:UNDUE weight and/or still not supported by the references provided. For example, there is no source given (or available) that there is "international interest". — Arthur Rubin (talk) 15:34, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I think we should be clear that, when describing these international agreements, we're not here to discuss what should have gone into them (in the case of Kyoto, in the past) or all the detailed arguments that the parties may or may not like to consider (for Copenhagen, in the near future). We have dozens of detailed technical and political articles about the individual topics for that. These articles discuss the actual agreements, and their ramifications. The suggestion here seems to be almost pure political lobbying, and so has no real place in either. It may have a place in James Hansen's personal article, but I think it would be undue weight, even there, unless this letter and its suggestion becomes the thing he is most remembered for by history. --Nigelj (talk) 19:52, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

In answer to Arthur Rubin "international interest" is clearly demonstrated by the list of articles on this page. The discussion of Hansen's views in Nature should be a sufficient additional reference. Everything in the para is supported by the articles cited. It is a criticism section how on earth will it every expand if you keep blocking mention of one of the most notable critics of Kyoto Protocol.121.127.207.75 (talk) 20:18, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

A Criticism of Kyoto Protocol article is essential if criticism addition in the article gives WP:UNDUE. I will create one when I find time. Also which "dozens of detailed technical and political articles" criticize Kyoto can you list with wikilinks here. Kasaalan (talk) 21:41, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

This illustrates some interesting problems with the Wikipedia system. If you're not notable (and/or your views) you don't get mentioned, but if you're too notable then blocking editors can label comments by such persons WP:UNDUE weight. Of course what they are doing is prioritising their own prejudices as more important then the dissemination of all points of view; so that their views are themselves WP:UNDUE weight but only of a non-transparent blocking kind. Hard to see how Wikipedia will look good asking for donations ("we're there when you need us most") when Wikipedia gets silenced by these blocking tactics on critical global debates. It doesn't mean Hansen's criticisms of the Kyoto Protocol won't continue to be discussed internationally, it just that Wikipedia won't be part of the discussion. And if in time modifications of Hansen's plan are successful Wikipedia will look redundant for having ignored them. I'm wondering why no editor has sought to include Tuvalu's criticisms of the Kyoto Protocol. I guess they'd be labelled WP:UNDUE weight and probably feel inhibited by watching what's going on here. Perhaps that is the aim of the blockers. Thus is global discussion inhibited. Its a disgrace.121.127.207.75 (talk) 22:41, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

This page should be edit unprotected during the Copenhagen conference-isn't this just the time when new editors to this article should be welcomed?150.203.87.47 (talk) 00:40, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Germany already reached Kyoto goals

You may add: Since signing and ratifying the protocol, Germany has committed to reducing its emissions to 21% below 1990 levels between 2008 and 2012. In November 2008, a study found that Germany had already reduced its greenhouse gas emissions by 22.4%, which means it already reached its Kyoto Emissions Commitments. Munibert (talk) 01:04, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Major errors in change in greenhouse gas emission since 1990

There are gaping errors in the Change in greenhouse gas emission since 1990. The numbers reported here are simply nothing like that listed in th UN report here that is listed as the source. [15]. I am going to correct this soon. Custodiet ipsos custodes talk 20:12, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Getting ready to update it to 1990-2007 figures (which are the newest). Good catch - Denmark was seriously wrong! --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 21:52, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Where did you get the latest numbers from? I don't see any new source listed. Custodiet ipsos custodes talk 13:52, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Ok I just saw the new link - question answered. :) Custodiet ipsos custodes talk 13:56, 13 December 2009 (UTC)