Talk:Kobe/Archive 1

Archive 1

Clarification

Dave,

can you clarify the sentence 'It is in the Kansai region of Japan, in the Higashinada ward in Hyogo prefecture to the south-west of Osaka....'. Higashinada ward (東灘区) is a part of Kobe city so I'm a bit puzzled.
cheers, --synthetik 01:58 Apr 25, 2003 (UTC)

________

Synthetik - my mistake: Higashinada is part of Kobe, with the benefit of fuzzy recollection where the town hall is located. I'll remove that reference.

You obviously know quite a lot about Japan: do you know the Japanese word for the change in seasons (I can't remember it)? Also, what is the name of the ceremony/event in Kobe where they light up Mt Rokko with letters in flames? Cheers - David Stewart 14:31 25 April 2003 (HKT)

Actually I don't know that much about Japan, but wikipedia made me dive into the subject. Of course it helps being a resident of Japan.

To get back to your questions. I don't know if you look for the word 'season' that would be kisetsu (季節) if not I will find out and tell you on your talk page.

The festival your talking about is actually in Kyoto not Kobe and is called Daimonji Gozan Okuribi held on Aug. 16 see -> http://www.momonga.org/kyoto/matsuri/okuribi.html for more info.

BTW, today I'll go to the Kansai area to visit friends and I will be taking a couple of pics that I plan to upload here (given they're good enough :). Any special request? What do you think should go on the Kobe page.

cheers, --synthetik 08:39 Apr 25, 2003 (UTC)

I think that the word you are looking for is 'Koyo' (紅葉).

dougandh

______________

Ah, thanks for the link to Daimonji.

Re: Kansai photos. I'd suggest the scene of Kobe in Harbor Land (near Mosaic Restaurant if its still there); the crab near Dotonburi Bridge in Osaka, which is a stereotypical but recognisable photo of contemporary Osaka; in Kyoto...I don't know. Too many to choose from.

Have fun in Kansai - I lived there Moriguchi on the Keihan line in 96-97, and haven't been back to Japan apart from a short trip in late 97 - natsukashii.

Cheers David Stewart

_________________________

Hi, I´d just like to suggest that the picture of the tower be put in the center, rather than in the right corner. It looks really awkrward... and I think if it was "Center", floating just next to the table of contents it would look quite nice... I´d pop it right right after

"The city is a part of the Osaka-Kobe-Kyoto metropolitan sprawl." So it had that effect... Kurogawa 05:17, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Disambig?

Kobe redirects here. Am I alone in thinking there should be a Disambiguation page or a note or something? There's Kobe Bryant and Kobe beef (for which he was named) to be considered. --Feitclub 03:05, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)

I agree

ChristopherMannMcKay 13:28, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Busiest port in Asia?

I call bullshit on Kobe ever being the busiest port in Asia. According to [1], they handled 2,602,996 TEUs in 1993; it's not very easy to find data that old for other ports, but eg. Singapore was already handling almost 16,000,000 TEU in 1998. [2] Until somebody digs up evidence to the contrary, I'm downgrading it to Japan's busiest port (which is a verifiable fact). Jpatokal 04:09, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Proof! Hong Kong already handled 4,566 kTEU in 1993, handily whipping Kobe. Even if empty containers are excluded they still managed over 3500k. [3] Same applies to tons of cargo: HK 118m tons [4] vs Kobe 39.8m tons. [5] Jpatokal 04:15, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

"Kobe" or "Kobe City"

WP:MOS-JA says city names should appear on its own without "City" or "-shi", but like other Japanese cities, Kobe uses "Kobe City" on signs and the official web site. This article uses both and either way, it should be uniform. It seems just "Kobe" is more appropriate, since it's not going to be confused with a prefecture name, and "City" shouldn't appear unless it specifically talks about the municipal government, IMO. Ytny 10:47, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree; keep it Kobe, not Kobe City

ChristopherMannMcKay 13:27, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

New section

Throughout the article, cultural references are made that don't really belong in each section (for instance: kobe beef, movie and tourist references under Orientation). Why not place them together under a new section, Culture (as in the Kyoto article), Attractions (like in the Osaka article) or another appropriate name. Maybe even replace the Buildings section, since it only contains one building. Ninja neko 07:59, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree, the page needs sorting up quite a lot. I tried to learn a bit about the city and its history and all I got was a rant on war crimes.

Japanese city article naming debate

Please join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles). --Polaron | Talk 08:27, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Too many zeros (not enough B29s)

Surely this is mistaken?

During the course of World War II, Kobe was bombed with incendiary bombs by 331 B-29 bombers on March 17, 1945. The city was reduced to ashes and nearly 900 000 civilians were killed.

The link asscociated with the word "bombed" states,

Approximately 8,841 of the city's residents were killed in the resulting firestorms, which destroyed an area 3 square miles in size and included 21% of Kobe's urban area. At the time, the city covered an area of 14 square miles. More than 650,000 people had their homes destroyed, and the homes of another million people were damaged.

Oh dear, how sad, don't start a war then.

POV issues

I tagged that paragraph because it uses the word "war crime" to describe the American bombing of the city, despite no objective determination (such as a conviction in a court of law) that that was the case. Moreover, the rest of the paragraph, while it may be true, sounds quite polemical in tone and should be rephrased to be more even-handed. Biruitorul 16:59, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

agreed. Needs rephrasing, a proper citation, and placement elsewhere. As it is, this historical fact (together with peyorative generalisations over America) gets in the way of the real history of the city.

Determining civilian mass murder as a war crime should never hinge on official declaration as such such as in aa court of law. It is well-established that the bombings of Kobe, as well as numerous other and mostly smaller towns were bombed with the intentional murder of civilians.

Revision by anonymous editor from 72.53.7.117 on 06:58, 3 August 2006 is totally hoax and have no base. It must be safe to delete the edition. So I have deleted the part. "Many citizen's groups in Kobe are active in promoting awareness of this and other American war crimes against the Japanrese civilian population" ... I have never heard of such a thing. People in Kobe is not so radical in politic matter. The total of death directly caused by US's bombing until the end of the WWII was 8841 according to ja:神戸市. I think that we can rely on the number, if there is any strong oppose. The population of the city was more than 1 million in 1939, but 900 000 death is impossible. Other statements by this anonymous editor from 72.53.7.117 are not related to the city at all. --Isorhiza 10:33, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

PICTURES

• The sunset over kobe does not look good at all; it does not have a sunset looking sky and the building are so dark you cannot see them. I do not see the point of having a picture to show how the city looks like, when you can only see the outline of the buildings. What do others think?

• I think the port of kobe picture with the two large ships should be removed. It is obvious that this is not a picture of the port, but a picture of two large ships with 10% of the picture actually showing the port.

• The Nakatottei picture is not a good picture at all, at least in my opinion; it should show more of the city and it was likely taken by an amature photographer.

I think these three should be removed. What do others think? ChristopherMannMcKay 13:18, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

It bears pointing out that we're all amateurs here. Well, most of us anyway. That said, you can find plenty of Wiki-friendly photographs on Flickr, so if you think the photos need replacing, knock yourself out. Ytny 17:19, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the photo gallery needs to be trimmed. There are too many photos in the gallery, which, given its size and location, dramatically lowers the quality of the article. All but perhaps four or five should be cut. -- Exitmoose 00:19, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Almost all the photographs of this page seem to be relatively good in me. I cannot understand why you criticize the photographs of this page abruptly. --C-cro 13:20, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I cut the ones people were complaning about yesterday. All the ones that are left look pretty good to me. -- Exitmoose 01:31, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Culture

I do not have any sources, but I know before the Kobe earthquake, Kobe was the largest shipping port in Japan and it was one of the first major shipping ports to trade with westerners a long time ago, so Kobe saw a lot more westernized things before other parts of Japan. Examples include, the first French style bakeries that are now wide spread throughout Kobe more than any other city in Japan and Japan's first golf course; there are other things too, I just can't remember them all, but I know the port influenced the city a lot. A lot of westerners lived in Kobe because of the port and built multiple buildings downtown in European architecture. Fashion has somewhat influenced the city’s culture, as many popular fashion magazines compare Kobe style with Osaka style or Tokyo style; there is even a magazine named Kobe Girls about Kobe fashion—which is typically more classy than neighboring Osaka or Kyoto. -ChristopherMannMcKay 15:35, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I think in as much as what you discribe is the historical development of the city, these things could go under "History". The article already mentions how the opening of the port in 1868 led to the Westernization of the city. Anything that could flesh out that statement would really improve the article. And in as much as what you describe is visible today, it could go in the "culture" section. Some good ideas. I'd definitely try and find some sources before you add anything though. The article already has so many uncited statements. -- Exitmoose 07:20, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I suggest to creat the Kobe-fashion article.It was written about it already "神戸系ファッション","神戸コレクション" at wikipedia japanese ver..Since 19th,there are a few area at Kobe or Hanshin that live rich families,and The conservative culture that is flexible in the fashion created there.Kobe-fashion is one of them,I think.In this year(2007),this was held in Shanghai too.And sometimes,The Kingdom of Thailand invested.So I think this event is supported by not only companies but also other countrie.

Please tell me opinions.

by 219.9.130.62 : 19:20 3 Mar. 2007 (JST)

Meaning of "Kobe"

While fact checking the article's claim as to the etymology of "Kobe", I came across a much more commonly accepted meaning, which I've edited the article to reflect. In addition to the source in the article, the following sources also assume this meaning:

http://hometown.infocreate.co.jp/en/kinki/kobe/midoko-e.html http://www.ryuusenkaku.jp/navi/200602.html

If a reasonably academic source can be found to back up the "houses of shrine" etymology, we can put the two side by side, but the only one I was able to find was from a rather dubious travel agency site. -- Exitmoose 07:57, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Assessment

In order to progress past "B" class, the redlinks in this article need to be taken care of (preferably created). It may also be good to list the stations for each line (or the major stations in any case). ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 06:37, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Done and done. Should have been done earlier, but I took a Wikibreak. -- Exitmoose 07:33, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Kitano-cho

I've created the Kitano-cho article to reduce the number of redlinks, but it's still a stub. There's plenty of information in the references to flesh out the article, but I just don't have the time now. If you're looking for something to do, all the information is there, it just needs to be put in article form. -- Exitmoose 08:26, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

List of schools in Kobe

The "no list" tag has been on the education section for a few months now, so I moved the list of schools to its own article at List of schools in Kobe. I'm not so familiar with standard list format, so someone more knowledgable should look over the article and bring it up to standards. Also, the education section is now very small, and could use a bit of fleshing out. -- Exitmoose 00:33, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Request for Review

User:Exitmoose asked the community to review this article. Comments can go here.

Lists

The article has a lot of lists. These can be converted to prose and kept within the article. As an example, the list of wards can be rewritten with a description of each. The sentence can incorporate a fact about the ward, such as its location or size or a prominent landmark located in it. Or it can list a famous person who was born there, or an event that took place in the ward. Likewise, important educational institutions can be mentioned in the section on Education, which currently names only a foreign school (giving it undue weight). Summaries can be helpful ("The city operates xxx public schools."). There's a reference in the article on education in Kobe that can be used for a count. If the information is available, the total number of public-school students would be a valuable addition. Again, writing sentences presenting information about the institutions is preferable to long lists. Fg2 01:31, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Edited "education" section and expanded the "wards" section. Unfortunately, I can't find information on total number of high school students in Kobe. -- Exitmoose 02:30, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

International organizations

I don't see the location of a server for an obscure website being particularly worth note. Also, one of the institutes was merely a division of the Asian Disaster center, which itself was already noted in the research section. This left only one organization, hardly worth its own section. In any case, I think any further organizations should be added under the "Companies and Research" section. Furthermore, we just purged the article of lists, so let's try and avoid repopulating it with more. -- Exitmoose 01:20, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Automated peer review

Copied from Wikipedia:Peer review/Automated/October 2007

The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.

• Please expand the lead to conform with guidelines at Wikipedia:Lead. The article should have an appropriate number of paragraphs as is shown on WP:LEAD, and should adequately summarize the article.^[?]

Done. -- Exitmoose 08:17, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

• Consider removing links that add little to the article or that have been repeated in close proximity to other links to the same article, as per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (links) and WP:CONTEXT.^[?]

Done. -- Exitmoose 08:17, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

• Per Wikipedia:Context and Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates), months and days of the week generally should not be linked. Years, decades, and centuries can be linked if they provide context for the article.^[?]
• Avoid including galleries in articles, as per Wikipedia:Galleries. Common solutions to this problem include moving the gallery to wikicommons or integrating images with the text.^[?]
• Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (numbers), there should be a non-breaking space -   between a number and the unit of measurement. For example, instead of 931 meters, use 931 meters, which when you are editing the page, should look like: 931 meters.^[?]
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• Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (headings), headings generally should not repeat the title of the article. For example, if the article was Ferdinand Magellan, instead of using the heading ==Magellan's journey==, use ==Journey==.^[?]

Done. -- Exitmoose 08:17, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

• Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that it exemplifies some of Wikipedia's best work. See also User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a.^[?]

You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, APR _t 03:27, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Peer review suggestions

Copied from Wikipedia:Peer review/Kobe/archive1:

A really good start! I really like the steamboat woodcut, it's just outstanding and very relevant. Now for the comments:

• The intro seems a little short, and needs to adequately summarize the entire article. Should be written in more fluid prose and give a concise summary capable of standing by itself.

Done. -- Exitmoose 08:25, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

• "...and is a part of the Osaka-Kobe-Kyoto metropolitan sprawl..." probably needs a better choice of words.

Moved to a more appropriate location. -- Exitmoose 08:25, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

• "It was one of the first cities to open for trade with the West, in 1868, and as such it is known as a cosmopolitan port city." Say something about who they were trading with. Was it tea? Ceramics? Something else? BTW I know the Dutch were trading with japan in the mid 17th century, so might want to check facts on whether Kobe was really one of the first cities. And "it was one of the first cities (in Japan you mean?) to open for trade with the west..." try being specific here.

This section refers to the post-sakoku period. Reworded to make more clear. -- Exitmoose 08:25, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

• "...and as such it was known as a cosmopolitan port city." Again, needs rewording to make it flow. It is not entirely clear why a port city would be cosmopolitan. (Should insert something about how outside influences were transmitted by trade routes, and Kobe was city to be exposed to these changes first) and might say what kinds of changes were brought and by whom.
• "...a number of companies" how many? avoid the vague.

Done. -- Exitmoose 03:03, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

• "Kobe's history dates back to the 8th century when..." you mean AD, right?

Fixed. -- Exitmoose 08:25, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

• The history section needs a better lead and needs to copyedit to make it a coherent whole. Seems too short.

*Keep the woodcut picture, but I don't see why the Weathercock house img is important here. Also try a better caption on the woodcut, pointing out the steamboat as a vessel of trade.

Weathercock image is representative of Kitano area. Sadly can't find any pictures of Kobe earlier than post-Meiji. -- Exitmoose 08:25, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

• "Following the Meiji restoration..." flesh out this section more.
• "The history of Kobe is closely tied to that of the Ikuta Shrine, and..." you just talked about the history in origins, which didn't mention this, so move up to history.

Fixed. -- Exitmoose 03:03, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

• "...It was one of the most costly natural disasters in modern history." better watch out with a statement like this, esp not cited. Isn't every natural disaster nowadays "one of the most costly in history?"

Fixed. -- Exitmoose 08:25, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

• "Kobe has a population of 1,530,295..." in what year?

Fixed. -- Exitmoose 08:25, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

• "...the longest suspension bridge in the world." mention the length

Can't find a way to put it in without interrupting flow. In any case, the article itself is wikilinked if people want more information. -- Exitmoose 03:04, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

• "...encapsulated in the Japanese phrase, "If you can't go to Paris, go to Kobe." why not give the Japanese version followed by English translation?

Source is in English. In any case, the Japanese seems unnecessary. -- Exitmoose 08:25, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

• "...residences from the 19th century (see History)." inelegant phrasing.
• "Most of the movie Sayonara takes place in Kobe." why not "Most of the 1957 romantic drama Sayonara takes place in Kobe." and mention what scenes, what parts of kobe, and how does that choice of locale impact the plot of the movie.
• Is this the standard map used for Japanese city infoboxes?

Fixed. -- Exitmoose 08:25, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Otherwise good content, just needs to be more focused and emphasize more details about what kind of trading went through Kobe historically and how that shaped the city. Emphasize how Kobe being a port city made it more cosmopolitan and mention the impact on the city. The history section probably needs fleshing out too. Otherwise, an interesting article. Jeff Dahl 04:36, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

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Founding

History>Modern Era section, starts off "Kobe was founded on Christmas Halloween"... what? Is this a bad translation, or vandalism? —Preceding unsigned comment added by BryanJones (talk • contribs) 09:37, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

wrong number for 3/17/45 bombing casualties

Under History/Modern era, the number of dead from the March 17, 1945 American bombing should be 80,841, NOT 8,841. It's off by a factor of 10.

See the "Bombing of Kobe in WWII" entry.

71.37.188.50 (talk) 20:09, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Collage

Since so many Japanese cities already have a collage, I suggest one for Kobe.--RM (Be my friend) 15:19, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Timeline of Kobe

What is missing from the recently created city timeline article? Please add relevant content! Contributions welcome. Thank you. -- M2545 (talk) 14:19, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

1860s consul of Hyogo Port

I have just removed the following text from the "Origins to the Meiji era" section, as it is unsourced and I am having trouble verifying it:

Notably, the international settlement's resident consul under the Union Jack flag was one Frans Gerard Mijburg (Francis Gerard Myburg).

The Japanese wiki biography on William Willis (physician) briefly mentions the sudden death of the British consul マイバーグ (presumably the same Mijburg/Myburg mentioned above) in 1868. But I cannot find any further evidence that supports describing Myberg as a "notable consul". If the information could be sourced somehow, I'd be happy to see it restored in the article. AtHomeIn神戸 (talk) 01:54, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Kobe (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 17:49, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

Hatnote?

The city, while a primary topic, shares its name with a pretty famous celebrity in the english-speaking world. Would it be a good idea to add a hatnote redirecting to Kobe Bryant? Sincerely, Plutonical (talk) 17:56, 20 October 2021 (UTC)