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Talk:Joker (character)/Archive 6

< Talk:Joker (character)
Latest comment: 6 years ago by BD2412 in topic Requested move 14 April 2018
Archive 1 ← Archive 4 Archive 5 Archive 6 Archive 7 Archive 8

Requested move 17 April 2017

Latest comment: 7 years ago38 comments12 people in discussion
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: I am calling consensus for a move. I have moved the previous article at this title to Draft:Joker (character) to preserve history and in case there is anything to merge. Some people suggested The Joker as a possible target but this wasn't enough discussion to form a consensus on this issue, so perhaps a future discussion can consider that. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 10:15, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

Joker (comics) → Joker (character) – per the updated changes at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (comics) Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 14:37, 17 April 2017 (UTC)--Relisting. TonyBallioni (talk) 20:24, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 14:49, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
  • @Darkwarriorblake: Joker (comics) and Joker (character) both have many text edits and are WP:Parallel histories and are about the same character. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 14:49, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
  • Support The Joker - everyone calls him "The Joker". Unreal7 (talk) 18:22, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
  • Support per the updated MOS, this article should be at Joker (character). The material currently at that location is largely a duplication of this article and was created to satisfy User:Curly Turkey at an FAC nomination. The need for both articles has been contested and is what originally prompted the MOS update. Argento Surfer (talk) 18:39, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
  • Conditional support depending on the focus issues that have been debated ad nauseam—if the article is to be DABbed (character) it must focus on the character as a character and give no more weight to any media incarnation than is WP:DUE. The success of a move here cannot be interpreted as being a consensus that whatever content happens to currently be in the article consititutes what the character is.
    Argento Surfer, could we please stop spinning this as if I were responsible for there being two articles, or that "duplication" were ever the point of having two articles? I'm far from the only objector (even at FAC), and nobody demanded two articles—that was DWB's decision. Nobody's going to buy the idea that I have the social clout around here to merely "get my way" in these disputes—the issues raised are serious, site-wide, and as-yet unresolved. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 22:45, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ No disrespect meant CT - I was trying to provided a brief history of the DAB/second article for Anthony Appleyard. I name dropped you specifically because you've been so involved with the issue. I didn't want you to be left out of this discussion too. Argento Surfer (talk) 12:38, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
It's all my choice, but you're making your support conditional on you getting your way. Again. You did demand two articles, you wanted one for the comic character and one for the character, and everyone has tried to delete the resulting character one because it was pointless and the comic character was the character. The comic character is the character, everything else is derivative and virtually identical and other versions are mentioned wher enecessary and other articles focus on other versions of the character. You've been told this a thousand times and you blatantly ignore it each time then obstruct any progress. But no, it's not about getting your way or your view being the only correct view despite others disagreeing with you. You can't even just support a move here, you have to have to try and position it as resulting in you getting what you want. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 17:23, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
Can we please not do this again? It's a simple move request. Argento Surfer (talk) 17:28, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
You're only making a fool of yourself, Darkwarriorblake. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 22:21, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
Oppose until all issues are sorted. I've changed from "conditional support" due to the requester's comment: "The comic character is the character", which makes it obvious that this will continue to be a problem. This move cannot be allowed to set a bad precedent, which it now seems clear to be part of the intent. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 23:01, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
The precedent was set by Wolverine (character) Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 11:09, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
"so the precedent is set"—which precedent is that? That WP:COMICS gets to unilaterally decide that fictional character articles can give precedence to the comics incarnations of characters? Yes, this article will have to be moved; no, this move will not be allowed to set a problematic precedent. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 11:27, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
  • Support, since the article seems to cover his TV and movie incarnations.Herostratus (talk) 02:31, 25 April 2017 (UTC) Changed my vote based on new info below. Herostratus (talk) 16:34, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
  • OMGWTF you guys should lay off the Mary Jane and/or crack cocaine as applicable. Joker (character) is a different article, not a different title for this one. You have to get its editors involved in the discussion - maybe you want to merge them? Lois Lane vs Mary Jane (talk) 11:42, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
Oh sheesh, did not see that. Changed my vote. Herostratus (talk) 16:34, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose, and let's get to work instead. Don't know / no opinion. Joker (character) already exists! And we cannot move an article over an existing article. So this is quite a dog's breakfast. We could merge the two articles, but dunno about that since that would make a kind of long article. Since there exists the article Joker in other media, which has sections "Live action" and "Animation" and "Video games", wouldn't it make sense to move the non-comics material to that article (maybe some going to Joker (character)) and then keep this article under its current name? Herostratus (talk) 16:34, 25 April 2017 (UTC) Struck my vote, apparently there are shenangins going on around here, and it's above my pay grade to deal with stuff like this. Herostratus (talk) 16:45, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
Herostratus, ignore Lois Lane V Mary Jane, Joker character was created after Joker comics and is essentially a list, the only pertinent information is already here and all the information has been backed up. It's still about the same character, it just needs moving there. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 16:42, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
Oh OK. Well in that case, I don't know what's going on, and I can't really help you guys. The Joker has a large populated category.... maybe what you guys need to do is form Wikiproject:Joker and work all this stuff out. Herostratus (talk) 16:45, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
That article was made by someone trying to force their vision and is honestly a giant waste of space. It should simply have been deleted.★Trekker (talk) 11:33, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
That's not true. There is no major OWN issue among the majority of the project members, sure there are some but a lot simply disagreed with your opinion as well as decision to defend an utterly superfluous article. It would be nice if you stopped blaming the project for issues with disambiguation and stopped playing the victim so much. You had a lot of people against you from the start because of your condescending attitude which you've clearly not loosened up on, maybe if you had acted in a more mature way more people would have been willing to engage in a discussion which led somewhere, but I'm sure that a lot were scared away becuse of the trainwreck which some editors made the disscussion into.★Trekker (talk) 11:25, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
WP:COMICS has longstanding WP:OWNership and WP:LOCALCONSENSUS issues with fictional character articles. Like-minded editors ganging up to "disagree" that WP:COMICS cannot take WP:OWNership of articles means nothing, as Wikipedia is not WP:NOTADEMOCRACY. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 11:34, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Prove it. I see no evidence of this being true. You keep claiming this repeatedly but where is the wide acceptance among wikipedians that the project is that way, has there been a disscusion on this on a wider scale or is it just you? I left the earlier debate because of the toxic environment, which you were very much part of from what I saw, so maybe I missed out on the grand consensus among noncomics people that the project is that way.★Trekker (talk) 11:47, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
CT, I don't have a link, but at some point I got the impression you felt the (comics) DAB implied ownership, but that it was not purposeful ownership. I never agreed with that, but I understood the point and took the time to start the discussion to change the MOS. Reviewing that discussion, most editors agreed it needed to be changed (although there was some tweaking in the "how"). I don't see where anyone made comments that could be construed as ownership. Aside from DWB's comment about "the comic character is the character", can you link to a diff from another editor showing this ownership viewpoint? Otherwise, you're disparaging an entire project of good faith editors without cause and painting yourself as some lone underdog fighting the unreasonable masses. When you do that, it makes it hard for anyone to work with you.
You've shown you're unable to drop the stick on this topic - This is a simple move request to bring the article in line with the new MOS guidelines that you participated in updating. At that time, you specifically requested that articles on characters from comics be dabbed as (character) over (comics character), although you also suggested "Character X in comics". Arguing against the move now AND bringing up the same old content concerns is disruptive and antagonizing. If you think the content gives undue weight to the comics version of the character, then support the move and slap an Undue weight template on it. If you can't do that, then at least be constructive here. Even you have to agree that (comics) is not the proper DAB for this article. Make an alternate suggestion that doesn't involve anything but a page name. Argento Surfer (talk) 13:13, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
  • Support For what it's worth I say delete the current Joker (character) "article" since it has nothing of value and move this one there. It becomes simpler disambiguation wise.★Trekker (talk) 11:50, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
  • Lois says: Oppose, (comics) is not the WP:primary topic and doesn't belong at the highest level. The primary topic is The Joker in general and his most notable incarnations in whatever media. Mary Jane also points out that the appropriate title for the primary topic is The Joker as WP:COMMONNAME and WP:Natural disambiguation. Lois also says strong trainwreck because you can't delete articles without tagging them. @Herostratus: does this make sense to you? Lois Lane vs Mary Jane (talk) 02:02, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
It'd be really handy if people read the article before commenting. The article covers all incarnations of the joker it just breaks off to other articles to cover them in greater detail than can be accomplished in a single article, and on top of there being completely separate articles for the joker in other media, other versions of the comic joker, and the dark knight joker, there is Joker (disambiguation) which serves the same function as the current Joker (character) in being a list to joker articles. There is nothing to merge from Joker (character) because it's all already here. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 06:21, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
@Darkwarriorblake: (Lois) You seem to be saying this is a suitable article for the highest level? But actually the highest level should be a overview of the Joker's background and his most notable incarnations, not every.last.one. of them. (Mary Jane) sorry, tl;dr + full of spoilers Lois Lane vs Mary Jane (talk) 06:20, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
Shut up, Lois. Nobody's allowed to believe that but me. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 23:24, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Support. Thought this was all dealt with as per the original discussion. Most of the stuff at the character page is better dealt with at the comics page. If we need to split off a page just for the comics version, then that can remain as Joker (comics). --Killer Moff (talk) 10:34, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
No, Joker (comics) shouldn't be anything other than a DAB because of Joker (comic book), Joker (graphic novel), and Joker (comic strip). I think Joker (comic character) could be a workable split from a Joker (character) article, though. Argento Surfer (talk) 12:39, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
  • Support in the sense that Joker (character) is a better title for the article, and there doesn't need to be a separate article for iterations of Joker (character) in comics specifically. Merge necessary info into the broader article and be done with it.--Cúchullain t/c 18:21, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Move to The Joker (merging as necessary). No need to have two articles on the same character. Regarding The Joker vs Joker (character), WP:THE applies. Note that while showing a clear majority usage of a term with the definite article is typically the key requirement for WP:THE, the convention has this bit In general, a definite ("the") or indefinite ("a"/"an") article should be included at the beginning of the title of a Wikipedia article only if at least one of the following conditions is met: 1. If a word with a definite article has a different meaning with respect to the same word without the article. That clearly applies in this case, combined with Naturalness from WP:CRITERIA implies that the article should be at The Joker. PaleAqua (talk) 04:08, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Semi-protected edit request on 6 May 2017

Latest comment: 7 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

When you Google search "Joker", it shows that he is a "fictional superhero", but he is a fictional villain... 96.233.152.9 (talk) 16:13, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

This isn't anything to do with the article, it's Google.Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 16:28, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 April 2017

Latest comment: 7 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

He needs to be in the Narcissism in fiction category because he believes he's the only man qualified to kill Batman. 73.215.98.136 (talk) 04:03, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

  Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit protected}} template. Is this a widely held literary viewpoint? We cannot include original research or criticism. Altamel (talk) 04:54, 23 May 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

Latest comment: 6 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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Joker powers

Latest comment: 6 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

I don't know what happened my previous discussion about this issue, but I am brining it back. My argument is that in the skills and equipment section of the page, in the last paragraph it talks about Joker being a skilled melee fighter. In an article by Screen Rant, it lists the many powers of the Joker. In it says that he's immune to poison/toxins. A quote of one the comics writers explaining his power, "In the story arc The Clown at Midnight (Batman #663), writer Grant Morrison briefly explains why the Joker is immune not only to his toxins but to poison in general: “An avid consumer of his own chemical experiments, the Joker’s immunity to poison concoctions that might kill another man in an instant has been developed over years of dedicated abuse.” In other words, the Joker underwent a drastic, bizarre form of immunotherapy. He explained why the Joker is immune to toxins/poison and proves he does have it. This is his power, no different than Harley Quinn.Xtremeroller (talk) 00:53, 10 July 2017 (UTC) http://screenrant.com/joker-superpowers-abilities-dc-comics-batman-villain/

Existing discussion, please continue any responses there Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 17:03, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

"April 25, 1940"

Latest comment: 6 years ago12 comments3 people in discussion

First of all, WikiProject Comics MOS is to give the cover date, not the publication date. We can say something like "(cover-dated Spring 1940, published April 25, 1940)" — but there doesn't appear to be any WP:RS cite for that April 25 date. MTV, which is not necessarily the most RS for Golden Age of Comic Books history, is the only mainstream source claiming this, which makes it WP:FRINGE that appears to have then showed up in blogs, Pinterest posts and other non-RS.

I've looked in several books, including DC Comics' own Sixty Years of the World's Favorite Superheroes, Mike Benton's The Comic Book in America, Gerard Jones Men of Tomorrow and N.C. Christopher Couch's Jerry Robinson biography, and not one of them — nor the Grand Comics Database, which usually carries these things — makes any mention of that date whatsoever. It may well be correct — but where did it originate? When authoritative books, including DC's own official one, don't give that date and it appears in one place only, that's a red flag. --Tenebrae (talk) 14:52, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Comics at that time didn't have release dates. They just got displayed when they arrived at newsstands. Argento Surfer (talk) 15:06, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
Well what do you know... Argento Surfer (talk) 15:29, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
If we have the exact date I don't see the problem with using it, in fact the exact date is there because a reviewer took issue with it last time I took the article to FA. I also don't see the problem with using Cracked for what is a non-controversial purpose. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 17:12, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
An advertising flyer isn't necessarily evidence that it came out on that date — if you go to Detective Comics, you'll see an ad saying the first issue would be out with a December 1936 cover date (rather than the eventual March 1937). This is one reason WikiProject Comics doesn't allow comics-company solicitations to be used as reference sources. About the only thing we could use is a Copyright Office filing, as I believe the project has cited in the past.
As for Cracked, that was the subject of a discussion sometime back, and among other things, it's WP:USERGENERATED. --Tenebrae (talk) 22:48, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
But at the same time, there is a source saying April 25, 1940 and a flyer saying April 25, 1940, and no sources saying that either source is incorrect. I also feel that maybe we should have had this discussion before removing the sources/information, since you removing the Cracked reference means I no longer know what is sourced and what isn't. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 22:52, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
We're old colleagues and you're responsible and show good judgment and I wouldn't revert you though I think in this case it would be a mistake to re-add it, given that of all the countless histories of comics, no one -- and Gerard Jones (Men of Tomorrow) would have had access to that same flyer -- appears to have given that date except MTV and non-RS sites. That's a red flag to me, and since there's WP:NODEADLINE and it's not critically vital information to understand the subject, I'm hoping you're amenable to working with me to research it and see if we can concretely find a way to say this as fact. --Tenebrae (talk) 22:59, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
I'll try to find an alternative to the Cracked article, but I do trust the April 25 date, and with the flyer Argento found, I think that it's kind of on the opposing side to prove otherwise. If you know how to search copyright databases though, please do. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 23:07, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
Well, no, because you're asking me to prove a negative: "Prove it wasn't published on April 25, 1940." The flyer is a solicitation, which WPC guidelines disallow as a reference source. And since MTV is the only place claiming this, that strikes me as WP:FRINGE. I'm curious why the fact that this date appears in no reputable history of comics — no book, not even from DC itself — that this isn't of concern. DC certainly knows this flyer exists — and yet DC itself doesn't give that date. Maybe we'll need to RfC this?--Tenebrae (talk) 23:14, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
Is there an easily accessible copyright database? Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 23:22, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
I've been unable to find one. It's how the pub date for Action #1 was verified, but it's more widely accessible because it was relevant to copyright suits surrounding Superman. No one ever disputed Joker's copyright. Argento Surfer (talk) 12:51, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
I've found a few other sources, although some of them are of debatable reliability. Argento Surfer (talk) 12:51, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Three Jokers

Latest comment: 6 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The events of DC Rebirth reveal that within DC Comics current continuity, there are three separate Jokers:

1. The Golden Age Joker - The Super-Sane Master Criminal 2. The Silver Age Joker - The Crazy Prankster 3. The New 52 Joker - The Utter Sociopath.

Now, The New 52 Joker has yet to appear in DC Rebirth, having been left amnesiac and sane following his revival in Batman #50. This Joker's name HAS been given, back in . Batman: White Knight will revelations of the other two Jokers as Jack Napier, leaving the third unnamed.

Jerome Valeska Joker (talk) 20:02, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Could someone add this or something similar to Biography?

Latest comment: 6 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

It is revealed that Bruce Wayne had been exposed to the Dionesium pool being restored to life with no memory of his previous life. While sitting on a park bench (with everything about having been Batman revealed to him by Alfred Pennyworth) he meets a stranger who smiles a lot (It is heavily implied that this is the Joker who has no real memory of who either of them was). While this is all going on Gotham in under siege by an onslaught created by a criminal known as Mister Bloom who Batman had faced before. Thanks to his is talk with the smiling stranger Bruce Wayne realizes he is Batman and forces Alfred Pennyworth to restore to use a machine Batman designed to turn a clone of him into the next Batman.

During the Darkseid War the restored Batman acquires the Mobius Chair and asks "What's the Joker's real name?" and the response causes him to say "No that is not possible." He later tells Hal that the chair told him there were three Jokers. Durning DC Universe - Rebirth #1 it is confirmed that there are at least two Jokers: one killing people in Civic City while the other was in transit between Baltimore and Arkham Asylum.", the third Joker, the New 52 incarnation, remains memory-less stranger, identified in early New 52 media as "Alby Shader". From the looks of the artwork, it appears that the three jokers include the original, Jerry Robinson Joker; the Brian Bolland Killing Joke Joker; and the Scott Snyder/Greg Capullo "New 52" Joker. In Dark Knights Metal #1, Batman is revealed to be keeping one of the three Jokers

Rowan North (talk) 01:00, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

It's not a biographical article and there is limited space, so until we know wthe long term outcome and impact on the character, it doesn't belong here and can go in the Darkseid war article. The first part is pretty much all about Batman and nothing to do with this character, while again the smiling stranger on the bench, we don't know the long term outcome so it has had no impact on the character yet. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 08:36, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

Category:Fictional victims of child abuse

Latest comment: 6 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion

Is it safe to put this article in the category Category:Fictional victims of child abuse? He mentioned how he hated his father in The Dark Knight (film) and other websites and wikias say his father was a abusive alcoholic father. --107.19.136.29 (talk) 18:30, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

No, because it isn't primarily about the film character and it's one of like three origins he gives so it's not even possible to say it's true. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 18:41, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
Hating your father doesn't make you a victim of child abuse... Argento Surfer (talk) 14:07, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 January 2018

Latest comment: 6 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Please add him in Narcissism in Fiction. 2601:8C:4500:4211:80:2AFB:7636:37AE (talk) 03:20, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

  Not done: It's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Thank you, Hiàn (talk) 03:21, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Joker (Batman)

Latest comment: 6 years ago10 comments5 people in discussion

Why isn't this article titled with (Batman) given there are other Jokers at the dab page? In ictu oculi (talk) 18:16, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

Not least Joker (comic strip), and others nothing to do with Batman. In ictu oculi (talk) 10:39, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
After long debates both in this page's archives and at other locations, the consensus was that this page is the primary topic for Joker (character). You can always open a new discussion, but I strongly suggest having a strong (new) argument paired with it. Argento Surfer (talk) 13:12, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
@Argento Surfer: I looked in archives. You are correct. But it seems some editors were not aware that WP:DISAMBIGUATION guideline does not allow any parenthetically disambiguated term, e.g. (film) (song) etc., to have a WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Once a term is disambiguated it must be clear against other topics. As it stands Joker (character) seems to be against the WP:DISAMBIGUATION guideline. Further it seems the vanilla (character) is mainly for use when the series is eponymous with the character, or more rarely, where there is more than one series/franchise for an overlapping character. In ictu oculi (talk) 10:16, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
Like I said, you're welcome to open a new discussion. There were a lot of people who were not happy about it being parked at (character). Argento Surfer (talk) 13:46, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
The Joker DC Comics character is the primary topic. The others are nowhere near as notable, and most don't even have articles. It's not unreasonable to expect someone searching for the Joker to be coming here. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 14:35, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
Thanks Argento, may well do. Darkwarrior actually some do have articles, an guideline states no WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for parenthetically dabbed articles. There is no such thing as primary (footballer) primary (character) primary (whatever); the guideline does not allow that. Plus in this case WP:NCVGDAB #7 specifically advises using the series name as a disambiguator. In ictu oculi (talk) 17:40, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
I agree that we should move this article to just Joker. It's overwhelmingly the primary topic (unlike something like Dream (comics) or Penguin (character)). JOEBRO64 20:59, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
It would make more sense to move Joker (playing card) as primary topic than this one; the later is named after the former, after all. Joker (character) has problems with WP:PRECISION for not being totally unambiguous, but at least it follows the conventions of the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (comics) guideline at WP:NCCDAB. Diego (talk) 09:50, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
My preference was always Joker (comics character), since this article is about the comic character specifically. Joker (Batman) is too imprecise, since there are about 14 different comics, tv series, and films sharing that exact title and because Batman isn't the only comic book which features the Joker. Argento Surfer (talk) 13:58, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 5 April 2018

Latest comment: 6 years ago18 comments14 people in discussion
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by page mover) GeoffreyT2000 (talk) 00:43, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

Joker (character) → The Joker – Per WP:THE, he is recognized as "The Joker" in many sources. In the case of prevailing common use, "The" can be used in titles. I'd call this prevailing use, and it is also a more WP:NATURAL name. ZXCVBNM (TALK) 17:54, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

  • Previous request to move to this title at Talk:Joker (character)/Archive 4#Requested move. Dekimasuよ! 18:06, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
    Actually, more recent than that. There was an RM discussion last year as seen here. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 18:30, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
    I linked the discussion that was explicitly about moving to the title "The Joker." There have been other subsequent discussions, as you noted. Dekimasuよ! 20:22, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose The playing card is also often referred to with "The" Argento Surfer (talk) 19:01, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
    • As was mentioned by User:ONR, the card is called "Joker". As in, "a Joker card", not "The Joker". If what you are saying is true, it would be located at The Joker (playing card).ZXCVBNM (TALK) 19:35, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
      • Joker (playing card) uses the phrase "the joker" 22 times. It uses "a joker" 3 times. Also, using the current name of a Wikipedia article as evidence for its common name is pretty odd coming from the guy proposing another article be renamed... Argento Surfer (talk) 20:07, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
        • Comment (not actually !voting): this is basic grammar—one would also say "a Joker graphic novel" or "a Joker scheme". Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 21:40, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Support move. The playing card is not often referred to as "The Joker" (as a proper noun including the "the"), so there is no conflict there. ONR (talk) 19:07, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Argento Surfer. JOEBRO64 19:08, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose per previous discussions. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 20:07, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose - As iconic as the character is, they are named after a playing card that is arguably just as applicable. Plus, getting this article from Joker (comics) to Joker (character) came from a lengthy discussion and DAB alterations in itself. DarkKnight2149 22:23, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose and suggest The Joker (DC Comics) - As for WP:THE issue, I can't see this character as being handled any different than The Doctor (Doctor Who), with the "The" being prevailing common use. I just do not see this character being the primary topic, though, so disambiguation is needed between both other titles and also other characters named "The Joker". For that, I refer to WP:NCCOMICS#Between characters of different publishers which suggests using the publisher for disambiguation. The Joker (character) and Joker (character) are incomplete disambiguation and should be redirected to the DAB page (Joker#Fictional characters) once all the incoming links are adjusted to point to the article's new title. -- Netoholic @ 03:27, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose but argee with Netoholic's suggestion to move to The Joker (DC Comics). It would match other article titles such as Captain Marvel (DC Comics). Rreagan007 (talk) 15:57, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose move to The Joker (DC Comics) - Per WP:OTHERSTUFF. Captain Marvel (DC Comics) is likely to be confused with the equally applicable Marvel Universe characters of the same name. There were extensive discussions regarding naming conventions that led to this article being disambiguated as (Character). That is generally the proper disambiguation, especially when there is a DC comic book series called The Joker, a DC graphic novel called Joker, an upcoming film adaptation, an unrelated comic strip, and no character from other publishers called The Joker that's as applicable or easy to be confused with the Batman villain. DarkKnight2149 17:43, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Opposeoriginal move request and also suggestion to move to The Joker (DC Comics). Wikipedia MOS for article titles is very clear that the definite article "The" is not used: Hulk (comics), Flash (comics), Spirit (comics), etc. all follow MOS. --Tenebrae (talk) 22:10, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose. I think "The Joker" should continue to redirect here, but the title should remain the same. I think, per WP:THE#Other uses, "the" should be included only when it is always included with virtually no exceptions. This is the case with The Doctor (Doctor Who), but even just quickly googling "Joker", you'll find a few cases where "the" is omitted": [1]. –IagoQnsi (talk) 01:11, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 14 April 2018

Latest comment: 6 years ago23 comments9 people in discussion
The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Not moved. There is a clear consensus against the proposed move. bd2412 T 17:07, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

Joker (character) → Joker (DC Comics) – The current page title is ambiguous due to a large roster of other characters named "(The) Joker" listed at Joker#Fictional characters. WP:NCCOMICS#Between characters of different publishers directs us to use the publisher as the disambiguation when there are multiple characters that use the same name. After fixing links, Joker (character) and The Joker (character) should redirect to the disambig page section. -- Netoholic @ 05:19, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

  • Oppose to avoid disambiguation with publications called "Joker" from DC Comics. Argento Surfer (talk) 15:16, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
Those guidelines were revised about a year ago specifically because of all the different Joker articles. The overwhelming consensus through multiple move requests has been (character). We just closed another one a few days ago. Argento Surfer (talk) 16:04, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
The recent RM was about the inclusion of "The" to the title. This is different. -- Netoholic @ 16:34, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
You suggested this DAB in the discussion above. It was specifically supported by one and opposed by two. Other comments not directly addressing your suggestion supported the current location. Argento Surfer (talk) 18:29, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
That suggestion included the "The". It is a different recommendation than the one here. -- Netoholic @ 11:07, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
  • @Katolophyromai and Curly Turkey: WP:PRIMARYTOPIC only applies to undisambiguated titles like Joker - not to articles which are disambiguated like this one. Once it is decided that an article is to be disambiguated, then we must follow WP:INCDAB and ensure that the disambiguation doesn't itself remain ambiguous. In this case, there are multiple characters that exist named "Joker", so we must ensure the disambiguation used is clearly referencing the subject. -- Netoholic @ 11:07, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
@Netoholic: In that case, you should be trying to move the page to "Joker (Batman villian)" rather than "Joker (DC Comics)" since, as others have pointed out above, that title could also refer to various DC comic books entitled Joker. --Katolophyromai (talk) 12:33, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
Netoholic: (a) I don't see where WP:PRIMARYTOPIC says what you're saying; (b) there is no other Joker (character) article to DAB from—we need further disambiguation only when there are multiple articles in conflict. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 21:09, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose - For the precise reasons I opposed this when it was first suggested in the move discussion directly above this one: "There were extensive discussions regarding naming conventions that led to this article being disambiguated as (Character). That is generally the proper disambiguation, especially when there is a DC comic book series called The Joker, a DC graphic novel called Joker, an upcoming film adaptation, an unrelated comic strip, and no character from other publishers called The Joker that's as applicable or easy to be confused with the Batman villain.." DarkKnight2149 17:49, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Support a move away from the current title per WP:INCDAB. Joker (character) is clearly ambiguous per the guideline. This request won't go through, but it is valid. Dekimasuよ! 01:35, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
@Dekimasu: There is nothing ambiguous about Joker (character), which is actually the proper title per WP:NCCDAB, seeing as he is the only applicable comics character called "The Joker"... Or character in general. This is also the primary page about the character, as Joker in other media and Alternative versions of Joker both branch off of this article. DarkKnight2149 19:55, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
There are over 15 other characters called Joker shown at Joker. Therefore, the current title fails WP:PRECISION, the directive that "titles should be precise enough to unambiguously define the topical scope of the article." Dekimasuよ! 20:14, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
None of whom are applicable. Nearly all of them are minor characters who don't even have their own articles or are adaptations of this character (which this is the hub article for). As it stands, anyone searching for Joker (character) is almost certainly looking for the Batman villain. DarkKnight2149 21:17, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
None of the characters I referred to is an adaptation of this character. Dekimasuよ! 21:46, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
I already made this point above, Dekimasu: there isn't actually another article on a character named "Joker" (except for th esub-article Joker (The Dark Knight)), and WP does not do preemptive disambiguations. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 21:29, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
There is inconsistency in the guidelines, and I'm not sure why this hasn't been closed already. However, the top of Wikipedia:Disambiguation states, "Disambiguation in Wikipedia is the process of resolving conflicts that arise when a potential article title is ambiguous, most often because it refers to more than one subject covered by Wikipedia, either as the main topic of an article, or as a subtopic covered by an article in addition to the article's main topic" (emphasis mine). Further, Wikipedia:Disambiguation#Primary topic when a disambiguation page lists only one existing article by that name states, "When a disambiguation page lists only one existing article by that name... the normal rules for determining the primary topic still apply. The existing article does not automatically become the primary topic." This does not necessarily indicate that there can be no primary topic for Joker (character) or that this article is not the primary topic, but it is in this light that WP:INCDAB ("When a more specific title is still ambiguous, but not enough so to call for double disambiguation, it should redirect back to the main disambiguation page (or a section of it)") can be read to indicate that we should not use Joker (character). The formulation of the title is "Title (disambiguator)"; the disambiguator is not a part of the title itself, so if there is no primary topic for Joker, there is also ipso facto no primary topic for Joker (ambiguous disambiguator). Most likely, Joker (character) could also be treated under WP:DDAB and made its own disambiguation page. The only indication that we should not disambiguate this way of which I am aware is the one currently being discussed at Talk:One Kiss (song): an RfC result about WP:DABMENTION, here. Dekimasuよ! 11:35, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose. In this case we're stuck choosing between imperfect disambiguators. However, I think this is the best bet. I understand Dekimasu's issue about other characters above, but I don't see that any have their own articles, which mitigates the concern somewhat. The proposed title would conflict with things like Joker (graphic novel) and The Joker (comic book) (which themselves have non-optimal disambiguators).--Cúchullain t/c 14:23, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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