Talk:Independence Day (United States)/Archive 1

Who calls it America Day?

I have never heard of this. 100% of everyone I know (Americans anyway) call it "The Fourth" or "The Fourth of July."

I've moved this article because:

• Fourth of July is a nickname, and is not country-specific. (It should remain as a simple redirect until we find another July 4 event worth disambiguating.)
• The official name of the holiday is Independence Day
• The parens strictly identify it as the American In. Day
• It makes Independence Day a standard disambiguation page, which is a Good Thing.

It also gives me warm feelings to think of all those Independence Days lined up in a row. :-)

Somercet 04:48, Jul 5, 2004 (UTC)

)Disambiguated titles are icky. We use common names whenever possible, and Fourth of July is common. It's clearly different from July 4 since wikipedia date pages are standardized. --Jiang 20:04, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

):)Well, it's now moot, as another Wikipedian has created another sort for the holidays. I think using the full country name rather than the two-letter country code is bulky, but... Somercet 05:57, Nov 6, 2004 (UTC)

colorful little anecdotes

Should this article really include nathan's hot dog eating contest? It's not really a part of any traditional celebrations of July fourth that I know of. My grandpa used to make us waffles on July Fourth, but that's not encyclopedic either. I propose we delete that colorful little anecdote but I wanted to get some concurrence first. MPS 19:00, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))No, this is a big deal in New York City and all over the media. This is a short article and should have more on different celebrations and events through history. I actually wrote a whole section before on 'July 4 in history' which was unfortunately lost due to computer problems.--Pharos 19:12, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Observed by Danes?

Is this vandalism, or something I'm not getting? There's nothing on Holidays in Denmark... Radagast 17:04, May 26, 2005 (UTC)

I don't know if you would say that the 4th of July is 'observed' by Danes - it's not an official holiday. In any case, you may find the background in this brief statement. Alfons Åberg (talk) 12:18, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Paid or Unpaid?

Is July 4th a paid or unpaid holiday? An anon changed it, and I decided to rv it. Which one is it? Thanks, Flcelloguy | A note? | Desk 22:21, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

It is paid if you are a full-time employee. A.S. Williams 17:10, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

It depends on the policy of the company that you work for. Most companies will give full-time employees a paid holiday for 4th of July, at least if it falls on a day that the employee is normally scheduled to work. Most companies do not give a paid holiday to part time employees, but again, it depends on the company's policy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.184.64.197 (talk) 03:02, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Holidays

You may be interested in the WikiProject, WikiProject Holidays, a WikiProject that will focus on standardizing articles about Holidays. It has been around for quite some time, but I'm starting it up again, and would like to see some more members around the help out. Cheers. — Ilγαηερ (Tαlκ) 21:08, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Pardon my ignorance, but is Independence Day always celebrated on 4th July, or is it shifted to give people a long weekend? DJ Clayworth 15:51, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Both. The fireworks are always July 4, but if it's a weekend, many people get a long weekend anyway. Same for Christmas and New Years, in my American experience. Art LaPella 01:00, August 29, 2005 (UTC)

• That is not true, and I've lived in the US my entire life. The holiday is always observed on July 4, no matter what day of the week it falls on. I have never seen it shifted. If it falls on Sunday, some people may get off Monday, July 5 in lieu of the holiday, but the holiday itself is not shifted. If it falls on Saturday, some people may get off Friday, July 3 (or possibly, but less commonly, Monday, July 6), but that is not as common as when it falls on a Sunday. If it falls on a Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday, then you don't get a long weekend, unless you use vacation time. If it falls on a Tuesday or Thursday, the closest weekend is still often referred to as 4th of July weekend, even though it includes a work day.

And, you are also wrong about Christmas and New Years. They are treated exactly the same as 4th of July, and are always Dec. 25 and Jan. 1, no matter what day of the week they fall on. And everything else that I said about 4th of July also applies to Christmas and New Years. The only difference is that since Christmas and New Years are a week apart, many people may take off the entire week in between the 2 holidays. And many people may take off at least a half day on Dec. 24 or Dec. 31 if they fall on weekdays, but are more likely to work a full day on July 3 when it falls on a weekday.

Also, some businesses (mostly factories) may close the entire week of 4th of July and the entire week between Christmas and New Years, rather than giving employees vacation time (they may give a small number of personal days in addition to those 2 weeks). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.184.64.197 (talk) 04:27, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Oldest Celebration?

I have been told the town of Bristol, Rhode Island has been celebrating this continually since 1785.

Sources: The White House, United States, Preserve America http://www.preserveamerica.gov/3-18-04PAcommunity-bristolRI.html

U.S. State Department: http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/holidays/july4/mccabe.htm

This debate has gone on for years and I'm sure we could continue it for years:

http://www.americaslibrary.gov/cgi-bin/page.cgi/es/in/pekin_1

From http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:WBT8FiWotv0J:vh80015.vh8.infi.net/localnews/2004/07/02in/B1-moss07020-8072.html+pekin+indiana+Bristol+Rhode+Island+fourth+of+july:

"If anyone can quell doubt it is MarjiAnn Souder, a local historian and, for that matter, a rider in a 1950 Plymouth in Monday's parade."

"Souder realizes the celebration in Bristol, R.I. — three weeks of events — is older. It first was held in 1785. She contends, however, that Bristol's own documents suggest gaps — years, particularly during wartimes, when parading apparently was put off. She has uncovered no such postponements here at home."

"Souder has scoured newspapers and documents, has talked with old-timers and has concluded her community's boast is believable."

"I'm convinced personally that we've never missed one since at least the 1830s," she said.

From http://www.fettes.com/history/ffcinc/Bristol%20Parade.htm:

"From the year 1785 to the present time, the anniversary of American Independence has, with few exceptions, been duly observed by military parades, orations, and public processions."

"Extensive research of public records yields no information for seven years (1827-1833), of names of Chief Marshals or anything else that would indicate there were official town-organized parades. But documentation reveals that, with only few exceptions since 1834, a parade has been part of the Bristol Fourth. Evidence exists to demonstrate that the several years since 1834 when there were no parades, were years when the country was experiencing hard economic times, or when a lack of funds may have been a reason to cancel the official parade. Another exception to the annual parade was in 1881. The elaborate celebration planned for the day was not held because of the shocking assassination of President Garfield. The resulting feeling of respect due the Chief Executive forced the town to cancel that year's festivities."

"Between 1815 and 1850, the Town Council did not always appoint an official committee for arrangements; sometimes, there were non-official celebrations and parades and at other times there were no celebrations. This may seem a contradiction to the statement about an annual observance since 1785; but, patriotic ceremonies with prayers of thanksgiving have always taken place."

Response
The person who is arguing against Bristol as the town with the oldest continuing Fourth of July celebration seems to be forgetting <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NPOV">NPOV</a>. The link provided by the Indiana advocate:

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:WBT8FiWotv0J:vh80015.vh8.infi.net/localnews/2004/07/02in/B1-moss07020-8072.html+pekin+indiana+Bristol+Rhode+Island+fourth+of+july:

The link above is clearly not NPOV. Neither are the quotations that are cited in the above link representing a NPOV. On the other hand, the U.S. State Department and the U.S. White House's Preserve America links can be reasonably accepted as NPOV in this particular matter, and they both recognize Bristol, Rhode Island instead. The person alleging that the U.S. government is mistaken in this matter needs to provide more substantive evidence.

Also, the fettes.com site provided by the advocate of Indiana, links to a small school in Scotland, which sent a band for the Bristol, Rhode Island Fourth of July parade one year in Bristol, Rhode Island's. Fettes is not a recognized authority on the history of the Fourth of July in the United States.

Modes of celebration

So is that vandalism or what? --Zakharov 01:49, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

United States article on featured candidate nominations list

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/United States

Cast your vote! The more responses, the more chances the article will improve and maybe pass the nomination. We might just make it pass in time for Fourth of July!--Ryz05 _t 17:36, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Why 4th of July

Why is it called the 4th of July, when the custom in the United States is month-day-year; I know it is occasionaly called "July 4th", but this is not the standard. Does anyone know why?

We do say "the [ordinal] of [month]" in American English although less frequently than "[month] [ordinal]". It's not a special usage just for Independence Day.--Kenji Yamada 06:29, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

True, but "[month], [ordinal]" is more common, except for the 4th of July it seems. - Matthew238 01:25, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

One would think that the more commonly used and uniquely Americian lingo would be used more commonly for the name America's most Important day and that some perticular reason caused 'the [ordinal] of [month]' to take presidance. 83.71.33.42 18:46, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

To say "July 4th" or "March 15th" would be appropriate for an ordinary day, where the date itself is not significant on its own. Compare "Fourth of July", or "Ides of March". The date is then sensed as poetic, or to be reflected upon. —RVJ 01:29, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

I would of thought that it would be because at the time it was first use American English wasn't around so it was the same of British English which would be [ordinal] [month] [year]. Joeking16 13:09, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Template colours

Is it just me or do the blue and white colours in the holidayinfo template box on the right really not work - especially the blue with black writing. I know it's all meant to be representative of the US flag but readibility must come first IMHO. I can't think of decent colours myself - anyone feel like attempting? --202.169.217.132 11:49, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I'd have to agree with you. Edit: Just changed them, should be better now. Thursday Postal 15:56, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

implicit ones of democracy, liberty, freedom, and equality under the law.

This needs a source, and should be scarequoted. Jefferson would balk at the state current of "democracy" in the United States. Intangible 17:12, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

What kind of source are we talking about here? I thought every schoolkid knows that the US is all about freedom, democracy, and equality/the rule of law. I know that sounds like an appeal to common sense, but I really do want to know what would suffice as a source. A speech by Bush? a speech by other political leaders? a government website that says that July 4 celebrates certain american values on July 4. What say ye? MPS 14:38, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

More in "Other notable July 4 events"

Today, for the first time ever, NASA launched a shuttle into orbit on the 4th of July, something that has been all over the news all day. I'm wondering if the section should be ammended to include this, as it is rather notable, seing as how there aren't many launches anymore. Just a thought.--68.6.242.18 00:59, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

No. Not really a celebration of ID... maybe put it on July 4 MPS 14:40, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Celebration of my retirement day. O.M.82.29.255.162 (talk) 07:56, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

As discussed before, this title should be changed.

Since Wikipedia is for naming pages what they are commonly referred to, this should be changed to The Fourth of July (U.S. Holiday). It may seem neater to refer to it as Independance Day (United States), but since articles are supposed to be named for their most common usage, the apt title would be: The Fourth of July (U.S. Holiday). Almost no one refers to it as Independance Day.

I propose a vote.

I support.

What are you talking about? The federal holiday on July 4 is designated as Independence Day by the federal government, and calendars say Independence Day.--75.28.163.95 02:03, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I think we should call it The Fourth of July (Independence Day - United States). 9 out of 10 Americans that you talk to on the street are going to call it the Fourth of July. When I look up the term Independence Day in English, I am not really looking for Angola's date of independence. A.S. Williams 17:15, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Officially, it is known as Independence Day. Also, renaming the article the 4th of July would not be taking a global view. Regardless of how it is refered to colloquially in the United States, most people globally would just think of the day of the year on the Gregorian calendar when 4th of July is mentioned. - Tomos ANTIGUA Tomos 19:25, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

I want to know why no one ever calls it 7/4...... --Tom (talk) 00:36, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Tom, I believe that to be a really profound question. If you need any help —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.224.119.208 (talk) 23:28, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

It's the Fourth of July (speaking as an American). Nobody has a problem with Cinco de Mayo. We can't be concerned with the "official" name; we Americans traditionally don't like to be told what to think, and there is no "official" body empowered to tell us what to call our holidays, anyhow. Each calendar maker is free to call it what they like, and it would be a bit redundant on a calendar to call it the date when you can see for yourself which day of the month of July it is and there is an alternate name. But nobody, and I mean nobody, ever says, "So, what are you doing on Independence Day?" or "Did you see the Independence Day fireworks?" --Milkbreath (talk) 00:59, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Most references invalid

Removed invalid references. More need to be added. Used http://diberri.dyndns.org/wikipedia/templates/?type=isbn to ensure standardized references. Demantos 16:49, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Addition to BBQ tradition

In New England, salmon is traditional.

Added Americana

I added the snippet about Americana because i believe it allows a broader range of topics, rather than the fireworks, parades, etc.

July 4th Public Holiday

Could someone please tell a UK citizen (!) whether this public holiday when it falls on a weekday as now also extends into other days of them same week - into the following day (July 5th) for example? Peter Dixon

• Your answer is probably here: Holidays of the United States#Federal holidays —RVJ 03:22, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

No, the official public holiday is only on July 4. July 3 and July 5 are regular work days. However, especially if July 4 falls on a Tuesday or Thursday, many people will take off an extra day to turn it into a 4 day weekend. Also, some people might take off the entire week.

If July 4 falls on a Sunday, then Monday, July 5 becomes a federal holiday. It is also a state holiday in most (but not all) states, and a paid holiday for most (but not all) private sector workers. If July 4 falls on a Saturday, then Friday, July 3 becomes a holiday for federal workers who work a Mon-Fri week. It is a state holiday in some states, and a paid holiday for some private sector workers, but that is not as common as Monday, July 5. Some states or private sector businesses close Monday, July 6 rather than Friday, July 3, but that is even less common.

Since the festivities are at night, in my personal opinion, Friday is the best day of the week for 4th of July to fall on. Saturday and Sunday are good (even better than Friday, in my opinion) if your job closes on Friday, July 3 or Monday, July 5, but are the worst days for it to fall on if your business does not close. Monday gets you a 3 day weekend, but then the day after is a work day. Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday (especially Wednesday) are lousy since you do not get a long weekend, unless you have vacation time and are able to use it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.184.64.197 (talk) 04:27, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Some private-sector businesses give their employees the long weekend as paid holiday time if Independence Day itself falls on a Tuesday or Thursday. Gov't employees usually don't get any extra holiday time, though. Schoop (talk) 15:44, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

I have honestly never seen any private sector employer close on Monday, July 3 or Friday, July 5 if Independence Day falls on Tuesday or Thursday. At least where I live, you are lucky to get off even a single day for a holiday. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.184.64.197 (talk) 03:13, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, my private sector employer does. I work for a major insurance company, and all of our offices are closed on July 3 or July 5 if the 4th is on a Tuesday or Thursday, respectively. Wednesdays stink, though. Schoop (talk) 20:06, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I know several people who work for insurance companies, and NONE of them have off Monday, July 3 or Friday, July 5, and not even Friday, July 3 or Monday, July 5. Are you sure that it's actually a paid holiday? Maybe nearly everybody just takes the day off in those years. At least in my state, it is illegal for a business to give more holidays in one year than another (it's considered a form of discrimination), which would make it impossible to close on Monday, July 3 or Friday, July 5, unleess another holiday is sacrificed, or a moveable "floating" holiday is given. However, where I live, very few private employers close for the "minor" holidays, so most employers don't have a holiday that they can sacrifice in favor of Monday, July 3 or Friday, July 5. Also, certain groups might be offended if "their" holiday is the one that was sacrificed (for example, blacks might be offended if MLK Day is the holiday that is sacrificed that year). Another option is to require employees to use a vacation day on Monday, July 3 or Friday, July 5, but some might see that as being unfair if they're forced to use a vacation day on a day that they would have been willing to work, but are then unable to take a day off on a day that they actually need or want to take off. So the easiest solution is to just stay open on Monday, July 3 and Friday, July 5, treat them as regular work days, but let anyone willing to use a vacation day take the day off, perhaps relaxing usual rules about vacation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.184.64.197 (talk) 00:03, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Insurance companies may be a special case. The service industry has extra incentive to stay open on days when people might need their services. Other private employers very often give two days for Independence Day if the timing works out. For example, my former employer provided nine paid holidays: New Year's Day, Memorial Day, Independence Day, Labor Day, Thanksgiving Day, the day after Thanksgiving, and Christmas Day, plus two more depending on where the "floating" days ended up -- usually one in July and one in December. Powers ^T 23:51, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Trust me, I get the day off as paid holiday time. The office is closed. There are some employees "on call" if necessary. We get a minimum of 8 holidays per year: New Years, Good Friday, Memorial Day, Independence Day, Labor Day, Thanksgiving, the day after Thanksgiving, and Christmas. We get Friday or Monday off if Jan 1, July 4, or Dec 25 falls on a Saturday or Sunday, respectively. If any of those three days falls on a Tuesday or Thursday, we get the Monday or Friday off to create a 4-day weekend. Schoop (talk) 15:09, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Maybe you get those days off, but I've honestly never seen anyone in any field get them off, so you should not say that they are common. At the very least, you should try to find a nationwide survey, and unless at least 51% of businesses close those days, you can't say that they are common. Another idea: maybe those days off are more common in certain geographic areas. Where I live, nobody has them off, but maybe they are commonly days off in areas that have a lower cost of living or are less lawsuit prone. The fact that you mention having Good Friday as a paid day off strongly suggests that you don't live in the same part of the US as me.

May I ask what state you are in? I'm in Michigan. That my company gives Good Friday as a holiday is somewhat uncommon. We don't get MLK day off, though. A lot of companies switched from recognizing Good Friday as a paid holiday to recognizing MLK day instead in the late 1980s. Mine did not. Getting the days around Independence Day is relatively common here for white-collar office jobs. Your comment about it being illegal for a business to give more holidays in one year than another in your state seems incredibly strange to me - If I'm a business, as long as I have a reasonably consistent policy, why shouldn't I be allowed to give my employees as much paid time off as I want? Schoop (talk) 17:48, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm in New York. Nobody has off for Good Friday here, except for the stock market and schools. MLK Day is somewhat common, but not as common as the "major" holidays. I've honestly never seen any businesses in my area, in any field, close on any day adjacent to July 4, other than July 4 itself. About it being illegal to give more days off in some years than others: while I do agree with you, the reality is that, unfortunately, if you have, for example, a black employee who starts working during a year that 4th of July falls on, for example, Friday, he will sue for discrimination, saying that a white employee who worked the previous year, where 4th of July fell on Thursday, got an extra holiday that he didn't get off, and will say that he was discriminated against for being black. I agree that it's ridiculous, and it will be a completely frivolous lawsuit, but it is something that companies must protect themselves again. A somewhat double standard is that companies are allowed to "cheat" their employees out of a holiday when July 4 (or another holiday) falls on Saturday or Sunday. The argument there is that they'll say that they aren't requiring you to work on July 4, and that you are "professionals" and are not entitled to paid holidays. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.184.64.197 (talk) 04:19, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

"In that streetlamp era" / Fireworks

Not "that pre-streetlamp era"? 86.143.48.55 (talk) 13:21, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Really Useful: The Origins of Everyday Things By Joel Levy mentions fireworks in Colonial America. Not a primary source, but useful. Also see Fireworks in Elizabethan times. A discussion of the history of fireworks in America proper belongs on some other page, and certainly, fireworks were more expensive then, and candles cheaper, but fireworks were definitely used in Colonial and Revolutionary America. Somercet (talk) 14:06, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

John Adams quote

Lperez2029: if you add quotations from historical figures, please ensure that you cite and format them properly. Otherwise they may be deleted. Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.188.209.36 (talk) 21:43, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

• Also, he wrote that on July 3 about July 2 --JimWae (talk) 21:49, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

John Adams wrote it on July 2nd and it was ratified on Independence Day, July 4th. --Lperez2029 (talk) 22:29, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Jim, I wikified "God Almighty" because The United States is one nation under God, and so it is proper for all peoples to see that in the USA we put God first (all else is under). The introduction with the 2nd of July may be confusing to some but I guess it's okay because that's what he wrote. Referencing the encyclopedia to wiki quote is okay too as long as verification of the information is available for confirmation of the source. Thank you --Lperez2029 (talk) 23:36, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

• wikipedia is neither a US encyclopedia nor a religious tract. There is no good reason to wikify God - and it is not clear that the article it links to is the god that Adams had i mind. The quote STILL has not been reliably sourced. Bonfirees & illuminations are more likely to need a link than God. I am removing the link.--JimWae (talk) 23:50, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
• The words in the pledge of allegiance have no force in law - especially not the 1954 amendment to it. There is nothing in law or constitution that says God is first in the USA. You have violate WP:3RR and you do not appear to want to work WITH others here. No editor owns the article -- we must all work togwether on the project. Your insistence on having it "your way", to the point of breaking the rules, is insulting to others here.--JimWae (talk) 00:18, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Jim, We must be reasonable with the truth, and when in doubt search and research for the truth until we find the answer. Simply deleting is sometimes uncivil and unkind and many times an easy way out of that good answer which we fail to seek -- From the United States State Department: John Adams letters --Lperez2029 (talk) 23:44, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

• THAT source is better - but does NOT contain an unbroken quote - keep looking --JimWae (talk) 23:55, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
• What do you mean by unbroken quote -- if something seems broken we need to figure out what the problem is -- but it is a pretty good link isn't it! Lperez2029 (talk) 23:59, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

That's true, but I have a feeling lperez2029 will simply continually revert any change I try to make on the matter. Perhaps somebody with an account would like to clear up the issue in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.188.209.36 (talk) 22:01, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Gentlemen,

Please take a look at the reference now it's there. We must assume good faith on wikipedia, and we must also be patient while others work to improve on the project. Thank you for all your input, and have a Happy 4th of July! Lperez2029 (talk) 22:24, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Lperez2029: Your religious fanaticism and how you feel it should apply to the government and all American citizens is genuinely absurd. While that isn't a public issue in and of itself, your insistence on breaking NPOV and creating a revisionist history to fit your insane fundamentalist worldview for America via wikipedia is ridiculous. Get a homepage, and put your editorializing there. The United States is a secular nation, has always been a secular nation, and with any luck will continue to be. The fact that the majority of the population is Christian is not relevant to this assertion. Ref: Treaty of Tripoli or the freaking Establishment Clause. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.188.209.36 (talk) 03:05, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I am not a religious fanatic. It is our founding fathers that put God into our constitution not me. --Lperez2029 (talk) 03:42, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Where is God in the Constitution, again? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.254.131 (talk) 03:57, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

There is no mention of G-d in the Constitution; there is, however, mention of "religion" in at least a couple of places - one in the original part of the document ("no religious Test shall be required" to take the oath of office at the national level of government) and one in the First Amendment. 68.32.48.59 (talk) 13:34, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Also note that per Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Quotations nothing should be linked in direct quotations unless there is very good reason to do so, and in this case there is certainly no good reason to link anything. Any other arguments aside, it's standard not to link anything in quotations on Wikipedia. LonelyMarble (talk) 13:39, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

" but is often also viewed as simply a summer festival, "

There is absolutely no evidence of this. This is an opinion, with little or no basis in legitimacy. I've never ever witnessed anything informing me that the original meaning of the 4th of July has been overlooked as with other holidays in America. I don't believe this view can be supported. I'm also curious to know if this was written by someone of an origin outside of the United States of America. However, I do think those words can be applied to Memorial Day, as American Combat Fatalities are far removed from many citizens. But I think everyone understands on some level that the Fourth of July commemorates the birth of the USA. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.119.204.184 (talk) 14:36, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

While I agree that almost everyone knows what the meaning of the holiday is, I don't think many people care that much anymore considering the United States officially got independence 232 years ago, which makes this statement have legitimacy. But I also agree that this statement is an opinion so without a reference I would have no problem removing it. LonelyMarble (talk) 14:48, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately I have to agree with the other guy that a lot of people don't celebrate it as Independence Day any more. They might as well rename it "Fireworks Day". Perhaps you just live in a more patriotic community than me. The statement needs a citation, however. --70.142.50.236 (talk) 15:18, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

How can you apply a few observations and personal perceptions to an entire country? How do you know what motivation people have during their "summer festival" and "fireworks day"? To assume that all patriotic meaning has been removed is presumptuous, misleading, and has no place in this form of media. Remove all opinions that are stated as fact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.248.227.151 (talk) 17:04, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm removing the phrase. There is no demonstration that it's true, and more importantly, there is no citation. Ethereal Vega (talk) 23:15, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

"...the first celebration..."

Why does it say that in 1783 Moravians "held the first celebration of July 4 in the country" under Observance? There are four earlier celebrations right above it in the list. ATC2 (talk) 20:25, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I've changed it. If anyone has any information to clarify what it meant, please add it. ATC2 (talk) 18:58, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Is beer associated with 4th of July?

According to [1], the word "beer" was removed from the list of things that are associated with the 4th in revision #142099674. The edit was made from the IP 216.49.181.128 (talk), which is inside an IP address block belonging to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. If the stewards of this article feel that beer is truly not associated with Independence Day, then I agree with leaving the omission in place. If not, however, and you agree that this is yet another case of an individual trying to rewrite wikipedia to conform to his/her own personal beliefs, maybe the change should be reverted. If this isn't the place to discuss this, I apologize and ask for correction.

"Beer" may be readily associated with "Germany", "Hops" or "Milwaukee". I don't see a reason to associate it with this article. Sswonk (talk) 21:50, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Story

...in the year 1776 the inhabitants of the thirteen colonies at the east coast of North America led a war against the British king and the British parliament, because they felt suppressed. The war began 1775, but when it continued to itself draw, the Kolonisten recognized that they fought not only for a better treatment, but for their freedom of the rule of England. , The colonies signed, stressed the declaration of independence as United States of America were clearly and designated from all leaders of the colonies this for the first time in an official document. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.131.97.95 (talk) 17:48, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Why is this article stll semi-protected?

It's been months since 4th of July. Why is this article still semi-protected? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.184.64.197 (talk) 22:47, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Main Image

Caption reads: "Displays of fireworks, such as these over the Washington Monument in 1986, take place across the United States on Independence Day." However, it's showing a ceiling fan instead. Reading the image history it looks like someone vandalized the page on "22:10, 4 July 2015" to display a ceiling fan. Someone might want to revert. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:440:C100:31F9:F879:8F99:3B1D:7DCD (talk)

Detroit/Windsor fireworks

During the annual Windsor-Detroit International Freedom Festival, Detroit, Michigan, and Windsor, Ontario, host one of the world's largest fireworks displays, over the Detroit River, to celebrate both American Independence Day and Canada Day.

I feel this doesn't belong in the article, mainly because the fireworks NEVER happen on Independence Day, and frankly don't even happen on Canada Day. They tend to happen anywhere from a week to a week an a half before. So how does it really belong in an article about a specific day when it doesn't happen on that day? I don't want to take it out without giving people a chance to argue against it, though.76.232.150.19 (talk) 22:04, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

it belongs because it is celebrating the day. 67.176.160.47 (talk) 23:59, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Mentioned in the press

This article was mentioned at this newspaper article. LeadSongDog come howl! 01:45, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Fark.com (which for some reason never links to MY webpage...) Has a link to this page with the headline "Photoshop Theme: What I regret about my Fourth of July celebration, the day after." Guy Macon 17:37, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Observances in Dixie

July 4th was not celebrated in Dixe(Southern states)until after WW2.

Not exactly. According to this source, the day was celebrated in the South before and during the early years of the Civil War, with some white Southerners maintaining that Yankees had no right to celebrate what was, they thought, a Southern holiday. Commemoration of the holiday fell off during the war. White Southerners stopped celebrating after the war because newly freed black Southerners were celebrating the holiday. Eventually, white Southerners returned to celebrating the holiday, but the source does not say when. All of this should be in the article eventually. —Kevin Myers 03:03, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

---

Hello, all,

From my childhood in Maryland in the 1950s, I recall that Virginia refused to celebrate Independence Day, instead focusing on Lee-Jackson Day. How to verify that, I know not, but I thought it worthy of mention.

Georgejdorner (talk) 15:07, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

---

Another reason that July 4 stopped being a day to celebrate in the South was that July 4, 1863 was the day that Vicksburg fell and one of the days of the Battle of Gettysburg.71.109.148.53 (talk) 05:15, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Customs: update with fireworks video

{{editsemiprotected}}

Recommend adding a fireworks video. The page states the day is commonly associated with fireworks. The "Customs" section mentions Washington, DC as one of the major fireworks displays. A video illustrating this event would be appropriate for the page.

≈Netizen1138 (talk) 04:23, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm inclined to disagree with its inclusion — not because I think it's a bad idea, but because of the poor quality of the video, which is always moving around instead of looking at a fixed spot; consequently, it provides a rather poor understanding of the fireworks. Nyttend (talk) 13:12, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

 Not done per Nyttend, and a fireworks picture should work fine enough. :-) --Diego Grez ^{let's talk} 18:15, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

Why the 4th before July?

As a non-American, and a bit of a pedant, I am often involved in Wikipedia edits to sort out date formats across the globe. I normally expect American dates to show the day number after the month, while much of the rest of the world reverses that convention, but the 4th of July is different. Anyone know why? HiLo48 (talk) 22:27, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

Because "July 4th" wouldn't have rhymed in "The Yankee Doodle Boy":

I'm a Yankee Doodle Dandy,

A Yankee Doodle, do or die;

A real live nephew of my Uncle Sam's,

Born on July the Fourth.

Nah, that doesn't work.  :) Actually, as flippant as the foregoing was, the phrase "born on the Fourth of July" has become somewhat cemented in thanks to the song, and was even used for that best-selling book that became a Tom Cruise vehicle (Tom himself being born on the 3rd of July). -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 22:38, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

In the US and Canada (they use all three date formats, but most of the Canadians I've met say the month followed by the date), putting the day before the month sounds more formal, and considering the value of this date in American history, it just makes sense that way. Pyro721 (talk) 10:49, July 4, 2010 (UTC)

I think it is because it uses the old way, because it is used as the name of the holiday, with more people referring to it as the 4th of July, than Independence Day. 67.176.160.47 (talk) 00:01, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Qualify which legal system and add reference to Treaty of Paris (1783)?

I propose a minor alteration to the first sentences of the "Background" paragraph. As with many (any?) independence event, there are two legal systems involved at that time. The reference to the legal independence from Great Britain should be qualified with "in American legal theory" as the independence was not granted in British political theory until later (September 1783?) in the Treaty of Paris. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fullel (talk • contribs) 20:17, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

That would be very useful information to add, but it needs more than he minor alteration you suggest. Listing both dates with an explanation and some references would be better IMO. Guy Macon 17:44, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, we can explain this better in the article, though it's a bit complex. There were not really two legal systems involved, but rather conflicting theories of what is known in international law as "recognition". Surprisingly, we don't yet have an article on recognition (international law), but we will eventually. According to one theory of recognition, the US came into existence in July 1776 when it declared independence. According to another, it came into existence in 1778 when another nation (France) "recognized" the US. According to the theory of belligerent recognition, Great Britain implicitly recognized US independence early in the war when it granted the Americans rights accorded to states during wartime, such as prisoner exchanges. So, pick your favorite theory. —Kevin Myers 19:09, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from 12.34.6.66, 29 June 2011

For Independence Day article, please change the right hand box of facts where is states where the holiday is observed. At this time you say only United States. In fact, the United States Independence Day is celebrated by Denmark. The only other country in the world to celebrate with the USA.

Here is a link to Rebild Society, the organization that manages the annual celebration in Denmark. http://danishrebildsociety.com/ourhistory.php

Thank you

Karensorensen77 (talk) 13:15, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

 Not done That's already mentioned later in the article. I don't think it belongs in that infobox; while the US has various Octoberfest celebrations, they are not considered to be national holidays. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 14:42, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

_{Marking edit request as answered Jnorton7558 (talk) 10:46, 30 June 2011 (UTC)}

First documented Celebration of independence day disputed

http://www.tngenweb.org/campbell/hist-bogan/DraggingCanoe.html RobbinSkinner (talk) 06:38, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Very interesting, thanks for pointing that out. We cannot use that article as a source because it does not meet our guidelines as described in WP:identifying reliable sources. But perhaps there are other sources that describe this early western celebration of Independence Day. —Kevin Myers 17:50, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

The information in that link can't be correct, can it? Besides the website doesn't cite a source for their assertions. The news about Independence would have taken days if not possibly weeks to reach Tennessee in 1776. A more reliable source for specific facts might be the info/references found at Fourth of July Celebrations Database run by James R. Heintze of American University, Washington, D.C. This database says that the first public readings of the Declaration of Independence in Philadelphia itself weren't until July 8th. --Shearonink (talk) 18:04, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

I initially had the same reaction, but then I realized that the link doesn't necessarily give the date of the celebration. At first glance the article seems to imply that there was a celebration in the west on July 4, 1776, but I think what was meant is that there was a celebration in Tennessee when they received news of the Declaration, which was presumably a number of days after July 4. This is believable, but of course we need a better source. It's true that western Americans informed Natives that the often fractious colonies had become a new, united nation, in hopes that such news would discourage Native resistance. Perhaps the writer of the article interpreted news of the Declaration reaching the west as a celebration of Independence Day. But we've already given too much attention to a source we can't use. —Kevin Myers 18:46, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

July 2, not 4?

In the first paragraph under "Background," I wonder if the following contains a small typo:

"Congress debated and revised the Declaration, finally approving it on July 4." Given the context (and quote from John Adams), should the date be July 2?

Thank you for an otherwise and clearly-written article!

71.7.81.24 (talk) 21:57, 30 June 2012 (UTC)Robert Koepcke

July 4 is correct. Someone messed with the wording awhile back, introducing errors and producing a confusing passage. Fixed now. Thanks for pointing out the problem. —Kevin Myers 03:40, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 4 July 2012

Please remove "(on Gallows Hill, the famous site of the execution of 13 women and 6 men for witchcraft in 1692 during the Salem witch trials, where the tradition of bonfires in celebration had persisted)," it is unecessary. 24.127.183.142 (talk) 12:34, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

 Not done No, it is properly sourced, and gives a historic background for why the bonfire tradition existed. HammerFilmFan (talk) 21:05, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Moving information in 'Background' section

The final paragraph of the 'Background' section references some presidential trivia relating to presidents dying and being born on the 4th of July. The transition from the discussion of when the Declaration was actually signed to strange historical coincidences is a little rough, and I would suggest either deleting the paragraph entirely or moving down to a different section. Admittedly it doesn't fit all that well with any of the preexisting headings, so if we're ardent about keeping the paragraph a new section might need to be added or a heading reworded. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kernsters (talk • contribs) 01:02, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

Racial aspect

Here, it mentions the fact that the day was often used to persecute blacks in the early 19th century. Specifically, "a country where whites often selected the Fourth of July as a special day to prosecute a campaign of racial terror:

On July 4, 1805, whites in Philadelphia drove blacks out of the square facing Independence Hall. For years thereafter, blacks attended Fourth of July festivities in that city at their peril. On July 4, 1834, a white mob in New York City burned down the Broadway Tabernacle because of the antislavery and anti­racist views of the church’s leaders. Firefighters in sympathy with the arsonists refused to douse the conflagration. On July 4, 1835, a white mob in Canaan, New Hampshire, destroyed a school open to blacks that was run by an abolitionist. The ante­bellum years were liberally dotted with such episodes."

I think someone who knows more than me (a Brit) should delve into this, it seems pretty notable.31.11.234.227 (talk) 20:10, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 4 July 2013

I believe it would be proper for the first line to read: "July Fourth, also known as Independence Day....". The date should come before the name of the date in my humble opinion.

Dlbhina62252 (talk) 15:00, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

 Not done No. "I believe it would be proper" is not a valid criteria for making a major change to an article. See WP:RS and WP:V. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 15:21, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Use of the War of 1812 Overture at U.S. fireworks displays does not recall the U.S. War of 1812

Where the article says "Independence Day fireworks are often accompanied by patriotic songs ... Some of the lyrics recall images of ... the War of 1812", it should be noted that the War of 1812 Overture is not one of these songs. Although its title and its use to accompany fireworks in the U.S. may give the impression that it is associated with that war, it is actually named for the unrelated Franco-Russian Patriotic War of 1812, and not the Anglo-American war by the same name. 71.109.148.53 (talk) 05:26, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

4th July Parade 2014 Information

Parade Vending Chairman : John Daniels
Parade floats chairman : Jim Tavares
Parade Brand Chairman : Gerald Mederos and Tony Mederos 4th July Parade 2014 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aaronjohn92 (talk • contribs) 19:28, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 June 2014

<a%20target= "_blank"%20href="http://www.amazon.com/b/ref=assoc_tag_ph_1401991801426?_encoding=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&linkCode=pf4&node=6361265011&tag=load043-20&linkId=HTLAJNLSMRWIHRMF">Shop%20Amazon%20-%20Celebrate%204th%20of%20July</a><img%20src="http://ir-na.amazon-adsystem.com/e/ir?t=load043-20&l=pf4&o=1"%20width="1"%20height="1"%20border="0"%20alt=""%20style="border:none%20!important;%20margin:0px%20!important;"%20/> 4th of july stuff

24.211.9.51 (talk) 00:52, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. — {{U|Technical 13}} ^{(e • t • c)} 01:42, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Infobox

The infobox automatically says that the next time Independence Day occurs is "4 July 2014", not "July 4" as in the rest of the article. Is there a way to change this? '''tAD''' (talk) 16:22, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 July 2014

The link to the military history of the 21 gun salute in the footnote has changed. it is now http://www.history.army.mil/html/faq/salute.html Bshoemate (talk) 16:14, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

Done Thanks, NiciVampireHeart 16:27, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 October 2014

The link to the document Making Sense of the Fourth of July is broken. The link is now http://iipdigital.usembassy.gov/st/english/texttrans/2005/06/20050606131757pssnikwad0.3779871.html Mel00010 (talk) 21:17, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

• Done. - Mike Rosoft (talk) 04:42, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

Photo

Someone please fix the photo in the top-right. Someone replaced it with a photo of a fan...

It was obviously done by someone who hates America. 149.101.37.2 (talk) 22:28, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Fixed. --Hydraton31 (talk) _{{Contributions}} 22:35, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

@Hydraton31: I looked in the page history and there are not any revisions containing the described vandalism. Dustin (talk) 23:32, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 July 2015

Please change the main image from that of a ceiling fan back to the original fireworks image. 97.119.174.11 (talk) 22:44, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

 Not done. The main image is not of a ceiling fan. It has not been a ceiling fan in the recent past either. (The cause is revision deletion) Dustin (talk) 22:48, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Not sure if Dustin is serious or trolling. Photo was very much a ceiling fan, and was NOT a background image. I took a screen shot of it at the time, but as of right now the image seems to be down entirely. 12.25.9.3 (talk) 23:13, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

No; the wikicode specifically points to File:Fourth of July fireworks behind the Washington Monument, 1986.jpg. Please don't bring up problems where there are none. Dustin (talk) 23:28, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes, when I clicked on it I saw the same thing, same references and everything. And after clicking through a few layers I was able to find the correct image. But that image was not the image that was displayed on the page at the time. I even took a picture of this as evidence. 12.25.9.3 (talk) 23:33, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Would you mind providing the described screenshot via an external website (since you are not registered)? Dustin (talk) 23:36, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

http://imgur.com/l3F0Yxu Someone has fixed it since then. I'm beginning to wonder if someone actually edited the image source itself, and not just the image linked on the page.12.25.9.3 (talk) 23:44, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Much thanks to the user/s who reported this image vandalism. A vandal went into the image's source code at Commons and switched the original image for another one. Their "contributions" have since been rev-deled and their account has been blocked there (both for vandalism and for being inappropriate). Shearonink (talk) 14:25, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Rev-deleted, hmm? Well, this revision deletion did far more harm than good by allowing for confusion to persist for over 16 hours and could have simply been labeled as vandalism. Dustin (talk) 15:00, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

I get the whole "history cleaning" thing, but really... I checked all the complaints and by the time I had checked them, every single time, there was just the normal fireworks image so I don't know how these IPs were able to see a picture of a ceiling fan, but when I checked mere seconds after their talk page messages, I could see nothing. Dustin (talk) 15:04, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I saw the rev-del'ed comment somewhere over on Commons (of course can't find it at the moment - somewhere in an edit summary? and I'll admit I get lost over there sometimes) but I've seen image-vandals hit image file-pages on Commons before. Sometimes these things take time (can take a while to figure it out and trace down), besides, yesterday was a holiday in the US and it is the weekend. Hey, we're all volunteers here so here's a "CHEERS!" to us :D. Shearonink (talk) 15:16, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

4 July 2015 Image Troll

Couldn't find any sort of "report this" link on this page, but it's obvious someone has replaced the picture of the 1986 Independence Day fireworks celebration at the Washington Monument with a picture of an outdoor ceiling fan. Thankfully, it wasn't something technically inappropriate, but it obviously needs correcting. I don't have an account on this site and have never edited anything, but I'm hoping someone with those privileges will correct this.

Signed - Current U.S. Army Staff Sergeant and 2x Iraq War vet. 12.25.9.3 (talk) 23:02, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

See above section. Shearonink (talk) 14:25, 5 July 2015 (UTC)