Talk:Holi/Archive 1

Archive 1

When is Holi in 2005 ?

When is Holi in the Gregorian calendar ? For 2005, Dutch Wikipedia says "26 maart"(March 26), while German Wikipedia says "24./25. März" (March 24 ~ March 25), and then English Wikipedia says "over two days around March". Very confusing ..... Can anyone confirm the dates and make a list for the upcoming years, please ? Many thanks. -- PFHLai 06:28, 2005 Mar 25 (UTC)

article merger from 16th March 2006 Navi Mumbai riot

I am recommending an article merger of this information as it was recently placed in WP:PROD. As there are reports of riots during Islamic Hajj and Christian pilgrimages, I felt it best to pass the information here so that the editors will do what they feel is most useful from it.--み使い Mitsukai 06:14, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

A merge would be fine; I just don't want a whole article on a single event that only injured 50 people. This isn't Wikinews. Melchoir 06:31, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

I would like to strongly oppose merger. Holi is prominent and historic festival, and such events occur on every Holi (every year) hundreds of times across India. Just that this news got its article doesn't justify its merger with the general event. Riots have no connection with spirit or idea of Holi, except they happened on this day. In fact, I would be okay if that article (on riot) be deleted as its hardly a news worthy or encyclopedic event (no sentiments please, lets be factual).AshishG talk_{23:39, 17 March 2006.}

I don't really think a merger would be a good idea - it would throw the article out of balance - compared to the festival as a whole, this event is trivial. Including it would, IMO, violate the whole "undue weight" idea. Guettarda 06:59, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, I agree with both of you as well. Who wants to AfD it? Melchoir 08:33, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Please don't merge it. A link of in "See this also" section may be better idea. Wces423 10:48, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

I do not understand how linking a riot which does not have anything to do with Holi is going to help the article. Just because the word "Holi" appears in the riot article does not warrant it to be linked to Holi.--Chsunil 22:45, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Fine, I'll do it. Melchoir 03:03, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

On second thought, it seems that violence is continuing. I don't want to AfD it yet, or perhaps at all; the original article will still need a name change at the very least, though. Melchoir 03:11, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Name change definitely required. I not following this event particularly, but I don't see this news in prominence in Indian media itself (which I am following) so I wouldn't mind AfD. AshishG^talk _{02:01, 19 March 2006.}

Strongly oppose merge. These are very different entities. Maybe link to the riots under a subsection of problems during holi ? Pradiptaray 09:33, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I STRONGLY oppose the merger....it's really not relevant to the topic

I also strongly oppose the merger as I do not see any relation between a riot happening somewhere in India to a festival which is celebrated all over india (mostly). They do not relate at all This is Tanul | Wanna Talk 07:24, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I also strongly OPPOSE the merge. —Adityanath 17:59, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

I STRONGLY discourage the merger of such news with the HOLI article.This article is a information article on HOLI a festival in INDIA and NEPAL and its historical significance. There is no need to introduce communal tension in this information.

Strongly oppose. This would be akin to merging the article on the Easter Rising with the article on Easter or Tet offensive with Tet. (I'm sure many more parallels could be found). Holi is an Indian festival. Why should it be merged with an incident that took place in one particular year? (Also, the sooner the merger sign is taken down the better. The merger suggestion has been made on very dubious grounds and the sign only disfigures the article). User:Bathrobe (not logged in)

Okay, I probably should explain my reasoning (should have done that earlier; mea culpa). The reason I recommended the merger between the pages is that (from what I saw), there was a correlation between the riots and the holiday. Considering that the page on Muslim hajj contains information on similar situations (there is also the fork article Incidents during the Hajj), and the Mumbai article itself states that: The residents of Simplex Colony alleged that the villagers from the Agri community were using the Holi festival as an excuse for eve teasing, I felt that this might be a situation that required detailing as such.

If the 2006 riots have nothing to do with holi (which, again, from my POV, it seemed that they did), then I'll be fine with a cancellation of a merger. I'm not out to offend anyone at all; I merely thought that it was a valid point, enough so that I'm looking for similar instances in other religions (aside from hajj incidents) so that I don't appear hypocritical or anti-Hindu. Hope this explains my reasoning, and apologies if I've offended anyone (which, again, I was not out to do).--み使い Mitsukai 12:50, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose as articulated by User:Bathrobe. While the riots may have been at the time of the festival and even triggered by it, we would not mix incidents at the time of festivals with a general encyclopedic article on the festival Anything more than a see also level of mention seems inappropriate unless that incident has distorted the way the festival is celebrated or whatever - I don't believe these riots were that significant. Given the opposition and the comments of User:Mitsukai of 6 April, I will untag.--A Y Arktos\^talk 22:52, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I think it's only fair that I now advertise the AfD here: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/16th March 2006 Navi Mumbai riot. Melchoir 23:18, 11 April 2006 (UTC) ...Right, it's gone. Melchoir 19:13, 16 April 2006 (UTC) the hindu religion is graet and this festival sounds very interesting

Similar customs

In the Greek village Galaxidi there is a custom of throwing meal/flour at each other on Clean Monday (there is mention of this in the Greek version of the article). This custom seems to bear resemblance to Holi. Should this maybe be mentioned? — Hrothberht 22:26, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Merge from Dol-Purnima

It was proposed on Dol-Purnima that it be merged with this article. I have replaced the tag there, with one asking to merge into this one, and tagged here also. I have no opinion one way or the other, but I will do the merge and redirect Dol-Purnima here unless someone objects. --Selket ^Talk 00:18, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I am not sure if the article on Dol Purnima should be merged with holi. In west bengal the festival called "Dol Yatra" happens on a day which is 1 day off from the date of Holi (I forgot if it happes the day before or the day after). But other than the playing with colors rest of the customs and rituals also have lot of differences. In bengali custom there is no burning of the effigy of the demoness Holica which is the north Holi for the rest of the north Indians, instead there are some Vaishnav customs some of which is described in the Dol-Purnima article. Also there are customs of eating a hard sugary candy called Math which comes in various shapes. and many such other rituals in Dol. --Dr.saptarshi 04:38, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I Strongly urge not to merge the two entity. They are two different festivals with different significances for Hindus from different regions. Dr.saptarshi has made some very valid points against this motion. Holi has significance to all hindus but Dol Purnima mainly has a following in the Begali community. Also Dol Purnima is more of a procession but Holi is considered as more of a communal get together. --AChhawal 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Why is this article so skewed to what's wrong with Holi?

Half the article is about toxicity of color agents and deforestation from fires. The Wikipedia article on Christmas doesn't spend half its verbiage on the evils of Christmas trees and how candy canes cause diabetes. The Easter article isn't all about the horrors of Peeps. I don't object to the inclusion of these things, but a Westerner reading this article would conclude that Holi is a festival when people throw deadly poisons on each other.Ninquerinquar 23:41, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree. The first half of the article is informative, the environmental section just screams "Western viewpoint." Darius 23:25, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Holi date 2009

On the Hindi article about Holi there seems to be a date telling when Holi will be in 2009. I'm not really capable of reading Hindi ... can someone competent please insert the correct date here in the English article? Thanks! jo) --JoWi (talk) 00:42, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Errors in "Significance" Section

The 6th paragraph reads, "Holi is a festival of radiance (Teja) in the universe. During this festival, different"...obviously incomplete.

Also, why are there two instances of the painting from the Smithsonian? CWPappas (talk) 03:55, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Shiva and Vaishnava views.

There are two aspects of Holi, one is that held by the Vaishnavites that Holi is celebrated as the burning of Demoness Holika and the other held by the Shivites that Holi is celebrated as burning of Love God Kama, this article gives more significance to the Vaishnava view. NaveenB (talk) 16:58, 1 September 2009 (UTC) Naveen

Re : When is Holi ?

Holi in 2005 actually started today (March) and will continue until the end of day tomorrow (March 26th). Because the Hindu calendar is lunar, the date will vary from year to year, but is usually around mid-late March.

Yes, I understand why it's a different date in the Gregorian calendar. Now, I am asking when it is this year, 2006. Is it March 14 or 15 ? Can someone familiar with this holiday confirm the dates and put it in the article, please ? Future dates would also help. Thanks. -- PFHLai 16:57, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

I have just added the 2006 dates, provided by User:Bhadani. Can someone add the future dates, please ? Thanks. -- PFHLai 17:36, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Why was the mention of bhang removed in this edit? It's an integral part of Holi. Reverted to this one. Whitehat 16:18, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Guys, the date of Holi in 2008 in incorrect. I advise you double check it.

Can you please include why we celebrating holy. in this page it mentions that who all are celebrating and how did they celebrate. if so it will be helpful. Thanks (Swathi) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.245.63.107 (talk) 15:49, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

I just changed the date for Holi in 2008. According to several calendars I have consulted, it falls on Saturday, March 22, not on February 21. If I'm mistaken, please change it back. But I'm pretty sure I'm right. Smalek (talk) 02:31, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

other languages

Hi, does anyone know how to type Holi in Telugu/Tamil/Kannada etc.? could they add it please?

Spelling mistakes

Prahlada's name in the 1st section is misspelled as is Vaishnava in the lower section. can someone also make these corrections?

• Are you sure that this isn't simply a difference in spelling? However an article should be consistent in the spellings that it uses WhisperToMe (talk) 19:42, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Sources

• "Painted people celebrate Holi." CNN. March 22, 2011.

WhisperToMe (talk) 19:42, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Picture: A Natural Holi in Pune, an alternative to synthetic colors

This image makes it seem as though synthetic dyes are bright/vibrant and natural dyes are murky/dark. All the other pictures show bright colours used while this one uses icky green. If synthetic dyes are always brighter than natural colours then this should be stated explicitly, if not then should the image should be changed to something more representative? 91.125.178.89 (talk) 22:27, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

File:A Holi Festival - Krishna Radha and Gopis.jpg Nominated for Deletion

An image used in this article, File:A Holi Festival - Krishna Radha and Gopis.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests April 2012 What should I do? Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so. If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use) If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used. To take part in any discussion, or to review a more detailed deletion rationale please visit the relevant image page (File:A Holi Festival - Krishna Radha and Gopis.jpg) This is Bot placed notification, another user has nominated/tagged the image --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 15:42, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Holi in Karnataka

"Karnataka, Andhra Pradesh Holi is celebrated with much fervor here" I don't know about Andhra Pradesh, but according to some of my acquaintances who were born and who still live in Karnataka, it is not this much celebrated there and is much more a "North Indian thing". I was in Karnataka during Holi this year and although I saw a few individuals wearing colors on their faces, it did not seem to be celebrated this much. Does anybody have sources / more information about this? Regagain (talk) 21:03, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Phagwah

If there's a redirect from "Phagwah", there ought to atleast be a mention of it in the article. Osakadave (talk) 14:19, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Hi! I agree, and so have added a reference to Phagwah at the start of the article. It is confusing to readers who are redirected here otherwise... Thanks, (Loriski (talk) 23:29, 22 May 2012 (UTC))

Factual Error in the data and details

It mentions that - 'Holi or Phagwah (Bhojpuri </wiki/Bhojpuri>) is an annual Hindu </wiki/Hindu> spring </wiki/Spring_%28season%29> festival. It takes place over two days around late March </wiki/March> or early April </wiki/April>. As per the Hindu </wiki/Hindu> calendar </wiki/Calendar>, it falls on the last day on the month of Phalgun (फाल्गुन), which is a Purnima (or Pooranmashi) Full Moon </wiki/Full_Moon> on a Purnima (or Pooranmashi) Full Moon </wiki/Full_Moon>, and on the first day of Chaitra (
चैत्र). It is a celebration also of the Hindu New Year, as Chaitra is the first month of the Hindu Year'.

This data is totally wrong. Holi falls on the Full moon of month of Phalgun that is correct. But it never falls on 1st day of Chaitra. In Hindu calendar, month has 30 days - first 15 days are of full moon (waxing moon) and next 15 days are of waning moon. Every hindu calendar month ends on Amavasya and not on Full moon. So after Holi Full moon, there are next 15 days of the month of Phalgun and after Phalgun Amavasya, there is Chaitra Shudha Pratipada (1st day of Chaitra) which is Hindu new year. This new year day is called Gudipadawa in Maharashtra, Ugadi in Karnataka, Tamilnadu and Andhrapradesh.

Website http://www.destinationindia.com can give more detailed and correct information about Hindu festivals.

So in summary, Holi is NOT the 'First day of Hindu New Year'. Please correct this fact and data. Hope whoever put this information, is informed about this critical error.

If you have any doubts you can contact me on manjusha_kamble@vsnl.net

Not true, If the month starts after a full moon or a no moon is by convention. Half of the country has one convention and half has the other convention. Kaveri (talk)

Is the link (www.carmaworld.com/monthpicks.aspx?catid=83) -- Holi Hai -- really that good? It has only commercial content. Are commercials appreciated in an encyclopaedia? -- mohansn

The mention that "in rural Maharashtra it is known as Rangapanchami" is completely wrong. As its name suggests "Panchami" is 5th day after Paurnima. Obviously Rangapanchami can't be on Holi's day.

In Maharashtra - rural or urban - holi has always been about burning the evil and never about colors. Rangapanchami is a different festival celebrated on Panchami following the Holi. As kids we used to cool down the hot remains of holi with colored water used to play Rangapanchami on the 5th day.

Due to tremendous influx of North Indians to Maharashtra, Maharashtrians have actually forgotten their own traditions and have started celebrating Holi as a festiva of colors as in North. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mayureshw (talk • contribs) 04:39, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Other places Holi is celebrated

Holi is quite similar to pagan festival of Summer Solstice

Ritual Bonfire in particular, also both herald and celebrate coming of Spring/Summer.

Due to Equatorial Polar Shift there is difference in months . Just as Summer starts now near Northern Poles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midsummer

---

x-------------------------- — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.179.104.213 (talk) 03:39, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Just checked google news and it looks like its celebrated with the usual colours and a parade as well in Jersey City, USA. There's gotta be other places in the U.S. also celebrating similarly. Anyone up for writing up a section under the Diaspora heading about how Holi is celebrated in the U.S.? I might attack when I get some time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shilpanicodemus (talk • contribs) 00:42, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

There was a large Holi Festival held on March 26th and 27th, 2011 in Spanish Fork, Utah. I don't know how to embed a link on the main page, so here it is. http://www.utahkrishnas.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=100&Itemid=190 A nice video that was posted on London Daily Mail is here http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1370402/Mormons-Hindu-colour-filled-festival-celebrate-spring-descends-Utah.html

UserHoople365 05:39, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Picture

I'm not very impressed with the picture. A bunch of kids spraying each other with paint on a university lawn is not very evocative or distinctive to this holiday. Do we have any better pictures, perhaps ones of Holi religious ceremonies in South Asia? Babajobu 18:03, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I can see it getting replaced with something better, but I think it should be kept until there is a problem finding a place for it. I brought in a new image, if you havn't seen. Cheers, Sam Spade 12:21, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

The main picture is a terrible representation of Holi. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.99.92.125 (talk) 02:17, 16 March 2009 (UTC) RFYJFVNVNVN — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.66.29.168 (talk) 07:17, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Holi - multiple reasons for its celebration

I have reverted the changes made to the lead, where reliable sources were deleted, and a website's multiple histories for Holi (see this) was cherry picked to give undue emphasis to one - the Krishna legend. This violates WP:NPOV and WP:DUE policies of wikipedia.

Holi is celebrated for many reasons in different parts of India, as explained in cited sources. Lets discuss changes to lead, and reliability of sources here on the talk page. Abbey kershaw (talk) 07:30, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Removal of cited sources and other changes

The edit tag by user MaverickTopGun13 alleges uncited material, etc.; yet, goes on to delete many secondary and tertiary citations that meet WP:RS guidelines. This is not constructive.

The major deletions from the lede are also inappropriate. The lede is supposed to summarize the main article, repeating the main points, see WP:LEAD.

I have reverted most of the major deletion. Let us discuss it here. Abbey kershaw (talk) 15:07, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Too much repetition and useless information

"Anyone and everyone is fair game, friend or stranger, rich or poor, man or woman, children and elders. The frolic and fight with colours occurs in the open streets, open parks, outside temples and buildings. Groups carry drums and musical instruments, go from place to place, sing and dance. People move and visit family, friends and foes, first play with colours on each other, laugh and chit-chat, then share Holi delicacies, food and drinks" can be shortened and is repetitive and useless.

"Some drinks are intoxicating." Is totally unnecessary and is improper English.

"here is a symbolic legend to explain why holi is well celebrated as a colour fest. The word "Holi" originates from "Holika", the evil sister of demon king Hiranyakashipu. King Hiranyakashipu had earned a boon that made him virtually indestructible. The special powers blinded him, he grew arrogant, felt he was God, and demanded that everyone worship only him.[1]

Hiranyakashipu's own son, Prahlada,[14] however, disagreed. He was and remained devoted to Vishnu.[11] This infuriated Hiranyakashipu. He subjected Prahlada to cruel punishments, none of which affected the boy or his resolve to do what he thought was right. Finally, Holika - Prahlada's evil aunt - tricked him into sitting on a pyre with her.[1] Holika was wearing a cloak (shawl) that made her immune to injury from fire, while Prahlada was not. As the fire roared, the cloak flew from Holika and encased Prahlada.[11] Holika burned, Prahlada survived. Vishnu appeared and killed Hiranyakashipu. The bonfire is a reminder of the symbolic victory of good over evil, of ::Prahlada over Hiranyakashipu, of fire that burned Holika.[12] The day after Holika bonfire is celebrated as Holi.

In Braj region of India, where Krishna grew up, the festival is celebrated for 16 days (until Rangpanchmi) in commemoration of the divine love of Radha for Krishna, a Hindu deity. The festivities officially usher in spring, with Holi celebrated as festival of love.[15] There is a symbolic myth behind commemorating Krishna as well. Baby Krishna transitioned into his characteristic dark blue skin colour because a she demon Putana poisoned him with her breast milk.[16] In his youth, Krishna despairs whether fair skinned Radha and other Gopikas (girls) will like him because of his skin colour. His mother, tired of the desperation, asks him to approach Radha and colour her face in any colour he wanted. This he does, and Radha and Krishna became a couple. The playful colouring of the face of Radha has henceforth been commemorated as Holi.[17][18] Beyond India, these legends to explain the significance of Holi (Phagwah) are common in some Caribbean and South American communities of Indian origin such as Guyana and Trinidad and Tobago.[19][20]"

Can all be covered in the Holika article. You do not need an indepth report, just a brief description. It's not completely necessary to understanding the holiday.

There are also many grammatical errors that don't need to be reverted. The whole article reads like it was written by an ESL speaker. It needs to be cleaned up and deleting all the edits that you don't like because you wrote the whole thing is counter productive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MaverickTopGun13 (talk • contribs) 05:28, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

The lede, per WP:LEAD guideline, must summarize the article for both Indian and non-Indian reader who has never heard of Holi before. The lede should be sufficient and standalone summary, and include the "who, what, where, why, how, when" and other key aspects of the article. How is this repetitive - "Anyone and everyone is fair game, friend or stranger, rich or poor, man or woman, children and elders"? It describes the breadth of the festival, and that it cuts across class/age/gender/etc barriers - compare it to some festivals which are primarily brother-sister, husband-wife or gender-specific festivals or rituals around the world.

Similarly, the current Holika section is well supported, is necessary to understand why Holi is celebrated. It needs to be a balanced, complete and relevant summary of the Holika article, because Holika is integral part of Holi. If anything, it is the Holika article that needs to be expanded.

On spelling and grammar, you changed colour to color, etc. This is primarily an Indian holiday and wikipedia policies require the use of local spellings. Your constructive edits, such as those to clean up grammar are welcome. I have already accepted your suggestions there, and believe more copyediting would improve this article. Abbey kershaw (talk) 23:42, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Poorly sourced content

@Malikhpur: - I have reverted content you added from blogs and websites that are WP:NOTRS and WP:FRINGE. For example, you relied on astrobix.com, which is an astrology/horoscopy website. You are welcome to add content if it is reliably sourced and the content is non-fringe. Abbey kershaw (talk) 20:37, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

@Abbey kershaw:Thanks Abbey kershaw I will find references but have added a section on Punjab as Holi is also celebrated there.Malikhpur

I have removed 3 out of 5 cites you added after a sentence. The pre-1947 cites didn't look relevant to the content. The Charles Dickens book, for example, does not appear to use the word Holi, or discuss it in another form; pages 175-178 just discuss Hindu-Muslim conflict in Prahladpuri in 1883 AD. Abbey kershaw (talk) 23:19, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

States where Holi is not celebrated

Kerala state does not celebrate holi. The festival was unknown in Kerala till the invasion of Kerala kingdoms by India in 1947. It is interesting that this state does not have many of the Indian festivals. It is uncertain if Hiranyakashypu and Holika were based in Kerala. The King Mahabali (a good king defeated by vishu awtar vaamana but unscrupuluous means) was also from Kerala. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.48.79.247 (talk) 23:04, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

suggest a few cleanups, "alternate" vs "alternative"

While "alternate" is sometimes used in the sense of "alternative" in American English, it's never in British and "alternative" is acceptable in both. Also avoids the 'every-other' interpretation. "Alternative" is already used elsewhere in the article:

"madder tree, radish and pomegranate are alternate sources and shades of red." s/alternate/alternative/

"Mixing lime with turmeric powder creates an alternate source of orange powder" /s/alternate/alternative/

"Certain clays are alternate source of brown" change "Certain clays provide an alternative source of brown" Imalone (talk) 11:12, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. Seems to me that you have an ENGVAR request here. Please establish a consensus to swap out one form for the other. — {{U|Technical 13}} (e • t • c) 15:50, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Not that I particularly care about the Holi page, but looking at ENGVAR it has exactly this case as its example for "Opportunites for commonality": "Use a commonly understood word or phrase in preference to one that has a different meaning because of national differences (rather than alternate, use alternative or alternating depending on which sense is intended)." Imalone (talk) 18:38, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Missing

This article is great but there need to be some benchods added. 86.185.223.7 (talk) 21:45, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Great. What are benchods? I don't think that's an English word. --Thnidu (talk) 03:37, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Missing links

I've just added over a dozen links on names of foods and other Indian referents that previous editors evidently took for granted, assuming that the reader would understand them. Please realize that the English Wikipedia is read all over the world, and users outside of India are not likely to understand such terms as dholak, gujiya, mathri, malpua, gopi, puja, and abeer. --Thnidu (talk) 03:44, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Phalgun is incorrectly spelled.

Should be Phalguna. Can someone please change. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.119.177.171 (talk) 00:03, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

It is not incorrect. From Falgun:

Phalguna (Phālguna, Hindi: फाल्गुन, Phālgun, Tamil: பங்குனி, Paṅkuṉi) or Falgun (Bengali: ফাল্গুন, Assamese: ফাগুন, Nepali: फाल्गुन)

Phālguna is a Sanskrit pronunciation, transliterated in that article with the International Alphabet of Sanskrit Transliteration (IAST) directly from the Devanagari spelling used in Hindi. The final short /a/ is dropped in Hindi and in all the other languages cited above. --Thnidu (talk) 20:12, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

the article doesn't seem to explain *when* Holi actually is

It says that it takes place over two days in either late February or early March, and that it falls on the full moon that in 2008 takes place on the 22nd of March. What it doesn't explains is how exactly these dates are derived, i.e. how is it decided which full moon is the full moon that Holi falls on? Compare this to the Easter article which clearly states that easter takes place on the: "First Sunday after the first full moon on or after March 21". This article needs a succinct explanation like that. --86.135.178.19 (talk) 16:18, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

That's possible with Easter because the date was originally set in terms of the Julian calendar, which was reformed into the Gregorian calendar we use today, with clear and unambiguous equivalences. Holi, in contrast, is dated by the Hindu calendar(s), which is (are) not so easily converted. From the lede of Hindu calendar:

Hindu calendar is a collective name for most of the luni-sidereal calendars and sidereal calendars traditionally used in Hinduism.

The Hindu calendars have undergone many changes in the process of regionalization. Some of the more prominent regional Hindu calendars include the Nepali calendar, Assamese calendar, Bengali calendar, Malayalam calendar, Tamil calendar, Vikrama Samvat used in Northern India, and Shalivahana calendar in the Deccan States of Karnataka, Telangana, Maharashtra and Andhra Pradesh.

--Thnidu (talk) 20:23, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Bhang

Please stop removing the well-cited information about what is considered the official drink of Holi. There is no justification to remove this from the encyclopedia, and indeed none was cited when the content was removed. Thank you for your consideration. petrarchan47tc 07:44, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

I am glad that you went to the talk page, but please don't hesitate to revert content blanking that is without reason. Also, possibly issue them a warning with Twinkle. Ging287 (talk) 13:25, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

It has happened again, it seems some people are using this page to promote a certain holiday or religion, whilst suppressing encyclopedic content that they may perceive as harmful to the topic. I will revert back (and at some point will look into Twinkle, thanks!) petrarchan47tc 22:34, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Hello @Petrarchan47, please do not misrepresent sources. You first alleged Bhang is an official drink, then it is a standard drink, now you allege it is "synonymous" with Holi. I have read your two sources, and nowhere is such a claim made. Please explain why this is consistent with WP:NOR content guidelines. Also also explain why this is WP:DUE to be included in WP:LEAD. I urge we discuss it here on the talk page, before you try adding it back (see WP:BRD). Abbey kershaw (talk) 00:48, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Hi there Abbey, please don't misrepresent me, and don't suggest that Wikipedia articles mention things without definitions. This is an encyclopedia, yet when I visited this page, it eluded to Bhang in the Intro and mentions it in the body, but nowhere was it defined. I fail to see how this can be justified. I sought to add a definition for those readers who want the information and aren't familiar with the drink or festival, but it seems literally nothing I try to quote is acceptable.

Here is the first attempt to add a def:

From the Times of India NEW DELHI: If Holi has an official drink, it's bhang. It's difficult to tell when the association of bhang with the festival began, but old-timers say they were always a combo. Perhaps, it was because bhang was Lord Shiva's nectar, or perhaps because bhang gives a long and sophisticated high - just the thing that goes well with a day-long celebration.

My added text was: Bhang, made from cannabis, milk and various spices, is considered the "official drink" of Holi.

This was removed in a series of edits, but no reason was given that I can see. So, I tried again. You then reverted it, saying "Checked source; speculation such as "if holi has an official drink,..." cannot be written as "is official drink"; it is also WP:UNDUE."

Official drink:

• the Indian Express: Bhang, the drink patronised by Lord Shiva is the same drink with which Amitabh Bacchan tried wooing Rekha on screen in the ever green song Rang Barse in Silsila, it is also the official drink of Holi.

• India.com: For many of those celebrating Holi, the festival of colours is incomplete without a glass of flavoured Bhang. This traditional Holi beverage, made out of cannabis, is an indispensable part of the festivities.

Other mentions:

• TIME the drug has a long history of use in the country, tied to certain ecstactic rituals of both Muslims and Hindus in the subcontinent. During Holi, a Hindu spring festival of color, bhang has long been traditionally mixed into a delicious concoction of milk, sugar, spices and almonds and imbibed by all.

• Yahoo: Over the years, Bollywood films and songs have touched upon bhang intake and its effects in various ways.

• IE It's common: The neighbourhoods of the capital erupted into celebrations. Elders hugged, laughed, drank 'thandai' -- an intoxicant made of 'bhang' or cannabis -- and offered sweet gujiyas to visitors.

• My Bangalore Holi is celebrated on “Phalgun Purnima” day, the last full moon day of lunar calendar. People enjoy the day by applying colorful abeer and gulal on each other’s face, throwing them in the air as well as having thandai or bhang.

• The Huffington Post, in its coverage of Holi, says this in its second paragraph: Holi celebrations are particularly riotous in India as social rules are relaxed. Colored water is squirted on passers-by, and people are dunked into muddy water. Many people consume bhang, an intoxicating drink made from the female cannabis plant.

• Atlantic bhang—cannabis leaves that are crushed, mixed into drinks and sweets, and often served during Hindu holidays like Holi... it’s one day of the year when consuming marijuana is socially acceptable. There are even Bollywood songs extolling bhang’s virtues...

• TOI Legend has it that Lord Shiva loved to guzzle bhang, and hence the tradition of mixing bhang on this crazy day of colours.

I am concerned that censorship is being embraced at this page using ignorance as an excuse. No one can argue with a straight face, having done any bit of research into this, that Bhang should not be defined in the Intro of this article (and flushed out further in the body), and that it is not nearly synonymous with Holi (" unless you're Mormon). To call my attempt to add a simple definition "original research" indicates that you may need to do a bit more research of your own into the role of Bhang in Holi celebrations.petrarchan47tc 03:14, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

(@Petrarchan47: «flushed out further in the body» : should be "fleshed out".) --Thnidu (talk) 17:08, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

@Petrarchan47 - There is a difference between the following: (1) If Holi has an official drink, it's bhang. (2) Bhang is the official drink of Holi. The former discloses a conditional doubt, which cannot be rewritten as the latter. Doing so is original research. None of the other sources are scholarly reliable WP:RS sources. Commercial ad like casual newspaper articles are not reliable. For example, The New Indian Express source, above, is titled, "Enjoy Bhang at Begum Bazaar." Neither do they consistently and individually conclude that bhang is "official" or "standard" drink, or that it is synonymous with Holi.

Note that the lead should summarize the main. The article should reflect what many different reliable sources consistently suggest. Between the sources you cite above, there is inconsistency - one alleges "bhang is consumed by all", the other claims "many consume bhang" (many is not same as all), yet another mentions "elders" drink 'thandai'. This should make us reflect on what is the most accepted common denominator between the sources.

There is no censorship of bhang in this article. The main article has it already. A mention of bhang belongs in this article, but the claim must match what reliable sources consistently and in common say. You can't cherry pick one source nor can one extrapolate. Find WP:TERTIARY or WP:SECONDARY sources, and then you are welcome to summarize what such reliable sources say about Bhang and Holi.

From sources you have cited so far, the least common denominator is: Bhang, an intoxicating ingredient made from cannabis leaves, is mixed into drinks and sweets and consumed by many during Holi. If you would want to include this or something similar, I am fine with it. Abbey kershaw (talk) 09:12, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

I am happy that the article defines Bhang. Most wouldn't have known what was being discussed. Thank you. petrarchan47tc 07:25, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

Formosa Fun Coast explosion

After the terrible news of the Formosa Fun Coast explosion, I think it would be very useful if those who have researched these celebrations could explain in the article whether similar fire hazards exist at other Holi-themed events or even in Holi itself. Was this was a unique error in the Taiwan company's event? Wnt (talk) 13:33, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Apparently they were using cornstarch (although the article also claims the powder was an unknown substance), whereas to my knowledge, Holi festivals in India use chalk powder. I don't believe this was "Holi themed" even though the powder looks similar. Holi is a religious celebration, whereas this second annual "Color Play Asia" party was held as part of a concert. I've never heard of a Holi celebration held indoors, along with electronics and related sparks, as was the Taiwan event. Hopefully some sources will address this valid question. petrarchan47คุก 19:46, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

If you actually read this wiki article you would know that many other combustible materials are used in traditional Holi, all commercial Holi powder is made from cornstarch because its safe to eat or breath. Chalk dust would likely suffocate and cause lung damage if used on a large scale as happened in Taiwan. The event was outside, if it was indoors there would have been hundreds death from building collapse. Could someone restore the reference to the water park disaster, its essential that people understand the fire risks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.6.103.110 (talk) 18:07, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Do not restore:

Anonymous 80.6.103.110, if you actually read the Formosa Fun Coast explosion wiki article, you would know that this was not a Holi celebration:

The "Color Play Asia" party was inspired by the Hindu religious festival "Holi", or "festival of colors", celebrated in India and Nepal. However, the powder used in Taipei was made in Taiwan.*

In August 2013, the first Taiwanese color party took place in Sizihwan, Kaohsiung City. It was organized by the same event company for "Color Play Asia".** That same year, a National Tsing Hua University expert warned that the colored powder used during the Color Play Asia parties might cause a dust explosion if the material was combustible.

* The first paragraph quoted above references a Vancouver Sun article, which mentions Holi exactly once. Copy-paste from the article:

Taiwan Premier Mao Chi-kuo banned use of the powder at future private events. Colored powder is often thrown on revelers during the annual Holi celebrations in India and Nepal, a Hindu festival. The powder at Saturday's party was made in Taiwan, Chou said.

** The event was not a Holi celebration or any kind of Hindu event. It was a "Color Play Asia" party arranged by a company ("color creative play" in the Google translation below) together with the fun park ("Eight Immortals"). Here's what Google Translate made of two paragraphs from the chinatimes.com article referenced in the second paragraph quoted above ("...same event company for `Color Play Asia´"). As a translation it stinks, but it's clear enough that this was a commercial event inspired by Holi but not otherwise connected with Holi or Hinduism in any way:

Organizer "color creative play," said the party was inspired by India color "Color Festival" for the Indians at the time Dongmochunchu to spill toner each other to celebrate the holiday. Taiwan's first worldwide hit, and to build for the first time the introduction of "color party" also has been an unmistakable trend in the world "Color Run road race color" segment.

"Color Party" in August last year for the first time held in Kaohsiung West Bay Beach, attracting nearly 6,000 participants, and by critics, so the organizers planning for the annual event, and willingness to consider suitable venue, the cooperation with the Eight Immortals, into North Taiwan held the first two games color party. September will move to Taichung Ukraine held the first three games.

For a clearer discussion of the commercial organizer, here's another paragraph from the Vancouver Sun article:

Taiwan police recommended charges of professional neglect and public endangerment for party organizer Lu Chung-chi, who was arrested but released on bail of 1 million Taiwan dollars (US$32,000) and restricted from leaving the island, a New Taipei City police spokesman said.

Please {{Ping}} me to discuss. --Thnidu (talk) 19:57, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

It turns out that it was the confluence of special conditions at the Taiwanese concert that made it so different from the Holi experience. Details petrarchan47คุก 21:38, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

@Petrarchan47: As far as that article that you cited is concerned, it would be far more accurate to say that it was a confluence of factors that increased the likelihood of this disaster. None of the factors mentioned, AFAICT, specifically relate to the nature of a Holi celebration.

There are six [five? --Thnidu (talk)] factors which contribute to explosions of this type, Lu said. They are the fineness of the dust, its density and kinetic energy, the degree of moisture and the energy needed to ignite the particles and cause a chain explosion, Lu said.

While you probably don't get these factors at a Holi celebration with anything like the values that were probably in effect at the Fun Coat event, that's because people at Holi celebrations have been doing this for a long time and know what they're doing. --Thnidu (talk) 23:10, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

True; nothing about the Formosa event erlates to Holi besides the powder. The event planners bought 3 tons of the powder and shot it at the crowd from some kind of device. I don't think it makes sense to mention this tragedy in the Holi article. petrarchan47คุก 06:57, 4 July 2015

@Petrarchan47: I agree. It's out, and it can stay out. --Thnidu (talk) 22:15, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

I think it definitely should be mentioned, in the "Influence on other cultures" section, which talks about "Holi-inspired" events. Whatever the reason, however unfair, I think that many people reading about Holi events who haven't experienced one are going to wonder --- do they use the same kind of powder that caught on fire in Taiwan? From the article I infer no, but it would be helpful if someone can address it. If there's an article that makes the comparison and describes those five/six factors it would be a great thing to reference. Wnt (talk) 22:07, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

@Wnt and Petrarchan47: a very good point. Can you look into that? Pls {{ping}}. --Thnidu (talk) 04:51, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

I can help. We might consider creating a "Holi powder" section at this article, and the issues discussed above can be added to it. The powder used in Formosa was exactly the same as is used in India. This same powder is used in the Color Run as well. This is really the only source I have, but it might be enough for now. petrarchan47คุก 05:29, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Not one single mention of the possibility of a dust explosion. Jidanni (talk) 17:19, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

Is not flammable? Read the disclaimer on http://www.festivalofcolorsusa.com/buy-holi-powder/and-colors-bulk/ . Looks dense enough to me, as do some of the pictures on this wiki page. Jidanni (talk) 17:36, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

@Jidanni: Do you mean that this article should mention the risk of a dust explosion? The use of powder in the Formosa disaster was very different from the use at Holi events:
 

1. extremely large quantity (3 tons purchased)
2. sprayed into the crowd at high pressure, vs. being tossed by the handful at individuals in the crowd by other members of the crowd, or in water balloons
3. semi-enclosed space (an empty swimming pool) vs. open air ("the open streets, open parks, outside temples and buildings")
4. extensive use of electrical and electronic equipment (lights, music, the sprayers?...)
5. smoking
6. lack of experience with the powder
    

Petrarchan47 has suggested adding a section on influence on other cultures (comment just above yours). It might fit in there. But if we mention the disaster at all, we must describe these differences.
 

Is there any record at all of such explosions/deflagrations at actual Holi celebrations? None of the sources I've looked at have mentioned any. Holi celebrations include the Holika bonfire, but that's always on the evening before Holi itself.

Please {{Ping}} me to discuss. --Thnidu (talk) 22:13, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes, Thnidu, I agree we must discuss the vast differences. It is a shame that the Formosa event is being characterized as "based on Holi", when the only similarity is the colored powder. How do you think we can work this information into this and the Formosa Fun Coast Explosion articles? petrarchan47คุก 01:37, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

@Thnidu: Yes, at least like The Color Run#Safety concerns, and fast, before another explosion occurs! Jidanni (talk) 14:16, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Thnidu Jidanni According to a BBC investigation into the combustible nature of dust in general: "the crucial element is NOT the composition of the powder itself, but whether it's deployed under high pressure with a flame nearby."

The purveyor of the powder used at Formosa said, "Whether it's corn starch or flour starch, this kind of stuff, no matter how long it's been around, if it's in dense quantities and if it's hot, it can catch fire"

As Thnidu notes, the differences are immense - we are comparing the use of colored powder when thrown by hand in a religious ceremony with a concert where 3 tons of powder was sprayed using a high powered device of some sort. I have begun the process of adding this information to the article, and will continue to add details here as they come in. In my part of the world, this explosion has dropped from the news completely; there is nothing new since Jun 29 to which I can refer. Please add links here to anything you might be able to find regarding the investigation and further details. petrarchan47คุก 01:34, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

All I know is one person lighting a cigarette, static spark in the above picture sure sounds like enough of the conditions mentioned in dust explosion. Maybe only on sunny days, who knows. Cross your fingers. But who wants to take the risk? Anyway half the victims [2] are Medical_state#Critical: indicators are unfavorable: one step away from dead on that list of conditions. Anyway one BBC experiment doesn't cancel out all the others. Jidanni (talk) 03:10, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

This is an effort to gather all the relevant data available, not to cancel anything out. Please bring sources to help. Original research (see WP:OR) cannot be used in the articles. The powder in this case was shot through a device - 3 tons of it. The use at this concert and in Holi celebrations couldn't be more dissimilar, and one has to take into consideration the fact that we have never heard of an explosion during the ancient tradition of using Holi powder. If reliable sources aren't claiming that Holi celebrations are dangerous, we cannot insinuate that here, even though keeping people from harm is a top priority. Thnidu is right to suggest we elucidate in the article the various factors which must be present for an explosion to occur. petrarchan47คุก 04:09, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

Petrachan47 - This section is a welcome addition. The emphasis should be on what the cited sources emphasize - powders of agricultural products, flammable powder, combustible powder and such. The high pressure suspension of large volumes is also significant, and I am delighted that you mentioned it in the article. None of the cited sources, unless I missed something, speak of powders in small quantities and hand application, or when mixed with water, as I am told is the tradition in South Asia. One of the sources you added, Asia One, mentions all flours, powder of almost everything in a usual kitchen, can be explosive in certain circumstances - I have added this, as it is a significant list of potential sources of Holi powder. BTW, the "NOT composition" claim of BBC must be understood in its context - the preceding discussion is between corn starch and rice powder. Oxide powder dust suspensions do not combust, else dust storms in Australia, the Middle East and the Sahara desert would be massively exploding every year. Abbey kershaw (talk) 13:27, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

ps...... The science of dust explosions 1 (Vallero and Letcher, p. 59-66), when it occurs and when it doesn't. See the discussion on LEL on p. 65; low concentrations are safe, that is why there is no grain flour explosion in kitchen when one is handling flour and cooking. Kitchen-type volumes are typically used in traditional Holi. The Formosa Fun Coast tragedy was a commercial color party event, 3 ton scale. Abbey kershaw (talk) 13:48, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, Abbey - your changes and reasoning are excellent. I noticed this at the end of the section: Vallero and Letcher write there must be sufficient concentration of flammable dust in air for an explosion to occur, a concentration that is not achieved in small volume usage of powders.

I removed it for now because it's addition seems to be verging on OR. it's also not very specific - what is a "small volume"? Is the reader to assume we are speaking of the use in Holi celebrations? i don't think the images in the article give the impression of "small volumes". What we need is a reference that specifically compares the use at the Color Party with Holi and lists the facts such as volume, velocity, etc.; we can't perform our own investigation. I think the bullet points further up in this thread might be better - they come from an article directly referencing the Taipei tragedy. petrarchan47คุก 17:37, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

References

Petrachan47 - I moved the George Williamson sentence you added here, and added some more text from the same source for completeness + NPOV. Abbey kershaw (talk) 18:14, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

You're the best. But I still think it's a problem. We are conducting our own investigation here (WP:OR). The entry now states that "high volume" is represented by the inability to see through the dust cloud - that would include Holi according to the image in this thread (scroll up). We need only to wait for more articles covering the aftermath and investigation of the Formosa explosion, and we can use them to make these clarifications. I think we shouldn't attempt to do it ourselves. petrarchan47คุก 18:28, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

Petrachan47 - Excellent point. I too feel uncomfortable with the Holi-related OR and Synthesis implicit in Williamson paragraph and the whole section. Perhaps, we should delete that whole section, because it wasn't Holi, and the way Formosa concert applied corn starch is not the way Holi is celebrated. Should we wait till a better description of the "dust cloud at Formosa rock concert" comes out? We don't want to spook or misrepresent their cultural practice, nor imply that Holi powders used, manually or with water, in small quantities in South Asia produces "explosive dust clouds". Why not limit this to Color party-events and Formosa-tragedy related wiki articles?

No, the image above (scroll up) is not a dust cloud, just like it isn't a "dust cloud" when we handle flour in our kitchens to produce a dough. A dust cloud is not a collection of "puffs of dust" over a region. It is technically a fog, uniform and continuous. Holi colors, the way they are used don't produce a "dust cloud", they produce kitchen-like "puffs of dust". In the centuries of its annual practice in South Asia by millions, I have not read one instance of Holi powder or water spray-related dust explosion while it was being used by tens/hundreds of millions of people. Or may be, we need to write it in a way that clarifies that the situation in Formosa is not typical of South Asian Holi practices as Jidanni and Thnidu discuss above. Abbey kershaw (talk) 18:51, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

Holi celebrations, Pushkar, Rajasthan.

But see this Rajasthan image (left). Jidanni (talk) 22:53, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

@Abbey kershaw: (BTW, our colleague's username has two Rs in it: Petrarchan47, evoking the Italian poet Petrarch, not a Japanese nickname.) --Thnidu (talk) 16:31, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

@Abbey kershaw and Petrarchan47: How about a brief mention of the risks of colored powder under certain circumstances, and the fact that while there have been no such problems at actual Holi events, there has been at least one notable disaster from careless massive commercial use of colored powder, referencing Dust explosion? That's where any details really belong, there and Formosa Fun Coast explosion. --Thnidu (talk) 17:19, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Well, we really do have to stick with the guidelines - we cannot tie dust explosions in with Holi unless RS has done so. Abbey is right - we have no choice per PAGs but to wait for RS to mention this. petrarchan47คุก 23:20, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

@Petrarchan47 and Abbey kershaw: I have added one sentence to § Influence on other cultures, at the end of the last paragraph, which discusses concerns about the differences between commercial Holi-like events and genuine Holi celebrations:

One such commercial, nonreligious event in Taiwan, which involved spraying three tons of powder over the crowd at high velocity (as opposed to the use of handfuls of powder by individual Holi celebrants), ended in a disastrous dust explosion.

ISTM that this is the appropriate place to hrefer to the Formosa explosion, and that the context merits mention of the differences in the use of the powder. --Thnidu (talk) 04:17, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

I sure appreciate the effort. In my opinion, it should be based on a RS and the language should come from the source. We are still doing WP:OR with the above addition. One problem is the lack of follow-up RS on the explosion, and we still don't have a source differentiating between the concert and Holi with regard to the way powder is used. Yes, we know that it is thrown by hand during Holi, and never shot at high velocity, but we don't have a source to cite for this statement. We also don't know that 3 tons were shot, we only know that the event organizer purchased that amount. petrarchan47คุก 06:05, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

@Petrarchan47: (Sigh.) Yah. — I may have been misled into thinking we actually had WP:RS for use of the 3 tons by your use up above, "The powder in this case was shot through a device - 3 tons of it", which of course is not on the page itself. I've commented out that part of the sentence pending RS for it, and added mention of some cancellations (with refs) taken from The Color Run#Safety concerns.

I'm also dubious about the caption on the right-hand infobox of pictures, "Holi festival is increasingly celebrated outside India, in many parts of the world", as many of these are not Holi celebrations. But it's almost 5 a.m. local and I'm not doing any more editing tonight! --Thnidu (talk) 08:58, 14 July 2015 (UTC) (Happy Bastille Day!)

It will always be a work in progress, this page. As for the caption, although bastardized Holi events do take place, it is also true that religious Holi celebrations have extended beyond India. Perhaps that was the intended meaning, or is it referring to concerts and marathons? petrarchan47คุก 19:44, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

@Petrarchan47 and Abbey kershaw: I checked out the details for those image files and their sources as well as I could. Some have little info, and at least one is a dead link, but none is clearly a non-religious event.

Observing that the first ¶ of "Influence on other cultures" is about actual Holi celebrations outside India and the 2nd and 3rd are about non-religious "Holi-inspired" events, I've put in a level 3 subhead after the first: "Holi-inspired events" (without quotation marks), which ought to be NPOV enough. Might add some specific links later on. --Thnidu (talk) 20:12, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Holi in Mauritius

@Aditi1605: Thank you for adding this information to the article on Holi § Importance of the Festival. However, you did not give a reference for it. Wikipedia requires almost all information to be verifiable from a reliable source, even if you yourself know it to be true.

I have tagged your addition citation needed. You, or any other Wikipedian, can remove the tag as soon as the information is referenced from a reliable source.

Please {{ ping}} me if you want to discuss this. --Thnidu (talk) 19:48, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

I've found a reference and put it in. Thnidu (talk) 00:37, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Please fix

"Pink contains cancer" ?

removed typo

removed typo "others[l]".

Also:

"... a certain community..."?

Multan and Prahlada

@Abbey kershaw:Thanks Abbey kershaw I have found the following reference; Is this okay to be used in the main article to reference Multan with Prahlada?Malikhpur

@Abbey kershaw:Abbey kershaw I have inserted the reference to Multan in the article.

Malikhpur 11 March 2015

Missing

This article is great but there need to be some benchods added. 86.185.223.7 (talk) 21:45, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

86.185.223.7: I disagree, you who dare not say your name. With your comment, this article now has more than enough bhenchod involvement. --Thnidu (talk) 01:01, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Hiranyakashipu vs. Hiranyakashyap

As of 19:09, 3 January 2016, Vanamonde93 edited § History and Significance with the following memo:

Reverted 1 pending edit by 103.250.115.201 to revision 697194322 by Strangerpete: The original link appears to be correct

Either would work. Hiranyakashyap is a redirect to Hiranyakashipu, created 18:06, 20 August 2010‎ and not edited since. --Thnidu (talk) 04:09, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Thnidu, yes, this is true; "Hiranyakashyap" is indeed a redirect to "Hiranyakashipu." However, WP:BRINT (which is the relevent editing guideline) states that redirects from a misspelling should be corrected. In this particular case, there is no correct spelling as such, because all the spellings are transliterations; but unless there is a very good reason not to do so, the guideline would suggest that the common spelling, which is the title of the article, should be used. Vanamonde93 (talk) 05:11, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

@Vanamonde93: Thanks for the explanation. I thought they might be transcriptions from different languages or dialects. --Thnidu (talk) 19:03, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

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"northern India"

In the third paragraph, Bloomtalk changed "It is primarily observed in India..." to "It is primarily observed in northern India...", with the edit comment "Corrected Content as per gov.nic.in"; Kevintampa5 changed it back.

Bloomtalk, you're new to Wikipedia, unless you've been editing anonymously or under another name. Wikipedia doesn't allow "original research"; all information has to have a reliable source. You mentioned a source website in the edit comment: "Corrected Content as per gov.nic.in". That's better than nothing, but it's not good enough:

1. It should be in the article to be accessible to readers. Edit comments only show up in the article history.
2. It should be properly referenced. There are several formats, but most important to link to the actual page, not just a website. Read Help:Referencing for beginners.
3. The source must actually exist. There's no such site as http://gov.nic.in. I'm assuming that's simply a typo or mistake, and hoping so. Hm?

--Thnidu (talk) 17:09, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

Holi - A Celebration of Harvest

India has traditionally remained an agrarian economy, heavily dependent on monsoons. Monsoons determine the fate of agricultural output and a good season returns bumper crops. By September end, monsoons are over and crop ready for rich yield. It is believed that in order to nourish his children, Vishnu (God/Indra) is duty bound to provide food. He does so by providing good showers and his subjects, i.e., people have a rightful claim to the food produced courtesy rains. Hence, readers would notice that there are no vedic harvest festivals after Baisakhi.

Vishnu gives the second crop out of sheer love and kindness for his dear followers, multitudes inhabiting the earth. In India, there is virtually no rain between Diwali and Rath Yatra. It is this period of Vedic festivals, namely, Sharad Purnima, Lohri / Makar Sankranti, Basant Panchmi, Holi and Baisakhi which are called the Harvest Festivals. New crop, without the mercy of rain, in winters is produced by personal intervention of the divine. Hence these festivals are the thanks giving to the supreme for his grace and kindness. Holi the chief festival amongst these vedic festivals. Being a community festival universally celebrated by all castes and social classes together (including ethnic minorities and non-Hindu religion followers), people organize a big bonfire and make the first offering of newly harvested crop produce (especially chana) to the Holy Fire. In complete gratitude, on Holi, offering of fresh crop produce to the fire (Havan) is the original Vedic method of thanks giving to the Supreme.

Arya Samaj also interprets the significance of Holi festival in the same manner.

WP.Sanjay (talk) 10:18, 12 March 2017 (UTC)Sanjay ChowdharyWP.Sanjay (talk) 10:18, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

holi is not important as dashain and tihar in Nepal

It is not. People do not go to their home, nor there is a long holiday. It is celebrated over two days. Ethnicities in hills celebrate one day earlier than ethnicities in terai (plains). Each group though marks only one day. People celebrate around their temporary residence. Students don't bother to go home. They celebrate in hostels, and so do other work people in their workplace with colleagues. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.235.198.35 (talk) 14:34, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

I reworded the Nepal section and added a source. If you have additional suggestions or reliable sources, please share. Welcome to wikipedia, Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 15:11, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

Holi is not Celebrated in Tamilnadu

Holi festival is not a known festival to anyone in Tamilnadu. The festival Kaman Vila or Kaman Pandigai, that appears in medieval era Hindu texts as Kaman Vilavu or Villavan Vilavu is no where related to Holi festival. No notable feature of friends dressing up as Kama and Rati, and roaming the streets to play with colours, collect treats or money happened in Tamilnadu History of Festivals. Only in Sowcarpet, Chennai among the north Indian Marwari Settlements this festival is celebrated every year. It is also the celebrated among the college students in Tamilnadu that come from north Indian parts.They celebrate in hostels, and so do other work people in their workplace with colleagues. So Holi is not given much importance as Pongal in Tamilnadu. I can share all those relevant news on Holi not celebrated in Tamilnadu. If you have any suggestions please share here. immanueldc (talk) 10:13, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

@immanueldc: You are mistaken. Please avoid OR and the blog-like FORUM-y sharing of your personal wisdom / opinions / prejudices, as that is not constructive. We need to stick to summarizing what the sources are stating. If you or someone else has reliable sources that discuss Holi in Tamil Nadu's context, that would be welcome. Ms Sarah Welch (talk)

Holi in Algeria?

@Haploidavey: I don't understand why you reverted my recent edit on the article (adding Template:Public holidays in Algeria). Holi is widely celebrated in Algiers, Béjaïa, Oran and many other cities of Algeria, since three years. These are sources (in French): 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.... Just search for Holi Algeria and you will get thousands of results. Please insert the template again and stop reverting without any reason. — Sincerely カビル 10:00, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

Not for no reason, as I made clear on your talk page (from which I quote): By your reasoning, we should thus add the template to every article on every public holiday in every country in which Holi has been unofficialy or casually observed, as long as the proceedings have been attested in news sources. I'm afraid that makes no sense to me at all, and I'm fairly sure that was not the original purpose of such templates. We'd probably best see what others say about this; re-add if you wish, but I'm not convinced it will remain for long. Haploidavey (talk) 10:11, 29 March 2017 (UTC).

Just to be clear; what you've added and cited above would justify a sourced mention of Algeria as a country in which Holi is celebrated. It does not, imo, justify the addition of a/the template. Haploidavey (talk) 10:26, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

I agree with Haploidavey. @カビル: The source is discussing The Color Run-type event in August (other links point to a June event). This article is about the Hindu festival of Holi, which is observed in spring. Further, even the August/June celebration is not a "public holiday" in Algeria, just a private party-like event per the sources. Perhaps we should add the Algeria event to the Holi-inspired events section of this article? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 22:03, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

@カビル:: You need an RfC for this. If we follow your rationale, this article will have numerous templates such as "Public holidays in Europe", etc. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 22:10, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

Exactly so, Ms Sarah Welch on all points -- though I hadn't noticed the date variations. The template links to a list-article on officially recognised festivals in Algeria, and gives their dates. And that's that. An RfC might be helpful. Haploidavey (talk) 22:24, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

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Non-RS website

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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20160324085401/http://www.gsofny.org/th_gallery/holi-festival/ to http://gsofny.org/th_gallery/holi-festival/
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130914072453/http://suriname2013.com/reality/27-march-2013-festival-of-colors/ to http://suriname2013.com/reality/27-march-2013-festival-of-colors/
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Redirect from rangapanchami is wrong

Rangapanchami is redirected to this Holi page which is wrong. Rang Panchami/ Rangaphanchami literally colour on the fifth is celebrated as the name suggests on the fifth day ie Panchami. Holi is a full moon day festival. There is a separate page named Rang Panchami. I just cleaned it. But I don't know how to remove the redirect and merge the pages Rangapanchami and Rang Panchami. I prefer the first spelling as it is closer to the Marathi pronounciation rather than the second one which is closer to Hindi pronounciation. But I am not sure of the Wikipedia rules for spellings of indian names. The confusion is created because many northern Indian areas celebrated festical of colour on Holi or next day while Maharashtra, Madhyapradesh, and some parts around Mathura celbrate festival of colours on Panchami day. Please do not add to the confusion by redirecting to the Holi page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.92.40.233 (talk) 10:40, 27 February 2018 (UTC) Kaveri (talk) 11:29, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

Holi in these regions is celebrated by burning the Holika or Kaam like in the southern parts of India. By mixing that ritual with the festival of colours it has already created an article biased towards northern India than southern India. I have edited the text in one place to add 'In northern parts of India' in one place to make it less biased but this needs much more thought to make it fair for the traditions of entire country not just northern India. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.92.40.233 (talk) 10:59, 27 February 2018 (UTC) Kaveri (talk) 11:29, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

Article Value

This page losing value because of so many Wikipedia users watching this article, and making Reverted Reverted Reverted every one is become genius! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ramp.fueler (talk • contribs) 19:02, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

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Edit regarding Gallery

Wouldn't it be better if the number of images in the Gallery Section would have been reduced and it would be converted into a template just like "Holi Celebrations in other cultures"? Justlookingforthemoment (talk) 13:50, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

spread through the diaspora from the Indian subcontinent

This statement is questionable. This event is popular solely due to the colors, not due to Hindu religion. The managers who organize these events throughout the world seem to be German. --2001:16B8:31A4:9A00:24DC:A483:B8E6:4DB8 (talk) 10:06, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Samir103 (talk • contribs) 12:15, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

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Adding section of Pilgrimage sites associated with Holi festival

As i know as per the Uttar Pradesh, India government there are some places which are associated with Holi origin and people pay respect/worship those places on a regular basis like 1. Prahlad Ghat/Kund in Hardoi district, Uttar Pradesh. This was the same place where Prahlad was born and his sister Holika tried killing him by sitting on fire and the places was earlier named as Hari+Drohi (Hardoi). https://hardoi.nic.in/tourist-place/prahlaad-kundhardoi/ https://navbharattimes.indiatimes.com/astro/dharam-karam/vrat-tyohar/holi-2019-know-the-place-where-actual-holika-dahan-had-burned-57137/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anuragg1988 (talk • contribs) 11:03, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

Holi Festival In India

Holi Festival in India Holi Festival in India is a popular ancient Hindu festival, originating from the Indian subcontinent. It is celebrated predominantly in India, but also spread to other areas of Asia and Other parts of western world through the diaspora form the Indian Subcontinent.

Holi Festival in India is considered as one of the most revered and celebrated festivals of India and it is celebrated in almost every part of the country. It is also sometimes called as the “festival of Love” as on this day people get to unite together forgetting all resentments and all types of bad feeling towards each other. The great Indian festival lasts for a day and a night, which starts in the evening of Purnima or the Full Moon Day in the month of Falgun. Holi celebration in India with the name of Holika Dahan or Choti Holi on first evening of the Holi Festival and the following day is called Holi. In different parts of the country it is known with different names.

Holi Festival in India is one of the most colourful festivals of Incredible India. In this festival, friends and family throw colored water and color powders on each other to make celebrations in the second day long festival. There is laughter, happiness, and you can spot coloured people and people in colour clothes on the streets during this festival. While many people all over India is aware of the colours and Holi Celebration, There are few who know the significance and how is the Holi Festival Celebrate in India.

Holi Festival in India is the most colourful festival. Get excited about this glorious Holi Celebration, with all the glowing neon colours, water ballons and have special gujja( Indian Sweet Snack) and dance around the popular numbers like the Balam Pichkaris and Holi Khele Raghuveera and do me a Favor let splay Holi etc. Must try out bhang to feel the actual taste of Holi. People chasing each other with water guns and packets of Gulal (Colour) and spattering everybody in colours.

The vibrancy of colors is something that brings in lot of positivity in our lives and Holi Festival in India being the festival of colours is actually a day worth rejoicing. Holi Festival in India is a famous Hindu festival that is celebrated in every part of India with utmost joy and enthusiasm. The ritual starts by Lighting up the bonfire one day before the day of Holi Festival and this process symbolizes the triumph of good over the bad. On the day of Holi Festival people play with colours with their friends and families and in evening they show love and respect to their close.

Traditional Holi Festival in India is the biggest at Mathura and Vrindavan, about three hours from Delhi, where Lord Krishna is believed to have grown up. However, safety issues are a concern for women there, due to the rowdy behaviout of many local men. So, it’s best to travel as Part of a Guided Group Tour.

History Behind Holi Festival in India Holi is taken from the name of a mythological femal demon known as “Holika”. As per the scriptures form the Vedas this female demon died burning when she tried to burn her demon brother King Hiranyakashyap’s Son. So, in order to celebrate the victory over evil, the next day people smeared each other’s faces with her ashes that remained in the fire as symbolic ritual. Over time, this turned to colouring the faces of each other with different colours during this festival period.

What is Holi Festival The main importance of significance of the ‘Festival of Colours’ is that it marks the arrival of Harvest of Spring season. There are two main sections in this festival – Holika Dahan and Rangwali Holi. The colourful festival is also mentioned in the Sanskrit literature and Hindu mythology. This joyous festival full of excitement and exuberance dates back to almost 4th century AD. There is also an ancient mythological famous play known as ‘Ratnaval’ where the scenes of Holi is described exactly.

Rituals of Holi Festival People think that Holi is about colouring each other but there are many other rituals. The rituals performed during the festival of colours are practiced among many people, associations, and even orfanizations. Each of these rituals have a significance towards something that happened in mythological times. These are the most popular rituals that people perform during Holi Festival.

The emphasis of Holi rituals is on the burning of demoness Holika. On the eve of Holi, large bonfires are lit to mark occasion. This is known as Holika Dahan. As well as conducting a special puja, people sing and dance around the fire, and walk around it three times. In some part of India, people even walk across the hot coals of the fire, Such fire walking is considered to be sacred. One place where it happens is Saras village near Surat in Gujarat.

This Is one of the most popular way of celebrating Holi even among the non-Hindus all over the country. This form of Holi Celebration has also been incorporated in various celebrations and ceremonies all across the world for different purposes. This ritual has a mythical connection of the story of Holika the female demon and her King brother Hinranyakashyap, burned ashes.

In the pre-historic times, they smeared each other with their ashes after the lady devil burned in the pyre as she set a trap for the King Hiranyakshyap’s son. Then Lord Vishnu also burned him down and the people smeared each other with his ashes. The same is followed here today but this is done with bright colourful powders.

The Festival of Holi lasts for two days but the rituals and celebrations happen days before the main festival. On the full moon evening of Holi, there is one custom carried out by people at many places they collect wooden logs put them in a heap and light up a pyre. This burning is symbolic to burning of Holika knowns as Holika Dhan and preparaions for this rutual starts before. For this ritual people gather around the burning pyre and women also wear traditional clothes and sing bhajans or praises to Lord Vishnu.

How Holi is Celebrated in India This is a crowded and exuberant festival where you can find people of all ages, genders, family, friends, poor and rich – everybody gather to enjoy and celebrate the festival of colours. There are generally local bands or musicians that play the Dhol which is a wooden drum commonly used by South Asian people for plays, show, Culture Performatnces.

People also run away from others trying to put colour on them and themselves try to put colour on others faces, etc. So, you can see a person suddenly running from other coloured people on the streets, in public areas, children’s parks, temples, etc. The shops will be selling water sprinklers, water balloons, etc. and many kids will be using these to celebrate. There is also loud music played and some people also organize fun events for localities or colonies.

The famous intoxicating ‘Thandai’ meaning cold is a watery paste made from opium plants and is popularly called ‘Bhang’. The men generally drink this like a way of celebration and also get drunk. The time of Holi is aslo a time to get together with family and friends especially in the evening time.

In the evening people wash off the colours which stay on for days or even weeks and are dressed in new and special traditional clothes. The women of the households also prepare special delicacies and yummy desserts. Some of them include the kachoris, thandai, fruit bowl, gujiya and other sweet dishes.

People spend the day smearing coloured powder all over each other’s faces, throwing coloured water at each other, having parties and dancing under water sprinklers. Bhang, a paste made from cannabis plants, is also traditionally consumed as part of the celebrations.

Why is Holi Festival Called The Festival of Colours Lord Krishna, the re-incarnation of Lord Vishnu was born blue in colour. He got miffed with the strange colour that he had on his skin and that he was different from the others on his skin. When he met Radha he smeared her face also with a clolor that lasts for a lengthy time in order to make it equal between them. This is another reason why people smear each other with the bright colours.

Where is Holi Celebrated in India Holi is celebrated at all the stated in India and many countries where there are Hindus especially in Nepal. Durbar Square is a Famous Place to Visit in Nepal to view the exuberant Holi Celebration. In India, Different regions are known for different ways of celebrations or rituals performed during Holi.

Mathura & Vrindhavan Traditional Holi If you want to enjoy a Holi festival without commercialization, we recommend you to visit Mathura of Vrindavan. Mathura is an ancient city and is believed to be the place where Lord Krishna was born. On Holi day, people start a long procession with music, dance and celebration from the temple to the Holi Gate. This marks the beginning of Holi Festival, which takes place for one week.

The location of celebration in Vrindavan is Banke Bihari temple. On the day before Holi, thousand of people visit the temple to participate in the Holi of God. Pries spray colour water on the deity and on the devotees. The devotees chant in unison. It is a wonderful site to watch cultural and ritual activities.

On the Holi day, the celebrations start at 9 am in the morning. People throw colour powder at each other inside the temple. Devotees specifically dress in light colours or white for enjoying the colours. Right outside the temple, you can find street foods, shops for souvenir shopping and much more.

Holi in Barsana Barsana is a small village located near Mathura of Uttar Pradesh. This village still stick to the culture and tradition of the land, as a daily routine. When it festival is celebrated with and age-old tradition where women of the land beat up men with a small stick decorated with colourful cloth and paper.

This celebration is called Lathmar. Lathmar Holi is played exactly one week in prior to the actual celebration of Holi, Two days before Holi, the village celebrates Ladoo Holi during which all the households in the region make delicacies and share with others. On the Holi day, people conduct special rituals at home and temples before drenching each other with colour water and powder. Tourists are more than welcome to be a part of this celebration.

Holi Festival in India is one of the Important festival of India, which celebrated by all the people of India with colours and enjoy the festival with colours. Know more about HOLI click here — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2409:4064:698:F32C:C186:6446:7930:55E9 (talk) 11:32, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

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Happy holi

Is this festival celebrate in Europe countries if yes please add information about this Happy holi to all (talk) 01:15, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

Date of Holi

In the Description section, the following text is present:

Holi is celebrated at the end of winter, on the last full moon day of the Hindu luni-solar calendar month marking the spring, making the date vary with the lunar cycle.[note 1]

The sentence is correct (though it could do with some rephrasing), but the note is problematic:

1. The note says "Holi falls on the first (full moon) day of Chaitra lunar month's dark fortnight...". This is incorrect. A dark fortnight's first day will be the day after full moon day, i.e. the full moon day itself is included in the preceding bright fortnight. Holi always falls on the full moon day of bright fortnight (shukla purnima). So much so, stating "bright fortnight" is redundant (purnima is always shukla).
2. The note also says Holi falls on Chaitra or Phalguna depending on purnimanta and amanta system respectively. This is also incorrect. All shukla tithis (i.e. lunar days) fall on the same lunar month in both traditions. Only krishna tithis change from one lunar month to another depending on the tithi.

Net net, Holi is always Phalguna purnima. Hence, this note may be removed. Can the author of this note remove it pls? Kishorekumar 62 (talk) 07:32, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

Correction is being reverted without any reason given

Hi, I have given reason why Holi is not primarily a celebration of Radha Krishna Love, it is a festical which started in the Satayuga following defeat of Demon King Hiranyakashyapu. In the Dwapar yuga (which come thousands of years later), it assumed another aspect of Radha Krishna love. But that is primarily in the Braj region, rest of India Holi is about victory of good over evil, hence the Holika Dahan that takes place before Holi celebration. There is no Radha Krishna ritual associated with Holi celebration outsde Braj region. If it was about Radha Krishna love then the festival would have been celebrated only among couples, not with family and friends and the community at large. I wish to know the logic User:Kridha and User:MrOllie have reverted the correction? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shatbhisha6 (talk • contribs) 07:42, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

Exactly, Holi is not a festival celebrating the lov of Radha and Krishna. It celebrates the burning of Holika, Hiranakashyapa's sister Aditya Nirmale (talk) 03:42, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

Do you have any reliable source that backs your claim? WikiLinuz🍁(talk) 18:30, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

"ancient Indian" festival not "ancient Hindu"

Holi is celebrated by even Buddhists, Jains, Sikhs and muslims in India and not only hindus, so please change it to "ancient Indian festival". Just like you don't call "lunar/chinese new year" as "Buddhist new year". Varenxvkx (talk) 02:14, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

yeah that's true. Iam an Indian buddhist and calling it an exclusively hindu festival is not correct. 122.167.17.24 (talk) 02:50, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

See WP:WEIGHT. WikiLinuz {talk} 🍁 02:51, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

It isn't a minority viewpoint. And the term "ancient hindu" doesn't really make much sense. So I'll add "(ancient Indian)" beside it to avoid confusion. 122.167.17.24 (talk) 03:09, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Stick to the sources. WikiLinuz {talk} 🍁 03:15, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

the page mentions it as "ancient hindu" in the first paragraph but mentions it as "ancient indian" in the third paragraph. lol 122.167.17.24 (talk) 03:17, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Need to wp:cite a wp:reliable source to make this change. There are two sources stating "ancient Hindu". Adakiko (talk) 03:18, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

@122.167.17.24: To answer your question, the first mention is about theological significance, and the 3rd paragraph's mention is about the geographies where it's being celebrated. WikiLinuz {talk} 🍁 03:20, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Thanks WikiLinuz. I've specifically asked Varenxvkx to bring in reliable WP:RS sources if they want it changed, as well as asked them to go through WP:NOR and WP:CONSENSUS. As for the terms, both are WP:SYNTH, the sources do not mention Ancient. They say Hindu and Indian, respectively. Also ..is a popular ancient Hindu festival doesn't make sense. Popular refers to modern times and doesn't make sense with 'ancient', since it is popular now. We should remove the ancient part from them and stick to source(s) to comply with WP:NOR. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 10:30, 19 March 2022 (UTC)