Talk:Gulf of Maine

Wording

"The coastline of the Gulf of Maine is predominantly rocky and scenic; the only significant coastal developments are located in the Boston, Portsmouth, Portland and Saint John metropolitan areas. "

This sentence seems strange to me. I have no statistics, but I'd think the New England coast between Cape Cod and probably Portland is one of the more populated parts of any coast in at least America. Granted, we're supposed to have a world view, but compared to, say, the Southeastern US coast or the Pacific Northwest at least, this seems misleading. However, considering Northern Maine and Canada, and my own Hub-of-the-Universe world view, I figured I'd ask for input.

Thanks, CSZero 23:47, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

This article is the only source of information stating the Bay of Fundy is part of the Gulf of Maine.

This article is the only major source of information that suggests the Bay of Fundy is part of the Gulf of Maine and this is also the only piece of information that comes up in a Google search about the subject, for these reasons it has the potential to create a "truth" that is not factual as it can be referenced by many young and/or inexperienced researchers and journalists who have been brainwashed since children to believe their country(America) "runs the world". Other sources of information including other wikipedia articles, ocean charts, and other encyclopedia articles substantiate my claims and refer to the Gulf of Maine and Bay of Fundy as either: 1-separate entities; 2-Bay of Fundy draining into Gulf of Maine; 3-Bay of Fundy draining into Atlantic Ocean; 4-

https://novascotia.ca/nse/ea/whitespointquarry/09.Reference.Documents/15.Fader.Physiography.Geography.and.Bathymetry.pdf

https://www.britannica.com/place/Bay-of-Fundy

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/travel/article/bay-of-fundy-new-brunswick-nova-scotia

https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Bay_of_Fundy

https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/bay-of-fundy-and-gulf-of-maine

https://www.charts.gc.ca/documents/publications/atlas/P241_Atlas_BayOfFundy.pdf

This wiki article and Ken Gallagher's edits contradict multiple sources of information and he refuses to produce a singular piece of information to substantiate his claims that he is right, but he continues to revert my edits without substantiation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stntjnky (talk • contribs) 13:47, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

Glad to see this user has finally taken their issue to the article talk page. All of the sources the user cites are correct, and none of them support the user's edits that claim that the Bay of Fundy is somehow separate from the Gulf, and certainly they do not support the user's claim that the Gulf doesn't reach to Sable Island. As stated very clearly in the last two sources, the Bay of Fundy and the Gulf of Maine are part of a connected ecosystem; if the St. John River flows into the Bay of Fundy, its waters also flow into the Gulf of Maine. Otherwise, if one were to follow the user's conclusions, the Penobscot River flows into Penobscot Bay but not the Gulf of Maine; the Charles River flows into Massachusetts Bay but not the Gulf of Maine, etc. I see the users' edits as misunderstanding what the sources present and reaching an obviously wrong conclusion. Others are welcome to chime in here. --Ken Gallager (talk) 13:30, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

To put it more succinctly: The user's edits make it appear as if the Gulf of Maine does not enter Canada. Is this Stntjnky's intent? Because none of the sources given above support that interpretation. --Ken Gallager (talk) 17:35, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Editor has not responded but instead has tried to restore their false and unsupported claims that the Gulf doesn't enter Canada. --Ken Gallager (talk) 10:01, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

If it is objectionable to describe parts of Canada as being as on Gulf of Maine, because this leads to the conclusion that "America runs the world," than is it not also objectionable to describe parts of the U.S. as being on the Gulf of Mexico? Doesn't that imply that Mexico runs the world? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.66.14.55 (talk) 18:20, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

3O Response: @Stntjnky and Ken Gallager: I'm not sure how widely known the Gulf of Maine is. I'm not surprised that some of the encyclopedia articles on the Bay of Fundy (above) don't mention it – that may suggest it isn't notable for inclusion in the Bay of Fundy article, but doesn't necessarily mean it's untrue. The Canadian Encyclopedia article mentions "the Gulf of Maine and the Bay of Fundy" as though they are separate and distinct. However, I came across this report from Fisheries and Oceans Canada which states: Frequently described as a “sea within a sea”, the Gulf of Maine area includes the Bay of Fundy, the Northeast Channel and Georges Bank. I feel that's a pretty good source. If there are other sources which explicitly contradict this, then the article can say that it is disputed. But based on this cursory examination of sources, I think it's fine for this article to say that the Bay of Fundy is part of the Gulf of Maine.

To address some of the original poster's other points, I believe that the Gulf of Maine was named centuries before Maine became a US state, and the Gulf of Maine isn't American anyway, so there's really no problem there. As an illustrative example, James Bay is part of Hudson Bay and a sea of the Arctic Ocean, and it also drains into Hudson Bay which drains into the Arctic Ocean; these statements may sound contradictory but they aren't. This is a non-binding third opinion, but I hope it helps! – Reidgreg (talk) 00:14, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

I also came across State of the Gulf of Maine Report, produced by the Gulf of Maine Council on the Marine Environment, a binational organization "created in 1989 by the governments of Maine, Massachusetts, New Brunswick, New Hampshire and Nova Scotia, [which] works to foster environmental health and community well-being throughout the Gulf watershed", and published by Fisheries and Oceans Canada. The map on page 3 (and many other maps) shows the "Gulf of Maine Watershed" which definitely includes the Bay of Fundy. Of course the whole can be subdivided into parts and the report points out that different parts have some distinct characteristics. Yet throughout the report the term "Gulf of Maine" is used to refer to the whole. I'm not an expert on the topic by any means, but thought I'd add some support to this very reliable source that is clearly focused specifically on the Gulf of Maine and written by actual oceanographers. I'd be very surprised if there weren't many other reliable sources out there that take this approach as well, but I haven't looked very hard. In any case, this sort of thing is common in geography, where geographic "entities" are frequently considered to be part of some larger entity and also subdivided into internal geographic entities, like Great Lakes-> Lake Huron-> Georgian Bay. There are RS that treat Georgian Bay as a distinct thing separate from Lake Huron, while there are others that treat Lake Huron and Georgian Bay as subdivisions of Lake Michigan–Huron. I suppose if RS are not totally clear one could say something like "some sources treat the Gulf of Maine and the Bay of Fundy separately". But even then are such sources explicitly saying that the bay is not part of the gulf, or are they just treating them separately for convenience, the way some sources talk about Georgian Bay as its own thing without explicitly saying it is part of Lake Huron? Pfly (talk) 04:08, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

Here's another one: Gulf of Maine Ecosystem Overview Report created and published by Fisheries and Oceans Canada directly. It focuses specifically on marine ecosystems and says it "does not deal in detail with the inner coastal shelf and the complexities of the various bays and inlets along the Gulf of Maine coastline", yet includes the "outer Bay of Fundy" as part of the Gulf of Maine not including the various bays...of the Gulf of Maine coastline. It sometimes uses the rather clunky "Gulf of Maine-Bay of Fundy-Georges Bank marine ecosystem", which I think comes from a World Wildlife Fund marine ecoregion designation, but mostly just uses "Gulf of Maine". On page 3 it says "The Gulf of Maine area used in this report includes the Bay of Fundy, the Northeast Channel and Georges Bank, is bounded to the northeast by the Scotian Shelf and is separated from the waters to the southwest (i.e. the southern New England biogeographic area) by a boundary that extends from the southwestern end of Georges Bank towards the tip of Cape Cod, along the deepest part of the Great South Channel..." citing (Conservation Law Foundation (USA) – World Wildlife Fund (Canada) (CLF-WWF) (2006) Marine Ecosystem Conservation for New England and Maritime Canada: A Science-Based Approach to Identifying Priority Areas for Conservation, Conservation Law Foundation WWF–Canada). It then explicitly points out that "Georges Bank...is often considered its own biogeographic area." Seems notable to me that it points this out about Georges Bank but not for the Bay of Fundy. Anyway, it's a 221 page report and I only skimmed the first bits. Probably lots of useful information in there. Pfly (talk) 04:38, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

Marineregions.org includes the Bay of Fundy as part of the Gulf of Maine but the Canadian Geographical Names Database sets the boundaries of the gulf at the south end of Nova Scotia. Volcanoguy 19:20, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, everyone, for the extra sets of eyes. --Ken Gallager (talk) 10:15, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

I feel that it would be worth including in a footnote that sources are in disagreement whether the Bay of Fundy is part of the Gulf of Maine, and cite examples of each. If this is agreeable, let me know if you'd like my help with that. – Reidgreg (talk) 14:28, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

I actually think that type of detail would be more appropriate on the Bay of Fundy page. I'm amenable to further tweaks to the text here, but I do think it's sufficient to say here, as we do, that the bay is part of the Gulf of Maine watershed. Thanks, --Ken Gallager (talk) 14:36, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

I have added additional content relating to the ecology of the area and some structural changes. Please reach out with any questions. Massy719 (talk) 18:22, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Disputed

See statements in the above section. User:Stntjnky has removed from the article information regarding the Canadian extent of the Gulf of Maine, claiming that any statistics for Canada only apply to the Bay of Fundy and not the Gulf of Maine as a whole. --Ken Gallager (talk) 13:41, 12 October 2021 (UTC)