Talk:Great Wall of China/Archive 2

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rfc: reference format clean up

the great wall of china is 550 miles long — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.204.182 (talk) 04:32, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

I think that the best help to get this article to progress out of C-class would be to re-do the references. I think re-examining and re-formatting the references would be a good thing. I find it difficult to work with a main article text with many references embedded throughout the article, rather than being in a more clear Notes section (and, no offense to Ripley' 1938 book, but these do vary considerably in quality). However, I am making a request for comment on this in the interest of group unity/consensus, since it would require a major change to the of the reference format throughout the article. Dcattell (talk) 05:01, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure what citation style you are proposing as there are many possible. Please refer to Example Styles for citations. In addition I don't see what you seek to gain from any changes. Altering citations to create a uniform style is welcome but changing every citation on a personal preference seems pointless. My personal preference by the way is for in-line citations using one of the relevant {cite} templates. The reason being that it makes it clear exactly what section of the article applies to what source. Problems of obscure markup within the text can be negated simply by adding carriage returns before/after the cite template while editing and removing again before saving. This simple task makes reading the text in the editor easy without requiring a complete reworking of the whole reference system. Rincewind42 (talk) 17:24, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

I'd agree that I personally find long-title references embedded in the main text hard to work with for an article of any length, and the existing ones in this article aren't consistent, so they need work one way or another. I'd agree with Rincewind42, though, that for us to reach a valid consensus you'd need to specific about which alt system (harvb, sfn, etc.) you were intending to introduce. Hchc2009 (talk) 17:41, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 December 2014

In section Foreign appreciation of the Wall

• The title "A Treatise of China and the Adjoyning Regions", fix Adjoining
• The phrase "of a European actually entering China" should be "an European"

DNarvaez (talk) 10:33, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

"Adjoyning" is as it appears in the title in Old English. I'll go ahead and fix the second part of your request. _dk (talk) 11:11, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 February 2015

64.114.222.223 (talk) 17:11, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj

 Not done This is not a proper request. Requests must be in the form "change X to Y" or "add Z between P and Q", and must provide reliable sources. Joseph2302 (talk) 17:13, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 March 2015

24.142.34.244 (talk) 14:07, 13 March 2015 (UTC) There's a conflict of tense(s) with the following words:"... had BECAME standard..."

It should read: "...had BECOME standard..."

Open Quote: The current English name evolved from accounts of "the Chinese wall" from early modern European travelers.[19] By the 19th century,[19] "The Great Wall of China" had became standard in English, French, and German, although other European languages continued to refer to it as "the Chinese wall".[13] Close Quote:

24.142.34.244 (talk) 14:07, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

 Fixed Thank you. Joseph2302 (talk) 14:24, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Great Ming Wall

It would seem historical perspectives have been revised so much, that most people believe that there is one singular continuous great wall from pre-history. The reason Marco Polo didn't write about it was that it hadn't been built in his time. China was a colony of the Mongol Empire, only when the Yuan Dynasty rule collapsed was the Great Wall we know today built, the main reason the Ming built it was to prevent Mongolian invasion (and marauding) again. While there has been a great tradition of wall-building in northern China, indeed Mongolia, Manchuria and Korea too, this article should really focus on Ming Dynasty history and since. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.242.81.170 (talk) 03:06, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Facts please!

Just tell me what part of the wall was built at what time to defend whom against whom, and skip the rest, which is extraneous material repeated elsewhere. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cary Cook (talk • contribs) 04:35, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

adding external link

All about The Great Wall of China History,Facts,Tour,Photos — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sahilgoyal7459 (talk • contribs) 12:34, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

Alexander the Great

I don't think the material about Alexander the Great belongs here. As the article, Gates of Alexander, shows, there is a consensus that the legend is connected to some kind of fortification in the Caucasus. It is far-fetched to connect this to China, and no source is cited that does so. The Biblical references are even more irrelevant, as they don't even mention a wall.--Jack Upland (talk) 03:05, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Agreed - go ahead and remove them. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 14:49, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

I concur. It is off topic. Rincewind42 (talk) 16:52, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

I have removed the material for a second time, except the account of Ibn Battuta, who does indirectly link the Wall back to the Alexander legend.--Jack Upland (talk) 02:20, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Marco Polo is not a foreign accounts of the wall

It seems odd that Marco Polo is discussed under "Foreign accounts of the Wall" when it is noted that Marco Polo did not mention the wall at all in his book. Rincewind42 (talk) 16:52, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

I have abbreviated the reference to Marco Polo etc who didn't mention the Wall, but it seems worthwhile to note this fact in passing.--Jack Upland (talk) 02:27, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Edit request: Visibility from space section

In the section "Visibility from space", subsection "From the Moon", the clause "The claim the Great Wall is visible from space has been debunked many times," should be edited. "from space" should be changed to "from the Moon", as the following section provides evidence that the Wall can indeed be seen from low-earth orbit, which is in space. What has been debunked is the claim about visibility from the Moon. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.68.134.1 (talk) 19:12, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Mongolia and Russia

Where is a proof that the White Wall reached Mongolia, Xinjiang and Russia? It seems to be Chinese propaganda. These maps must be deleted. File:Map of the Great Wall of China.jpg, File:GreatWallChina3.png — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.160.39.12 (talk) 09:12, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Length

In the article introduction, the two articles cited regarding modern estimates of the great wall refer to a preliminary (8,850 km) and final (21,196 km) finding by the same institution. The project to map the wall was conducted by China's State Administration of Cultural Heritage along with the State Bureau of Surveying and Mapping. These two sources should not be treated as conflicting independent estimates but instead the latter, larger source should replace the earlier, smaller source. Beezorphlegmon (talk) 22:02, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 May 2016

the great wall of china is very small. smaller than an average bathroom — Preceding unsigned comment added by Huj678i (talk • contribs) 17:15, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

Request edit on 12 August 2016

Please add (these): [1][2][3]

— 2601:183:4000:D57A:D58E:697E:173A:9907 (talk) 20:26, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 20:43, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

Korean wiki link missing

When I try to go to the Korean wiki page (ko:만리장성) via the English wiki page, the link cannot be found, even though it is in the interlanguage link list. However, traversing from the Korean wiki to English wiki works perfectly. -- 142.150.48.212 (talk) 21:03, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

• Never mind. It is just below the Hakka link (客家語/Hak-kâ-ngî (hak:Van-lî Tshòng-sàng)). - 142.150.48.212 (talk) 21:06, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 November 2016

59.167.95.135 (talk) 00:53, 1 November 2016 (UTC) bdbbgazs';AS:EFasf

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. —MRD2014 (Happy Halloween!) 01:39, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 December 2016

{{subst:trim|

216.56.22.187 (talk) 15:32, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

ω Awaiting--Probably you want to use the trim template but specify the exact location to use it.Aru@baska^{❯❯❯ Vanguard} 16:05, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 December 2016

In 'Visibility from space'/'From the Moon section', William Stukeley was referring to Hadrian's Wall.

Question: Isn't the meaning of the Chinese 長城 'long castle'? 202.246.252.97 (talk) 06:52, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

 Not done-Your question is (prob.) not related to any change.For a general query don't put up an edit request.If it's not a query, but a change request, put it in the form---Change XXX to YYY per ZZZ (reliable sources) and reopen the request.Light^{❯❯❯ Saber} 07:08, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 February 2017

Superericxiao (talk) 21:39, 10 February 2017 (UTC)I fint an external link which relates to this topic. 

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. -- Dane ^talk 20:07, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

Course of the Great Wall: Addition request

The Course of the Great Wall, besides marking the imperial frontier, marked the climatic frontier of the rainy temperate zone and the basic agricultural (cereal) frontier.

References

Nice formatting (although kindly sign your posts) but that's apparently just a common misconception Di Cosmo goes out of her way to debunk. — LlywelynII 12:30, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

Sources for future article expansion

• Di Cosmo, Nicola (2002), Ancient China and Its Enemies: The Rise of Nomadic Power in East Asian History, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.

goes into much more detail about the early walls, as does

• Jing, Ai (2015), Wang Gangliu; et al. (eds.), A History of the Great Wall of China, New York: SCPG Publishing {{citation}}: Unknown parameter |authormask= ignored (|author-mask= suggested) (help).

possibly to the extent of being able to create full articles about them.

Di Cosmo also has useful commentary and analysis about the common misconception that the walls were intended as defensive works when they actually were used (esp. the earliest form during the Warring States Period) to help consolidate aggressive Chinese expansion into formerly Beidi- and nomad-held lands. — LlywelynII 12:30, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 February 2018

it has a bigg bottom — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.82.60.56 (talk) 22:11, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

6,259-km (3,889-mi) sections

The following in the lead is confusing: "This is made up of 6,259 km (3,889 mi) sections of actual wall". Should "sections" be singular or is there more than one 6259-km section? Nick Levinson (talk) 21:52, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Wall climbed by hand

The wall was free-climbed on the side facing Russia. Reportedly, the Chinese guards or officials present were amazed. The climber was Yvon Chouinard. This was reported in The New Yorker (ca. 1970s), possibly available online in the magazine's archive. Since the Wall is supposed to keep invaders out, that it was climbed with little or no equipment has weight. I don't know if there are reports of other people doing it. Nick Levinson (talk) 21:56, 3 March 2018 (UTC) (Corrected: 22:00, 3 March 2018 (UTC))

Li is a unit of measurement unrelated to Mile

Nothing more needs to be said here but that translation is idiotic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.192.112.49 (talk) 00:10, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

"Mile" is a common translation — see Li (unit) — but I agree it's problematic.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:03, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

ancient china's first ruler was Qin Shi Huang 259 BC-210 BC — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.75.124.235 (talk) 22:57, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request, 24 May 2018

Please delete Category:Reportedly haunted locations in China, which is unsourced. 2600:8800:1880:91E:5604:A6FF:FE38:4B26 (talk) 03:22, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: Categories are by their nature unsourced. If you are asking that the entire category be deleted you need to see WP:CFD. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 13:40, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Incorrect; per WP:CATV, categories must be verifiable per WP:V and there is no text in the article describing any alleged "haunting" of the wall. 2600:8800:1880:91E:5604:A6FF:FE38:4B26 (talk) 17:03, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

 Done L293D (☎ • ✎) 12:35, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

time

the great wall of China was finished in 1644 c.a and it is unknown when it was started — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.68.159.128 (talk) 18:12, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

Where do these people come from - is school out in California?50.111.7.77 (talk) 04:46, 24 September 2018 (UTC)

More info!

1. Article says; Especially famous is the wall built in 220–206 BC by Qin Shi Huang. Why is this especially famous? (Article doesn’t say.)

2. When was stone first used in The Wall? And Brick?

3. How much of the Qin wall survives?

4. When is the first recorded use of Long Wall (or similar); the article cites Sima Qian, but doesn’t say it’s the first use?

MBG02 (talk) 13:39, 25 September 2018 (UTC)

No.4 is answered at History of the Great Wall of China. Was c800BC in a poem. MBG02 (talk) 15:13, 25 September 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 November 2018

Change BC to BCE Marlaslunchbox151 (talk) 19:29, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. Per MOS:ERA, either BC or BCE is acceptable as long as it's used consistently within the article. It should not be changed without a specific reason, and a prior discussion on the talk page. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 19:56, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 April 2019

2600:1700:8E00:E360:107:F35F:449D:DCE7 (talk) 16:53, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

the wall cannot be seen from space

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Zingarese talk · contribs 18:46, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

Fact issues

There are several issues with the definition of the Great Wall:

"Great Wall of China refers to a series of fortifications..."

• There is no single wall Each dynasty have their own system of wall and fortifications that run along their border.

"Several walls were being built from as early as the 7th century BC, these were later joined together and made bigger by Qin Shi Huang (220–206 BC)"

• Not all Warring States walls are joined together by the Qin. The Qin built their own wall from Lintao to the border of Shanxi. The Zhao wall stretched from the Hetao to today's Zhangjiakou, the Yan state walls. However, whether Qin Shi Huang had actually joined existing Qin walls to these walls (unlikely as the Qin wall and Zhao wall never met) or just simply maintained the existing sections (a huge feat considering he ruled for 10 years as emperor)...Or that just being said metaphorically since Qin Shi Huang in fact unified China, is still open to debate. We need better sources before putting this as a historical fact.

"Later on, many successive dynasties have repaired, maintained, and newly built multiple stretches of border walls."

• Not all dynasties built their wall along a previously existing wall. As I said before, there is no single wall. Han, Jin and Liao dynasties built their walls completely new. Only some parts of Ming dynasty were built along the Han and Sui walls. Sgnpkd (talk) 07:55, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

The Great Wall of China: Documentary

1, 2, 3, 4. Geng Zhou, a soldier of Qi Jiguang, is a fictional character, but he is the second main protagonist, then he could have an own page. It could also be created the documentary page: Behind the Great Wall. Please, someone can help me, because I'm too busy? Thank you very much. --95.252.62.246 11:40, 28 June 2019 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.252.62.246 (talk)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Map of the Great Wall of China.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 02:21, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 April 2020

I would like to request to add a better/more trusting link source, please and thank you. Chicken nugget13 (talk) 19:44, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 19:54, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

"Visibility from space"

Doesn't this imply you CAN see it from space? I'd feel a lot more comfortable with: "Visibility from space misconception" or "Visibility from space myth"

Thoughts? byelf2007 (talk)

To be perfectly honest, It would be better viewing it from space as it provides a better vie. Peter Trunks (talk) 15:39, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

According to experts in the Modern Marvels episode The Great Wall of China broadcast on 22 June 1997 (and repeatedly aired since then), the Great Wall is not visible from space.

I think this piece of information should be included in the Visibility from space section.

Thoughts, comments. 2600:8800:784:8F00:C23F:D5FF:FEC4:D51D (talk) 09:24, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

About building reasons of wall

Some sources say that some parts of wall is actually made because of civilian activities (leaving country illegally or coming to country illegally etc.)

An Israeli archeolog Gideon Shelach-Lavi said that "Northern parts of the wall is probably made for non-defensive reasons. Because the Northern parts are closer to the paths and routes, not the main border itself. These parts of the wall are also zigzagging throughout the valleys. Not like the others that goes diagonally through mountains or something like that."

He also said "Before we search this we all thought that it was fully made because of invasions of Mongols. But the part that in Mongolia is mostly short (in height) and closer to the paths. We thought that it's probably made because they wanted to see what's new about farm animals and people around those places or maybe they wanted to stop or displace some of those."

"People around there in 'cold times' of Medieval (Middle) Ages probably went to the warmer Southern plains that the time's Chinese emperor maybe didn't like it so they built the wall that way."

~~TheEnd~~ Erdi Bilgi (talk) 21:06, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

I wasn't able to find the source but I'm sure that I've read this. Someone will find probably. Erdi Bilgi (talk) 21:07, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

it is nice to meet you — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.236.41.48 (talk) 18:29, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

New sections needed on the wall's effectiveness and the conditions of its construction

In view of all the talks of building a wall on US's southern border, We badly need a section on the effectiveness of the wall. If Wall was effective, was it because of the physical structure of the wall, or was it because of the soldiers that were manning it 24/7 ? If the Wall was not effective, why successive Chinese dynasties poured time and treasure into building it ?

Also, another section is needed on conditions under which it was built. What was the circumstances of the workers that built it ? Were they slave workers, prisoners of war, or paid workers ? Is it true that there was an edict that workers who are subpar have to be put inside the wall alive ? Was physical abuse going on to compel the workers to work under abysmal conditions ?

Ardeshir Papagan (talk) 13:10, 26 December 2020 (UTC) Ardeshir