Talk:Great Wall of China/Archive 1

Headline text

thanks for having this topic Michelle Santuyo Alvarado of Zamboanga Philippines

Emperor Tony X. Liu

I am not sure, but the Wall is kind of old, is it not? How come they had color photos and flashlights back then? I mean the photo of the emperor who build this. Someones trying to fool us, or? (Chris)

I think you are very confused--Emperor Tony X. Liu 11:38, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Cannons, firelances, grenades, mines, and rockets

A recent series on the history channel stated that the Chinese had more than 3,000 bronze cannons mounted on -intranetusa 09:55, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism

Someone wrote this:

"

Watchtower interior

jessssssssssssss is a defensive wall on the northern border was built and maintained by several dynasties at different times in Chinese history."

Corrected.

-intranetusa 09:55, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Archers?

I heard in my class on China that the archers on the great wall were pointed inwards, as if they were controlling the Chinese people more than keeping barbarians out. I find this hard to believe...is it true?

Probably not. -- Миборовский 01:12, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Map Showing Location

Afer reading the whole article, I now see that the exact location of the wall remains hard to grasp by someone I sent to Wikipedia to research it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:China-Beijing.png

There is a good link to another photo showing the exact location of Beijing. Perhaps a similar map of China with a line representing the wall would be nice to add.

Ruling Dynasty Links

there should be link to some Chinese ruling dynasties during which it was being built.

Added. --Menchi 08:54 18 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Wall Length

There's a bit of a length problem, in that sources vary wildly from 3,000 to 6,000. See fr:Discuter:Grande Muraille de Chine -- Tarquin 08:48 18 Jun 2003 (UTC)

It's like counting WP articles, you can be very strict or not. Some walls are only bare remains now and cannot be walked now without structural damage, or danger to the walker. These are probably excluded in the strict count. Although I'm not exactly sure how the number could double... --Menchi 08:53 18 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Well, the wall isn't completely connected, you know. There are actually unconnected parts that are long.Conquest1970 00:03, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Therefore the article deserves a whole subsection on it's length with as much as information as possible described to the best of possibilities.

I saw a news item the other day to the effect that the Chinese government has started a project to measure and map the wall – they don’t actually know for certain how long it is, or where all the bits are. -Ahruman 12:02, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Article is misleading about wall length

This article very is misleading about the length of the Wall (and I've been mislead by it). It claims that it is 6,352 km long. This exact number suggests that the Wall is an exactly measurable connected structure. Someone inserted "this is NOT a mistake" in the article source, but no sources are cited. Where does this number come from? How much of the wall is standing today? How long has it been when most of it has been standing?

Encarta says:

"The Great Wall is not a single, continuous structure. Rather, it consists of a network of walls and towers that leaves the frontier open in places. Estimates of the total length of the monument vary, depending on which sections are included and how they are measured. The Great Wall is about 2,400 km (about 1,500 mi) long, according to conservative estimates. Other estimates cite a length of 6,400 km (4,000 mi), or even longer." [1]

Britannica says:

" ... running (with all its branches) about 4,500 miles (7,300 km) east to west from Shanhai Pass near the Bo Hai (Gulf of Chihli) to Jiayu Pass (in modern Gansu province). Without its branches and other secondary sections, the wall extends for some 4,160 miles (6,700 km) ..." [2]

So this number of 6,352 km is certainly a mistake, because the article does not say what is exactly 6,352 km long.

BarroColorado 13:22, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, after checking older version of the page I noticed that the note ("this is NOT a mistake") in the source refers to something else. -- BarroColorado

Here's a better map: [3]. This might prove useful. A straight line from the starting point to the end point it's roughly 2000-2500 km. Of course the wall may be much longer when all the little curves are taken into account (it's quite zig-zaggy on the photos). Perhaps this is the one of the reasons why it is so difficult to estimate the full length? -- BarroColorado 16:16, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Here's a news article that puts the length at 6,300 km.[4] NYCDA 17:23, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Pass

I can upload a pic of the wall at Shanhaiguan that I took last month if anyone's interested? It was interesting to stumble upon the supposedly historic 'first gate under heaven' under (re)construction. I was able to climb up the scaffolding for a great view though, and the pic's passable, though not brilliant. I'll see if I can't put it up shortly and add a link here. --Pratyeka 05:13, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Add it if you like! --Pratyeka 05:21, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Added. So is a pass basically a fortress? About how many gates does a pass have? --Menchi 05:37, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Come to think of it I didn't get the best look at the overall structure (I was more interested in my fiancee at the time ;) .. but if you imagine walls like '田', then the part I photographed was the bottom side of the bottom-left section. once you enter (upward), you turn right, and pass through another gate. After that, you keep going forward, and pass through another gate. Actually the 'tian' analogy isn't too good at all. Here's some ASCII art of the part I saw. (excuse the speed/dodginess)

||||.--------
||||I   I   X
||||I   X   I
||||--X-----'--------------.
|||| OX                  O I
||||--X-. -------------.v. I
||||    I >>>          IvI I 
||||    `----           vI I
||||                     I I
||||        key: double-thickness wall: the main wall.  X = gate.  I/- = wall.
||||             > or v : ramp down the wall.  O = watchtower

Whare are the ||||? And what is the orientation of the ASCII art? Are we looking at bird's-eye-view? --Menchi 22:35, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Visible from "low earth orbit?'

With regards to the Wall's visibility from space, wasn't this completely disproved by Yang Liwei, the taikonaut? From what I recall, he was asked if he could see the wall while he was orbiting and he simply replied "No." --Darac Marjal 13:14, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Indeed. As I read the news story, it seemed to be saying that the Great Wall cannot be seen from space at all. Liwei was presumably in "low earth orbit," since I don't think humans have been sent farther than that recently. But just how high was he?

However, the argument that it is "only a few meters wide" isn't necessarily all that convincing since it is well known that the eye can detect extended linear features that would, on the basis of their thickness, be expected to be well below the eye's resolution. One minute = .0003 radians, so one meter subtends one minute at 1/.0003 meters = 3.4 kilometers. If "a few meters" means five meters, a five-meter object should just be visible at 17 kilometers. "Low earth orbit" seems to mean 100-500 miles = 160 to 1400 kilometers. I am almost certain that the eye can detect linear features that are ten times smaller than the nominal visual acuity. This would seem to put the Great Wall just within the range of visibility for the lowest of low earth orbits.

Undoubtedly the visibility would depend on lighting conditions. Many features on the Moon are invisible even with a small telescope much of the time, but leap out at you even in binoculars when they are near the terminator. Are there portions of the Great Wall that are oriented roughly north/south? Are any of them on relatively flat terrain? In the late afternoon or early morning it could be casting a contrasty shadow, and the width of that shadow could be several times the height of the Great Wall. Dpbsmith 12:39, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I've done a bit of Googling on visibility of the Great Wall from space and have summarized the results in the article. Dpbsmith 20:57, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Mulad improved this section. But he added the statement about visibility from the moon not only becoming an urban legend but "sometimes entering textbooks." I won't remove it, but his summary remark on the edit, "heck, I think I saw this in a textbook in the U.S." strikes me as not meeting the very highest and best standard of scholarship....  :-)

Brooding more about this, the original Halliburton statement was to the effect that (unnamed) "astronomers" said it was visible from the moon. This suggests that possibly the original intended meaning was not that it could be seen from the moon with the naked eye, but that it ought to be visible from the moon using the best 1938 telescopes. This is worth fussing over, but it seems to me quite possible, judging from what spy satellites can do, that the wall could be seen from the moon with the eye looking through a big, traditional optical telescope. However, if so, obviously it would not be the only manmade structure that would be visible. Since the point of the original remark was to claim superlative magnitude the structure—to imply that it was the greatest or biggest or most impressive bit of human civil engineering in history, eclipsing the Pyramids, the creation of the Dutch polders, the U. S. Interstate highway system, etc. And it doesn't seem that it is. Dpbsmith 15:31, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

There is significantly more pollution in China than there was 10 years ago, or 30 (in the case of Apollo). The fact that the Great Wall cannot be seen from space now but could be seen 15 years ago shouldn't surprise anyone.

I removed this conclusion from the front page. See attached link for more information. "

Ultimately, the idea that the Great Wall is somehow more visible than any other man-made object of the same size is a myth." [5]

I hate removing paragraphs, but this section really didn't seem to quite fit:

"But Science has proved all enthusiasts wrong.

An average eye can see a 1mm object from 3m.This means that at even on a high plane's height (15km) you will still only be able to see a 5m object with the naked eye. Because the Great Wall is Grey on a greyish mountain background, this means that you can't even see it on a plane voyage. A low orbiting space shuttle is at 300km, so there is no way that you can see the Great wall up there, even if it was 20m wide. In fact, it's a bit like trying to see a fishing line from the top of an office building. No matter how long it is you just can't see it because it's so thin. But just maybe...those entusiasts could have the best vision in the known world..."

In addition to the not-quite-best choice of words, this wasn't sourced and I wasn't able to find a verifiable source online on this claim. I do not know if it's true, but I don't think it should be included without a source. Either way, feel free to rewrite it if verified. --JoeTrumpet 18:23, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I reckon that the highest height an average experienced eye could see the great wall from is 150km. The human eye can see an object that is 1/60 of a degree in good conditions, and possibly 1/180 of a degree under the best POSSIBLE circumstance. Even this equates to seeing a 1m object at a distance of 9km or a 10m Great Wall width object at 90km. I will admit, though that with experience, this could be extended to, say 150km. Add this to a person with good vision, and they could see the great wall from a space shuttle in low earth orbit. --Tosayit 11:22, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Visible from Google Earth?

A search for "Great Wall of China" on Google Earth produces a location ok, but nothing is discernable. There are still quite a few errors in the GE gazeteer, so that doesn't mean anything. The resolution is also poor, but that might be a fair record of what can be seen from low earth orbit. So this article could do with some latitude and longitude references, please - of the ends, of the thickest part, whatever. Does anybody have these?

Hi. I Google Earthed the coordinates mentioned in the article (33 55 N, 108 31 E), and by going to an oblique angle, it appears the purported wall is at the bottom of a valley and is therefore more likely a river. The European Space Agency made a similar mistake:(http://www.space.com/imageoftheday/image_of_day_040512.html) (Anonymous user, 4/15/2006)

Of course you can see Great wall in google satellite map, as long as you konw where to look. For example, this is the great wall near Badaling[6]. You can see the wall and the watchtowers very clearly. The square complex in the lower left corner of this image is the Juyongguan Pass. Sinolonghai 17:50, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

The Great Wall is just as visible as a narrow road is. All depends on the altitude and the resolution of the image. Try the western end, south-west of Jiayuguan at 39 44' 35"N 98 12'E where you will see a protective coffer dam at the base of a 300' high cliff, atop which is a watchtower. NickyMcLean 02:57, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Non-commercial image

File:WildGreatWallShuiguanBeijing.jpg

Non-commercial use only, not compatible with GFDL and decreed unacceptable by Jimbo.

There were very many images on this page, so I looked into them, too see if something was reduntant or acceptable to remove. I found an image tagged with "noncommercial". Since it has recently been decided that it is not acceptable to use these, I think it's just good to take it out. Comments? [[User:Sverdrup|❝Sverdrup❞]] 01:54, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Please refer me to this decision - I have uploaded several images under this cc-nc, under two general cases.

In one case, some images from china were provided to me by fellow tourist - we exchanged these with each other, I could probably track him down and get a verbal release.

In the other case, the images were of performers Beijing Opera, who charge admission for performances, or models in period dress Peterhof, who expect recompense for their posing in costume. I did not feel that it would be appropriate to release these for commercial use without further release. All of my personal pictures and derivative works of public domain images are cc-sa and others donated for Sundial Bridge by a third party (a commercial artist) are cc-by-sa. Please answer here, I will watch. -- Leonard G. 23:49, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Redirect

Great Wall should redirect here, with a disambig link at the top of this page. Seriously, who's ever heard of the "Great Wall of Galaxies"? --Simetrical 19:56, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Directing Great Wall here is a mistake, IMO. As Wiki gets more international, the plethora of products and companies with the "Great Wall" name that exist in China will need to go somewhere. --Shannonr 06:09, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

And once the volume of people who want to visit those pages—when they exist, which it bears pointing out they don't—gets to be anywhere near the volume of people who want to visit this one, Great Wall can be converted back to a disambiguation page. This is standard Wikipedia practice for an instance where one meaning of a word is vastly more sought-after than another. Otherwise, we should create a disambiguation page at Sparta for all the places like Sparta, Georgia (population 1,522), don't you think? —Simetrical (talk) 01:13, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Deaths

Is there an agreed upon estimate for the number of deaths which occured during the construction of the wall? --Tothebarricades.tk 01:40, May 13, 2005 (UTC) this link says estimates exceede 1 million, though it doesn't look wholly reliable. It doesn't seem anyone knows for sure the cost in terms of human lives. Citizen Premier 07:46, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

And is there a reason it is mentioned that the people were not buried in the wall? Such a claim seems silly to make unless there are legends concerning it.

Map?

Can anyone add a map that show where the wall exactly is? Kowloonese 23:44, May 25, 2005 (UTC)

Or even better: a Google Earth Path along the wall.

I'm going to add my vote for a map showing the position of the great Wall.--Tiberius47 00:51, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Try the Google Earth Community. There is a project to locate every watchtower along the wall, including along its various branches. NickyMcLean 03:02, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Strategic Value of the Great Wall?

How well did the Great Wall serve the various Dynasties?

I have done some extensive readings on the history of the Mongol empire, and in many accounts, it was stated that Genghis Khan used some kind of particular cunning to break through the fortifications.

However, it appears that during the Genghite invasion, the wall really was not very continuous and Genghis simply had to go around it. It were the descendants of the Genghites (I think they were the 'founders' of the Ming dynasty) who finally made the wall into what it is today. Had it been there at the time of the Genghites, it may have changed the course of history a little.

--Dietwald 18:08, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

I ascribe to the theory put forward by Franz Kafka in his story about the Great Wall [[7]]. He suggests it was a white elephant set up to keep the people occupied, to give them roles to play in society they might not have had otherwise. Politically, it must have been a powerful symbol too, suggesting just by its presence that the outside world was dangerous - the same xenophobia our current politicians use -- after all, as Dietwald points out, it was not much of a physical barrier to the Mongols - so must have had more symbolic than actual value. Is this worth adding to the article? Adambrowne666 04:00, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

The Mongols did not break through the Great Wall. The Great Wall then was useless because China was divided among the Song Dynasty and the Jinn Dynasty (The Jinn Dynasty later destroyed by an alliance of the Mongols and Song, and the Song defeated thereafter). The Great Wall CAN be effectively used, however. An example is the Ming dynasty defence against the Manchus (which would have held on for much longer if Wu Sangui did not defect). Moreover, claiming the founders of the Ming Dynasty are descendants of the Genghites is simply ridiculous. Herunar 06:19, 18 June 2006 (UTC) Whuifdjksnfksdlfj Don't quite understand what you're saying Herunar - are you saying the Wall was useless at first, then became useful later? Adambrowne666 00:11, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

IMO, the white elephant theory displays a considerable degree of naivite, or perhaps just unfamiliarity with Chinese history (and plus, I don't think Kafka is meant to be understood literally...). The Great Wall did serve strategic purposes at various points in Chinese history. For example, Nurhachi, founder of the Qing Dynasty, was killed while trying to attack the wall at the end of the Ming Dynasty.

However, the strongest wall is useless if you don't have the political or economic system to back it up. Thus, for example, at the end of the Ming Dynasty, the Qing armies crossed the wall because the gates were opened for them by Wu Sangui; for a different example, the Song Dynasty was so weak that it never got to use the wall.

When the Mongols invaded, they were facing three separate states in China: the Jin in the north east, the Xixia in the north west, and the Song in the south. The Great Wall did not trouble them at all because (1) it had not been properly maintained at that point for several hundred years, and (2) having taken Xixia, they just came in from the West and avoided the wall.

A further point is that, effective as the wall may be, there were more effective ways of pacifying one's borders. In the Qing Dynasty, the government realised that promoting harmonious relationships with border peoples was more effective than building a big wall. Likewise, during the Tang Dynasty, the empire was powerful enough and cosmopolitan enough that a wall was not needed. --Sumple (Talk) 22:04, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Source for Qin Shi Huang moon legend?

A very interesting paragraph was recently added, beginning:

"Legend says the First Emperor (Qin Shi Huang) once dreamed his soul traveled to the moon...."

That might explain how the legend of its being visible from the moon arose.

But I'd be happier if a source for this legend were cited. Does anybody know one? I've also left a note on User_talk:66.17.105.226 asking about this. Dpbsmith (talk) 22:14, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, I hate to sound ungrateful, but I'm not too happy about the source, http://www.indexa.fr/ConfigNav/test.pdf, which 66.17.105.226 has provided. It seems to be an ad for a CD-ROM "edutainment" title, so if someone has that title it might be possible to dig further. The problem for me is that the article opens:

What’s the only man-made artifact visible from the moon? The Great Wall of China. You probably knew that, but we bet you didn’t know that this fact is prefigured in a Chinese legend dating back to the third century B.C.

Since the Great Wall of China is not even close to being visible from the moon, this doesn't give me much confidence in the accuracy of the source.

I would suggest removing the text. Even most native Chinese don't know such a "legend". --137.189.4.1 15:03, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Legend [8] says the First Emperor (Qin Shi Huang) once dreamed his soul traveled to the moon. From here, he was dismayed to see his entire kingdom amounted to nothing more than a tiny dot. The story says at that moment he decided to build a mighty wall stretching along his kingdom's northern border and beyond, in hopes of expanding his kingdom (and its wall) to the point of visibility even from the moon.

Okay I moved the text here until a more trustable source is given. --Lorenzarius 12:13, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

why was the wall built if the people were against it and it didnt serve its purpose

Time of Building

The wall started being built around 200BC, while the Ming Dynasty version in this article is from the 14th century to the 16th. Conquest1980 01:51, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

what categories?

I'm unsure of the rules of categories, but I figured that I could link from Hadrian's Wall to this via Category:Fortification but instead found that the on one in common is Category:Walls, not that I know the difference between the two. Mulp 17:49, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the foreign language in this article

I think this article might be better improved with information from the Chinese language Wikipedia, not Arabic language Wikipedia.

Need sources for this assertion

This needs to be sources.

The last great wall of the Ming really was a military fortification of some strength. However, military historians are generally dismissive of the net value of this great wall. It was astonishingly expensive to build, maintain and garrison. The money the Ming spent on the wall could have been spent on other military capabilities such as European style artillery or muskets. The fact remains that the great wall was of no help at all in preventing the Ming Dynasty's fall.

Rabbits

The Great Wall of China was originally built to keep rabbits out of China. It was considered that there was too many rabbits in China.

Uh? Is this vandalism or were the Chinese really worried about the rabbit population? And I might add: was it out of whim or need? --A Sunshade Lust 14:38, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvlWQyvEI38

This isn't vandalisim per se, it's a bunch of Australians making a reference to an Advertising campaign ran in Australia by Telstra [9]. These users are going to keep editing it until there's a reference in the article to it which will just keep causing the page to be revised and changed by the Anti Vandal bot and other senior users. I have placed a new section within the article titled advertising references which make appropriate reference to the issue and should be enough to keep users who wish to muck with the page at bey for the moment at least. --Thewinchester 13:09, 12 August 2006 (UTC -0800)

It is important to ensure all information about the wall is included in the article so the unmistakably massive influence of rabbit's in the creation of world's first instance of a Rabbit Proof Fence should remain. They actually measured the length in rabbit hops instead of kilometres or miles (4,567,964,001 hops).

Ha ha, boy, you're a really clever person, you know that? Ha ha ha. Thanks for sharing. - DavidWBrooks

Thankyou David, you are too kind. Also, remember that it was the emperor Nasi Goreng who commisioned the creation of the Great Rabbit Proof Fence of China. TaTaForNow! Don't forget History is what we make it. It normally has very little to do with the truth, especially when its the history of a war. To the victors goes the truth.

Ah! It finally all make sense now! Thanks guys!

It could belong in a section of Popular Cultural references?

Too many links to photos

I would like to kill all the external links to collections of Great Wall photos. They are proliferating like the rabbits that the wall kept out of China - no, wait, that was a vandalism - and are incredibly easy to find via Google, anyway; they add nothing to this article. - DavidWBrooks 16:26, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

There are definitely too many photos. Wikipedia is not a place for site-seeing. Wang ty87916 16:30, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

It's part of a Bigpond (www.bigpond.com) ad. A kid asks his dad "dad, why was the great wall of China built?" ... answer: "to keep the rabbits out..." Quite funny.58.162.18.184 06:29, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

verification

i just read on BBC that they found more peices to the wall, making it around 7,200km long/ THE LINK IS http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1184306.stm CAN SOMEONE VERIFY THIS? i am no good with things like this(verification)

by the way, can someone tell me exactly how many people visit the great wall yearly? the info would be much appreciated Oldmansnake99 18:51, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I doubt we can get a number that means anything, if the length and geographic distribution of the components are not completely known. Fehrgo 16:12, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Opened to Tourism... when?

There should be some little trivia bit on when this was opened to the public for tourisim.

WiiWillieWiki 14:17, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

"largest"

>The Great Wall is the world's largest man-made structure

I'm not debating this, but I suggest that this might want to be clarified in the article intro? Largest meaning? longest? largest volume of space? largest area of land covered? spanning the largest range of land? etc.

Chinese translation

I thought "Great Wall" translates to 长城, and 万里长城 is simply an idiom/tourism slogan? I have never seen it referred to as "万里长城" in any pre-modern text, and I'm pretty sure it's referred to as 长城 in official documents (e.g. by UNESCO or by the PRC government). --Sumple (Talk) 05:17, 27 November 2006 (UTC) some people need this info so stop putting stupid comments.!

What's with the repeated "hi"

Yeah, I went to look up the article on the "Great Wall Of China" However, all I found when I clicked was the word "hi" repeated over and over again. I belive this counts as vandalism since, last time I checked, saying "hi" over again was a form of SPAM (No, not the meat, the e-mail/internet kind of SPAM) and not information about an important historical wall.24.111.137.236 18:05, 5 January 2007 (UTC)anonymous

Adult supervision

It's scarcely worth editing here unless this gets semi-protection. Text has eroded just in the last month, and scribbles are embedded in it. Would any administrator care to take this on? It's off my Watchlist as of now.--Wetman 23:41, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Condition

"After one of the many runs for charity along the Great Wall, H.J.P Arnold questioned several runners about the status of the wall. A typical response was "The wall was clearly discernible and only moderately eroded along 22% of the run. The Wall was usually discernible but frequently broken/eroded 41% of the run, and scarcely discernible and almost totally eroded 37% of the run."

I intend to remove this paragraph as it strikes me as very suspect for the following reasons: 1. Charity runs / walks concentrate on areas where the wall is still visible, so their observations are of little relevance 2. Such events only cover a few miles - out of many thousands of mile of wall and invariably concentrate on the area north of Beijing 3. Who determines what a typical comment is? 4. The percentages in the alleged quote are absurdly precise and the language very formal. I conclude it cannot have come from one speaker as the entry suggests. It has probably been invented. 5. Who is HJP Arnold and why he is the definitive source on the Great Wall?

Overall then, I do not think the paragraph is helpful.

--John Price 17:50, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Outer Space Rambling?

Is it me or is this kind of too much information?

The Great Wall is a maximum 30 feet wide and is about the same color as the soil surrounding it. Based on the optics of resolving power (distance versus the width of the iris: a few millimetres for the human eye, metres for large telescopes) an object of reasonable contrast to its surroundings some four thousand miles in diameter (such as the Australian land mass) would be visible to the unaided eye from the moon. But the Great Wall is of course not a disc but more like a thread, and a thread a foot long would not be visible from a hundred yards away, even though a human head is. Not surprisingly, no lunar astronaut has ever claimed he could see the Great Wall from the moon.

A different question is whether it is visible from near-Earth orbit i.e at an altitude of less than 500 km - 0.1% of the distance of the moon. The consensus here is that it is barely visible, and only under nearly perfect conditions; it is no more conspicuous than many other man-made objects.

I mean... do we really need that first paragraph at all? It seems more relevant to an optics article really, if at all anything.

It is a bit detailed, but I think it is worth making the point that the visibility from the moon idea is demonstrably absurd.

--217.43.17.58 21:30, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree that this is unncessary and rambling, and have hacked this para down Cheakamus (talk) 00:23, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

long city wall?

hello,i have a question about the opening statement in the artical: "The Great Wall of China (Traditional Chinese: 長城; Simplified Chinese: 长城; pinyin: Chángchéng; literally "long city wall")" Doesn't chang cheng mean long city, where is wall coming from? Sir LoseALot 19:01, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

It's a bit more complicated. Chang is long, but cheng has a wider range of meaning. Originally it did sort of mean wall or fortification, but as cities were walled, it gradually came to mean city. Right now, I'm looking at an Oxford Chinese-English dictionary that lists the primary meaning of cheng as "city" and the second as "city wall; wall: chang ~ the Great Wall." I agree that "long city wall" is off, but it's tricky trying to decide what the "literal meaning" of any given character by itself is. It's like trying to decide on the "literal meaning" of the first syllable of a word in English. (For example, chang2cheng2 has its own entry as a word under the character "chang2").

For now, I'm going to change wall to just "wall" as that would seem to make more sense given the entymology of the word, though I'm not entirely comfortable with that, either. Theotherkg 08:33, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

See Chinese city wall for an explanation of cheng and other terms for walls in Chinese. --Sumple (Talk) 08:40, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Cool, thanks. Just to make sure -- changing "long city wall" (what is was before) to "long wall" is acceptable? Theotherkg 08:57, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Yep, change looks good to me! --Sumple (Talk) 08:58, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Please fix

one of the existing megastructure -> megastructures —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.67.217.254 (talk) 17:21, 18 March 2007 (UTC).

Characteristics -- materials

Several years back, while visiting the wall, I read some local literature that spoke of the mortar used between blocks during construction (not sure exactly what period of construction). It mentioned a glutinous rice and at times egg white combination. When I walked the wall, and got off the re-constructed visitor section (I went beyond the barrier), I picked up a piece of white morter that was clearly (to me) "petrified rice mush". I found this very interesting. A few years ago I added a note on this Wiki in the Characteristics section, noting the use of glutinous rice and eggwhite as mortar for parts of the construction. It is no longer in the article. I would propose adding this info back in, but I'm not an expert on either the Wall or on Wikis, so I write this note in hopes that others find this piece of information interesting, accurate, and worth re-including in the Great Wall article -- especially if someone could verify this info as factual. 144.15.18.210 15:21, 12 April 2007 (UTC)ImRoscoe

Mao Ze Dong quote translation

I saw that the english translastion for Mao's quote used the word "climb". The chinese has nothing mentioning or hinting at climbing, or even walking along. It is simply translated as "going to". So the quote should be translated literally as: "not been to the great wall, (means that one is) not a good chinese." or transliterated as "If one hasn't been to the great wall one is not a good Chinese." I don't like the use of "one" in this sentence (or "you" for that matter), but english demands a subject.

Jon the d 16:34, 23 April 2007 (UTC)Jon_the_D

Location confused

Article contains "Under the military command of Yuan Chonghuan, the Ming army held off the Manchus at the heavily fortified Shanhai Pass, thus preventing the Manchus from entering the Liaodong Peninsula and the Chinese heartland"- in fact Shanhai Pass is located to the southwest of the Liaodong peninsula- the Manchus controlled the Liaodong penisula before passing through Shanhai Pass. Put another way, the Great Wall ends at the Hebei coast at Shanhai Pass and did not cut off the Liaodong Peninsula from the Manchu homeland. Please delete the words the Liaodong Peninsula and. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 218.168.214.216 (talk) 08:59, 6 May 2007 (UTC).

New Seven Wonders of the World

I've been adding links for the candidates of the New Seven Wonders of the World contest. The Great Wall of China is one of them. Would it be possible to add such a link?

• Vote for the Great Wall of China as one of the New Seven Wonders of the World

(like this... :-) ) Cryptonym 17:16, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Even the informational pdf linked to that page does not have as much info as the Wikipedia article. In that sense, it doesn't contribute anything in terms of information to the article - making it a bad link under WP:EL. The contest seems non-notable and adding the links to all of the relevant articles in Wikipedia seems more like a promotion of the contest than supplementing encyclopedic content. I'd recommend against not linking and removing the links placed in other articles. Nposs 18:56, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Please clarify "the most famous"

"...the most famous being the one built between 220 BC and 200 BC by the first Emperor of China, Qin Shi Huang. That wall was much further north than the current wall, built during the Ming Dynasty, and little of it remains." Surely, the current standing wall is the "most famous"...? Afabbro 02:11, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Please fix typo

In the section on "Visibility", at the end of the paragraph beginning with "Leroy Chiao, a Chinese-American astronaut,", there is some incorrectly formatted code. I don't know enough to fix it.

Overall this is not a bad article and I can see some of the care that's gone into it. Marzolian 12:39, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Note to all editors from Australia

DO NOT add the lame information about rabbits being kept out just because Telstra used it in an advertisement. Any of such information will be deleted. Also, please DO NOT start a "Pop culture" section and add info about the rabbits either. It's trivia-like and does not belong in the article. Oidia (talk) 11:21, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Who was this wall protecting from?

The article mentions at several places that the Great Wall was built to protect aginst invasions from the North, but does not specifically mention who these invaders were, and why they were attacking China. Were these Mongolians, Russians... some other tribes existing those days? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.95.226.224 (talk) 17:29, August 29, 2007 (UTC)

I would assume the Mongol hordes. Jmlk17 11:22, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, that's right. The Ming Dynasty came directly after the Yuan Dynasty (Mongol Empire). Majority of the wall that remains today are built by the Ming Dynasty. And the Ming knew the Mongols have the ability to "re-invade" China and hence this leads to the "completion" of the Great Wall. Remember that the "oldest" sections of the Wall were built in the Spring and Autumn Period, even before the Qin Dynasty. Oidia (talk) 11:29, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Distance

What is the wall distance from Shanhaiguan to Jiayuguan (pass)? I think that length should be used because that represent the length of the Ming Dynasty Great Wall, not a combination of walls from different dynasty. --Voidvector 03:04, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Conquest

The other night I heard on a documentry about the great wall that it was conquered on the 27th of May 1644 and no blood was spilt. I reackon the date should be added.

--X Gui 21:55, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Lengthening of Great Wall and China's Northeast Project(东北工程)

I am horrified to find the recent attempt to extend the Great Wall into non-Chinese territories as a part of China's infamous Northeast Project, the fraudulent rewrite of ancient Chinese history to support current Chinese communist regime and its territorial claims. The Great Wall was the longest during Ming Dynasty, when China was the strongest, yet its eastern end was Shanhai Pass, barely above Beijing. Qin and Han dynasties were far weaker and were in no position to built the Great Wall into the land of foreign barbarians who routinely raided into Chinese land and demanded huge tributes, the very reason the Great Wall was built in the first place.

The maps of Qin and Han dynasty era is clearly incorrect and must be removed. After all, Wikipedia is not run by Chinese communist party and must not aid a state-organized academic fraud by Chinese communist party. Wikipedia's integrity depends on it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.90.45.112 (talk) 17:02, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Size for visibility from the moon

The article says this "an object of reasonable contrast to its surroundings some 70 miles in diameter (1 arc-minute) would be visible to the unaided eye from the moon, whose average distance from Earth is 384,393 km (238,857 miles)."

Wanting to know in the metric system how much that was I took different approaches and got, from research into the arc-minute article (I was hoping it said something about their length on the globe, and so did it, I got 1,86 km as the length along the equator), I also got a formula I applied to generate an isosceles that, effectively, would be a couple of right angle triangles with a height of 384393 km and the sides opposite to said angle would, together, add up to the length of the diameter an object would need to be to be visible from the moon, with trigonometry I had something that was like 56.87 times larger than what I had when I followed my third approach, of finding how many kilometers there are in 70 miles, which itself was 60 times larger than the earthen arcminute as defined by the arcminute article... With this said I must insist something must be done to correct this or, if the data is not wrong, to clarify it without ambigous info. Personally I can't do so however because I'm myself confused. Undead Herle King (talk) 00:49, 11 May 2009 (UTC) the Great wall of China is BIG!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.132.104.152 (talk) 21:37, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Qi Jiguang

Shouldn't the efforts of Qi Jiguang to improve the wall to its powerful state (instead of rammed earth) be mentioned? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xevorim (talk • contribs) 14:46, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Han legend?

The Qin Dynasty wall image has an explaination of what the colours represet (and there's only one wall color) - the Han one has 3 wall colors (and some dotted lines) and doesn't have a legend. Anyone wanna does not give any indication of where in the image the wall is... I for one don't know where it is in the picture. Can anyone add some sort of clarification to the image TheHYPO (talk) 08:43, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Visible or not?

> The Great Wall has a maximum width of 30 ft (9.1 m), far below the size that would be visible at a distance of 238,857 miles (384,403 km) (the average distance between the earth and the moon). <

This statement from the article is dubious. Look at a radio/TV transmission mast a dozen miles apart. Suprisingly the steel ropes holding the guyed mast vertical are often visible to the eye, even though they are only inches thick (better say thin). However, they are very long and this makes it possible for the human eye to discern them. Similarly the gap in Saturn's ring is sometimes visible with just 20x or 30x binoculars, which is optically impossible based on the comparision of width and eye resultion. However, the ring gap is also very long and this aides the eye.

Similarly the extreme lenght of the chinese wall may aid the eye to recognize it. This definitely needs further research. 91.83.19.241 (talk) 23:36, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

The statement is in question is entirely reasonable. No-one has ever claimed to be able to see the wall from anything other than a low earth orbit - 100 miles or so. The idea that it could be seen from the moon predates space travel and is obvious fiction, unsupported by a grain of evidence.

You could try this test - look at this Google Earth picture Badaling in which the Wall runs North to South - I defy anyone to identify it although many building as perfecty clear. Only when you zoom in will it become apparent.

Also, the idea that the wall is of 'extreme length' is an over-simplification. It snakes in many directions, it condition is often so delapidated as to merge with the rocky landscape and for huge distances it has all but disappeared. I have flown over some of the better preserved lengths and very often, it can hardly be seen from a plane. If you believe it can be seen from the moon, then frankly, you will believe anything.

There are many myths about the Great Wall: That it can be seen from the moon. That is a lie. Astronauts thought that they could see its shadow from space, but it was really just clouds!

--John Price (talk) 20:44, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Just to put it into perspective, the notion that the Great Wall is visible from the Moon is equivalent to that of spotting an extremely long piece of string from cruising altitude on a 747. No matter how long it is, it is ludicrous to claim that it can be seen.

Calculations: The average flight altitude of a commercial jet is around 10 km. Given that the Moon's closest point of orbit is 363,103 km from the Earth, a jet is 36,310 times closer to the Earth. Divide the widest point on the wall (9.1 m) by 36,310 and you get a width of 0.25mm.

--Caifeng Blah554 (talk) 23:22, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I saw a 2cm long piece of string from 18 miles away with the unaided eye. It all depends on your eyes.

Of course you did (!) --Caifeng Blah554 (talk) 20:44, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

By the way - though I've often heard the Great Wall chosen as a feature visible from space, what about the bands of irrigated farms surrounding the Suez Canal and the older canal (dating back to 12th century B.C.) linking the Nile delta with the Bitter Lakes and thereby the Red Sea? Those isolated bands of green meeting at a right angle are a highly visible artificial feature. (See Nile delta for photo) Wnt (talk) 09:03, 3 February 2009 (UTC)¨

If the Great Wall should be visible, one could expect to also see *alot* more roads, rails and rivers which generally are vastly longer and broader. --Vin Kaleu (talk) 10:17, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

In 2003, chinese astronaut, Yang LiWei claimed that he was not able to see the Great Wall in space which destroyed what Martian said to make all chinese happy before. 2:46pm November 13th 2011

Capital W?

In this article the word "wall" when used by itself is sometimes spelt with a capital W, sometimes lowercase. Which is correct? And can we keep it consistent? Fantom (talk) 16:56, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

I think the capital W is the correct one. If the sentence uses the term "great fall", then it should be capitalised. But if the sentence uses the term "the wall", then I think it would be in lower case. Oidia (talk) 04:51, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Longest/largest structure?

The List of Largest buildings page makes absolutely no mention of the great wall. And it definitely isnt the longest man made structure, the distance it covers in nothing when compared to the Pan-American Highway. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.180.230.183 (talk) 09:03, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

A highway is not a structure, a highway is an infrastructure. Oidia (talk) 17:58, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

A highway is a structure as well as forming part of an infrastructure; the two are not mutually exclusive. The Great Wall of China is, therefore, neither the longest nor the most extensive man made structure. I also have grave doubts as to whether it is the most massive considering the amount of tarmac, earth and concrete that go into building a road. If anyone can offer any more information on this, it would be appreciated. If not, I will be editing in order to remove these erroneous/dubious claims. --Caifeng Blah554 (talk) 22:37, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

The wall is the longest the most extensive man-made structure because it is literally man-made. Highways and such are made with the involvement of machinery. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.249.189.26 (talk) 02:36, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

The great wall was built with assistance of machinery as well. And it is not continuous. 99.236.221.124 (talk) 22:06, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

building material

what is the differince between the eastern and western building material of the great wall of china? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.108.84.172 (talk) 01:56, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

The material on the west is positioned slightly differently, it seems to be placed more to the western regions of the wall —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.251.229.70 (talk) 01:41, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Discovery Channel special

The Great Wall was featured as part of Discovery Channel China Week, with the documentary "Behind the Great Wall". It's an interesting show if only because it also takes a look at the personalities who conceived of the Great Wall, rather than just the Wall itself. Have a look here: http://www.channelcanada.com/Article1532.html. I don't know if it's appropriate to add a link in the article so I'm just going to leave it at that. But I think some of the content, if accurate, is worth adding to the encyclopedia. Ham Pastrami (talk) 02:34, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

[[Media:Example.ogg]

No human remains in the construction

The article states, "Contrary to the belief peasants were not buried inside of the wall as the stability of the structure would have been threatened once their bodies decomposed." This assertion has no supporting evidence and is just as baseless as the statement that humans were indeed buried inside the wall; therefore the statement should be removed. The latter part of the statement applies a pseudo-scientific argument about the engineering of the wall. It presents no concrete evidence (pun intended) of the engineering infeasibility of putting human remains in the wall and assumes that the actual engineers knew it would create instability. The common belief that there are human remains inside the wall may be an artifact of oral history. It is plausible that there were actual incidents of intentional entombment, or the builders may have merely neglected to remove the remains of those who died during construction. Both the belief about human remains and the number of deaths from the construction may stem from Chinese folklore which states, "Every stone in the wall represents the death of one of its builders." There is no doubt that the wall was built with considerable amounts of slave labor, and given the known brutality of the Wall's conceivers and the deaths observed in the construction of modern marvels, it's not implausible that millions died in its construction. The fact that this page is not editable tells me that there is considerable disagreement of fact, and our observation of Chinese propaganda and censorship of the internet identifies at least one of the parties to the disagreement. 98.207.78.26 (talk) 18:00, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

The page is not editable by anonymous (IP) editors because of recurring vandalism, not because of disagreement over facts.

As far as the decomposed bodies, I removed Contrary to the belief peasants were not buried inside of the wall as the stability of the structure would have been threatened once their bodies decomposed. because (a) no source is given and (b) I think this is trivial (even assuming that the claim was made by a reliable source and rebutted by a reliable source). Per WP:NOT, Wikipedia isn't an indiscriminate collector of information. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 15:00, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

That statement has no substance - It has been estimated that somewhere in the range of 2 to 3 million Chinese died as part of the centuries-long project of building the wall. Needs to be removed as well. --Tigga en (talk) 11:46, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

This article lacks detail

This article lacks detailed information about many relevant aspects. For example, nowhere in the article does it mention the fact that The Great Wall was a site where conquered peoples (such as the ancestors of today's Cantonese peoples) were enslaved en masse.

You need to find reliable sources that will confirm those statements. Oidia (talk • contribs) 12:00, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

It is very surprising indeed that this article still says nothing about conquered peoples being enslaved. Considering that this is a well known fact, this omission needs to be addressed now. Paradoxically enough, the Wikipedia article Nam Viet does state the following:

The Yue, under the domination of the Han (Han Wudi) was forced, wiped, tortured and enslaved to repair and enhance the Great Wall of China.

Perhaps someone is deliberately censoring material here and on the article itself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.109.98.211 (talk) 10:12, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't think anybody is deliberately censoring information; if you want to add information on enslavement find some reliable sources and add the information. I haven't got the knowledge or know of the sources to do so myself. --Caifeng 82.16.98.54 (talk) 17:27, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

If that was added, I believe that the neutrality of the article would be questioned. After all, not a single ancient structure have avoided the involvement of the use of slaves.Shawn1cai (talk) 03:36, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Circular reference

There is a reference to Great Wall of China website. But that website says It uses material from the Wikipedia article "Great Wall of China". I guess we should not use it as source then. --Tigga en (talk) 21:23, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I like the Great Wall of China!!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.24.246.148 (talk) 22:11, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Can't edit semi protected or whatever

But a foot is not 15cm as claimed in the article, it is 30.48cm someone else fix it for me............ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.237.79.148 (talk) 11:55, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Have edited as the figures didn't make sense. Using the analogue of being 100m away the thread would have to be 1.5m long not 15cm or 1ft. More importantly, it is the width (at 2.3μm) which makes it invisible. --Caifeng Blah554 (talk) 17:58, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Maps

It would be helpful if the various maps included in the article showed the modern provincial boundaries. Otherwise, it's difficult to get a sense of where in the PRC the various walls actually are. -- Beland (talk) 15:37, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

There is a map showing the modern political boundaries.Shawn1cai (talk) 03:35, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

== No word about its functions? ==Wow, I just came to this site to learn. Please, there are young people such as my nephews that I would like to inspire to learn and appreciate sites such as these, but I think the swearing structure should be monitored for the sake of the young and impressionable,and even the old ones too.Thank You

why is this structure built? for art? i cant see any graffiti on it. If protection, what was the efficiency of it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.107.92.126 (talk) 07:16, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Though the reply was harsh, I must agree that the original comment was very stupid. If you even had read half of the article, you would have known what it was made for.

200 BC - 220 BC

In the intro 200 BC - 220 BC should be 220 BC - 200 BC I guess. Isn't it? -ArazZeynili_talk^contrib_{07:54, 10 May 2008 (UTC)}

The great wall was not built for defense. Rather, it was built to keep out evil spirits. This is why the wall has so many dead ends and curves in it. It was not built efficiently to provide any defense at all. In fact, it would actually have been easy for any invaders to scale it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.239.235.166 (talk) 13:32, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

^ Has to be THE most ignorant joke on the page. The Mongolians who built almost their entire empire using cavalry, had to get on boats to get AROUND the wall to invade China. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.64.21.211 (talk) 16:23, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

He/She

"Surprisingly, no lunar astronaut has ever claimed he could see the Great Wall from the moon."

Removed "he or she." No female has walked on the moon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Heterodyne (talk • contribs) 21:46, 12 May 2008 (UTC) the reason why the great wall is there so that the mongoles and othere invaders kill them —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.245.4.213 (talk) 02:21, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

城

城 does not mean wall, it means fortress. so in chinese, it should mean "Great fortress", not long wall. I'd fix that minor mistake, but i'm not logged in. 71.134.59.77 (talk) 09:48, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

I also think that should be changed. Furthermore, the translation of "万里长城" is not at all accurate; it is in fact very literal and shows little understanding of the actual Chinese meaning. However, the citation given to that translation has a very good translation of the term "万里长城," and I believe that translation should be used instead.Shawn1cai (talk) 00:43, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

How do we know the literal translation is not accurate? It is the same one our Chinese language professor, from China, gave us. Also, I have heard many Chinese translate 长城 as Long Wall. Joe0622 (talk) 19:48, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

I think you misunderstand. The literal translation is correct, but it does not reflect the actual meaning. The literal translation is 10,000 Li Long Wall, but it really means more on the line of "Infinitely Long Great Fort." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.249.190.155 (talk) 16:52, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

How long is it?

It doesnt even tell me how long the great wall is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.169.168.25 (talk) 06:25, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Did you read the article? There is no single 'Great Wall'. There are a lot of walls built over various time periods. Doug Weller (talk) 13:12, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism

does this page get really that much vandalism? --∑ssarege∑ (talk) 01:00, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Where is it?

Well... aren't there coordinates for at least one point of the wall??--Fluence (talk) 23:09, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

The Great Firewall of China?

The See also: link to The Great Firewall of China has no relevance at all to the topic of this article and should be removed. 90.136.30.103 (talk) 14:43, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

It makes sense to link here because it is a term in popular use inspired by the Great Wall of China. JoshuaZ (talk) 14:45, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Orders of magnitude (length) is also unrelated. As for the firewall, people wanting to learn more about the Great Wall of China will have no use for the Great Firewall article. The is no relationship whatsoever. 90.136.203.150 (talk) 12:56, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Location

The location given at the beginning of the 2nd paragraph is incorrect. The wall does start at Shanhaiguan in the east, but its western end is at Jiayuguan, not Lop Nur. The wall never even makes it to Xinjiang; it ends in Gansu. Pgmark (talk) 18:53, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

A user's removal of map

User Gantuya eng has been removing a map of the Great Wall in the user's last edits. The user's reason was just one sentnece: "anti-scientific map", and that was it.

The map Gantuya eng removed [10] was created by user Maximilian Dörrbecker/Chumwa. This is a very well referenced map and everything was given and listed (and the German version is even a featured picture). All of the sources that this map used have been in very clear and detailed fashion, listed in the map's Source description. The primary source this map used for the Great Wall of China and the Construction of the Great Wall was based on the National Geographic Society's map [11] of the Great Wall of China, and is listed as one of the main sources by the map's creater Maximilian Dörrbecker. There is absolutely no reason to remove a very thoroughly researched map that is based on a map created by the most reputed organization that specializes on maps. Gantuya eng, did you bother to look at the map's Source section? If you would consider a National Geographic Society's map "anti-scientific", perhaps no one else should make maps then.---Balthazarduju (talk) 20:06, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

The map Gantuya eng deleted is a fraud and his actions are perfectly justified. The eastern end of Great Wall ends at Shanhaiguan; above it are what Chinese called the barbarian land. What that fraud map claims is to claim that Chinese built the wall into the territory of barbarians who were continuously raiding into China; the land of Xianbeis, Khitans, and Koreans. Any map of Great Wall showing extensions above Shanhaiguan pass is a fraud engineered by Chinese communist party and not based on historical facts and should be removed.

This map is incorrect and not accepted by archeologists worldwide (who aren't allowed access to some of the sites until they are 'restored'). 99.236.221.124 (talk) 22:08, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Question

Who built the Great Wall of China? Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.58.1.114 (talk) 03:53, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Please read the article. There is no single wall and no single builder. This is a talk page for discussing improvements to the article, not the Great Walls themselves.Dídn't chinese slaves build the great wall of china!!! dougweller (talk) 08:12, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

WHAT IS THE LATITIUDE AND LONGITUDE OF THE GREAT WALL OF CHINA?

I am wondering now if these questions are just vandalism. Obviously a long wall would not have a latitude and longitude, and there is no single 'Great Wall' as the article makes clear. dougweller (talk) 07:50, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

thanks dougweller

HOW MANY PEOPLE DID IT TAKE TO BUILD THE GREAT WALL OF CHINA?

Length Needs Updates

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090420/sc_afp/chinaheritagegreatwall

Length is much longer than initially thought. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.88.13.106 (talk) 13:42, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Condition Section

It states in the condition section of the article that no detailed survey has been carried out of the wall. This does not appear to be true any longer, following the publication of this BBC News Article:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/8008108.stm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.197.187.227 (talk) 17:07, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

There has been quite a few estimations over the years, although I'm not sure which one is the most accurate. This estimate is quite comphrensive, but 4,000 miles seems to be in the middle range, as oppose to 3,107 miles or 5,000 miles, so perhaps we should use this one.--Balthazarduju (talk) 19:43, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Updated the information using the BBC source.--Balthazarduju (talk) 20:54, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Length of wall

The length needs changing, the wall is much longer: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/8008108.stm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.100.172.15 (talk) 20:50, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

comment removed due to vandalismGWST11 (talk) 22:28, 9 June 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.216.47.200 (talk) 13:24, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

I've updated the details about length, including the breakdown for lengths of actual wall, trenches and hills and rivers, from the recent comprehensive survey. This supersedes two older, less reliable estimates of the total length, so I've removed them. Cimbalom (talk) 02:02, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

The "older" 6,400 km (4,000 miles) length should be kept, because it is still a commonly cited length. Recent archaeological survey of length should also be noted. Detailed breakdown of the wall perhaps isn't necessary for the lead section.--Balthazarduju (talk) 07:03, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I took the two older length estimates out because they were unreliable. The first was from a student project, which in the next sentence said that the wall could be seen by the naked eye from the moon. The second was from Encyclopædia Britannica Online, which at first glance would seem reliable, but it gives three lengths, two of which are clearly inconsistent: it gives a length of 7,300 km including all branches, but then says that the Ming sections are 8,850 km, i.e. those parts are longer than all the various parts combined! Note, this reported length of the Ming section appears to be derived from the 8851.8 km of the recent survey reported by AFP, which was said to be of the whole wall. Further investigation reveals that the meticulousness of Britannica's fact checking may be questionable: anyone can submit edits, but Britannica claims that "an abbreviated editorial process allows these changes to be published almost immediately while still being subject to rigorous in-house and external review." I accept that a variety of estimates exist, so perhaps it would be best to give a range of these estimates, with a special mention of the most recent survey, which was reported to be comprehensive. This is what I have just done. Cimbalom (talk) 13:20, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

The Britannica length is not just online version, because the information is found on their printed encyclopedia and existed on their online articles long before they allowed edit submission and fact checking. Various encyclopedia sources varies, so I don't think it is necessary to include all of them, or appropriate to include a lesser known encyclopedia's information. Juding from this note, it is perhaps better to not include it, since many other estimations also exist, and including them all is perhaps too much.--Balthazarduju (talk) 15:01, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Should the article use the plural form 'walls' more? We aren't talking about one continous long wall, we are talking about various walls in various places at different times, right? Dougweller (talk) 17:12, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

The correct length of Great Wall is 6,400 km. The Great Wall is no El-Dorado, its location is well known and well researched. It is the Chinese communist party's fraud that's extending the Great Wall due to political considerations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.90.45.112 (talk) 16:43, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Different sections

I remembered being surprised at how different the Ming Great Wall was in its western sections, which you don't often see. I felt this worth adding.

I also think the 'Notable Areas' section needs editing. It says "The following three sections are in Beijing municipality" - it includes Jiayuguan, way over to the west in Gansu.--GwydionM (talk) 17:17, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Sources

I've removed some unreliable sources, including one from a very short essay by a high school student. I've left the Britannica one by I think encyclopedias are rarely good sources for articles such as this one. Why isn't Waldron used as a source I wonder? I'm also a bit concerned by a tendency for the article (and some of the newspaper sources) to treat what was a series of walls as one long wall. Dougweller (talk) 08:03, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Content

Can't believe nearly half of the entire article concerns visibility from space. Angry bee (talk) 16:25, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps more interestingly, Marco Polo doesn't mention it in his book, though he would have seen it many times - some modern researchers have picked up on this to suggest he actually didn't visit China but only constructed his book from second-hand reports (other travellers). /Strausszek (talk) 23:14, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Can't believe nearly half of the entire article concerns visibility from space. I can. Ask anybody outside China what they know about the Great Wall and they will tell you that it is "the only man-made object visible from space" (or the Moon). Which is absolute bull****, but a myth that continues to be circulated. The section on visibility provides an comprehensive (and not particularly long) demolition of this nonsense. Famousdog (talk) 11:48, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Great Wall of China

It has been called the wall of death and the longest graveyard in the world.It is the only thing made by humans that can be seen from the space.It stretches for 5500 kilometers,from the sea to the icy mountains in the west,and was built in less than 15 years.This is the great wall of China. When Qin Shihuang united China and become the emperor in 221 BC,he planned a mighty wall which,once and for all, would stop the naomads from attacking his kingdom. The wall was begun in 219 BC and work finished in 204 BC. How the work was organised? It is estimated that brtween 300 000 to 50 000 people worked on the wall. Building the Great Wall required enormous organisation.first the workers had to be found.The Emperor forced many people to work on the wall:farmers were taken from their fields,prisoners were taken from the jails,those who disagreed with the Emperor were taken to the wall,soldiers were stationed there.From all parts of china,they walked to the wall,probably roped together. --[[Navida Rahmani 26/09/2009

It cannot been seen from space. Read the article. Famousdog (talk) 11:43, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

More and more people knew the Great Wall after president of China, Mao Zedong said "You're not a real man if you're not got to the Great Wall" in 1935. This sentence is used as a slogan of the Great Wall on souvenir. ---Zhu Yongquan 13/11/2011

Origin

I don't think there's enough in the article about who actually built and maintained the wall--that is, who did the actual labor. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.145.109.133 (talk) 01:41, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from 72.64.250.238, 10 April 2010

{{editsemiprotected}} under Notable areas, there are some grammatical errors. It says, "25 km west of the Liao Tian Ling stands of part of Great wall" Wall should be capitalized and the first "of" should be "a"

72.64.250.238 (talk) 14:22, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Done I hope you meant "Stands apart". That's what I changed it into. If it's wrong, someone correct it. --JokerXtreme (talk) 14:45, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Proud of something so big

I can understand national pride, but readers coming here to find out whether the Wall is "visible from space" ought to be told right off that you need the help of a good lens to make it out. Either a camera or a pair of binoculars.

If we have an article on objects visible from space, this could be enlarged upon.

The only thing easily visible from space is the light pollution from cities. Wealthy cities waste a heck of a lot of light. North Korea's poverty can easily be seen at night, as the entire northern half of the Korean peninsula is dark.

Anyway, let's not allow national pride to get in the way of accurate article writing. --Uncle Ed (talk) 16:55, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Absolutely agree. This "fact" is absolute nonsense, easily debunked with an ounce of intelligence and a moment's reflection. Famousdog (talk) 09:38, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

As of the moment (this is wikipedia, things can change!) the article goes into this topic in almost too much detail, not just pooh-poohing the idea but explaining the history and optics of several scenarios. It is debunking of the highest order. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 11:10, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Need some Turkish friends to verify this

I heard a rumor that in Turish school text book it claims that"The Great Wall was built to prevent the Turkic invasion" This is true, some sort of true or just a rumor.

Regards —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.52.65.20 (talk) 01:54, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Answer to Need some Turkish friends to verify this

It is not a rumor it is true. Yes, Great Wall of China was built to prevent Turkish attacks. But not only built against Turkish. Wall was built against Mongolians too. That can be see in books about Turks and Chinese. The wall was built against to Hun Empire in B.C. 300. Huns are one of Turkish nomadic people. But the wall didn't protect China. The wall was passed by Huns and Mongolians. Wall was repaired many times for this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.54.87.213 (talk) 12:40, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

No, the walls were not built to protect against the Hunnic Empire because that was not 300 BCE but about 400 CE. The article explains why the first walls were built. Dougweller (talk) 15:25, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

You are both equating Europe's Huns with Mongolia's Xiongnu. This is a traditional theory proposed in the 18th century that modern scholarship no longer accepts. When the original (Qin) Great Wall was built, the Chinese where already referring to those people to the north as "Xiongnu", whatever they be in modern terms. The Qin Wall was a modest affair, just rammed earth. It was more like a border fence than a military fortification. The pictures you see of the Great Wall are from Badaling and Nankou Pass. These sections were built much later, in the Ming dynasty. Kauffner (talk)

Mistranslations and misinterpretations are so common. There are people just north and west of the Great Wall who are today refereed to as Turkmen or Turkic. For example in modern day Turkmenistan. However, that doesn't mean they are the same people as found in modern day Turkey. Though there may be some link between these people in modern language and culture, that does not prove there was any such link 2,200 years ago during the Chinese Qin dynasty, or even later during the Ming dynasty. Rincewind42 (talk) 17:02, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from 76.93.234.93, 1 February 2011

{{edit semi-protected}}

76.93.234.93 (talk) 03:14, 1 February 2011 (UTC) put a comma after yan in the history

Not done: See Serial comma. -Atmoz (talk) 15:08, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Although the use of serial commas is inconsistent. Dougweller (talk) 16:23, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

It is inconsistent, self-contradictory, and confusing - on the other hand, the problem is minor, transitory and never confuses readers. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 16:35, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Edit request

Hi, Could a registered user add links in the Further Reading to the Peter Hessler and Julia Lovell pages? I'm too new. Thanks shuijiashaojun — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shuijiashaojun (talk • contribs) 21:46, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from , 27 November 2011

Sylvia.p (talk) 06:40, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Not done: please be more specific about what needs to be changed. Zidanie5 (talk) 14:27, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Edit request on 24 December 2011

The length of the wall is greatly misleading and is not backed up by reliable, 3rd party source. Here are some info on that:

http://www.prkorea.com/english/e_video/evideo34.htm http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/lofiversion/index.php/t302154.html http://www.igoo.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-64569.html http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2009/09/116_52682.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_Project_of_the_Chinese_Academy_of_Social_Sciences

At the very least, the length of the wall should be written as "disputed" and not confirmed as it is now. Millions of students/scholars worldwide are taking what's on Wikipedia as the truth.

Jykang (talk) 19:52, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

Two forum topics, a wiki entry (no mention there), and two unreliable sites with such biased wording. That doesn't cut it. --Cold Season (talk) 18:11, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Edit request on 24 December 2011

Compare it to another wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheolli_Jangseong

Jykang (talk) 19:58, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

How do you want us to compare it? You'd need sources comparing them. I note that that article is badly sourced, by the way. Dougweller (talk) 20:22, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

Edit request on 23 January 2012

i have a bunch of info from a school project — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaitlyn72783 (talk • contribs) 21:39, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Can't do much with that request, you have to supply the specific info that you want added and credible citations. Cheers, Cold Season (talk) 00:00, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

The Photo Gallery

The photographs in the Gallery do not, I feel, give an adequate representation of the Wall. Furthermore, they are not captioned. Hence, I have added one that shows the wall in an unrestored state. I propose there needs to be more photos added, not less, so that a better view of the wall can be given, especially since most of it is unrestored. To date, the gallery contains only a few snapshots of the tourist areas where the wall has been restored. Bryan MacKinnon (talk) 05:14, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Photos that are radically different and provide new information - sure. More of the same sort of photos (this one shows a sunset! this one is framed better) - no. The photo you added does seem to be new, and worth keeping; I have removed a couple of repetitive ones. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 12:56, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

I actually do think we should include "better framed" and higher quality photos, especially ones that readers can see the subject in question. Some of the photos here are shot in distance and mostly only shows the background, and they can be monotone as well.--Balthazarduju (talk) 18:45, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that's true. But then we should replace the poorer-quality photo, not just add another picture, which is what tends to happen, especially on articles about tourist-visited places where lots of editors have personal photos. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 19:40, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Limit of China?

The portrayal in this article of the Great Wall as China's pre-Qing northern border is problematic. According to the Mongolist Zhou Qingshu, "In the past imperialists nonsensically argued that China from ancient times saw the Great Wall as a boundary, that north of the Great Wall was not part of China's territory, and that Han people only settled beyond the Great Wall very recently ... these arguments are not convincing". A major argument of Christopher Beckwith in Empires of the Silk Road was that the Great Wall was not primarily defensive; that it was used by expanding Chinese empires in order to consolidate territorial gains and to project power beyond the wall. We should investigate and thoroughly explain in this article to what extent that this received wisdom, that the Great Wall represented a limit to Chinese culture, is true. (Although in some cases, the unfortunate diplomatic tendency of the Chinese government to censor maps that portray China's historical boundaries as exceeding the PRC's contemporary ones, may disqualify PRC sources) Shrigley (talk) 03:28, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

1920 article in the geographical review

http://library.uoregon.edu/ec/e-asia/read/clapper.pdf

Rajmaan (talk) 05:23, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Change wall length

Please change the wall length from 8,850km to 21,196.18km based on the latest state survey results.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-18337039

Smkilani (talk) 11:42, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Done Mdann52 (talk) 15:14, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

206.201.224.117 (talk) 22:37, 2 May 2013 (UTC)The Chinese government reported the extended length of the Great Wall tripled: From 4000 miles to 5500 miles in 2009 penetrating into North Korea, again to 14000 miles in 2012 which was too much exaggerated. The reason: China manipulated its history in favor of China in advance to the growing influence over the Manchuria region by Korea which would be united soon and suppress Uyghru movements in western Mongoria. Manchuria's walls are actually built by ancient Korean kingdoms206.201.224.117 (talk) 22:37, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

in which city is it

In which city it is located — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.96.220.216 (talk) 05:42, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Edit Request

I request this because according to some of the facts I have researched, some of the vital measurements of the Wall are incorrect, and need to be restored to factual information. Overseer693 (talk) 03:54, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Not done: please make your request in a "change X to Y" format. And include reliable sources which support the change you would like made. Thanks Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 04:30, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

That's not going to happen. I just blocked him indefinitely as all his article space edits were obvious vandalism. As is this I think, just trolling here. Dougweller (talk) 07:31, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

History section needs rewriting now there is a new article

With the creation of History of the Great Wall of China the history section here fails to follow our guideline at WP:SUMMARY. Dougweller (talk) 18:52, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Controversy over the exaggerated length of Great Wall

Jameskim235 (talk) 18:27, 13 February 2013 (UTC) Recently, the Chinese government reported the extended length of the Great Wall triple times than before.

1) From 4000 miles to 5500 miles in the 2009 report (to penetrate into North Korea) 2) Again from 5500 miles to 14000 miles in the 2012 report

which are too much exaggerated.

The reason: China wants to make a counter attack to the growing influence over the Manchuria region by Korea which would be united soon and increasing conflict with Uyghur tribe in western Mongoria. To do that, China decided to manipulate its ancient history over the region and the extending the wall is just a part of it. There is so called 'Northeastern Project' inside Chinese government that researches and manipulates the history over the Manchuria in favor of China.

The reported span of the wall crosses the entire Manchuria and reaches near Vladivostok. China never controlled the region in ancient times. Rather they defended the attacks from powers over the region. The walls inside current China's territory does not mean it is their manipulable history. It is a world history. The walls are built by Koguryo and Barhae which are Korean ancient kingdom.

The Chinese claim has been rejected by scholars outside of China, especially in Korea. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.201.224.117 (talk) 21:46, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Then you need sources that meet our criteria at WP:RS stating this and we can show both. I've removed your bit about "the world should know", that's inappropriate here. We can show differing opinions if the opinions are significant and well sourced. Dougweller (talk) 04:54, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Jameskim235 (talk) 04:51, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

China’s Historical Distortion Stretches to Great Wall

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2009/09/116_52682.html

The Controversy over the Great Wall of China's Expansion

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCKDRMsZ-9k&list=PL94E00DE0CB645926

US to publish report on Chinese distortion of Korean history: sources

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2012/12/120_127479.html

The North East Project of China - History Manipulation

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_Project_of_the_Chinese_Academy_of_Social_Sciences

China's Northeast Project Issues

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7-Ov8wn7wQ

China's Northeast project site (the evidence)

http://bjzx.cass.cn/news/129976.htm

Jameskim235 (talk) 18:09, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Korean nationalist propaganda is not an acceptable rebuttal to alleged Chinese nationalist propaganda. To add to that, the only propaganda actually here is coming from the Korean side, because the modern Great Wall built by the Ming and the Han dynasty era Wall are two different structures. The modern Great Wall does not extend into Korea, but the Han dynasty wall most certainly does. The Han dynasty ruled northern Korea as the Lelang Commandery, Before Goguryeo ever existed. Whether Goguryeo is Chinese or Korean has nothing to do with it, because the Han dynasty China ruled northern Koea before Goguryeo! I understand some Korean ultra- nationalists claim Lelang was somehwere in Siberia or Manchuria, but we'll leave that nonsense out here.

05:09, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 15 March 2014

The great wall of China was destroyed On March 2, 2014 from a nuclear bomb that was sent from North Korea 76.99.129.89 (talk) 14:16, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Cannolis (talk) 14:23, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

How much of the Ming Great Wall follows the old wall lines?

This is one problem with infoboxes - they oversimplify things. The Ming Great Wall may have been completed in the 17th century but it certainly wasn't started in the 7th c. BC - our article dates it to about 1442. So how much of it follows the line of earlier walls? It would be nice to have this in both articles. Dougweller (talk) 16:10, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 October 2014

Add External links:

• An Adventurer's Guide to Hiking on the Great Wall of China

Travelledpaths (talk) 07:12, 17 October 2014 (UTC)  Not done Links to commercial sites are not permitted per this policy.  Philg88 ^♦talk 07:31, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 October 2014

Prabhakar Saw 110.172.53.117 (talk) 13:47, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Cannolis (talk) 15:19, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Great Wall of China/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

This article barely makes B class. It needs expansion in all areas and sources added. --Danaman5 08:00, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Last edited at 08:00, 13 January 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 20:28, 3 May 2016 (UTC)