Talk:Fleur-de-lis/Archive 1

Archive 1

Erzatz

The fleur-de-lis was referenced in the Wikipedia story of The Three Musketeers as a mark of a felon. There is no reference to this history on the Fleur-de-lis Wikepedia site. Any comments?

Clarefjones 12:08, 7 April 2007 (UTC)clarefjonesClarefjones 12:08, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Can someone put a border around the flag to make it stand out from the white background? -- Zoe

OK, done -- Taras

I recall from my genealogy chart -- but it's at home so I can't confirm the details -- that England was originally quartered with France Ancient. Gritchka (Later: yes it was; changed it.)

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The Prince of Wales also has a fleur de lis on his coat of arms. Aren't they three feathers? Wetman 22:05, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)

His badge is three feathers within a coronet which, iirc, has fleurs alternating with crosses. —Tamfang 06:13, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

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A lot more should be discussed on this page: the fleur-de-lis florenced of Firenze (Florence), for example. --Daniel C. Boyer 20:04, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

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I may confusing the Blue Angel's Fleur-de-lis with another maneuver. I'm trying to doublecheck. Rsduhamel 20:11, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Recently and anonymously added

"Contrary to popular belief, the fleur-de-lis did not originate in France. It was a creation of the ruling class of the Roman Empire, and the French merely adopted, not created, the symbol." Is there any source for this? I'm not deleting, because I simply have no idea of the fact of the matter, but it would be news to me. -- Jmabel | Talk 20:32, Oct 18, 2004 (UTC)

I saw the symbol on both Roman and Greek ruins, but I have no idea whether it was used as a symbol or merely ornament. [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 21:42, Oct 18, 2004 (UTC)

I actually thought that Fleur-De-Lis was a name before I read this article as I just read a book called Fleur-De-Lis!-- User:Silverwolf_athame

Language

Are France Modern and France Ancient French-language phrases? If so, they should be consistently italicized. -- Jmabel | Talk 19:20, Dec 15, 2004 (UTC)

No, heraldrese, like argent and gules.--Wetman 12:43, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The lily and the coronation of Clovis

"The fleur-de-lis' origins with French monarchs stems from the baptismal lily used in the crowning of King Clovis I. " The source for this detail could only be Gregory of Tours, book II.30-31 [1]. The text offers no lily involved in any way. Clovis was king before he was baptised, as we all vaguely remember from schooldays. That dove let down from the rafters is from the baptism of Clovis not the coronation, so there may be other legendary confusions here: to remove this one from the text might be invidious. --Wetman 12:43, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Fiat lis

Someone recently added anonymously "Fleur-de-luce also means Flower of Light" and a related remark. This is literally true, but is there any reason to believe it is etymologically relevant? Unless someone can come up with a citation from a decent source that says so, I think this should be removed. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:42, 14 September 2005 (UTC) Hey as you can se in the symbolism of the fleur-de-lis, it is "light" , spiritual light in religious symbolism. Now you are "enlightend" regards from another "enlighted" :)

The Oxford English Dictionary says:
"The prevailing form is a. mod.F. fleur de lis, formerly lys; but this form is scarcely found in Eng. before the 19th c.; see above. The form flower-de-luce survives as a poetical archaism and in U.S. The Fr. is literally ‘lily-flower’ from lis, formerly lys, in OF. liz for lils lily, the s of the nom. sing. being retained in the oblique cases; the English spelling de-lice, de-lyce, was in its origin merely graphic (cf. price, mice, syce, etc.), but in the 16th c. was associated with a fanciful etymology flos deliciæ, and the form deluce, de luce apparently also leaned upon a fanciful derivation. Occasional English forms were deluce, delyce flowre."
Not sure my attempt to clarify really belongs in the intro - but can't think how to restructure things right now. HJMG 08:42, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

So, in short, it was common English-language orthography, and folk etymology, but the claim of luce="light" as real etymology is still false. - Jmabel | Talk 05:53, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Another anonymous addition

<< The fleur-de-lis represents, in modern depth psychology, life and sun/light (resurrection and ascension). It is also an archetype symbol for flowers and birds (dove), in modern, eagle etc. >>

References are required. What the gleep is "modern depth psychology", anyway?

Urhixidur 01:27, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Depth psychology ? 10 700 000 hits on google.

Ref:In modern depth psychology it [Assumption/Resurection] is generalised, not pointing to any religion. Thats why "life/light"...

By my count "modern depth psychology": 545 hits on Google. Perhaps you did not put quotation marks around the phrase, so got all the pages that happened to have these three words on them?

Looking at some of these references, it seems to mean nothing more than "psychology that acknowledges the existence of unconscious thought", embracing Freud, Jung, Adler, and a lot more. Given that, the claim that "modern depth psychology" ascribes a particular meaning to a particular symbol strikes me as absolutely bogus. Perhaps the Jungians or some particular portion of the Jungians make a statement like this, but to describe it as if the entire psychoanalytic tradition were in agreement is misleading, to say the least. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:44, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Consequently, I have cut the following, pending citations. If any of this has solid citations, provide them and restore:

The fleur-de-lis represents, in modern depth psychology, life and light. It is also an archetype symbol for flowers and birds (dove).

The fleur-de-lis represent the Tree of Life Garden of Eden.

The Angel Gabriel is often pictured with the lily in his hand in the announcement of Christ's birth.

Jmabel | Talk 01:47, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

About the psychologian perspective

I can understand the depth psychologian [unconscious meaning) of the fleur-de-lis as a sexual symbol in its flower perspective. Flowers in depth psychology is a symbol for sex organs where the seed/sperm is "planted" = life. Circumcision symbolism of the fleur-de-lis is also refering to the sex organs (life)

It is also easy to understand: The seed (life) is growing and reaching for light (sunlight) (the growing/the bloom).

Because of the resssurection/assumption story the fleur-de-lis has become the biggest archtype symbol of flowers/the tree of life, representing lifes ressurection/assumption in the flower/tree "growing from earth and reaching heavens sun's light".

This is also a major reason why the fleur-de-lys has become the "crown flower""and the "fruit" of nations.

ref: Crown of Flowers/"Crown of Life"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_%28headgear%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:QueenMaryCirclet.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_State_Crown

Today nations, even UN, and the church use the fleur de lys in symbolism combined with flowers/trees/plant/leaf and birds dove/eagle (even flights), stars/candle etc.

To remove the birth symbolism (life/light itself), and the tree of life (Egyptian story/Eve story) etc, when it is common religious symbolism, is like "removing" the "crown of life", in my bok.

So until next time , research before remove and critisism ! Regards from a psychologist in profesion.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.109.44.116 (talk • contribs) .

If you want to add cited material saying who says this, fine. If you want, in effect, to claim without citation that everyone from Freud onwards believes this, that's another matter. -- Jmabel | Talk 14:32, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Moses??

"Here there is room for speculations about Moses ("son of Egypt") and his Egyptian cultural heritage in the writing of the book of Genesis)." I suppose there is room for speculation about anything, but why does it belong in an encyclopedia article? Can anyone make a good case for including this? Otherwise, I'd like to delete it. - Jmabel | Talk 05:29, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

It's been five days, no response, removing. - Jmabel | Talk 05:19, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

To begin with, did Moses exist? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 10:17, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Discussions about symbolism etc.

I thought it would help clarify things to have a distinct section for mystical, artistic or psychological symbolism. (Still needs a lot of tidying up.) Apologies if I've distorted anything while rearranging.
Dear anonymous editor(s), this could be very interesting, but it needs references to earn its place in an encyclopedia! All you need to do is put citations in between <ref> and </ref> . --HJMG 12:50, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

sic amica mea inter lilias or filias?

I've taken this out for now as I believe the version most people use is sic amica mea inter filias

Oops, sorry, didn't sign this. HJMG

Dear anonymous editor

Hello again! I was quite surprised you took out some citations I'd added. It made me wonder if you've had a chance to read the Wikipedia policies:

• ......we only publish material that is verifiable with reference to reliable, published sources.
• All Wikipedia articles must be written from a neutral point of view, representing views fairly and without bias.

Even when we've got interesting things to say, which we really believe in, we may have to find some other place to publish them. Encyclopedias need to try to provide impersonal, knowledgeable information.
Hope this helps you understand why I made some changes.--HJMG 08:46, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Copyright

"Therefore it is not rare, until the end of the 12th c., to see Christ represented amidst more or less stylised lilies or fleurons, whose design could also recall the Trinity of the Chrismon (Christ's monogram)." This, and more, comes from a website with a rough translation from Pastoureau's book. We can't use it here without mentioning the author. --HJMG 08:46, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Its like having copyrigth on this: "Jesus loves you and want to save you"... Nobodody has copyright on religious public information.... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.109.20.2 (talk • contribs) 28 August 2006.

Trinity?

The lead says the Fleur-de-lys "is a symbol for the Holy Trinity symbolising the Resurrection, the Assumption and the Annunciation." That's a rather unfamiliar Trinity. Where does this come from? (I dislike putting {{Fact}} tags in the lead...) Gimmetrow 20:12, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't know but maybe the one who wrote this meant that the threeness of the fleur can represent either the Trinity or these three events, though he placed them in chronologically wrong order (and may have confused Ascension and Assumption). Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 20:29, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I think this probably came from an anon editor who intermittently spends a lot of time on the article, and whose edits have often been mentioned on this talk page. See [2] and[3]. I would support removing the stuff about a Trinity of Resurrection, Assumption and Annunciation, unless a clear source can be found. (It's probably the same person who re-added the 'flower of light' idea to the lead paragraph.) --HJMG 09:10, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Note: since anon editors are continuously changing comments that have responses making the discussion impossible to follow, I am removing all of my following comments. Gimmetrow 21:51, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Maybe its Jesus trying to "enlightend" you...

Pretty sure that the fleur-de-lis representing the Trinity would not be hard to cite, but Annunciation / Resurrection / Ascension is another matter. [4] and [5] look useful on this and maybe other things. - Jmabel | Talk 20:18, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Unfamiliar Trinity ?

Wery mutch "familyar tree" (related)

The Ressurection: "gloryfication" from the son (Jesus) to the father (Is the trinity) Father-Son-Holy Spirit, 123 "pedals" trinity lily, dove, etc. (after death)

The Assumption: became "gloryfied" in/as the "Heavenly Mother" of Jesus, the Son" ("ressurected alive") (after jesus died) (painting exsamples: The Black Madonna of Częstochowa. The Notre Dame Madonna in the trinity fleur de lys, ref: http://france.dorleans.name/ The Madonna in Bourges cathedral ref: http://www.heraldica.org/topics/fdl.htm

The Annunciation: the lily used as a "tree of life/dove/angel" (combination) announcing/representing life" Mother Mary (life), giving life (Jesus, the Son), or in other worlds: the Holy Tree/Three. ref: http://www.entheomedia.org/datura_gallery.htm ref: http://www.mgardens.org/JS-FAHSOTT-MG.html

As a Trinity symbol the fleur de lis symbolize all those Trinity events...

Dont chance this symbolizme if you want it to be a serious objektive (enlightend) article.(it is wery important objektive religious symbolism).

Referanses: [removed because page doesent exist no more]

Ye i know all the relative (profan/sacrale) symbolism of the fleur de lis and i love it :).I have study if a "lifetime". Now I am talking about symbolizme in religion and its wrong to take away the trinity (life) when it always has been there... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.109.12.60 (talk)

BTW Gabriel is not a person, just an angel (spirit) representing/announcing the holy trinity coming down (birth/life)... So its not an attribute "spesificly to Gabriel" but to "life itself (the trinity)" (Here represented by Maria) giving birth to "life" (Represented by Jesus)". The angel gabriel is representing the holy spirit/the dove/the fleur de lis/life/born

Annunciation-Resurrection-Assumption is a part of the same trinity symbolism and the fleur de lis/lily is used on all that symbolism by the church, and even more in modern times. This is common knowledge...

The lily is one symbol, the fleur-de-lys is a different, more specific symbol. The Trinity is the Father-Son-Holy Spirit. The fleur-de-lys can represent that trinity.

The fleur de lis has reach a wery complex and big symbolism through history. I advise people to learn the hole symbolisme first and dont "reduce" it if it get to "big for you"r brain...

Off course in combination with, eksample: doves/angels, frogs etc the fleur de lis symbolism "can" be "reduced" or explained "separatly" (diffrensiated) because of the "colliding/crossing" symbolisme. But remember its all a part of the same symbolism/history and the complexity of creation.

Why does it represent a "trinity" of those three specific events at once?

Annunciation-Resurrection-Assumption is a part of the same trinity symbolism... "life dying/getting born" etc. And as a Trinity symbol the fleur de lis symbolize those Trinity events...

3 (tree) is 1 , the "same, but still different"... my friend...

All I see here is a rambling set of remarks. Nothing here specifically ties the Fleur-de-lis to Annunciation-Resurrection-Assumption. If you are saying that is just another aspect of the Trinity, then (1) this seems to me to be ill-founded in any other than very mystical doctrine and (2) this has little to do with the fleur-de-lis. - Jmabel | Talk 01:09, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Jmabel ! If you cant understand that life is the "ressurection" "from death to life (from son to father in Heaven" risen/ressurected, and the white lilly/fleur de lys is among other things used in funerals as a symbol of "death/life", then you have a lower IQ than I.

"Thats" is part of why I am d'Orleans (fleur de lys) and not you. "peasant IQ" I call it. Steve d'Orleans: "the King"

BTW, to atribute "Gabriel" so mutch instead of life itself (the trinity) is making a kind of "luzipher"..."wrong fixation/focus" ("away from the fruits (meal) of the tree of life" "africa etc"... "brown/brownie code" etc...

As I told before Gabriel is not a person but represent the spirit/dove/wings in the trinity and are just a "third" part of the 2 (Mary/Jesus) within them (like the kingdom of Heaven)or a unknown 3th person(persons) ("or a undentified flying objekt") etc... The "atribute" goes to Mother Mary (Father in Heaven) and Son..."the living life/fleur de lys/trinity" (the tree of life) "last meal etc" fruit of the tree...

So you can be so mutch "wikipaedian/wicked religion" you want.. "dare to fuck with me Jmabel" and get enlightend ("crowned"), or move to darkness ("hell") in denial/darkness"("death").

And off course I am the "editor" u missed..

regards from Steve...

BTW, What kind of "trinity do u prefer,? "peasant" or "king crowned" (enlightend) ???

I've reported this as a personal attack, and I'm done trying to interact with you: it is clear that you have no intention of addressing the question at hand. - Jmabel | Talk 21:37, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Want to fight with me "wiki ones" ? Its a "battle u "luce"... And for U mankind I am the maker/creator" REF: http://steve.dorleans.name/ and i real can tak u off "human scum"" so do the good act ,example help a poor one in africa or some peace work, and maybe and I say maybe I dont re the univers... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.48.238.4 (talk) 11:12, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

BTW if u define this as a personal attack then u have a serious problem defining subjektivity kontra objektivity... But off course if you want to define ur "denial of the trinity" as a war/attack against "me", telling u the truth to u about that trinity , yes then it is a "war and a attack agains the "darkness (denial of common truth) within you".

I'll take this article off of my watchlist, and I won't edit it further for the rest of the calendar year. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:41, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

So "be" in the "J-Ma" ["or Pa"] means the same: http://france.dorleans.name/ Represent "all" your good acts [words] are "Rosen"... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.48.108.184 (talk) 16:42, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Intro text

Quote: Stylized lilies similar to the fleur-de-lis may also symbolize the Resurrection or the Assumption.

Quote:The three-petaled arms of the cross symbolize the Trinity; the lily also symbolizes the resurrection. ref: http://www.cresourcei.org/symbols/chrismon.html

Its a 6 now ;) Steve... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.48.108.184 (talk) 15:56, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

The discussion is NOT about whether the three parts of the fleur-de-lis represents the Holy Trinity, the "Annunciation/Resurrection/Ascension", or anything else. That is simply not what the discussion is about. The discussion IS about the simple fact that you cannot simply "say" that it represents one thing or another without giving a credible reference. I could "say" that it represents the three columns of the Cabala, the three rivers at Pittsburgh, or the three bears for that matter, but unless I can give a credible reference to support my assertion then I am simply "whistling in the breeze." Get it? PGNormand 17:56, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Trivia section

I think some of the trivia doesn't really belong here. Various uses of the actual symbol are fine. The Blue Angels maneuver is questionable but close enough to the symbol that it's OK. However, the fact that a horse race uses the same name is not relevant trivia, and is handled by the disambiguation page. Gimmetrow 14:17, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Logos

• Why do the sports team logos keep getting taken off? 67.41.213.180 05:28, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Well . . . I can't speak for anyone else, but here's my opinion: . . . . . .

We need pictures to illustrate the text without swamping it. Personally I feel we have enough pics here already. (Although a more appropriate one for the symbolism section would be good.) For the modern history and modern usage parts of the text we have two 20th century flags (one might be enough), one pic from New Orleans illustrating the idea that the symbol is used in a variety of contexts, and the scouting pic as an example of a contemporary logo using the fleur-de-lis. (More of a worldwide logo than any sports team's.) We can't list every use ever of the fleur-de-lis, and we can't add a pic of all the thousands of logos and coats of arms with fleurs-de-lis. An encyclopedia has to summarise and select; articles are more reader-friendly if they're not "cluttered" with excess lists, pics or examples. --HJMG 15:19, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Brussels and the iris/fleur-de-lis

Hi, I think there's something missing about the iris as a symbol (fleur-de-lis). The official flag of the Brussels-Capital Region (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brussels-Capital_Region) is a golden iris with white border and blue background. More information on http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/be-bxl.html .

Anton muyldermans 06:02, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Kappa Kappa Gamma

I know nothing about editing sites on Wikipedia, but I wanted to point something out: the fleur-de-lis is the symbol of Kappa Kappa Gamma, the women's fraternity started in 1870. You can visit their site here.

VivenLeigh 21:39, 20 January 2007 (UTC)Vivien

Architecture and fleur-de-lis

Re the question in the edit summaries about the "hidden" section on architecture.

Someone else began this and I added to it, but then I started to doubt whether it would ever develop into a good section. It seemed difficult to make this more than a rather OR-ish list of architectural features which often use the fleur-de-lis in the design. Perhaps an architecture specialist could advise? --HJMG 09:36, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Question

Hello there, never have left a comment on Wiki, so bear with me...

In the symbolism/art/religion section I am a little confused. To my knowledge the fleur de lis was always the symbol for the iris. In the section in question there is a lot of mention about the iris actually being called the lily and its connection with chastity, purity and the Virgin Mary. It should be noted that in many early secular pieces the flower depicted in NOT an iris, but rather the white lily [or "Easter lily" if you prefer]. In my teaching, the white lily has always been the traditional symbolism for the Trinity, chastity, purity, and the Virgin Mary...not the fleur de lis. [See: the Merode Altarpiece by Campin, selections from the Book of Hours, etc.]

Does anyone know a little more about this? Are they interchangable symbols? Four years of art history and all I can muster is a pile of questions and confusion! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.83.133.248 (talk) 14:20 31 May 2007

Holy crap did I just singlehandedly wipe out all the other discussions? Oh no....if i did I am SO SORRY.165.83.133.248 14:33, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Defiance? New Orleans is defiant? I think this is somewhat less than objective. Who or what are they defying?

Borbon's monarchs and Fleur de lis

The Fleur de lis is a symbol of the old french monarchy. There is no succesor of this house in France as it is a Republic as everyone knows. So this symbol is owned by the Borbon's house and the only European Borbon monarch is the actual king of Spain, Juan Carlos I. So this means that Fleur the lis formerly was a french symbol, but since French Revolution this is only a symbol of Spain. So please correct this mistake as in fact actually Fleur de lis or Flor de Lis is a spanish symbol and no longer french —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.217.208.68 (talk) 12:06, August 24, 2007 (UTC)

What? 1000 years after the revolution, during the 28th century, if the monarchy is not (and most likely will not) be restored, nothing will change the fact that for a thousand years France was a monarchy that had, associated with it, the fleur-de-lis. So, yes, it is still an emblem associated with the French monarchy, irrespective of the Crown itself being defunct or not. Eboracum (talk) 16:55, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

To verify this statement please see modern flag of Spain #REDIRECT [[6]] and actual Spanish king "Juan Carlos I" and his heritage of Bourbon´s House. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Carlos_I_of_Spain#Patrilineal_descent

Can you please correct this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Manfin2005 (talk • contribs) 15:41, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

This is nonsensical. The Spaniard King is of French stock. The fleurs-de-lys on the dynastical scutcheon are French, not Spaniard. Anyway, Juan Carlos I uses as well the cross of Burgundy and the wreath of the Order of the Golden Fleece, one-time badges of the Dukes of Burgundy. Neither the Burgundian saltire nor the Golden Fleece are Spaniard, are they? And the Bourbons were restored to the French throne in 1814 and -after Waterloo- in 1815-1830. The Bourbons from Naples and Sicily were overthrown in more or less 1860. Is the fleur-the-lys a Neapolitan symbol?JUAN

"Blood lines", and defining fleur de lis on different levels. A royal symbolisme or not is not an issue. In the beginning it was a lily white for 3nity. and was adopted later by "royals" wanted to identify with Jesus and Mary and the holy 3nity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.48.108.78 (talk) 17:51, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Images

Due to the large amount of images in the article, especially in the "Royal symbol" section, neither Firefox or IE will display the page correctly. In Firefox the images sit over the text and in IE there is a large amount of whitespace. I thought at first it would be possible to shuffle them around but because they are used to illustrate parts of the article (as opposed to being pure decoration) that wasn't possible as the images ended up too far away from the relevant section. So I came up with a linkable table and how that works with this article can be seen here. The images stay close to the section they were in and are linked from the relevent portion of the text by the use of letters. I made all the images in the table 100px which enlarged some but did make the flags smaller, from 120px. At the same time this enables the other images in the article to comply with the MOS by removing the 150px setting. What does anybody think. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 21:04, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Sisters of Battle

aka Witch Hunters, from the game Warhammer 40000 use the Fleur de lis as their army symbol, along with a number of other religious iconography. Just a little note for keeping the iconography alive in modern times - NemFX (talk) 08:47, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

My error, deleting this. The information, such as it is, belongs at Warhammer 4000, where it's relevant, not here, where it's trivial.--Wetman (talk) 12:25, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

A Palestinian or Lebanese Muslim Badge?

My English is rather broken, sorry. I've seen in a newspaper or magazine a picture of two young Palestinian girls in Lebanon. They wore a veil, so that I surmise they are Muslim rather than Eastern Christian. One of them wore a yellow T-shirt with some mottoes in black Arabic script and what seems to be a huge yellow fleur-de-lys. Is there any Palestinian or Lebanese party or political group that uses the fleur-the-lys as its badge?????? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 10:02, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Eventually I've found out the answer: It's the group called 'Imam al-Mahdi Scouts', a Shi'ite youth movement sponsored by Hezbollah. That accounts for the yellow colour. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 10:33, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

"http://flags.skalman.nu/flags/lb}hezb.html"

Bourbons in Luxembourg????

Are you sure that the great duke of Luxembourg is a Bourbon as this article's text points out? Aren't the Luxemburgian dukes of Dutch stock? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 10:22, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

To the bowleriser

Delete what you like, but the Duke of Luxembourg is not a Bourbon! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 11:13, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I've made a gross mistake. The Luexemburgian dukes are of Dutch stock, O.K., but the last grat duchess married a Bourbon, so that the last two dukes (since 1964)belong on paper to a branch of the House of Bourbon. It's been my fault. I'm not acquainted with the current reigning and non-reigning european monarchies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 11:24, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

"bowleriser"?? —Tamfang (talk) 03:25, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Serbian Flag

I added the Serbian flag due to the fleur de lys on it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.99.63.191 (talk) 00:55, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Flag of Sandzak

please add this picture it has a fler de lis File:Coat of arms of Bosniaks in Serbia and Montenegro.SVG —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.129.22.184 (talk) 01:33, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

in US Army

2nd Stryker Cavalry Regiment (United States) --116.232.129.149 (talk) 09:54, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

partial reversion

Some of 70.127.91.175's recent changes are good but I disagree with some others.

• Moving "over the centuries" made the sentence flow worse.
• "monarchical remnants" is needlessly vague.
• "symbolic vocabulary of heraldry used by the Norroy and Ulster 'king' of arms" — No editorializing, please. The phrase "vocabulary ... used" implies that Norroy's designs use fleurs while other heralds' designs don't, which is implausible.
• "The Welsh poet, Hedd Wyn, used..." — The commas are appropriate only if Hedd Wynn is the only Welsh poet.
• Scouting needs to be capitalized if it refers to the youth organization rather than to scouts in a more literal sense.

—Tamfang (talk) 03:27, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

am I treading on Canadian toes?

IPA: [ˌflœː(ʀ)dəˈlɪs] in Quebec French

And it's likely pronounced yet another way in rural Provence. Do we care? —Tamfang (talk) 05:41, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

My French dictionary (Larousse) says it is pronounced the way it is listed here for Quebec.IPA: [ˌflœː(ʀ)dəˈlɪs]. The s on the end is pronounced. I have asked people from France and that is how they say it, that's how I was taught. Tom Hanks in the Da Vinci Code dropped the s off the end and said "flower of bed" a few times but that doesn't make it correct. -Crunchy Numbers (talk) 04:02, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

We learn something every day! Mine (Petit Robert) has /lis/, not /lɪs/; are you sure that your French friends rhyme it with hiss rather than with piece? —Tamfang (talk) 07:00, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes piece rhymes with it, thanks. My Larouse has /lis/ also. I wasn't too sure about the IPA stuff so thanks for catching that. I checked with some online dictionaries and the Webster pronounces it without the s on the end. Sad, but not the end of the world. We can do better. Here is a relevant article. http://villevoiceeats.com/2008/07/15/mr-language-man-how-to-say-fleur-de-lis/

Now that I think about it several French people I know can't pronounce hiss correctly but say heess. Hit becomes heat. Ironic that French people can't pronounce a French word the way this article had it.-Crunchy Numbers (talk) 15:32, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm not happy with /œː(ʀ)/; I wouldn't be too surprised to learn that there is a nonrhotic variety of French in which (as often in nonrhotic English) /Vr/ becomes /Vː/, but I think showing it /œʀ/ gets the message across even for such speakers. I'm simplifying it in the article. —Tamfang (talk) 04:18, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Very intersting article! However Lily and Iris not the SAME flower!

Very intresting article always wondered about the Fleu-de-lis symbol Howve being a Tyro Botanists Lily and iris two different plants!,flowers! Not the same as inferred in article!LibreAndreMoi (talk) 02:42, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Which passage, in your semi-literate opinion, implies that they are the same? —Tamfang (talk) 02:18, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Tamfang, which part of LibreAndreMoi's post said that he wanted you to make insulting remarks? Just because they read something into the meaning of a section of the article does not give you the right to denigrate them. I notice that, according to your user page, you speak several languages. You should therefore be aware that when someone is using their second language they may see words and phrases meaning something different to a native speaker, and that is how I saw LibreAndreMoi's comment. In fact even two native English speakers can put different meanings into the way words are structured. Enter CBW, waits for audience applause, not a sausage. 03:59, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

The epithet (which I was about to remove – sorry I was so slow in repenting it) was motivated not by the content of the question but by its orthography/punctuation. —Tamfang (talk) 04:03, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

English is my first language and I think the article could be read as suggesting that the iris and the lily are the same flower. 'A stylized lily or iris': well, which is it? To my eye, the fleur-de-lys is an iris, complete with standard and falls. It is NOT a lily.

choice of image

• 
  out with the old
• 
  in with the new

User:Adelbrecht "updated the image" by replacing the flat one with the shaded one. In what sense is this an update? Has ISO issued a new fleur-standardisée?

(I like the flat one, partly because its petals are more distinct, but I won't change it back without calling for opinions.) —Tamfang (talk) 02:44, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

The new version is used in the updated heraldic images of France and Spain by Sodacan (who created it) and Heralder. Adelbrecht (talk) 08:14, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

I am not particular about either image, but the flat one matches the symbols on the coat of arms of Bosnia, as well as the other images in the article. The one by Sodacan is actually very nice, too. Thank you so much for all your images! I love the ones you did for Iran (thankfully the pre-Islamic Republic symbols). Can someone point out the heraldic image for Spain? I'm either too tired or blind, but I do not see it. Now that I take a closer look, the new image matches the symbols on the French coat of arms in this article. Which image is more realistic? CreativeSoul7981 (talk) 14:20, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Heralder created a updated version of the coat of arms of Spain, using Sodacan's fleur de lis. But some people keep reverting the image, because they think it isn't official. I really don't know why they do that, because the composition is the same, it just has updated elements. Adelbrecht (talk) 14:49, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

I have actually thought about it, and now I think I like the new image. It has depth. But again, I don't really mind either way. I think Sodacan has done a nice job. CreativeSoul7981 (talk) 21:34, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Adelbrecht, I asked what you mean by updated, and then you used the word three more times without clarifying anything. Have the royal arms of France and/or Spain changed? — If Sodacan replaced a poor image of the arms, that's a good thing, but gratitude doesn't oblige us to prefer Sodacan's fleur everywhere. —Tamfang (talk) 22:00, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

If anything, the shaded fleur looks more "dated" to me than the flat one. —Tamfang (talk) 22:02, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

What do you mean by "dated?" If you mean it's a bit "old world," then I would think it fits quite nicely, since the symbol itself is ancient. But whatever everyone decides is fine. Does anyone think there should be consistency in which of the two symbols are used throughout Wikipedia? What are your thoughts? CreativeSoul7981 (talk) 05:57, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

In any case, I have recolored the older version of the Fleur de Lys. It looks a lot better now, I think. But I still prefer the version by Sodacan. Tamfang, what makes Sodacans version appear dated to you? Adelbrecht (talk) 12:07, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

It has a stiffness that makes me think ~19th century. —Tamfang (talk) 14:29, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Someone undid your recoloring, calling it Vandalisme. Better to make a new file anyway. —Tamfang (talk) 14:39, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Usage on Survivor: Nicaragua

This symbol is used as the la flor symbol in Survivor: Nicaragua.--68.39.95.3 (talk) 17:42, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Pronunciation

My understanding is that the majority of English speakers pronounce "lis" and "lee", but in French, at least, the pronunciation is more like "lease". This was brought up earlier on the discussion page. I imagine the issue of how to pronounce it in English will be a battle between those who believe we should use the French pronunciation and those who believe we should accept the new English pronunciation, but either way, the article should be modified to correct the "French pronunciation". I won't do it myself as I'm not an expert on French pronunciation or IPA. Kombucha (talk) 15:33, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

A footnote says it's /lis/ alone but /flœrdǝli/. Do you disagree? —Tamfang (talk) 23:29, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

I've had Quebecois people insist to me that the final "s" is always pronounced. Online, the author of villevoiceeats.com/2008/.../mr-language-man-how-to-say-fleur-de-lis/ insists the same, and dictionary.reference.com claims the French pronunciation is /flœrdəˈlis/. There's audio of the pronunciation at http://www.howjsay.com/index.php?word=fleur%20de%20lys&submit=Submit as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.84.116.37 (talk) 11:25, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Strangely, Tamfang seems to be using a different schwa than I am. I can't imagine why there would be two different schwas out there.

You mean the letter? My keyboard distinguishes ‹Əə› (modified ‹Aa›) from ‹Ǝǝ› (modified ‹Ee›). I think the former is used in some Turkic language, and the latter in some West African language. —Tamfang (talk) 04:59, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, see Ə. —Tamfang (talk) 05:05, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Another anonymous SUGGESTION

Can you get this page to redirect from "Bourbon Lily". I wanted to learn about the Bourbon Lily symbol that I found on some old glass vases - but had no idea that was called something completely different. From my initial investigation they are one and the same. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.200.90.204 (talk) 17:08, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

redundancies in the gallery

I'm going to remove	the arms of the Parliament of Canada	which contains fleurs-de-lis only because it incorporates	the coat of arms of Canada,	which is pictured elsewhere in the gallery. —Tamfang (talk) 19:56, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
	the flag of the province of Nova Scotia, Canada		the Scottish royal arms,
	the flag of the Lieutenant-Governor of Quebec		the coat of arms of Quebec,

I have taken out more. That section was never intended to be a gallery. Galleries should not be in the middle of the page but nearer the bottom. Here is how the page used to look with the images scattered about and mainly no near the article text that was discussing them. This is what I changed it to. The gallery was moved to the bottom of the page and the images in the "Coats of arms and flags" were linked to the text discussing them. To my mind it made it easier for the reader to click back and forth to see and read about the symbols. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 16:39, 7 May 2011 (UTC)