Talk:Fleur-de-lis

Image overload?

Is it just me or does this page have too many images? It could be that the images are too large and take up too much space, but even so. I understand that this is an article about a graphic, but I still feel that on the encyclopedia, meaningful prose is more important than abundant visual demonstration — after all, the latter is what Commons is for. Maybe some of the extraneous graphics could be cut out, and those remaining could be reduced in size where appropriate? Specifically, I think that there are too many coats of arms (outside the gallery) and too many pieces of artwork/etc. that simply happen to show the image. One or two for illustrative purposes seems like it would be sufficient. ~ Boomur [☎] 02:42, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

for reference, here (imgur) is a screenshot of part of the page from my computer. my screen resolution is the popular 1366 x 768; my browser window is at full size, but i've cropped out the toolbar, tabs, etc. i think it's a good example of "there are too many images here, where am i supposed to look?" ~ Boomur [☎] 02:47, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

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John Calvin was convicted for homosexual activity and thusly branded with a fleur-de-lis...

Heaps of references on the internet anent John Calvin being branded with a fleur-de-lis after being convicted for homosexual activity. The aforesaid should be at least byworded and furthermore the whyfors set out anent the fleur-de-lis being an onetime marker for homosexuality convictions.

"An interesting story: in 1527, the year he was 18, Calvin was arrested, tried, and convicted of homosexual activity. Instead of being executed (per French law at the time), he was branded with a fleur-de-lis on one of his shoulders" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.1.69.20 (talk) 00:15, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

John Calvin (John Cohen) was branded with a Fleur de Lys (symbol?) for (Satanic) offences against children not homosexuality. 2A00:23C7:2B13:9001:49BA:BD52:4A14:8B20 (talk) 10:59, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

I have found good RS presenting this as basically slander by Bolsec, a former associate who had fallen out with Calvin and returned to Catholicism, and who accused him posthumously and rhetorically of many "un-Christian" types of sexual behaviour. Calvin is accused to have comitted sodomy in Noyon in 1527 (age 18). See for instance following source, which accuses Bolsec of conflating events from the lives of at least two men from Noyon named John Calvin, with rumours and fiction, and explains his libellous accusations as a reaction to an over-the-top article by Beza, an apologist of Calvin's, who had exaggeratedly praised the reformer's supreme moral qualities.

This story is relevant in itself, as it indicates that branding with the f.d.l. was considered to be a very lenient alternative to the standard punishment for sodomy: being burnt at the stake.

Irena Backus. "Roman Catholic Lives of Calvin from Bolsec to Richelieu: Why the Interest?". Chapter: Jerome Bolsec, pp. 26-32 (see 27 last paragraph, 29-32). In Randall C. Zachman, ed. (2008). John Calvin and Roman Catholicism: Critique and Engagement, Then and Now. Baker Academic,

ISBN 080103597X. Accessed 25 Nov 2023.

I will now put this in. Arminden (talk) 14:30, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

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France Modern/Moderne

The article alternates, for no good reason that I can see, between the spellings "France Modern" (which seems unlikely, since ordinary French words - as opposed to a few proper names - don't end in -rn) and "France Moderne" (which is correct French). I don't know for certain which is right - "France Modern" may be acceptable in heraldic English, alongside "France Ancient" - but the spelling should surely be consistent throughout the article. The same inconsistency occurs in the article on "National emblem of France".213.127.210.95 (talk) 14:18, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

• Agreed. Care to take a shot at fixing it? Bindle-stiff (talk) 05:46, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Long lists of indiscriminate information

Much of this article currently appears to consist of long list of "...the fleur de lis appears in the... [insert symbol/ flag/ crest/ uniform] of [whatever/ whomever]." Wikipedia is not meant to be a catalogue of every instance of the occurrence of a thing, but a selective account of the most prominent examples of it. One thing this article does NOT need any more mentions of additional occurrences of this symbol anywhere in the world, and what it could really use is a paring down of the various lists of occurrences throughout so that it has only the most interesting and relevant ones. This is practically fancruft. Bindle-stiff (talk) 05:46, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Iris and Lily

It seems to me this is a mix of 2 symbols at least. There is a symbol of iris that is used in Florence for instance. - Iris Fiorentina. And there is a symbol of lily, that is used in i.e. Bosnia. - Lilium_bosniacum These are not the same flowers. They don't look the same in nature at all. see below https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilium_bosniacum https://www.intoflorence.com/history-giglio-florence/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.110.84.146 (talk) 19:36, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

... uess they are the same. It seems to me that the Marian symbol was first adopted by the French Capetians, and from their widespread dynasty it migrated all over medieval Europe, and later beyond. (To Florence probably via the French allies, the Ghibelins.) Local patriots tried to give their lily a local touch, see Quebec recently, but this apparently was a later evolution. Anyway, that's what I came to think, yours is an excellent observation, and I'm looking forward to other arguments. Arminden (talk) 13:39, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Odd introduction

I'm not a regular Wiki editor, but the intro on this looks very odd compared to much simpler 2018 version. Something that talked about the symbol first, and went into the history of the symbol in an early paragraph would be more readable. Grill (talk) 13:28, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

What does “ Iris compared with fleur-de-lis ornament in French” mean?

Under an illustration showing two stylised(?) blooms, it reads:

“ Iris compared with fleur-de-lis ornament in French”

What is the point of the aforeshown and what does the “in French” bit mean? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C7:9C97:5D01:ED5C:6880:E1A2:7637 (talk) 12:39, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Joinville

In Brazil, the city of Joinville has three fleurs-de-lis surmounted with a label of three points on its flag and coat of arms. Due to the city is named after François d'Orléans, Prince of Joinville, son of King Louis-Philippe I of France, who married Princess Francisca of Brazil in 1843.

The second quarter of the arms (and the arms are incorporated in full in the flag) is the arms of the house of Orléans, Azure three fleurs-de-lis Or, a label of three points Argent. This seems to me rather marginal; are there no better examples of a fleur-de-lis in Brazil? —Tamfang (talk) 19:53, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

On a related note, where is the best place to mention that fdl (or indeed the royal arms) appear in places formerly under French sovereignty, such as flag of Quebec and (one that I noticed today) coat of arms of Alabama? —Tamfang (talk) 21:23, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

French slave branding: Code noir

"In the 1685 Code Noir, based on Jean-Baptiste Colbert's legislation, slaves in Mauritius were branded with a fleur-de-lis when being punished for stealing food or escaping.

The fleur-de-lis (or flower de Luce) could be branded on slaves as punishment for certain offenses in French Louisiana. For instance, the Louisiana Code Noir (1724) stated: XXXII. The runaway slave...shall be branded with the flower de luce ...".

The Code Noir was an arrangement of controls received in Louisiana in 1724 from other French settlements around the globe, intended to represent the state's slave populace. Those guidelines included marking slaves with the fleur-de-lis as discipline for fleeing."

1. Colbert died in 1682. Is 1685 a typo? Was there an updated Code? Or was the Code introduced at different times in different colonies, for whatever reason?
2. Both in Mauritius & for Louisiana: was there a specifically adapted, local Code noir, or was there just one for all of France's territories? Was the Code ever updated and/or adapted for specific colonies?

Arminden (talk) 15:11, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

References

Origin in Europe: France! Needs more weight.

The history & chronology must be worked out, made clear in separate intro section. As far as I can tell, it spread throughout Europe & its colonies in 4 steps:

religious symbol (purity) -> French heraldic royal symbol (Capet) -> England & Scotland (claims to French crown) -> the rest of Europe & the colonies.

Right? Arminden (talk) 15:24, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Duby's interpretation

The sections re medieval France offer several more interpretations, all more plausible, with a plausible evolution, rooted in precise periods, and well referenced. Not clear to which period Duby is referring. He might not be relevant anymore to start with.

No URL, other details missing, cannot check what he actually wrote. Not OK at current standards. Arminden (talk) 16:04, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Bosnia: unsourced claim for local subspecies

"...often considered to be a representation of the autochthonous golden lily, Lilium bosniacum."

I have started a discussion also here: Talk:Lilium bosniacum#Refs don't support symbolic use. Possibly a modern patriotard overinterpretation. So far it's also unsourced.

Interesting in itself, as a probable example of "folk heraldry", similar to folk etymology. But then it should be discussed as such. Arminden (talk) 12:30, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

"Ref label" (8 of them, from a to h) - what for?

There are 8 such tags in the main section, elsewhere maybe more. What purpose do they serve? None of them works. If outdated, or pasted in from somewhere else: remove!

They are all set between double braces, showing as blue-coloured single letters between square brackets.

Look for

• Ref label|a|a|a -> shows as [a]
• Ref label|b|b|b -> shows as [b]
• Ref label|c|c|c -> shows as [c]
• Ref label|d|d|d -> shows as [d]
• Ref label|e|e|e -> shows as [e]
• Ref label|f|f|f -> shows as [f]
• Ref label|g|g|g -> shows as [g]
• Ref label|h|h|h -> shows as [h]

Arminden (talk) 12:45, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Holy Land origin theory

The lily appears on ancient coins from Yehud Medinata, fact, and it looks quite similar to the fleur-de-lis.

However, the theory that it was also used on medieval banners from Syria in the time of Saladin - that I couldn't find proof for, although it might well be true.

The claim that the first time it appears in a Western context is on a stone carving decorating the refectory of the Hospitaller commandery of Saint-Jean-d'Acre (Akko), making iy possibly the place where it was picked up and adopted by the French royal House of Valois-Anjou - that seems unproven. Timewise it's plausible. I don't know if the Acre f.d.l., or indeed the refectory, has been precisely dated. Was the hall built during the first Kingdom of Jerusalem, so before 1187, or during the second, Acre-based, in 1191–1291? See Hospitaller commandery of Saint-Jean-d'Acre#History: 1140s the earliest, with additions into C13. Can the carved f.d.l., placed at the base of a rib of the rib vault be dated? The generally excellent German Wiki article on Acre states that the two-nave ground-floor refectorium was built "starting in 1104", which might be just a supposition based on the general age of the oldest parts of the Hospitaller citadel and the fact that a dining hall was always needed, and adds that it probably served as an oldest model of all Gothic-style cross vaults. So we have either 1104, or post-1140: not quite the same - a typo? If the f.d.l. there is indeed from the very beginning of the 12th c., then it does predate its use by Louis VI and VII. Even the 1140s are early enough.

Heraldists and archaeologists, au secours!

PS: I have placed this question also at Talk:Lilium candidum and Talk:Hospitaller commandery of Saint-Jean-d'Acre, but hete should be the main discussion space. Arminden (talk) 15:41, 5 December 2023 (UTC)