Talk:Fan death/Archive 1

A Korean newspaper article on fan death

This wikipedia article somehow have recently started a dispute in the Korean Internet on fan death, and Yonhapnews wrote a newspaper article about it today. It would be a nice addition to the article. [1] It includes opinions of several Korean medical experts, most of which says there are no proof of the fan death. It concludes that autopsy of 'fan death victims' is required to know for sure. (Koreans usually are reluctant to approve an autopsy of their deceased family members.) 218.153.152.174 (talk) 04:02, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Newspaper Article

The article quoted here is now 10 years old, so not really representative of modern Korea. Is there some new evidence that could be included in its place? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.136.103.49 (talk • contribs)

This article still shows that in recent, modern times, this legend was reported even in newspapers. The article is dated in the main body, so readers can conclude if an article in 1997 is still valid to them. J.reed 07:52, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I talked to a friend who recently completed a year for Study Abroad in South Korea. He told me that yes they still believe in Fan Death. Navie05 (talk) 00:31, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

why is fan death reported?

I have done a lot of thinking about fan death (probably too much) and i have talked to many koreans about it over the last three and a half years that i have been in korea. I guess, for me, it started when i called it a superstition a while back and got an earful. I was, at the time, totally perplexed that they (Koreans) whole heartedly believed in fan death. Having been here in korea for as long as I have now, i am more understanding of Korean (and Asian) culture so i accept their belief in fan death as a cute little quirk.

It is a strange one. People believe some really stupid things, but this one nearly tops the list. I had slept in an enclosed room with a fan on for 15 years before I ever even heard of such a crazy thing. Hypothermia? Totally unfounded. It just goes to prove that not only Americans believe in such stupid things. ReignMan (talk) 02:26, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

I re-wrote this article because i felt it needed more information. And honestly, it was hard for me to re-write it and keep the sarcasm out. I was going to write a rebuttal to each 'reason' for fan death, but every time i started a sentence, i seemed to start it sarcastically. Sarcasm is not needed on wikipedia, so I didn't write the rebuttal. And I won't. I can't. I mean, how do you respond to: "The fan 'uses up' the oxygen in the room and creates fatal levels of carbon dioxide." and not sound sarcastic? Where does the oxygen go? Where does the carbon dioxide come from? Wouldn't plants in your house counter the effects of the fan? What about the fan in your fridge? or the fan in your computer (if you leave your computer on at night)?

I have done a lot of reading on the subject and i came a cross an interesting article that suggested that the media reports fan death as a way to hide suicides, especially amongst the young. korea has a bad enough problem with their young killing themselves and if every case was reported in the news...well, we all know that suicides have a way of snowballing. So, maybe their belief in fan death is a good thing. Masterhatch

Surely the people who are most affected by suicides are the people closest to the victim, who wouldn't need the press to tell them the cause of death?212.137.30.54

It's not impossible, but I don't think Masterhatch's worry is that the family members of the person who commits suicide goes commit suicide themselves. People who feel suicidal may become encouraged if they hear a lot about others commiting suicide. You know, I don't have numbers, but I'm certain that an amount of crimes, whether rape, robbery, murder, etc, are done by people who are inspired by things they've seen being done by others, perhaps on the news, or just something they've heard. Okay, coal burning suicides in motels-- there was I think a large increase in my area (I live near the Pearl River Delta) after a few suicides got media coverage, and, for a while, it became a big thing. See the connection? --203.218.197.237 15:32, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Thermo Dynamics

"Fans can cause hypothermia. As the metabolism slows down at night, one becomes more sensitive to temperature, and more prone to hypothermia. In other words, if the fan is left on all night in a sealed and enclosed room, it will lower the temperature of the room to the point that it can cause hypothermia."

This statement violates the Law of conservastion of Energy. If the fan is the only interaction between the system and the surrounds, a valid assumption in light of the statement "...in a sealed and enclosed room..." then the net result of the fans actions will be an increase in the total amount of energy in the room, which would result in a temperature increase (at a rate proportional to the fans energy output) rather than decrease. Fans do not have the effect of cooling a room, they only create airflow which increases the rate of convection from the hot body (the person) to the surrounds.

Well thats as close as I can come to explaining it with my own poor grasp of the topic, One might want to add it to the main article or something.

Thank you for you insight on this matter. If you want to add that information to the main article, you are quite welcome to. Did you know that Koreans also believe you can die from the air-conditioner in your car by the same method? I was always taught (I am not Korean by the way; I am Canadian of English decent, but i am living in South Korea) to close the car windows when the air-conditioner is on because if the windows are open, you let the hot air in. Koreans leave the windows of their cars open when the air-conditioner is on to avoid 'Fan Death'. This also applies to air-conditioners in houses. They make sure windows are open when the air-conditioner is on. Masterhatch

Wow, just wow. Korea is the black hole of logic. Haizum 11:42, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Nice generalization. Americans believe that if you pee in a public pool, the water will turn purple, and that if you tap a soda can, the soda won't explode in your face. You should check out Snopes.com some time, a warehouse of stupid (mostly) American beliefs. That doesn't reflect badly on America, everyone carries superstitions. I'm sure even you have them, you just don't know about it. That black hole of logic isn't sitting in America or Korea, just in the middle of your skull. Either that or you're just a racist, in which case there's no talking to you, so carry on.

For someone that apparently intensely dislikes generalizations, you sure made a large one. Most people don't believe urinating in public pools turns water different colors (also, it was a myth that originated from a supposed chemical to deter kids from urinating in public pools, yet does not exist). Snopes is not predominately American myths and superstitions, either (another generalization). --Sturmwehr 23:32, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Phenolphthalein

Smoove K 07:25, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, okay, the reason that fans cool one off in over-99-degree weather is because it makes your sweat evaporate more quickly, and this change of state is endothermic, cooling you off, even though it's hotter than your body temperature outside. Still, even if you were soaked, and in a windtunnel, you wouldn't get hypothermia if it was over 70 degrees out. But it would be cold.75.134.221.87 (talk) 02:58, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Fan Death in Kentucky?

My father, who was born in the late 1930's and raised in Central Kentucky, USA, definitely the "backwoods", has very similar beliefs about Electric Fans; he won't get very specific, but I've heard him say all my life that you shouldn't leave fans on all night or you would wake up dead. I have no idea what his reasoning is, but I think it is possible that this might not be a Korean - Japanese only myth.Paganize (talk) 08:21, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Myth or legend?

I think it is both a myth and an urban legend. I don't feel that there was a need to remove all the "myths" from the article. Intertwining the usage of "myth" and "legend" makes for an easier read (grammatically speaking). Using similies in an article is a good way to break up any monotany. Kokiri, I am not saying that your edit is wrong, I am just saying that it was pointless as it is both a myth and an urban legend. Fans can't kill and we all know that. Whether it is defined as a "myth" or an "urban legend" makes no difference as it is both. Masterhatch 15 July 2005

Myth has two major different definitions. Myth can be a story that people believe to be true based upon supernatural events and typically involving the creation of the world and dieties, or myth can simply mean "falsehood." As people very easily get the two definitions confused, and the first definition is not correct for this article, it is far better to use words with undisputed meanings. The fact that you are framing this conversation as myth or legend indicates that you are trying to use it in its folklore sense, in which case this is defnitiely not a myth. DreamGuy 17:23, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

I don't understand why you keep on calling it a myth when that is obviously in dispute. Why do you have to insist on writing from a western centric perspective? The facts should speak for themselves as indeed they do. Andrewrutherford 23:55, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I also don't agree with definitively labeling it an urban myth or urban legend. It's accurate to say some popular media accounts call it an urban myth, but those articles are primarily criticizing other popular media accounts that suggest it's real. There are many proposed medical phenomena that are disputed, such as Multiple Chemical Sensitivity, or used to be disputed, such as Crib Death or Sick Building Syndrome. Given the Korean government's support, and the lack of any scientific studies referenced here one way or the other, I think defining it as an urban legend is presumptuous. The existence of implausible explanations does not refute the validity of the possible syndrome. -Agyle 17:12, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Fan death with gun shot evident

Is it really common in South Korea for the media to report a fan death when a gunshot is evident? I can understand reports when the cause of death is cardiac arrest, alcohol overdose etc but when there is a gunshot???

Guns are extremely rare in the ROK. So I'm guessing "no." However, I'm not an expert on this topic. -- Visviva 14:23, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Sometimes when someone has a shameful or socially unacceptable death, such as suicide or the above mentioned alchohol poisioning and such, the media will blame fan death even when it is clearly evident that they were killed by some other means. It is possible for the death someone with a gun shot wound to be blamed on fans.

If this is true, then I think that this deserves a notable mention in the article. --Kuzaar^-T-C- 14:29, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I was recently discussing this via email with a friend, his (humorous) comments follow:

"The explanation of fan death is accepted by many Korean medical professionals. In summer, mainstream Korean news sources regularly report on cases of fan death, even if more likely causes (e.g. heart attack, ****gunshot****, alcohol poisoning) are evident."

I'll just say that again. GUNSHOT.

Note to self: never seek medical attention in S. Korea. "Please help, I've been shot!" "Yes, I see. We'd better check for fans!"

Easiest job in the world: S. Korean homicide detective. "Wow, he's got a knife right through his skull." "Yes, I see. But I don't think that's what killed him... aha! A fan! Well, off to the bar."

--Punkgeek 19:59, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Another case solved! Poorsod 20:57, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

• Does all this mean that John Lennon was a victim of fan death? 201.6.156.184 16:33, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

• • conspiracy!
  • Wow. Well done.

Pop media may just say "died of gun shot wounds," and this wiki article uses "cause of death" primarily in that informal sense. But in clinical terms, cause of death is a series of events which end in death, divided into proximate causes, immediate causes, and mechanisms of death. A gunshot wound might be the proximate cause, the mechanism might be cardiorespiratory arrest, and immediate causes of death might include contributory complicating factors (blood loss, lung collapse, etc.) So it's theoretically possible to include fan-related complications in a gun death. For a contrived example, if the victim lay in front of a fan blowing cold air after the gunshot, hypothermia could be listed as an immediate cause. In this frat hazing incident, "the cause of death was cardiac dysrhythmia due to electrolyte imbalance from water intoxication. A contributing factor was environmental hypothermia." It noted separately that the deceased was soaked in water, with 40 F degree air blown on him with window fans. So fans contributed, and were noted, but were not in the cause of death summary. -Agyle 20:10, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

"Beliefs"

For example, it might be explained that the fan lowers the oxygen level in the room while raising carbon dioxide levels, which could prove fatal to a sleeping person already weakened by hypothermia.

How exactly does a fan lower the oxygen level? if anything the circulation of air would raise it by drawing in fresh air. Or do they use combustion engine fans in Korea? Martin - The non-blue non-moose 08:20, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

The vortex blowing at my face reintroduces the CO2 I am breathing out. So it's a cycle, where I inhale my exhalations. Thus, my inhalations are high in C02, and low in O2. --Muchosucko 18:35, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

But the article is talking about co2 levels, not reintroducing breathed out co2. plus it is obvious that a fan will introduce new cleaner air by circulating it away. This is totally unscientific, it is ok to have an article about something unlikely and totally unproven, but to make claims based on some flimsy explanation to justify it is just silly. Martin - The non-blue non-moose 21:46, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

I think you are looking for logic in a article about senseless myth -- most myths are insane anyway. Almost everybody holds some beliefs that are "unscientific." This article should show what people believe, not adhere to "science." I have no objections to you editing the article to your liking. I think the ultimate goal is to represent the myth as it is percieved by those who believe it. Any change to the article that makes it better achieve this goal is a good thing.--Muchosucko 06:18, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

I guess you're right, I am too used to editting science articles. Martin - The non-blue non-moose 09:04, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

As stated above, the vortex isn't 'reintroducing' CO2 to your lungs-- as a gas, CO2 is part of a mix of elements in a solution... The vortex created by the fan is actually 'mixing' the air in the enclosed room constantly, thus making the air in the room more homogenous (like a spoon mixing a cup of milk and coffee). The concentration of CO2 at any point outside a person will most probably be lower than inside, so at most the fan will 'speed up' the process of the air regaining equilibrium (mixing the air coming out from you faster with the outside air). This actually would reduce the inhaled amount of CO2 per-breath, as air around the nose would have CO2 at equal concentration than on the rest of the room, instead of slightly higher (the normal but insignificant condition standing still in an enclosed room). --164.77.109.210 15:17, 24 November 2006 (UTC)user:guruclef

I believe that gases diffuse so rapidly in enclosed spaces that the fan would provide a neglible boost to co2 concentrations. it might confuse a mosquito trying to travel along a co2 gradient. gas diffusion is highly effective, considering that the molecules are traveling at great speed. thats why a small crack in a window frame allows o2 into a room and keeps one from suffocating. everyone back to chem class!Mercurywoodrose (talk) 18:20, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Category

Why is the fan death found in the category:logical fallacies? It certainly contains a few, but is not one in and of itself.

It really is more illogical then a fallacy, you're right... unless it's a good example of a specific fallacy? - matt lohkamp 11:34, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Spreading legend...

I added something about the legend spreading in the Far East because when I lived in China between 2000 and 2003 I was frequently warned of this phenomenon by local Chinese and told that they heard it was a big problem in Japan.

Some people mentioned Korea, but for whatever reason all the Chinese people I discussed this with seemed to think they were avoiding something that was wiping out large numbers of Japanese. One can speculate that this is some kind of nervous reaction to industrialization and the introduction of electric appliances to all aspects of life, but whatever the reason this legend is thriving in Beijing and at least known in Hong Kong.

That sounds very believable, but none of the sources cited mention this spread, and unless it can be supported by a reliable source, the claim should be removed. -Agyle 17:16, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I recently found out a Vietnamese acquaintance believes in it. She is in her early 40's and had been taught it her whole life. (in Vietnam) Keytud (talk) 03:25, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

According to what I heard

I am a Korean and lived in Korea for some 20 years. But I think there are not many people (at least close to me) attributing fan death to lowered 'oxyzen level' or 'room temperature' as mentioned in the belief section of this article. (We do learn the laws of thermodynamics in the high school.) The argument that I mostly heard is as follows: "A human body emits heat, hence the air near the person becomes warmer. But a fan disperses the warm air, thereby making the air near the body cool. If this continues, the body temperature becomes lower than it would be without the fan." As you know, it is how a fan works. Of course, the body temperature dropping is much milder than how many Koreans think; but it exists. So I think it is rather an exaggeration than a myth. --Acepectif 04:57, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Not to support the legend, but this is reasonable: see Wind chill. Thermo arguments get you only so far. Melchoir 18:17, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

As stated in Mythbusters on several occasions, most myths and urban legends have some a very minor dose of truth to them.--68.13.59.58 22:12, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

what we need is a korean version of mythbusters

Acepectif, the myth claims that death occurs when you have a fan running in a closed room. As your body releases heat and humidity (from perspiration) into the air immediately surrounding it, the effectiveness of its cooling mechanisms decreases (as you should know, the efficiency of heat transfer increases with temperature difference, and the efficiency of evaporation decreases with environment humidity). A fan counteracts this by moving the hot, humid air away from your body, allowing it to cool more efficiently. But the humidity and heat are not eliminated, they are simply displaced. Now let's consider the effect of having the windows open or closed:

• in a closed room, the hot air remains inside the room (we shall ignore the effect of thermal transfer by conduction through the walls, which is the same in both cases); thus, as your body (and, to a much smaller degree, the fan) releases heat into the room, its average temperature increases. This reduces the cooling effect.
• if the window is open, air is constantly exchanged with the outside environment, which is usually cooler than your body temperature of 36°C, especially at night: thus the excess heat dissipated by your body disperses in the outside environment, and the room's temperature does not rise (the same can be said of humidity). This mantains the cooling efficient throughout the night.

Therefore, even if the mechanism of "fan death" were the one you hypothesize, being in a closed room would be helpful (and not the necessary cofactor of death as the myth claims), and opening the windows would be the wrong thing do to. In other words, the actions of fan death believers are illogical and superstitious no matter how you look at it. --87.12.200.123 12:08, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

this article is hilarious! is it intentionally so?

I don't think so... 68.39.174.238 13:32, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

It's just the nature of the subject matter that makes it seem that way, I think. --64.132.163.178 13:35, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Myth/belief

Recently another editor and I have disagreed about whether it is proper to call it an urban legend/myth, versus a "reported phenomenon". Note that four of the five professional medical opinions, as stated in the article, approach it skeptically, in addition to Cecil Adams, a respected myth-discreditor at the Straight Dope (article available here). As such, it is dishonest to lend undue weight to the position that Fan Death is a real phenomenon that causes deaths, which is in turn a violation of WP:NPOV. If anyone disagrees, please communicate with me via my talk page. --Kuzaar^-T-C- 12:53, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Two of the medical opinions are by the same person: Dr. Lee Yoon-song, who said:

Korean reporters are constantly writing inaccurate articles about death by fan, describing these deaths as being caused by the fan. That's why it seems that fan deaths only happen in Korea, when in reality these types of deaths are quite rare.

Whether he thinks that fan death is a myth depends on what he means by "these types of deaths are quite rare" If he means that Fan deaths do happen but are over reported that would change the balance quite significantly, whereas if he means that deaths reported as fan deaths are quite rare it wouldn't. --211.114.49.1 06:52, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Even so, if you read the first quote carefully, note that he categorically disbelieves in the phenomenon of fan death, thinking that it is, at worst, a contributing factor to the death of people with far more serious problems. That is the reason that I strongly believe that the article should refer to fan death- that is, death for which the fan in the room is the primary cause- as an urban legend. --Kuzaar^-T-C- 12:27, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, also you can't say "this hasn't been proven not to exist, therefore is might/probably does exist" (which is the impression the article gave). Particularly when it is patent nonsense, that of course is my own POV of course. Martin 12:35, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

It must be tough for the believers who have a computer, my PC has more than 5 fans turning when it's on (CPU, GPU, Power, case, HD, DVD and external HD's have fans too) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.79.87.141 (talk) 12:58, 23 March 2007 (UTC).

We should call the mythbusters or something.  : ) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Abaac (talk • contribs) 17:09, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

"Expert" Dr. Yeon Dong-su

Why is this guy considered an expert? He appears to believe in fan death, and he doesn't understand that fans don't decrease the temperature. I'm going to add a little note, but I think he should be removed from the experts list.Rotiro

I believe i was the one who originally added him to the list. I did it as a counter balance. You may make fun of fan death and see how logically it is impossible, but talk to any korean who grew up in korea and they believe it whole heartedly and they actually become quite offended when someone refers to fan death as a "superstition" or "urban legend". Even the most intelligent, educated, and well rounded Koreans believe in fan death. Masterhatch 16:49, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi Masterhatch, about the Beliefs section that I changed and you reverted, I just wanted to clearly indicate that the beliefs are mistaken (regardless of how many people believe them). After all, the beliefs section clearly and logically debunks the 5 beliefs listed there. I think it's important to emphasize that these are not valid logical reasons to believe in fan death, so that the article doesn't perpetuate the myth. How about we leave the title of the section the same, "Beliefs", but I'll add a note or reword it a bit.Rotiro 23:19, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I have no problem with rewording, but i felt that adding "incorrect" made it sound POV. By leaving it at simply "Beliefs", it seems clear that we are not talking about facts. For example, it is a "belief" that breaking a mirror is seven years' bad luck. But we all know that it is not so and the word "belief" does not imply fact in this case. However you reword the article, keep in mind that it is not us (the editors of wikipedia) who are to determine whether fan death is real or not. State the facts in a NPOV way from both sides and let the reader make up his own mind. Masterhatch 23:26, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I guess "Incorrect Beliefs" was a bad idea. So how do you like it now? I added "these beliefs do not stand up to logical and scientific scrutiny", which is a fact, and one that I have tried to state neutrally. Rotiro 23:34, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Seems ok now :) Masterhatch 23:37, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I am trying to decide which is more absurd, this, or the notion that Koreans "need" kimchi because they (of all humans) lack a particular digestive enzyme, and the spicy kimchi helps do the same job.Isaac Crumm 04:59, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I removed his quote because the cited page [2] actually states that Dr Yeon denies saying it. I tried to find if he said something similar in Korean news but I couldn't. 218.153.152.174 (talk) 18:03, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Timer

Is there any evidence that the point of a timer is to prevent fan death? I'm not Korean and I wish my fan had a timer because I only want the fan to cool me as I try to go to sleep; I don't want it wasting electricity all night. 61.69.246.171 22:42, 4 November 2006 (UTC) I am an American living in Korea for over a year and I have been told on many occasions that the timer was to make sure someone would not be in "harms way" if they fell asleep with the fan on. July 9, 2007, the news reported another death by fan. The victim was a 60 year old woman. Those who believe this urban legend usually refuse to justify how it happens. If a doctor says it's true, Koreans don't ask questions. I recently went to the hospital with the flu and the doctor was offended when I asked him what was in the shot he was about to give me. The Korean with me told me not to ask questions. I left without getting a shot.

Please correct the citations for the experts.

The several quotes from "experts" should be removed from the article unless they are cited to a verifiable and reliable source. Apparently all the quotes are from one online newspaper article. As presented, it looks like only one expert is attributed to the article and the other quotes are just hanging there unattributed, which makes them look like personal communications to the editor or original research. In any event, one newspaper article is not sufficient support for an article about something which appears to be physically impossible.Edison 16:29, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

You seem to be under the misapprehension that this Wikipedia article is presenting the idea of fan-death as fact. It is definitely an urban myth. Any citation required only needs to verify that it is, indeed, an urban myth. It's quite obvious that it's impossible. Some more cross-linking to science article would be good though.Poorsod 21:01, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Poorsod's assessment. That it garnered mention in a mainstream article at all should be evidence that the phenomenon exists. --Kuzaar^-T-C- 21:45, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Air conditioners, 여관, hot weather, death, MBC 뉴스데스크

I distinctly remember a case in the August of 2001, if I am not mistaken. A standard 3 minute report by a male reporter on the 9 PM MBC뉴스데스크 related the stark details of a man who stayed in a 여관 room by himself in Gyeonggi-do. He fell asleep and died after having left the air conditioner on all night. I distinctly remember the tone of the report -- quite shrill and alarmist. The air conditioners are coming to get us, was the long-and-short of it. For some time I thought it was all tickety-boo and never gave it a second thought until I saw the 'collaboration of the month' news. A few of my leftist friends in Busan think that reporters at MBC, KBS, and SBS deliberately recycle such topics every summer on slow news days. It shows that even those who have training in critical thinking can be fooled simply because it is the 'infallible' and 'trustworthy' major media outlets of Korea that report such clap-trap. Mumun 21:15, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Could you please keep the use of hangeul to the Korean language pages. '뉴스데스크' means 'Newsdesk' and '여관' is 'yeogwan'; a kind of cheap and often unsanitary Korean inn. Rianteacher (talk) 08:10, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

weasel word statements

It seems that there are some 'weasel-words' in the article, which may detract from communicating ideas properly. It seems that there is a task before us here to reword or re-express some ideas in the article without the statement "It is believed". I guess when they state "it is believed..." the authors are telling us about the main assertions of those who believe in something that apparently doesn't exist. However, let's try and reword the "it is believed statements..." so that they aren't weasel-worded. Mumun 22:23, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I will attempt to phrase the mentioned section in the active voice instead of the passive and remove the weasel words tag when it's done. Let me know if you have any further concerns re: this article here or on my talk page. --Kuzaar^-T-C- 15:15, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Looks good to me. Thank you Kuzaar!! ^^ -- Mumun 12:58, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Chinese connection

I stumbled across this entry and it's the first I've heard of it, probably because I don't know anything about Korean culture. However, I do know a bit about Chinese culture and I can tell you that it's not uncommon in China for people to claim that leaving a fan on in your room all night long is not healthy. Kill you? I haven't heard that extreme, but definitely unhealthy to the point that you'll get sick because of it. Thus I wonder if there is some connection to traditional Chinese medicine. Obviously this would be an extension of a traditional belief since the personal electric fan hasn't been around for more than a 120 years or so.Kongjie 00:03, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

It would not surprise me- I know that a the nature of cultural and popular beiefs causes them to spread over the winds of rumor and legend. It might very well have something to do with Chinese traditional medical beliefs, that might be an angle worth investigating. --Kuzaar^-T-C- 14:33, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

One of the least entertaining theory I have is that when several cases of child death was reported in Japan from early days of "air conditioner", someone in South Korea messed up the translation and reported or spread by word of mouth that "electric fan" caused death. Early home air conditioners had a tendency to overcool small area while doing little to cool a room. This caused numerous cases of death in Japan to infants and old people when their body cooled too much. When the home air conditioner became widely available in Japan, it was still a luxury item in South Korea so there was a ground for misunderstanding.

As a case in point, in Chinese restaurants in Hong Kong, the room temperature is cooled to very low, like less than 20 degree centigrade, because many belives that colder the room, more hospitable it is. Japanese travel guides specifically warn those going to Hong Kong to be "frozen" in restaurants. It wouldn't make sense for local Hong Kong citizen to be not aware of Chinese culture, if that's the source of rumor. --Revth 06:06, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

This is a joke right? No way anybody could believe this crap.

"Electric fan cold" seems to have been an accepted diagnosis when fans were new in America. google news archives -Agyle 17:45, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

To get sick because of a electric fan rotating the whole night is not a legend or rumor, this may lead to get a cold. But that's something quite different to the fan death legend. B.Mixa, 28.02.08; 17:10 CET —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.237.187.19 (talk) 16:11, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

No, it will not. Even being naked in the middle of a snowstorm will not cause a cold, as it has nothing to do with temperature. 213.167.158.254 (talk) 16:38, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Of course, there is little scientific evidence, but whenever I leave the airconditioning on at night, my parents and/or grandparents always warn me that I should make sure the wind does not blow directly in my face when I sleep, or else I will develop a condition known as "歪嘴" (bent-mouth?), where my facial nerves will become damaged and my face will permanently be in a slant-mouthed expression. I don't actually believe it to be the case though. I think it's all urban myth. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 14:30, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Hypothermia "debunking"

The article says:

That fans cause hypothermia. As the metabolism slows down at night, one becomes more sensitive to temperature, and thus supposedly more prone to hypothermia. If the fan is left on all night in a sealed and enclosed room, believers in fan death suppose that it will lower the temperature of the room to the point that it can cause hypothermia. Empirical measurements will show, however, that the temperature in the room does not fall, at least not due to the fan; if at all, it should rise slightly because of friction and the heat output of the fan motor, but even this is generally not significant. Fans actually make one cooler by increasing the convection around a person's body so that heat flows from them to the air more easily, and by the latent heat of vapourisation as perspiration evaporates from the body. Furthermore, hypothermia occurs only when the body's core temperature drops below normal, and will not generally be caused simply by cooling of the skin or decrease in the body's surface temperature.

This lesson is thermodynamics is a red herring. The mechanism by which fans cool the body is not that important. They do cool the body. Cooling the body too much leads to hypothermia. The bit about core temperature versus surface temperature is another red herring - low core temperature is reached by lowering the surface temperature. Under some (perhaps contrived) conditions a fan could be a contributing factor to a death by hypothermia. Debunking should focus on showing that those conditions are unlikely (people don't run fans in very cold rooms etc.). Haukur 17:17, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for discussing ^^. I agree with the tenor of your argument. Some of the material in the above text is unnecessary and perhaps a lengthy explanation of hypothermic processes detracts from the article. However, getting rid of the whole thing without a short explanation of why hypothermia is unlikely. --Mumun 無文 09:58, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Haukur, check my reply to Acepectif in the section "According to what I heard" above. --87.13.254.212 10:48, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Dead link in references

I found the first link at the references section is dead. I can't seem to edit it properly though. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Namitsu (talk • contribs) 14:42, 21 April 2007 (UTC).

logical conclusions

These arguments should urgently be added to the text:

Even when there is a statistical relationship between dying and having the electric fan on, this does not imply that the fan causes the death. The situation resembles strongly the old joke about the alcoholic who claims: "I must have a leather allergy... Every times when I wake up in my bed and still have my boots on, I have such a headache..." People those are sick or old enough to be about to die, tend to have problems with their body heat regulation or fever, i.e. they either chill or sweat in situations where healthy people won't. Thus deadly sick people those sweat turn on the fan as a last relief before they die. It would be certainly easy to find exactly the same statistical relationship between dying and using a hot water bottle or drinking a lot of hot or cold beverages before dying in bed. Lethal sickness makes people do such things before dying, not vice versa.

See e.g. here: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0370-1662(1904)73%3C361%3AARITHR%3E2.0.CO%3B2-8

Plausible is also that the origin of the myth may have been propaganda of the North Korean dictatorship to make the people save electricity, because electric power is extremely scarce in North Korea by the lack of intact power stations.

See e.g. these notice to get an idea how poorly their electricity network works:

• http://www.guardian.co.uk/korea/article/0,,890907,00.html
• http://www.ieee.org/organizations/pes/public/2006/nov/pesindustrynews.html

I wouldn't consider this plausible. Yes, the North Korean electric grid is a wreck, like everything else there. However, the idea that the majority of South Koreans (public health officials included) would be so influenced by Northern propaganda stretches credulity.Yak99 (talk) 21:54, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm as skeptical about conspiracy theories as the next guy - but the apparent fact that so many south koreans believe this stretches credulity much moreso then the idea that it's fear-inducing government propaganda, disseminated through news media. - matt lohkamp 11:41, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

In ancient Chinese and Japanese mythology the (manual) fan symbolizes things like authority and command or divine power, and only royals had the power to own slaves or servants to get fanned by them even during night. Thus it would make sense that in former times kings spreaded the superstition that it would bring bad luck when subordinate persons arrogated to let themselves fan during night, which was considered a violation of their power symbol code (much like when a citizen would come in mind to wear a crown without being the king). Later this superstition may have been tradited to the electric fan.

See e.g.:

• http://www.albany.edu/~cl3158/isp361/history.html
• http://www.uwsp.edu/ia/pwilliam/Background.htm

Alas, Wikipedia is not a place in which you can publish your original research as per WP:NOT. Please refrain from re-inserting the original research because such action is considered vandalism. Mumun 無文 11:06, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

If you can find reliable sources that make claims like this, you can include it in the article attributed to them. Otherwise you can't include it because of our original research rules. (However, re-inserting it would be edit warring, not vandalism. We have a very strict definition of vandalism, and the term should not be used lightly.) — Omegatron 14:53, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Ah, but the anon. IP has inserted the same or similar material on more than one occasion. This calls into question the good faith of the anon. IP. Reinserting material over and over IS vandalism because we have asked more than once for citations etc to no avail. Omegatron should check WP:Vandalism before attempting to instruct other well-meaning editors who are trying to do the right thing and are practicing WP:GF. Thank you. Mumun 無文 17:34, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Similarly, "good faith" doesn't mean "trying to follow the rules". "Good faith" means "trying to improve the article", even if they're going about it all wrong. Editors can revert war and be quite disruptive while still acting in good faith. It's only vandalism if they're making malicious edits meant to make the article worse: "Any good-faith effort to improve the encyclopedia, even if misguided or ill-considered, is not vandalism." - Wikipedia:Vandalism

Vandalism is not NPOV violation, stubbornness, or unintentional misinformation. Please don't misuse the term. How many times have you seen a 3RR violator cry "but I was just reverting vandalism!", when they were really edit warring?

Reinserting material over and over without providing citations is edit warring, not vandalism. — Omegatron 22:02, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Claim: "Koreans" a weasel word?

I have seen no evidence that any group of people other than those that live in Korea and who believe in this urban legend hold the belief that it's dangerous to sleep in a room with the fan on. As such, I've removed the weasel words template from the specific mention of "Koreans" and replaced it with a more specific phrasing, per above. --Kuzaar^-T-C- 12:52, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I noticed recently that an editor reverted my removal of the weasel words template on the Fan death article. If you read further in the article, one may note several reliable sources- namely, the cited doctors and The Straight Dope, that say that Koreans (in the doctors' case, Korean media and reporters) believe and/or propagate the urban legend. Those two sources on their own make for a solid claim. --Kuzaar^-T-C- 13:50, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Please list some doctors or reporters (or anyone) who "have suggested that their unique physiology renders them susceptible to fan death". — Omegatron 15:17, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

A source, one which is already included in the article, states the claim which is made in the article. Read here. No reliable source suggests the claim you make (that Koreans have a unique physiology), but there are numerous reliable sources that assert that some Korean people believe that claim, which, when writing about an urban legend, is the primary factor in considering inclusion of the claim that people believe it, which is what the sentence in question claims. --Kuzaar^-T-C- 16:18, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

I reworded this a bit, attributing it to The Straight Dope website run by the newspaper Chicaco Reader, rather than Cecil Adams, as Adams is thought to be a pseudonym; a footnote was already there, so a reader could check it out, but I think this makes the origin of the claim clearer. I also changed part of the sentence to a direct quote. I think the way the Straight Dope article phrases it is less conetentious, "some locals" (i.e. some Koreans) suggests it could be a fringe belief within Korea, whereas just saying "Koreans" without the "some" makes the belief sound somewhat widespread. It may or may not be widespread, but with Adams as the only source, I think it makes sense to use that language. I also removed the part about Korean descendants outside Korea not dying of fan death, as that needs a source...I am a skeptic of the basic premises of "fan death," but such a claim still needs a reference. -Agyle 21:28, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Fans with sleep timers

I lived in Korea for about a year, and never saw a fan with a sleep timer, and the fan I bought didn't have a sleep timer.. also, the adults working at the school I taught at didn't believe in fan death, although they all spent 10+ years living abroad, and I never talked to anyone else about it

Anyway, I think we should get rid of "Fans manufactured and sold in Korea are equipped with a timer switch that turns them off after a set number of minutes, which users are frequently urged to set when going to sleep with a fan on." from the first part of the article

I don't know about the switches, but they are sold with warning labels. You can see one here.--ThreeAnswers 12:51, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I added a source earlier today from a Korean consumer safety agency, which advises using fan timers. From that, I think one can safely claim that some fans sold South Korea have timers, which users are urged to set when going to sleep with a fan on. The source would not support that it's "frequently" urged, or the implication that all fans manufactured or sold there have timers. That may all be true, but the current sources to not support it. -Agyle 05:34, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

From Polynesian "wind?"

As an Asian, I was always told not to sleep with the window open as the wind might paralyze and kill you - of course, I pretty ignore that "advice" even at 14 weighing and rejecting that as nonsense.

But I think it might be from Polynesian or South Asia countries where people might tend to sleep outdoors (before air conditioning of course) and that some ill wind might paralyze or kill you ... perhaps related to hypothermia - that while you might fall asleep when it's warmer but then if the air temperature drops?

Isn't there some medical condition related to stiffening of joints or muscles from wind?

I think the fan thing is just an extension of that - I know some people defintely do not like a steady wind blowing towards their stomach. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jbelkin800 (talk • contribs) 22:41, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

No, there is no such condition. Gazpacho 09:02, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

First of all, yes, there is such a condition. Moving air has a lower pressure than still air. Drops in the pressure of air have a well known reputation for causing soreness even in western countries; so well known in fact that the Far Side comic strip has even parodied the phenomenon of "Storm's a coming, knee is acting up again". Second, its doubtful such symptoms would produce the death-in-sleep that represents the phenomenon in question in this article. Also, if a fan was blowing effectively yet intermittently enough to enough to produce changes in pressure sufficient to cause joint pain, the result effect would likely be insomnia due to an instinctive urge to seek a better shelter from the winds!Zaphraud 01:31, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Spores, dust inhalation, or Toxic mold?

There have been confirmed deaths as a result of building mold in the United States. While this is the first time I recalling having heard of anything exactly like "fan death", it doesn't seem entirely illogical to suppose that if one were living in a dwelling that had mold conditions similar to those in build that have killed, the use of a fan in that enclosed area could perhaps make the exposure worse. A website that actually addresses the issue of "fan death" directly has many far-fetched suggestions like hypothermia (in an enclosed room?), spirits, and vacuum over the face due to moving air (!) O_o so I am going to guess that not a lot of serious scientific attention has yet been paid to this subject... but sleeping close to the ground, and a fan close to the ground preventing the settling of dust could also result in increased inhalation of particulate matter. The chemical irritants present in a building with toxic mold cause a variety of health issues.

"Valley fever" is particularly well known here in Arizona to be the result of breathing in the crud in the air on a dry, dusty, windy day. The Santa Ana wind in California also once had a similar reputation with the Spanish colonists. Considering the effects of certain windy weather patterns and the effects of certain types of indoor pollution are well known, its very easy to see how there may be a tiny nugget of truth at the bottom of the larger myth that needs to be studied. Zaphraud 01:12, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

The reasons we've used the "timer knob" function of electronic fans or air conditioner

I'm a South Korean, and my family also has used the function in summer nights. However, it's not because of the only "fan death" belief. My family uses the function because of not only "fan death" belief but also other various reasons:

• to prevent to be sick with air-conditioningitis (냉방병; 冷房病)
• to save electric charges: When we already fell asleep in usual summer night, although fans are turned off, we can sleep comfortable continually if the windows are opened (except abnormally hot night).

I want to ask you not to think a "timer snob" of Korean fans as "just" a equipment to prevent "fan death". ― 韓斌/Yes0song (談笑 筆跡 다지모) 07:16, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

• What is "airconditioningitis"?
• How expensive is electricity in South Korea? (This is not a rhetorical question.) — NRen2k5^(TALK), 14:48, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

No offense, but sounds to me like "air-conditioningitis" is just another made up condition. --86.135.87.199 (talk) 02:23, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/elecprii.html Electricity Prices for Industry (U.S. Dollars per Kilowatthour) United States 0.061 - Korea, South 0.065 --Random832 (contribs) 16:32, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

A google search for "냉방병" seems to turn up at least a few sites that identify the disease so named with Legionellosis, which according to the article, can be associated with air conditioning systems in some cases (not, however, in a way that makes sense to jump from there to fans). --Random832 (contribs) 20:43, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

The Real Cause of "Fan Death"

This is where having to make sure that everything is sourced to the hilt is a major draw back. It's obvious to me why the South Korean government promotes the notion of "fan death". Its to save electricity. The entire Korean peninsula has huge energy needs and rather limited production capacity. While this seems obvious, its difficult to find a specific source to back it up. Can anyone find one?

supersoulty (talk) 06:50, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm curious if anyone has considered ozone possibly being produced by a low-quality fan's motor brushes in an enclosed environment... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.113.238.183 (talk) 06:44, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

There is strong evidence that sleeping in a tightly sealed room can lead to death, whether there is a fan in the room or not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.215.115.31 (talk) 22:50, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

What I don't get is... why would you ever run a fan in a closed room? I don't know what the weather is like in Korea, but if I'm running a fan in a Minnesota summer, its because its 80-100F outside, and even hotter inside, with upwards of 98% humidity. All my doors and windows are wide open in a desperate attempt to circulate cooler air in from outside and force hot air out. A closed room is only going to get hotter and more humid due to your body heat, humid breath and profuse sweat, not to mention the heat the fan motor is making... The only reason I'd have a room in any way closed is if there is an air conditioner, and that's another matter entirely. "Air conditioner death" is at least vaguely conceivable, seeing as it is actively lowering the temperature of a room. A fan alone can only equalize temperatures, and in fact will always raise temperatures due to the motor. If anything, Hyperthermia is a more likely cause of death... 64.83.197.250 (talk) 05:25, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Patents

US Patent 6006524

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6006524/description.html

"When an electric fan or air conditioner is kept operating during the time of sleeping, the user may suffer from evaporation of moisture from the body and drop of the body temperature and thus may be taken with an airconditioningitis or cold. When an electric fan or air conditioner is operated for a long time, it may cause oxygen defiiency in a narrow and closed room, claiming the life of the person sleeping in the room."

Interesting that this nonsense made it into the patent system. 72.138.38.71 (talk) 21:53, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

• Happens all the time... - Skysmith (talk) 07:43, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Polling data?

Is there any polling data indicating what portion of South Koreans actually believe this? --YixilTesiphon ^Talk_Contribs 17:07, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Statistical significance

The official warning states that 20 persons have died from "fan death" during two years in South Korea. That is just not significant - I think the tea cosy death rate is higher ... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tobixen (talk • contribs) 20:51, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Speeling

Under beliefs bullet point 6 should loose be lose? (219.89.70.24 (talk) 21:41, 11 January 2009 (UTC))

Esquire Coverage

I just heard that the January 2009 issue of Esquire had a blurb about fan death. Can anyone confirm this? --Zenpickle (talk) 17:23, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, it was from an oversea student learning about the fan death myth while staying with a foster family in South Korea or something like that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.13.101.85 (talk) 23:09, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Hyperthermia research

Research suggests that fan use may be a contributing factor in heat-related deaths such as fatal cases of hyperthermia.

No way. This is deceptive, the linked article [12] barely even mentions fans and absolutely does not name it as a contributing factor (although it mentions many). Instead a CDC comment on the article states that "fans may not prevent hypothermia". A very different thing. In any case only four cases are described and only two of them mentioned fans. It would be silly to treat these as data points and sillier still to draw any conclusion from them. Not to mention that if you were you would be better off claiming a protective effect - that fans prevent heatstroke death. Since during a heat wave the number of people using fans is likely to be much greater than 50%. Ergo the population of "surviving fan users" would be much larger than that of "surviving non-fan users". Anyway it's nonsense to claim that this usefully talks about fans or fan death.

Texts on industrial hygiene and ventilation will describe conditions when the use of a fan will increase a worker's heat load. Those conditions include very high temperatures found in foundries and similar industries like heat treating metals. Similar problems occur with high heat and high humidity.

Cite needed here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.248.171.144 (talk) 01:16, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

I have read the supposed sources and found no support for claims of hyperthermia caused by fans. I have deleted the false or misleading portions of the section. A fan can make one hotter if the ambient air is both hot enough (>99F / 37C) and the humidity is high enough that evaporative cooling is ineffective. Otherwise having a fan will cool a person by convection and evaporation. Unless the air temperature is quite low (<65F) and there is insufficient cover hypothermia is impossible. The sources cited in the deleted section show that sick (esp. hypertensive and congestive heat failure) and elderly people may be more heat sensitive than others, but do not show that fans are not helpful in cooling overheated bodies which are not dehydrated and are capable of producing sweat. There is absolutely no scientific doubt nor room for doubt that "fan death" is a complete myth. The myth likely arose from the real danger of carbon monoxide poisoning from charcoal heaters in early/mid 20th century Korea and was generalized by ignorant people to all sorts of climate control devices. Enon (talk) 04:54, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

• Good work. Probably the text was added by somebody who believes so strongly that they felt that justification had to be added to the article. Abductive (talk) 05:15, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

The claim that the JAMA article in any way supports the notion of fan death seems to have been reinstated. I've changed this. IrregularApocalypse (talk) 20:34, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, check out the EPA's Excessive Heat Events Guidebook, and especially "Appendix B: Use of Portable Electric Fans During Excessive Heat Events". I quote:

• "Because of the limits of conduction and convection, using a portable electric fan alone when heat index temperatures exceed 99°F actually increases the heat stress the body must respond to by blowing air that is warmer than the ideal body temperature over the skin surface (American Medical Association Council on Scientific Affairs, 1997; CDC, 2004c)." (p. 37)
• "Portable electric fans can, however, increase the circulation of hot air, which increases thermal stress and health risks during EHE conditions." (p. 49)

Let's not be too quick to dismiss the potential health risks here. --Avenue (talk) 11:06, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I went ahead and promoted the hyperthermia content nearer the top of the page, as I believe it is credible. Which is correct, 90°F or 99°F? Certainly the latter makes sense, as it is above normal human body temperature. The former is uncomfortable, but will a fan actually make it life-threatening? I think it is important to state (briefly and concisely) the lifesaving biological fact ahead of the entertaining urban legend. I couldn't figure out how to link to the bookmark further down the page where this issue is already discussed. Yak99 (talk) 20:18, 7 May 2011 (UTC)yak99

Why is there even a rationale?

This article has some far fetched "theories" as to how a fan might kill someone. Totally false. This myth has absolutely no foundation in truth. I've slept with a fan on for 15 years now, and I've never died from it. I know many, many people who also do this, and none have died. There is none, 0, zip, zilch, nada fact involved, and that should be pointed out more clearly. The conditions in which a fan might actually lead to death are so extreme, and so unusual, that the person would die without the fan at all. ReignMan (talk) 02:32, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

I lived in Korea. And I agree 100% with you. But trust me, try talking to a Korean about it. No amount of logic works. They believe it because the media reports it. The government reports it. Their doctors report it. They even teach it in school. It goes as far as when they are driving with the fan on in their cars (AC or heater), they open the car window a crack. I was working in an office in the heat of the summer and they would have the AC on full with the office windows open. Masterhatch (talk) 04:22, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Yup, there is a similar situation in parts of China. It is literally like telling someone that gunshot wounds aren't a health concern; the conversation is not going to end untill:

a) you give up and promise to take caution with fans or b) they decide you suffer from some kind of retardation or mental problem 213.167.158.254 (talk) 17:07, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Human tendency to wake up

"Furthermore, atomic oxygen is highly reactive and would produce sharp-smelling ozone, if it was produced by some mechanism. It also ignores the nearly universal human tendency to wake up while being suffocated in a moment of sleep."

I find this statement too sweeping. Mammalian breath rate is regulated by CO₂ levels, not by (low) O₂ levels. It is therefore plausible that high CO₂ levels can wake you up due to your own heavy breathing, I guess, but I don't see any reason why low O₂ levels would do the same. - Soulkeeper (talk) 22:46, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

This article gives too much credibility

I don't think this article accurately reflects how ridiculous fan death is. This is the country that houses leading high tech corporations like Samsung and LG, and they widely believe that falling asleep with a fan on will kill you. Subbevil (talk) 19:43, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Hypothermia

The section I removed and Vou replaced, discusses research on fans and deaths. It does not discuss Korean phenomenon of "fan death." This is a subtle but important distinction. This article about a belief that fans can kill someone if left on while they are asleep, the research I deleted is about the effectiveness of fans at cooling the body and has nothing to do with the belief that fans can kill. To use it in this article is original research. --Daniel 15:26, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Fan Death Legitimacy

There is NO scientific evidence that disproves the idea of "fan death." I think the stance that it is absolutely an urban legend is an opinion, not fact. Therefore, to avoid bias, the article should stop referring to it as an urban legend. Also the viewpoints of the EPA and Korean government should NOT be suppressed in favor of the dominant public opinion from non-Koreans that fan death is absolutely false. There is no evidence it's absolutely false and there is evidence that supports fan death has scientific basis. So it absolutely MUST at the very least be treated as an "opinion" rather than fact that it's false. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stupaddaso (talk • contribs) 07:30, 28 October 2011

There is no scientific evidence that disproves lots of made-up ideas, and the recently added United States EPA Position section is not compliant with the WP:DUE policy because the EPA has no position on the topic of this article. Johnuniq (talk) 09:31, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

The EPA section is also a violation of WP:SYNTH. The EPA doesn't mention fans killing anyone or the concept of "fan death." --Daniel 14:21, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

There is nothing to disprove that Koreans (and ONLY Koreans) are being eaten by snotmonsters that steal the air out of a room whenever a fan is on either. Does not make it real. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.75.61.245 (talk) 06:50, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Unverifiable "beliefs" content lives on Talk page now

I see the "Beliefs" section has been tagged as containing original research for about 10 months now. I let the very few beliefs with inline references remain, but I have moved beliefs lacking verifiability here for now:

• The fan overheats after it has been left on for too long, and ceases to cool the room, instead causing the already sweltering heat to increase uncontrollably until the person dies from it. The rational explanation is that during extreme heat waves, a number of people are going to succumb to it (older or sick people), and the existence of a running fan in the room they have died in is merely circumstantial.
• That a significant part of breathing occurs through the skin (false), and that the fast moving air from a fan makes "skin breathing" more difficult.* That an electric fan creates a vortex, which sucks the oxygen from the enclosed and sealed room and creates a partial vacuum inside. Indoor fans are not nearly powerful enough to change the air pressure by any significant amount. Additionally, if the room is closed, the gases circulate only inside the room, not changing overall pressure with respect to the environment.
• That an electric fan chops up all the air particles in the air leaving none to breathe. This explanation violates mass conservation and well-known properties of molecules and gases, particularly that known breakdown energy of oxygen molecules lies in the ultraviolet range, far above the energy produced by a fan. Furthermore, atomic oxygen is highly reactive and would produce sharp-smelling ozone, if it was produced by some mechanism. The theory makes no justifications for how and why a person will not suffocate while awake in a room which contains an operating fan.
• The fan uses up the oxygen in the room and creates fatal levels of carbon dioxide. An electric motor does not function by combustion; unlike a candle, the electric motor consumes energy supplied by the electricity, not from a fuel. The fan motor's commutator does produce a small amount of ozone during normal operation; however, most AC powered fans use induction motors, whose brushless design eliminates any possible ozone production. Ozone can be fatal in high concentrations, but under normal conditions the gas would never build up to lethal levels.
• That if the fan is put directly in front of the face of the sleeping person, it will suck all the air away, preventing one from breathing. Bernoulli's principle states that as air speed increases, air pressure decreases, meaning less air to breathe, but this effect would not be anywhere near dramatic enough to kill a person. Additionally, the resultant pressure gradient would yield flow from the high pressure surrounding area to the low pressure area, largely nullifying this effect.

Anyone who cares to reliably source these can certainly put them back into the article. Cheers. --Ds13 (talk) 16:50, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Hyperthermic fan death

So just to be clear: switching on a fan can in fact cause death by hyperthermia (not hypothermia), in cases where the room is unventilated and extremely hot and the person is, say, passed out drunk, is that correct? According to at least one Korean person, the Korean popular belief is that fans can cause death in summer and the room is unventilated. If that's correct, then this is not an urban legend, or a least not much of one.

Now certainly someone with a blog is not a Reliable Source. But I would say the burden of proof is on the claim that the Korean beliefs are unreasonable. This article relies largely on one (primary) source, this is what it says:

Beware of Summer Hazards!

Doors should be left open when sleeping with the electric fan or air conditioner turned on

If bodies are exposed to electric fans or air conditioners for too long, it causes bodies to lose water and hypothermia. If directly in contact with a fan, this could lead to death from increase of carbon dioxide saturation concentration and decrease of oxygen concentration. The risks are higher for the elderly and patients with respiratory problems.

From 2003~2005, a total of 20 cases were reported through the CISS involving asphyxiations caused by leaving electric fans and air conditioners on while sleeping. To prevent asphyxiation, timers should be set, wind direction should be rotated and doors should be left open.

Well, of course that's a pretty silly thing to say, for one release from one government agency. What it presumably ought to say is something like this:

Beware of Summer Hazards!

Doors should be left open when sleeping with the electric fan turned on

If bodies are exposed to electric fans for too long in a very hot room, it causes bodies to lose water and hyperthermia, like a convection oven. If directly in contact with a fan, this could lead to death from increase of body temperature. The risks are higher for the elderly and patients with respiratory problems.

From 2003~2005, a total of 20 cases were reported through the CISS involving hyperthermia caused by leaving electric fans on while sleeping. To prevent hyperthermia, fans should not be used in very hot conditions, and doors should be left open.

OK, so I have no idea what those 20 reported cases were all about. On the other hand, it's pretty clear the idea that fan death is an urban legend lacks WP:Verifiability. I'd guess that (hyperthermic) fan death does occasionally happen, and there is no more than a popular misconception on the causes and nature of the phenomenon rather than on the existence of the phenomenon. Again, the burden of verifiability is on the content of the article, the claim that fan death is an urban legend.

—Ashley Y 03:58, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Article subject

The article subject is "fan death". Therefore all information about potential health hazard is valid for inclusion. If you want to write about myth exclusively , please make a proper unambiguous article title, such as Korean belief in fan death. Staszek Lem (talk) 19:25, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Heat conditions or heart conditions?

Last sentence of the first paragraph. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.48.174.51 (talk) 12:45, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

white noise ?

Hello, as a French reader, I found this article by chance. I am amazed, among plenty of hypotheses proposed here that the hypothesis of white noise has not been proposed ; It seems that a fan emits a sort of white noise.
This noise could according to some authors* facilitate sleep. And white noise can have a calming effect on the baby.
This is only a hypothesis, but maybe in a few cases, the presence of a fan could "facilitate" one sudden infant death syndrome ?, or forward an adult?
Sources :
Vicente-Torres MA, Gil-Loyzaga P. Noise stimulation decreases the concentration of norepinephrine in the rat cochlea. Neurosci Lett 1999, 14; 266. -
* Southwick SM, Bremner JD, Rasmusson A, Morgan CA, Arnsten A, Charney DS. Role of norepinephrine in the pathophysiology and treatment of posttraumatic stress disorder ; Biol Psychiatry 1999, 46: 1192-1204 (abstract)). Of course, this is only a hypothesis, moreover non-exclusive, and should first verify that excess mortality is truly associated with the use of a fan during sleep --Lamiot (talk) 15:31, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

See WP:OR#Synthesis_of_published_material_that_advances_a_position. Also, to quote the article... Scientific consensus holds that fan death is a myth. TippyGoomba (talk) 16:34, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Fan Death in Japan?

As far as I knew, fan death was only Korea. Someone added that it also included Japan. I have been unable to find anything in regards to Japan also believing this. Until a source is mentioned, i am reverting it back to "South Korea". Masterhatch 10 July 2005

I don't have a source, but I lived in Japan and was often told that I would die if I left the fan on overnight. This is obviously untrue because I've slept with a fan on every night for my entire life (mostly), and am still apparently alive. So maybe the media doesn't perpetuiate the myth as much in Japan as in Korea, but there exist Japanese people that think fans kill you. (And heaters in the winter, for that matter. I think the cost of energy is just too high and "you're going to die" is more polite than "I don't want to pay for this".) Jrockway 17:17, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

I've been in Japan nearly ten years and I'll say this: every fan I have ever seen here (except battery-powered ones) has had an off-timer. Whogue 12:28, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Aren't the timers for conserving energy... and to, let's see, stop it after a while? I've used the timer before, and I don't believe in fan death the least. I mean, there is a timer for my Hi Fi as well, does that mean I believe in Hi-Fi death? Neato, time to make a new article. --203.218.197.237 15:38, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I bought a fan last week. It had no timer. The cheap ones at the store didn't. I just asked everyone around me in the office, and 12 out of 12 Japanese have never even heard of this. I'd be willing to bet that higher quality fans, just like any electric appliances made with energy consumption in mind, have it as an option.Smoove K 07:25, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Higher quality fans should have EC technology build inside so they would consume considerably less energy. Savings from well over 30% (depends on the technology one compares it to) are possible! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.224.208.253 (talk) 20:03, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

See this page or the (in my opinion not very good) English translation here. It's not a pervasive belief in Japan, but it's there. Also see the Japanese WP article (clicky!), where in the first paragraph it says that there is a similar urban legend in Japan, and there is a section dedicated to the Japanese variation of the myth. -MissingNOOO 20:55, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

The "Fan death" article in Japanese Wikipedia, the belief in Japan is also introduced. ― 韓斌/Yes0song (談笑 筆跡 다지모) 06:50, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I live in Taiwan - none of the fans here have timers that I have seen, but two colleagues - one Japanese, one Chinese - both urged me of 'Wind Burn' and potential death from fans. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.224.33.17 (talk) 10:36, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

I am Japanese, and I have heard from my family not to leave the fan on while sleeping. I had thought this was a Japanese belief, since I never hear it in America. Looking at the Japanese wiki page shows that it is considered an urban legend of Japan and Korea. So I think we need to remove the statements like "never been reported or ever heard of in any other country including North Korea." 97.134.209.233 (talk) 20:35, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

I can attest to the same as Smoove above (wow, that was five years ago). This just came up in my office, I pulled up this article, and none of my Japanese co-workers had ever even heard of this - in fact, the immediate reaction was, obviously, disbelief and amusement. The Japanese may have their quirks and strange beliefs (like the silly blood type horoscope thing), but fan death ain't one of them. 164.71.1.222 (talk) 01:53, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Not that any of this is relevant, but fan death was mentioned to me today, but a Japanese co-worker. She also had no idea about the same belief in Korea.Sennen Goroshi ! (talk) 18:39, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Conflicting information in "Origin of Belief" section

The first line of this section states "The genesis of the misconception is unclear, but fears about electric fans date almost to their introduction to Korea, with stories dating to the 1920s and 1930s warning of the risks of nausea, asphyxiation, and facial paralysis from this "new technology".[1][2]

The second part if this same section states that "There is a conspiracy theory that the South Korean government created or perpetuated the myth as propaganda to curb the energy consumption of South Korean households during the 1970s energy crisis,[1] which coincided with the rule of President Park Chung-hee, who named modernization and a self-reliant economy as his top goals in his Five Year Economic Development Plan.[3] That reports of fan death first appeared in the 1970s supports this theory.[4]

I may be making a comprehension mistake, but it looks to me as if this is saying the stories of fan death first appeared in the 1920s and 1930s, followed directly by it stating that stories of fan death first appeared in the 1970s. So... which is it?72.197.38.228 (talk) 11:20, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Zero gravity environments irrelevant

I'm removing two sentences on the vital importance of fans in zero gravity environments. It's interesting, but simply not related to fan death in this article's context; it's actually the opposite in a sense. There are also many other situations in which fans are necessary for safety or survival. Just posting here in case anyone wants to make a case for continued inclusion. The sentences in question are:

Fans are necessary in zero-gravity environments, where exhaled gases of different densities do not rise or fall away from the person breathing but instead mix more slowly via diffusion. Sleeping on the International Space Station without a fan or ducted airflow would eventually cause asphyxiation.

Agyle (talk) 08:41, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

The last line...

The very last line of this site says:

• Recently, with the advent of the Internet, many South Koreans have become skeptical of fan death. Although some news sources have begun to recognize it as an urban legend, it remains a very widely-held belief.

I have been in South Korea for over 3 and a half years and i can tell you that the belief in fan death is just as strong now as it was before the internet ruled the day. it is actually probably stronger because of the net as there are numerous korean sites that promote fan death and anything written about fan death by non-koreans is considered garbage. I have only ever met ONE korean who doesn't believe in fan death. she doesn't believe in it because she grew up in canada and moved to korea as an adult.

Anyways, my points is, that last line about koreans starting to realise fan death isn't true should be changed. Their belief is only growing.

• Masterhatch

How can you possibly know this if you have only been in Korea for 3.5 years? I assure you that they've had internet access in the country far longer than that. pipatron (talk) 22:52, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Last section needs source

The very last section contains excerpts of opinions from three medical doctors, two of which are licensed to practice in South Korea. The section is tagged for inappropriate tone, which I am not questioning or challenging. Two of the three excerpts have reference citations. That is good. The third one, from a South Korean physician, does not. I refer to this:

Dr. Lee Yoon-song is a professor at Seoul National University's medical school and works with the school's Institute of Scientific Investigation. He has conducted autopsies on some of the people who have been described in Korean media as having succumbed to fan death:

When someone's body temperature drops below 35 degrees, they do start to lose judgment ability. So if someone was hiking and later found dead, that could be part of the reason. :But we can't really apply this to fan accidents. I found most of the victims already had some sort of disease like heart problems or serious alcoholism. So hypothermia is not the main reason for death, but it may contribute.

He blames the Korean media for the persistence of the urban legend:

Korean reporters are constantly writing inaccurate articles about death by fan, describing these deaths as being caused by the fan. That's why it seems that fan deaths only happen in Korea, when in reality these types of deaths are quite rare. They should have reported the victim's original defects such as heart or lung disease, which are the main cause of death in these cases.

Given much of the unscientific material in Wikipedia and some of the if-y portions of this article, I would prefer that Dr. Lee Yoon-song's sensible statement be retained rather than removed from the article. I have no idea how to find the source, but would encourage anyone else who can, do so.

It would be sad, and misleading for WP readers for the section to be removed. --FeralOink (talk) 00:45, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

The quotes from all three people are actually found in the same source (Surridge, Grant. (2004-09-22). "Newspapers fan belief in urban myth." JoongAng Daily). I have corrected the quotes and added the necessary citations. —BarrelProof (talk) 21:59, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Origins of Belief may go back Thousands of Years

If any budding Koreanologists want an obscure topic of inquiry, I recommend combing the literature for references to illness-causing winds in Korea and area folk beliefs and religions. In my readings and travels, I have come across the idea in different places that ancient Chinese, Austronesians, and Hmong associated bad winds with certain diseases. It would be really interesting to get some accounts of how exactly people think this works.

I also suspect that this fear of electric fans exists outside of Asia, as I was told in rural Panay Island in the Philippines that using electric fans was the cause of certain illnesses, that "the air gets inside you".

Dwarfkingdom (talk) 05:29, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

So the Philippines are not in Asia? Spacecowboy420 (talk) 09:02, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

For that matter, it might be worth checking out the Miasma theory of disease and the long-held fear of Night air. —BarrelProof (talk) 22:41, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Evaluating this article

The first citation of this article by Ken Jennings is not an acceptable source since it is a blog. They are merely only opinions of the person who wrote the article. I'm wondering if the second citation, "Strange Harm From Electric Fans", is acceptable because the entire article is in Korean. I believe that getting sources that are more reliable that are driven by facts will help this article to have a stronger background information. Kimjeo42 (talk) 17:01, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

Under the section of Proposed Causes, the term hyperthermia needs a citation.Kimjeo42 (talk) 17:01, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

Professional opinion section should be deleted to make the article more fact based, and not so opinion based. Kimjeo42 (talk) 17:01, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

I also think that this article isn't neutral in the sense that the "Fan Death" is not 100% true. Most of the sources and opinions state that it might be true, but in contrast, there should also be information on why this article might not be true. Kimjeo42 (talk) 17:08, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

Evaluation of article

Reference 5 which is supposed to lead to the Excessive heat events guidebook from the US EPA is a reliable source but when you click on the link it takes you to the EPA's page about heat islands. I could not find the pdf which would supposedly have Annex B in it that you reference. Only 5 out of your 14 sources are considered reliable sources, the other 9 are pulled from newspaper articles and blogs.

In the hypothermia section, second paragraph you make no references but start the paragraph with the phrase "simple physics" if this is so simple then there should be some journal article about it. I assume that you are referring to the simple physics of thermodynamics in which if people were to keep a heat pump (fan) with no outlet then the heat would build up in the room. You could have referenced: http://docs.lib.purdue.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1228&context=icec, which is from the University of Purdue's School of Engineering. Also in this section you state that "few people would keep a fan running in a room that is cold enough to induce hypothermia" I feel like that is your opinion and cannot be stated as a fact.

In the asphyxiation section you reference an article from a source called Straight Dope to disprove the theory of running out of oxygen in a closed room. I feel like this could be challenged with a simple model of the room, an averaged sized person and breathing rates which could be referenced by a medical journal. BrianaKayPhillips (talk) 18:45, 28 September 2017 (UTC)

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Suicide

I'd heard 'fan death' started as a euphemism for suicide, which is a taboo subject in ROK. Can anyone corroborate this? It seems like the article should mention this, if there's sources for it. Devgirl (talk) 22:08, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 25 February 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. A consensus to not move this page. (non-admin closure) –Ammarpad (talk) 15:42, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

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Fan death → Fan death theory – The original Korean name for the subject of the page is "선풍기 사망설", literally meaning "Fan Death Theory". Changing the page name to "Fan death theory" would more accurately reflect what the subject is actually known in South Korea. Aceus0shrifter (talk) 14:47, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). -- /Alex/₂₁ 22:58, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

• Support move. Though we shouldn't be looking at this solely from a translation perspective, it certainly makes sense to include "theory" as part of the name. ONR (talk) 13:57, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
• Support Qzekrom (talk) 23:26, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose - While I don't find the proposed name controversial, in English popular culture and in sources, "fan death" appears to be the WP:COMMONNAME. I also seem to find more sources treating the topic as fear, rather than theory. Of course, this does not mean that there are no proposed hypotheses about the topic and its history... —PaleoNeonate – 00:53, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose per my rationale at the speedy request page. The term "fan death" is quite common in English, with an estimated 210,000 Google hits, and the majority of top hits pertain to this topic, while "fan death theory" gets 51 Ghits. Ghits aren't always a good indicator, especially with historical topics ignored by popular culture, such as ancient Estonian gods (see WP:AADP#Google test), but for something in current popular culture, Google's a good deal more reliable for determining what's the most common name. In other words, I oppose moving, since "fan death" is the normal name in English. Nyttend (talk) 04:52, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose: It's more of a myth or superstition than a theory. —BarrelProof (talk) 17:31, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
  • I'd say more urban legend. Superstition is more of a supernatural thing, I'd say, and myths are traditional foundational stories of how things came to be as they are (e.g. "we descend from two boys suckled by a wolf"), rather than something like this. Nyttend (talk) 22:50, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose - as a rule, wikipedia articles about things that are believed but are not necessarily true get titled with the name of the phenomenon itself, not with "Theory of XYZ" or "Debate about XYZ" or anything like that - e.g., Bigfoot. Admittedly, this isn't an absolute rule, but what is absolute in wikipedia? - DavidWBrooks (talk) 21:00, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
  • I recall one article that was given a name to try to make it clear that it was not a well-accepted notion: Bosnian pyramid claims. —BarrelProof (talk) 01:29, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose Between two options, I usually favor a shorter title. It may be true that this theory is a theory, but the article already calls it a "superstition" in the first sentence. It's common to just call this superstition "fan death" and I think that readers can find out easily enough from the first sentence of the article that it is a theory.Hko2333 (talk) 02:15, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

CISS

"CISS" is in a quotation, but there is no explanation of what it means. I searched for a little while on the internet and could not find any fitting explanation. Can some-one please explain it? Kdammers (talk) 12:09, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

According to the source: "Consumer Injury Surveillance System". —PaleoNeonate – 09:10, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

References