Talk:Eurovision Song Contest 1956

Winner’s point margin

Yesterday, one of my contacts purchased an Italian newspaper that had a section about the 1956 contest, including new photos that previously weren’t online.

Not only did the magazine further confirm the voting system, but the journalists asked RSI director, Stelio Molo, about the winning margin of "Refrain," to which he confirmed Refrain won by a 2 point difference, and the remaining songs weren’t far off from the top 2.

FRAGMENT:

Abbiamo potuto avvicinare, durante la prelibata «cena fredda» offerta agli invitati nel saloni superiori del Kursaal il dottor Molo, direttore della RSI che oltre ad averci precisato quanto sopra ci ha cortesemente vluto rispondere ad alcune domande. […] Siamo venuti così a conoscenza che lo scarto dalla prima canzone classificata adla seconda è stato di due punti e tutte le altre candidate non sono finite lontane.

TRANSLATION:

During the delicious "cold dinner" offered to the guests in the upper halls of the Kursaal, we could approach Dr. Molo, director of the RSI who, apart from clarifying the above, wanted to answer some questions kindly. […] We thus came to know that the gap from the first classified song to the second was two points and all the other candidates did not finish far away.

This seems to debunk the fact that "Refrain" won with 102 points, since if 140 total votes are available, then the 2nd placing song would have 100 votes, and 102+100=202, which is more than 140.

Unfortunately, the paper doesn’t mention any other result hints, nor who actually got 2nd place. However, the German commentator from 1980 may or may not have confirmed that Germany got 2nd place, as he says something along the lines of “this is the second time we’ve gotten second place,” since they didn’t come 2nd in any of the other years, but this may or may not be true, since the rumors of Germany getting 2nd could’ve dated back during 1980 or even before.

Not only that, but the newspaper also confirms that the hosting rule, where the winning country gets to host the next contest, was attempted even in the beginning.

FRAGMENT:

Il prossimo anno, sempre secondo il regolamento, la Svizzera ospiterà ancora le canzoni partecipanti al II Gran Premio

TRANSLATION:

Next year, again according to the regulations, Switzerland will once again host the songs participating in the II Grand Prix

Switzerland likely didn’t host due to budget constraints, similar to other countries not hosting twice in a row.

I wish I knew what the issue was called and how to properly source it, and I wish I could provide proof of the paper’s existence outside of this info, but I hope I get the name of the issue soon. Jusherman (talk) 07:13, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

Let's unpack these claims point by point:

• 1) The scoring system for the 1956 contest, going by the reliable sources in this article, is that every juror ranked every song between 1 and 10 (similar to how the entries were scored between 1971 and 1973). Therefore the theoretical maximum is 140, as two jurors per country, 7 contries competing, so 14 total jurors that can give a maximum of 10 points to any entry.
• 2) The rumour that Germany came second is largely based on the fact that the 1957 contest was held in Germany. In fact the reason behind this was that originally it was envisaged that the host country would rotate every year, regardless of who won the contest. This can be seen even in 1958, when the Dutch were only given hosting rights after every other country declined. It was only then, and then for the 1959 contest, that the winner was given the hosting rights in the first instance. This information has been substantiated with reliable sources available to us online.
• 3) The rules of the 1956 contest, which are available online, make no reference to where the following year's contest would be held. I can't speak for the rules of the 1957 contest, but these were likely drafted following the decision to host the contest in Germany.

It's certainly good to be trying to piece together bits about the 1956 contest, and I've done my best to draw together a good article on the subject already. I can't however speak to how reliable or verifiable the newspaper your contact purchased. We would need this information before trying to incorporate any of these claims into the article. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 08:32, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

The issue is #23, the magazine is called Settimana Radio TV, and at the top of the magazine, the code is Anno III • N. 23 • 3-9 giugno 1956

The section where they talk about the 1956 contest is called: IL PREMIO EUROVISIONE 1956 PER LÀ CANZONE EUROPEA A LUGANO: HA VINTO IL REFRAIN DI MARCA ELVETICA

Furthermore, this was the eBay listing for the magazine. https://www.ebay.it/itm/295444487041?hash=item44c9dd1b81:g:kdoAAOSwIJhjrZr~&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4A3QIQoLLUZdsMmhGlMLn5IN1g5oktt14fF0%2Fo1lCwWGMcRl%2BsubnnL%2Fh6annbYLGRx9uHMMvxOYCuVihS8pXmfi1hVxq326ZWmU3%2FjHqSMe%2BnsJjFwyP0GbV%2BMMWCA5k%2FJo%2Fgn4XfpdHjAJFnKNAui3cU%2FltQ5sAYsyeD676YlQl3DaZJlleXPqClVntlijNeUokx2ckVhQHE4h4FGz%2FoTOjXC9LJuSZPLf0U2FE6QrriEn%2FHPkLMFxIpCVtGHisZpTCk9okTtJ18b3eqFd4FHtwUbUbUIDp76sTM9Fgke9%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR7K35ImRYg

I’m still unsure how to correctly source a magazine that’s not online, apart from an online listing, so if you could make the source for me, that would be great. Jusherman (talk) 21:44, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

I saw your edit, which I have to thank you very much for. I’m also very happy more information about 1956 is being revealed.

However, something you could edit is how the 2 point gap is confirmed by someone involved in the show, while the 102 point claim isn’t, further debunking the claim.

One of my contacts also found another magazine that says Switzerland would host the 1957 contest. Fortunately, it’s digitized and online, so we could put this is as a wikisource.

https://www.sbt.ti.ch/quotidiani-public-pdf/main_part.php?fullscreen=true&paper=ls&day=26&month=5&year=1956&page=1&allpages=1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8&papername=Libera%20Stampa (page #7)

Not really sure how the claims you said fit in here, as both claims of Switzerland hosting again come from different archives and issues, this one coming from La Stampa, and the previous one being from Settimana Radio TV. Jusherman (talk) 05:32, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

1956 Rebroadcast?

I’ve been in contact with an expert Eurovision researcher for almost a year now, and he’s told me lots of beneficial info, and sent me very interesting media, such as sending me high quality scans of the 1964 transmission frames and having partial Dutch radio commentary from 1964. He also found out that the 1956 audio as we know it was discovered in the 1980s by an unknown Swiss EBU broadcaster.

Yesterday, he sent me an online magazine from Giornale de Populo, the same newspaper company that confirmed the 2nd interval act, which says the 1956 contest was rebroadcast in June 10, 1956. Unfortunately he didn’t send me the link, but he sent me a screenshot instead.

This might confirm that 1956 was indeed saved, but he didn’t tell me if it was the TV or radio broadcast, or both.

He’s also confused on how RSI has been mentioned several times in these rare newspapers, even though RSI didn’t exist until 1958. Jusherman (talk) 05:42, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Old editions of "Giornale del Popolo" can be accessed through the online newspapers archive of the Ticinese library system here: [1]. It may be available there, if you know the date the newspaper was published.

RSI itself was founded in 1931, with the first experimental Italian-language radio station (Radio Monte Ceneri) starting in 1925 followed by regular radio broadcasts from 1933, however Italian-language television broadcasts by RSI did not commence until 1958. This is probably where the confusion lies, and I would posit that in Italian-language media it was probably common enough to refer to the entirety of SRG SSR as "RSI" to avoid confusion. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 08:23, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

@Jusherman: Date? Also would they be kind to publish the frames from 1964 somewhere? ImStevan (talk) 19:09, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

The newspaper was issued on June 9 or 10, 1956. The key word is "Eurovisione," and you’ll find the info on Radi an Television programmes.

The researcher sent an email to a contact who works for RSI about the magazines and articles regarding the 1956 contest, but the contact is out of office until the end of June. Jusherman (talk) 23:50, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

The 9 June 1956 edition of Giornale del Popolo shows that there was a repeat broadcast of the contest on radio on Sunday 10 June: [2] "RSI" refers in this instance to what is now known as RSI Rete Uno, which was the only Italian-language radio station broadcast by SRG SSR (and most likely in all of Switzerland). This information, although interesting, isn't exactly relevant to the article however. If it were a repeat television broadcast then sure, but we already have information in the article that audio recordings exist. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 08:20, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Today, the researcher told me found another newspaper that says that the contest was rebroadcast on radio again in July 4, 1956. Again, he didn’t provide any links (only a screenshot), but the screenshot was from the newspaper “Ticino Gazette.” Jusherman (talk) 04:44, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

1956 logo

Once again, the Dutch researcher I have contact with sent me something that also proves something wrong.

The 1956 logo didn’t actually have the Harrington font, but the version with the Playbill font in the logo’s edit history is the accurate logo.

He sent me a PDF file of all the pages of the official 1956 booklet, which includes all the promo photos of the singers. I posted them onto Twitter for a reply regarding the true logo. https://twitter.com/LewisTheJej/status/1667445614680915968

Not sure how the image can be reverted, nor how we came to agree that the Harrington font version is the real deal, when it’s not. Jusherman (talk) 09:30, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

Maybe we can include the promo photos in the Wikipedia page? Just a thought Jusherman (talk) 09:33, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

Would adding pages from the programme not have copyright implications? I can almost guarantee that this is not free media. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 12:46, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

Fair point on the pages. I’m also not sure if we can upload the 1964 stills to Wikimedia Commons, since they’re low quality like the 1965 frames.

Do you think we should revert the 1956 logo to the accurate version? Jusherman (talk) 22:29, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

I'd like more clarification on the booklet. It might be an official booklet, but is it the official booklet? My reason for questioning is that it's in Italian only, meanwhile the official languages of the event are English and French. Was it a local copy by a specific broadcaster or the host broadcaster? Was that actually the official logo typeface or the only typeface that the specific printer had available to them? The logo file has other versions in its history; it would also be interesting to hear how Wikipedia settled on the current Harrington version. Grk1011 (talk) 14:26, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

I am currently asking the researcher if the booklet was the official one, but I remember seeing one of the images on a website called andtheconductoris.eu. He also has contact with one of the people in charge of the website.

As far as I know, there was not a single instance of the Harrington font version in any of the promotional material he sent me. Jusherman (talk) 20:53, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

He told me that the booklet he sent me was the official one! He’s had the booklet for years. More recently, he saw a TV interview of Anne Bantzinger (Jetty Paerl’s daughter), and he saw the booklet on a table.

Furthermore, he couldn’t find the Harrington font version anywhere in his collection, and he doubts it’s the real deal. Jusherman (talk) 08:30, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Does he know why it's only available in Italian? Doesn't seem like it would have been very helpful to many of the participants. Switzerland itself didn't even send an entry in Italian that year. Grk1011 (talk) 12:25, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

He doesn’t know why it’s only in Italian. He also told me there only was an Italian version, as that was the host’s and organization’s language.

The 1957 promo booklet also only had the organizing country’s language, German. It was only in 1958 where the booklets would be multilingual.

Is it alright if I revert the image myself? I’ll state my reasons in the image caption. Jusherman (talk) 09:11, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

I’ve seen the promo photo of Walter Andreas Schwarz on his Wikipedia page in similar quality, and there seems to be no issue.

Maybe there will be no problem posting these to Wikipedia Commons. Jusherman (talk) 05:35, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

A bit late to join in the debate, but some comments:

The logo as currently shown on the Wikipedia article features the logo of RSI under the title and gives the impression that the RSI logo was part of the "official logo". In the pictures of the booklet, only the title of the contest can be seen on top of the first page but not the logo of RSI. So the current version used on Wikipedia is misleading in this respect.

Secondly, as Grk1011 pointed out, earlier versions of the file show an entirely different logo. This different logo is also used on eurovision.tv. It's not entirely clear what the basis for that logo is (in which publication for example it should be possible to find it).

So far I haven't come across any source from 1956 which repeats either of the two logos. As long as it is unclear whether there actually was an "official logo" of the 1956 edition and which one it was, I would advocate for having no logo image on the Wikipedia article so not to give any false impressions. EurovisionLibrarian (talk) 14:57, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

A small update: If the logo used by eurovision.tv (and which is the earlier version of the file) uses the Harrington font, it seems very doubtful that it really is from 1956: According to several websites, the Harrington font was created by a person named Sam Wang in 1991. EurovisionLibrarian (talk) 15:07, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Rules: solo artists

"Only solo artists were permitted to compete." The reference given in the article for that claim are the offical rules. However, I cannot find any article nor sentence in the rules that states that only solo artists are allowed...?! In contrast, article IV states that, apart from the restriction of originality and duration, "...no other restriction is brought up, neither to the choice of each of the participants of the performed works, nor to the choice of the performers of these works..." (my translation). Any objections to deleting that sentence from the article? EurovisionLibrarian (talk) 12:21, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm not 100% certain where this came from, I checked some of the other offline sources used in this article and I couldn't find anything eiter, so I went ahead and removed this sentence. Thanks for flagging! Sims2aholic8 (talk) 09:30, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

International distribution

In one of the promotional material a Dutch researcher handed me, there was a page exclusively about the 5 conductors. https://twitter.com/LewisTheJej/status/1667445732482113536 (2nd photo)

At the bottom however, it mentions several international broadcasters like the Australian Broadcasting Corporation, and Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, and other European broadcaster that would later compete.

The section is called “Lista de collegamenti”, or “connection list” in English. The reason these other broadcasters are mentioned, was because the 1956 contest would be taped on either radio or television, depending on the country, and they would be given to the broadcasters’ archive.

They sent copies to Australia, Austria, Canada, Monaco, Portugal, and Türkiye, with either radio or television tapes.

Maybe if we’re lucky, a tape from either one of these countries could still exist. I sent this to many of my contacts, and one told me that Australia and Canada could still have a copy, or at least something. He has hope that Canada could have a TV tape, as they kept their archives fresh. Jusherman (talk) 05:33, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

German broadcaster: NWDR / NWRV

As far as I can see from the Wikipedia page of NWDR, NWDR ceased to exist on 1 January 1956. It was replaced by the two distinct broadcasters NDR and WDR. They both formed the Nord- und Westdeutscher Rundfunkverband (NWRV) with the aim to produce television programs for Deutsches Fernsehen. As far as can be read from the German Wikipedia page of NWRV, NWRV replaced NWDR for television programs on 1 April 1956. NDR and WDR already had their separate radio programs/stations from 1 January 1956 on.

The German national final, held on 1 May 1956, was organised by NWRV.

Any objections to changing NWDR to NWRV in the naming of the participating broadcaster? --EurovisionLibrarian (talk) 07:50, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Im Wartesaal zum großen Glück - song title

Walter Andreas Schwarz's entry "Im Wartesaal zum großen Glück" was presented under the title "Das Lied vom großen Glück" both in the German national final and in the international final in Lugano, as can be heard in the announcement of Lohengrin Filippo (see original audio recording). If there are no objections, I will change the title of the song to "Das Lied vom großen Glück" with the original audio recording as reference. --EurovisionLibrarian (talk) 15:35, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

@EurovisionLibrarian: This change would require a source/sources per WP:VERIFY. The large majority of sources support "Im Wartesaal zum großen Glück" as the song title and this title is supported by all references used within this article. It's the title used by the organisers of the contest ([3]) and also appears to be the name by which the song has become most known (see WP:COMMONNAME). Sims2aholic8 (talk) 07:48, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments. You name several principles/sources according to which the song title should be determined. However, I still have trouble understanding which of these sources should be given the priority in case of conflicting information (which is the case here).

If we say that we go by the "common name", we ought also to change "Vicky" on the 1967 page to "Vicky Leandros" because that's the name by which she is known today. So what is the priority, the common name today or the credit at the time when it happened?

In your edits on the pages of 1990 and 1996 you changed the names of titles and artists because they were credited as such "on screen". We don't have the video of 1956, of course, but the audio, in which the presenter says "Das Lied vom großen Glück". In this case, the reference would be the televised broadcast. (Or why would this case be different?)

And there's a second reference, the listings magazine "Fernseh-Informationen" (no. 14/1956) already quoted in the page Germany in the Eurovision Song Contest 1956.

A third reference (magazine "Quick", also quoted on the Germany 1956 page) gives the same song title when speaking about the national final. There are no sources from 1956 giving a different song title than "Das Lied vom großen Glück", as far as I know.

I agree that all sources available from the 1990s onwards, including the official Eurovision internet page, say different. A legend that perpetuates itself. And I know it's hard to accept that it could be different because we're so used to "Im Wartesaal zum großen Glück". That's also the reason for which I first wanted to have your comments before making any change on the Wikipedia page.

So should the priority be given to original sources from 1956 or not? And how many sources/press articles etc. from 1956 would be needed to challenge the current assumptions? For the moment, I have found "only" two but these seem independent from each other.  Plus the third source, also from 1956, which gives the exact same song title. I can't believe that this is a coincidence. --EurovisionLibrarian (talk) 18:05, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Honestly I don't know the right solution here. When you're dealing with an almost-70 year old contest I guess things are going to get messy, complicated and conflicting. I have added a footnote to the tables, which I believe to be a suitable compromise that has been employed in other articles (e.g. the Russian entry from 1994). Refs are still required of course, but this is I believe a more simplified way of covering all bases. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 09:31, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Alright, thank you. I understand your position and can live with that compromise. I have added the references. --EurovisionLibrarian (talk) 18:04, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

RSI / Radiotelevisione svizzera + co-production with Swiss German TV

The designation "Radiotelevisione svizzera" in the article seems anachronistic as RSI didn't have a TV station in 1956 (they started TV broadcasts only in 1958, see Radiotelevisione_svizzera#History). Usually the historical names of the broadcasters used in that respective year are used in the ESC articles, such as "Deutsches Fernsehen" for the German TV, and RTF for the French TV. As for RSI, its official name seems to have been "Radio Svizzera Italiana", see p. 65 in:

Scherrer, Adrian (2000). "Aufschwung mit Hindernissen, 1931 - 1937". In Drack, Markus T. (ed.). Radio und Fernsehen in der Schweiz : Geschichte der Schweizerischen Rundspruchgesellschaft SRG bis 1958 (PDF) (in German). Baden: Hier und Jetzt. p. 65. ISBN 3-906419-12-6. Retrieved 31 December 2023.

By the way, as RSI, for obvious reasons, didn't have any own TV cameras back then and couldn't produce the show on its own, an OB van from Swiss German Television (SRG) came from Zurich to Lugano in May 1956, where it stayed a whole week and produced several television programs, including the ESC. This was reported by Swiss newspapers at the time, see: Journal et feuille d’avis du Valais (9 May 1956), Oberländer Tagblatt (26 May 1956).

If there are no objections, I will replace "Radiotelevisione svizzera" with "Radio Svizzera Italiana" and add the information about the co-production. EurovisionLibrarian (talk) 11:43, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and changed the broadcaster name on the article to "Radio svizzera di lingua italiana", which appears to be the correct name for the radio broadcaster until the merging of the radio and television departments in 2009 (see RSI page on company history). That's some useful information about how the Swiss German broadcaster helped out with technical equipment, and is definitely worth inclusion here. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 12:55, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for going ahead, but one commentary: "Radio svizzera di lingua italiana" isn't entirely correct either. It seems to have been the official name only from the 1990s on. According to p. 58 in the book chapter by Scherrer (reference above, link), the change from "Radio della Svizzera italiana" (p. 58) or "Radio Svizzera Italiana" (p. 65 and your link of the RSI page: "all’epoca si chiamava Radio Svizzera Italiana") to "Radio svizzera di lingua italiana" was made in the 1990s to mark the "national orientation" of its television and radio programs. The fact that it was commonly just called "Radio Monte Ceneri" or "Radio Lugano" in newspapers of the time, complicates the matter a little further. EurovisionLibrarian (talk) 13:14, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Multiple interval acts identified!

I was sent a program guide of the 1956 Eurovision Song Contest by the aforementioned Dutch researcher, which was made and shared by Danmarks Radio. https://www.dr.dk/alletidersprogramoversigter/?from=1956-05-24&to=1956-05-25&date=1956-05-24&fileIndex=8

It mentions the 14 participating songs in order and the interval acts from Les Joyeux Rossignols and Les Trois Ménestrels.

Below the line of text that mentions the last song,” we see our interval acts. Turns out the 2 interval actors performed multiple songs, with Les Joyeux Rossignols performing their songs before Les Trois Ménestrels.

According to the guide, Les Joyeux Rossignols whistled “Valse Savoyarde” (heard in the audio), “Rhytme d’Asie”, and “Samba Dance”. Les Trois Ménestrels performed “Guerre de Troie”, “Ma mie, ma caravelle”, “Davy Crockett”, and “Ballade des balladins.”

Although most of these songs can be found online, unfortunately the last 2 songs from Les Joyeux Rossignols can’t be found, as I couldn’t find their covers of either song. Jusherman (talk) 21:06, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for bringing up that source, which is very interesting. It seems that this "koda list" is a sort of report of what was broadcast, written after the broadcast. Similar documents exist for French television in the INA, called "Rapport du chef de chaîne", which focus more on technical details (technical incidents).

As far as I can see, the document linked by you mentions the song titles of the interval acts and their order but doesn't say anything about who performed them. How can we know that Les Joyeux Rossignols first performed a series of songs and then Les Trois Ménestrels another series of songs? How can we be sure that Les Joyeux Rossignols didn't perform just one or two songs, then Les Ménestrels another two, then again Les Rossignols etc...? In total, nine songs are mentioned. Your conclusion is that Les Joyeux Rossignols performed the first three, then Les Trois Ménestrels six more songs. How do you know? The conclusions you draw in your edits look like either guessing or WP:SYNTH to me. EurovisionLibrarian (talk) 19:36, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

The reason why I figured the artists from the songs is because the last 6 mentioned of bunch were all released and had credits by Les Trois Ménestrels, and the others must be from Les Joyeux Rossignols.

I tried looking up “Rhythme d’Asie” and “Sambe Dance” with mentions of Trois Ménestrels, but I found nothing, so I concluded that Les Joyeux Rossignols sung those songs. Les Joyeux Rossignols recorded themselves making whistle covers of various accordion songs and maybe classical music, so the fact that they whistled those 2 songs makes sense. I also assume the order of the interval acts that are listed are correct, since the competing songs are also listed in order.

“Vegliero” doesn’t appear to be an interval act, because I couldn’t find anything from that for either interval actor, and since the name of the composer is partially blocked, I assume it read “Paggi,” the contest’s musical director.

I hope this inference or assumption doesn’t revert my edits back, because I want more of the Eurovision community to know a lot about the 1956 and 1964 contests with even the most extensive knowledge. Jusherman (talk) 00:52, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Looking at the new reference and your accompanying explanation, I would concur with EurovisionLibrarian that this would be a WP:SYNTH issue, as well as a wider WP:OR issue, since you're making assumptions about limited information at hand and drawing conclusions that are not included within the sources provided. I commend your drive to adding to the articles for the 1956 and 1964 contests, which like most of the early editions are somewhat overlooked, but additional sources, if available, are required to support your additions so that they do not rely on OR. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 10:04, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

I can somewhat understand this revert, but Les Joyeux Rossignols didn't whistle "Aubade d'oiseaux" at all; not in the audio or in the program guide. In fact, they’re whistling “Valse Savoyarde,” since studio versions of the same song are a perfect match, and it’s the first interval act that’s mentioned in the program guide. It was a mistake I made while editing that, and I don’t want it to be misinterpreted as fact.

As for finding more information on the interval acts, I think it’s a tough challenge, because interval acts are barely mentioned in the newspapers I’ve seen. None of the acts or the interval actors are even mentioned in the official booklet. It’s very likely the program guide is the only documentation of all of 7 of these acts, or at least a very rare one.

If that’s so, then I think we should still include the program guide and its information to some extent that doesn't violate any citation issues, since it's a primary source. Jusherman (talk) 14:22, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

I can understand that, and yes it does appear that the "Aubade d'oiseaux" was an error, however unless there are relevant sources that we can use to point to the performance of "Valse Savoyarde" that does not cause a SYNTH issue then unfortunately we can't include it as this would be an OR violation. For now I've removed all reference to the specific piece that les Joyeux Rossignols performed given the conflicting sources, but until another source can be found to back up "Valse Savoyarde" and the other pieces then for now we cannot confidently include them without violating Wikipedia policy. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 15:11, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

In order not to dismiss the information present in the DR papers, my proposal would be adding a sentence with the following outcome:

"[...] performances by Les Joyeux Rossignols and Les Trois Ménestrels [fr] were featured to entertain the audience, with the latter performing "Guerre de Troie"." (current version)

+

"Besides that, the pieces "Valse Savoyarde", "Rhytme d'Asie", "Sabre Dance", "Ma Caravelle", "Davy Crockett", "Coupeurs de bois" and "Ballade des balladins" were played or performed during the show." [+your ref = DR programoversikter]

OR (less interpretative):

"Besides that, a broadcast document by Danish broadcaster DR also lists the pieces "Valse Savoyarde" [etc.] as being part of the show."

As to "Vegliero", I agree that it could be the piece played as closing music by the orchestra, and would therefore not include it in the article because its function is unclear and it is a bit speculative with a part of this row in the scanned document not being visible.

The information you found is of value, and we should treat it with the proper respect and responsibility. EurovisionLibrarian (talk) 19:02, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

That’s a great idea. Thank you! I hope we find more information about these outside of speculation.

Do you think citing Les Trois Ménestrels would bypass any violations, since we know which songs can be traced to them? If so, then I think it’s easy to see where I made my assumption too. Jusherman (talk) 23:17, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

I would be opposed to adding in this large string of titles of pieces performed in this manner when we don't have the link to the artists. Additionally, using this source and another source as "proof" that Les Trois Ménestrels performed the pieces in question at Eurovision would be a WP:SYNTH violation, since you're combining two sources to reach a conclusion that isn't present in either source. I did a slight rewrite to include a general statement that other pieces were performed and to reinclude the DR reference. Happy to continue to work to get the phrasing right, but I still don't believe adding in a whole list of pieces performed without the right context is helpful for the reader. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 10:11, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

I can live with that. The phrasing "with the latter performing "Guerre de Troie" along with other works" is still a bit misleading or confusing because it gives the impression that only Les Ménestrels performed several works but I can't think of a better sentence for the moment without repeating the verb. EurovisionLibrarian (talk) 19:41, 22 March 2024 (UTC)