Talk:Eugénie Brazier/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Ritchie333 (talk · contribs) 11:44, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

I'm happy to give this a review, though it may be a day or two before I can give a full assessment. I generally tend to copyedit things as I go, and make comments when I need clarification. Feel free to revert if you disagree on anything, I won't object. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 11:44, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

Lead

• "the first person to attain a total of six Michelin stars" - would "awarded six Michelin stars" scan better?

• It would. Done. Tim riley talk 15:47, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

• I wonder if it's worth clarifying the importance of Alain Ducasse here, in that he was erroneously reported to be the first chef to be awarded six stars, when it was in fact Brazier. I just can't think of an easy way of distilling that down to a few words - the lead is about the right size at the moment for an article this size.

• I think this is reasonably self-explanatory (and neutrally factual rather than commenting on the excision of Brazier from culinary history outside France, which is not for the lead, I think). I'm inclined to let the blue link do the work for anyone who feels inclined. Tim riley talk 15:47, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

• "She learned to cook for her employers, and was taken on as a junior cook" - could this be reworded to avoid the word "cook" twice in quick succession?

• Point taken and suggestions welcome. Not sure "trainee chef" or "junior chef" will quite do. My rule of thumb is that when repetition is the clearest way to get the meaning across to the reader, then repetition is right. Tim riley talk 15:47, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Okay, not a problem - sometimes it's worth just asking the question even if it seems like playing devil's advocate. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:08, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

More to come... Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 12:30, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

• Tim riley how about saying Commis Chef. Or is that already beyond the average reader? Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 09:35, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Looking forward to it. Tim riley talk 15:47, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Cook in Lyon

• "Brazier was taken on by a leading restaurateur in Lyon, Françoise Fillioux (or Filloux),[n 2] one of the Mères lyonnaises,[14] in her kitchen at le Bistrot Fillioux where she employed only women" This sentence looks a bit jumbled. Might it be easier split into two?

• What think you of "Brazier was taken on by a leading restaurateur in Lyon, Françoise Fillioux (or Filloux),[n 2] one of the Mères lyonnaises,[14] in her women-only kitchen at le Bistrot Fillioux? Tim riley talk 20:12, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

• Afterthought: or even omit "one of the Mères lyonnaises"? Tim riley talk 20:44, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Okay, let's go with that. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 10:02, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

• "under her supervision Brazier learned to make some of the most celebrated of the bistrot's dishes" - celebrated by whom, exactly?

• Curnonsky among others. You can still find La Mère Fillioux's chicken on the menu at Paul Bocuse's place. Tim riley talk 20:12, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

• "(When it was cooked, the truffle showed through the white skin of the chicken so that the overall appearance was black-and-white; hence the name.) - would this sit better as a footnote?

• I'd rather keep it in the main text: mentioning either of les Mères without mentioning the volaille demi-deuil would be Hamlet without the prince, and I think a description of the dish really ought to be there in the main text. Tim riley talk 20:12, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

• "From the Bistrot Fillioux, Brazier moved to another restaurant in Lyon, the Brasserie du Dragon, where she was better paid." - do we know if the better pay was the reason she left? Seems likely but the article suggests Fillioux was a demanding employer, which may have been a second reason.

• I can think of other adjectives than "demanding", but no, we don't know. My impression is that Brazier wanted to strike out on her own, but I can't back that up from the sources, which are not extensive. Tim riley talk 20:12, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

La Mère Brazier, Lyon

• "Her capital was 12,000 francs (roughly equivalent to 9,200 euros in 2015 terms)" - any chance of updating this for 2021?

• I can't remember which site I got this from, and I think it probably didn't offer a 2021 equivalent. If you have a recommended site for a 2021 update I'd be v. grateful to know it. Tim riley talk 20:19, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

This an interest problem. We have {{inflation}} for UK and US currencies, but nothing for France, because it would need to know about the 1960 re-evaluation and the currency value at the time of switching to the Euro. Maybe the French Wikipedia has something, as it's more likely to be used there. In any case, none of this is really part of the GA criteria, so it can wait. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 10:12, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

• "and money was tight" - this sounds like a euphemism, could we reword this?

• Done. Tim riley talk 20:19, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

• "she built up the restaurant" - in this case "built up" might imply she got involved with the physical construction of the restaurant building, rather than gaining a popular reputation.

• Done. Tim riley talk 20:19, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

• "Among the dishes she provided were the quenelles" - the second "the" seems redundant here, but I'm not sure.

• I think it's wanted, to make it plain that it is that particular quenelles dish rather than quenelles in general.

Col de la Luère

• "By the end of the decade" - might it be worth clarifying "1920s"? I'm not sure the reader will necessarily have that decade on their mind while they're reading through the article.

• Yes, better. Done. Tim riley talk 20:26, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

• "It is sometimes said that Brazier was the first woman to win three Michelin stars" - sometimes said by whom?

• Well, for a start by some of those seeking to correct the false statement that Ducasse was the first person to win six. Our Wikipedia article on Marie Bourgeois is at fault too in this regard. (I have it on my to-do list). Tim riley talk 20:26, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

War and post-war

• "When the war ended" - was that specifically on or near VE Day, or just generally around that time?

• The source doesn't say. The former would be my guess, but that is only a guess. Tim riley talk 20:31, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Okay, if we don't know anything more from the sources, then we can't be more precise, so that's okay. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 10:03, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

• "Brazier held a celebratory feast at the Col" - who is "the Col" in this context?

• That is how the source phrases it, and I think it is clear to the reader that the Col is the Col de la Luère. Tim riley talk 20:31, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

• "A key player at the Col de la Luère" - key player sounds like a "word to watch", could we reword this?

• Done. Tim riley talk 20:31, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Legacy

• "For the influential food writer Curnonsky" - influential according to whom?

• Auguste Escoffier among others, who called him "France's Prince of Gastronomy". He was founder-president of the Académie des Gastronomes, and even got an obit in our own unfoodie 1950s Times. I don't think we need a citation for the adjective, but will add one if you insist. Tim riley talk 20:37, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

• "Brazier was recognised by a Google Doodle" - is "recognised" the right word here?

• Do you think "celebrated" would be an improvement? Tim riley talk 20:37, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

I've gone with "commemorated", if you think "celebrated" is better, I don't mind that. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 10:05, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Images

• I'm happy with the rationales presented by the non-free images; they are either the lead image or explain context that would be more difficult using text.

I've got no further concerns, so I'll put the review on hold pending the last few bits. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:54, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

No other concerns, so I'll pass the review now. Well done! Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 10:13, 16 March 2021 (UTC)