Talk:Eugénie Brazier

Query similarity of article to another webpage

See https://www.eater.com/2016/8/12/12382076/eugenie-brazier

In particular the 4th paragraph commencing "Brazier was awarded...". The use of "scrimping" in this context is unusual and used also in the Wikipedia entry.

This apparently has been changed, and thus should be fine now. ɱ (talk) · vbm · coi) 13:19, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Born in Bresse

French WP shows La Tranclière as place of birth - looking for references... --Andreas Diemer (talk) 12:43, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

here's one among many, though Al Jazeera says she was born in nearby Bourg-en-Bresse. ɱ (talk) · vbm · coi) 15:32, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

La Tranclière is an administrative member of Bourg-en-Bresse. So I changed place of birth. Thx for the link, it is helpful --Andreas Diemer (talk) 16:38, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

redundant citations

Hey, Ɱ, when I'm actively working with multiple sources and expect to be working for several days, I source each sentence (and insertion of additional info within sentences) as I go, one source at a time, so I can keep track of what came from where. Then after I've added the info from most of the major sources and moved everything to where it makes most sense to me, I'll go back later and reduce redundancy. That way while I'm working I don't end up at some point wondering, darnit, which source was that from? :) --valereee (talk) 16:46, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

Okay, yeah, I've been there. Thanks for the heads up, feel free to revert/undo as needed. ɱ (talk) 16:58, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

Copied thread from Valereee's user talk page

Hello, Valereee! I am planning to expand the article over the next week or so, but as you are by a long way the main contributor so far I feel I should check that you are OK with this. The article is good as it stands, but I think it is possible to make it still better. Glad of any thoughts you may have on this. Best wishes, Tim riley talk 12:59, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

@Tim riley, I am more than okay, I am thrilled! I too think it can be much better! —valereee (talk) 17:13, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Splendid! I'm glad to have your approval. I'll ping you when I've done and perhaps you'll review my changes. Meanwhile, stay well! Tim riley talk 17:21, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Love to, and you also! —valereee (talk) 17:43, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Hello again! I have done my best chez Brazier, and will be glad of any comments or suggestions you have, if you have time and inclination to look in. (The references need a bit of tidying to reconcile my customary Stone-age citation style with your more modern one, but I'll do that in the next few days.) Best wishes, Tim riley talk 19:16, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

@Tim riley I actually had in my to-do list to get this to GA. Would you be interested in nominating it? I'd be happy to help with that process, although there may be the fact there are likely French sources out there that would be good to include. Ping @Kudpung who IIRC might have offered at some time in the past to help check that. —valereee (talk) 21:14, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

I avoid GAN and FAC these days, but if we have the luck to be joined by Kudpung, one of the WP editors I most particularly respect, I could be prodded into rethinking. Tim riley talk 21:21, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

FWIW, I have eaten in La Mère Brazier a couple of times during my 13 years in the region, which is what led me to make a small edit to the article. Since being desysoped by a witch hunt I avoid being pro-active on en'Wiki as much as possible these days with the exception of the occasional comment on a RfC or correcting blatant nonsense on the fly when reading Wikipedia. That said, I'd be happy to make an exception and assist, particularly if Tim were able to be around. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 00:53, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

Dear me! Not one but two refuseniks emerging into view! Well, heigh ho, this one is willing to put the article up for GA, but I'd be very grateful to Kudpung and Valereee for their most ruthless combing over the article before that. For the record, I am puce with envy that Kudpung has eaten at La Mère B. but I have Lyon on my list for when the pandemic is over and we can all travel again. Tim riley talk 22:03, 25 February 2021 (UTC) Tim riley talk 22:03, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

@Tim riley, the article looks fabulous! Moi aussi re:Lyon. I've been there once, but it was only overnight. I'd like to spend a few months there, just eating and cooking. —valereee (talk) 22:35, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

I've done a lot of 'fairly' minor copy edits and added a section on publications. Nevertheless, I may have missed some, the MoS is not my strong point. I hope I haven't overwritten any of Tim's edits. This work was particularly difficult because there is more source material in the body than actual body text. The usual way to do this in cases like these is to give every inline reference a name, and have a separate section at the bottom for the sources themselves. Please ping me when the GAN starts. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 03:34, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

Excellent! I'll tidy the references over the next few days and then put the article up for GA. (There can be a long wait, sometimes, for a reviewer to volunteer. but fingers crossed.) Tim riley talk 12:00, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

Valereee and kudpung – now done. Tim riley talk 15:48, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Eugénie Brazier/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Ritchie333 (talk · contribs) 11:44, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

I'm happy to give this a review, though it may be a day or two before I can give a full assessment. I generally tend to copyedit things as I go, and make comments when I need clarification. Feel free to revert if you disagree on anything, I won't object. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 11:44, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

Lead

• "the first person to attain a total of six Michelin stars" - would "awarded six Michelin stars" scan better?

• It would. Done. Tim riley talk 15:47, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

• I wonder if it's worth clarifying the importance of Alain Ducasse here, in that he was erroneously reported to be the first chef to be awarded six stars, when it was in fact Brazier. I just can't think of an easy way of distilling that down to a few words - the lead is about the right size at the moment for an article this size.

• I think this is reasonably self-explanatory (and neutrally factual rather than commenting on the excision of Brazier from culinary history outside France, which is not for the lead, I think). I'm inclined to let the blue link do the work for anyone who feels inclined. Tim riley talk 15:47, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

• "She learned to cook for her employers, and was taken on as a junior cook" - could this be reworded to avoid the word "cook" twice in quick succession?

• Point taken and suggestions welcome. Not sure "trainee chef" or "junior chef" will quite do. My rule of thumb is that when repetition is the clearest way to get the meaning across to the reader, then repetition is right. Tim riley talk 15:47, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Okay, not a problem - sometimes it's worth just asking the question even if it seems like playing devil's advocate. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:08, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

More to come... Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 12:30, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

• Tim riley how about saying Commis Chef. Or is that already beyond the average reader? Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 09:35, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Looking forward to it. Tim riley talk 15:47, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Cook in Lyon

• "Brazier was taken on by a leading restaurateur in Lyon, Françoise Fillioux (or Filloux),[n 2] one of the Mères lyonnaises,[14] in her kitchen at le Bistrot Fillioux where she employed only women" This sentence looks a bit jumbled. Might it be easier split into two?

• What think you of "Brazier was taken on by a leading restaurateur in Lyon, Françoise Fillioux (or Filloux),[n 2] one of the Mères lyonnaises,[14] in her women-only kitchen at le Bistrot Fillioux? Tim riley talk 20:12, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

• Afterthought: or even omit "one of the Mères lyonnaises"? Tim riley talk 20:44, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Okay, let's go with that. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 10:02, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

• "under her supervision Brazier learned to make some of the most celebrated of the bistrot's dishes" - celebrated by whom, exactly?

• Curnonsky among others. You can still find La Mère Fillioux's chicken on the menu at Paul Bocuse's place. Tim riley talk 20:12, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

• "(When it was cooked, the truffle showed through the white skin of the chicken so that the overall appearance was black-and-white; hence the name.) - would this sit better as a footnote?

• I'd rather keep it in the main text: mentioning either of les Mères without mentioning the volaille demi-deuil would be Hamlet without the prince, and I think a description of the dish really ought to be there in the main text. Tim riley talk 20:12, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

• "From the Bistrot Fillioux, Brazier moved to another restaurant in Lyon, the Brasserie du Dragon, where she was better paid." - do we know if the better pay was the reason she left? Seems likely but the article suggests Fillioux was a demanding employer, which may have been a second reason.

• I can think of other adjectives than "demanding", but no, we don't know. My impression is that Brazier wanted to strike out on her own, but I can't back that up from the sources, which are not extensive. Tim riley talk 20:12, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

La Mère Brazier, Lyon

• "Her capital was 12,000 francs (roughly equivalent to 9,200 euros in 2015 terms)" - any chance of updating this for 2021?

• I can't remember which site I got this from, and I think it probably didn't offer a 2021 equivalent. If you have a recommended site for a 2021 update I'd be v. grateful to know it. Tim riley talk 20:19, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

This an interest problem. We have {{inflation}} for UK and US currencies, but nothing for France, because it would need to know about the 1960 re-evaluation and the currency value at the time of switching to the Euro. Maybe the French Wikipedia has something, as it's more likely to be used there. In any case, none of this is really part of the GA criteria, so it can wait. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 10:12, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

• "and money was tight" - this sounds like a euphemism, could we reword this?

• Done. Tim riley talk 20:19, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

• "she built up the restaurant" - in this case "built up" might imply she got involved with the physical construction of the restaurant building, rather than gaining a popular reputation.

• Done. Tim riley talk 20:19, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

• "Among the dishes she provided were the quenelles" - the second "the" seems redundant here, but I'm not sure.

• I think it's wanted, to make it plain that it is that particular quenelles dish rather than quenelles in general.

Col de la Luère

• "By the end of the decade" - might it be worth clarifying "1920s"? I'm not sure the reader will necessarily have that decade on their mind while they're reading through the article.

• Yes, better. Done. Tim riley talk 20:26, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

• "It is sometimes said that Brazier was the first woman to win three Michelin stars" - sometimes said by whom?

• Well, for a start by some of those seeking to correct the false statement that Ducasse was the first person to win six. Our Wikipedia article on Marie Bourgeois is at fault too in this regard. (I have it on my to-do list). Tim riley talk 20:26, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

War and post-war

• "When the war ended" - was that specifically on or near VE Day, or just generally around that time?

• The source doesn't say. The former would be my guess, but that is only a guess. Tim riley talk 20:31, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Okay, if we don't know anything more from the sources, then we can't be more precise, so that's okay. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 10:03, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

• "Brazier held a celebratory feast at the Col" - who is "the Col" in this context?

• That is how the source phrases it, and I think it is clear to the reader that the Col is the Col de la Luère. Tim riley talk 20:31, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

• "A key player at the Col de la Luère" - key player sounds like a "word to watch", could we reword this?

• Done. Tim riley talk 20:31, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Legacy

• "For the influential food writer Curnonsky" - influential according to whom?

• Auguste Escoffier among others, who called him "France's Prince of Gastronomy". He was founder-president of the Académie des Gastronomes, and even got an obit in our own unfoodie 1950s Times. I don't think we need a citation for the adjective, but will add one if you insist. Tim riley talk 20:37, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

• "Brazier was recognised by a Google Doodle" - is "recognised" the right word here?

• Do you think "celebrated" would be an improvement? Tim riley talk 20:37, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

I've gone with "commemorated", if you think "celebrated" is better, I don't mind that. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 10:05, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Images

• I'm happy with the rationales presented by the non-free images; they are either the lead image or explain context that would be more difficult using text.

I've got no further concerns, so I'll put the review on hold pending the last few bits. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:54, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

No other concerns, so I'll pass the review now. Well done! Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 10:13, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Vaticidalprophet (talk) 21:32, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that Eugénie Brazier was the first chef to be awarded six Michelin stars? Source: "en 1933, Eugénie Brazier fait partie de la première promotion de chefs cuisiniers à obtenir 3 étoiles au Guide Michelin avec Fernand Point et Marie Bourgeois, et mais la seule à obtenir deux fois trois étoiles pour ses deux restaurants." ("In 1933, Eugénie Brazier was part of the first round of chefs to be awarded 3 Michelin stars for Fernand Point and Marie Bourgeois, and also the only one to twice obtain three stars for the two restaurants") ([1])

• Reviewed: Wolfgang Clement

Improved to Good Article status by Tim riley (talk), Kudpung (talk), and Valereee (talk). Nominated by Ritchie333 (talk) at 10:53, 16 March 2021 (UTC).

• That's definitely a GA. Article is nominated in time, well written and referenced to reliable sources and otherwise meets the DYK criteria. A QPQ has been conducted and the hook is short enough, interesting and pretty much cited in the article, though it could maybe be a little more explicit that she was the first (at "The following year, when the guide introduced three-star ratings for the first time, Brazier was awarded six stars, both her restaurants being rated of three-star quality." isn't the most clear, though it's clear enough). Anyways, not enough to hold up promotion. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 23:09, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

• 5200 views, not bad for a 12-hour appearance! —valereee (talk) 13:42, 6 April 2021 (UTC)