Talk:Elizabeth de Burgh

Untitled

Under the "Imprisonment" segment, it's unclear to me when this took place (at first reading I thought that the 12-year-old Elizabeth was RTB's daughter)- could that be cleaned up a little? - Puffy jacket 08:48, 27 Dec 2003 (UTC)

As you can see from the new entry about her, she was a prisoner from about August 1306, when she was captured in northern Scotland (Tain, in Ross-shire) until November 1314, when she was exchanged for the Earl of Hereford, who had been captured at Bannockburn. The negotiations over the prisoner exchange took some months, but the Scots got back all their prisoners still held in England. Elizabeth de Burgh was about 19 when she married Bruce in 1302 as his second wife. He had a daughter, Marjory, by his first marriage, who was captured at the same time as Elizabeth, and was about 12 when they began their 8-year long imprisonment. Proud Angle. Proud Angle

Quotes

Removed this

That is one anglophile interpretation and highly questionable. In fact, the quote would seem to have applied to herself and her husband, the king, not to their followers, and shows no indication that she did not approve and is more properly, "Alas, we are but king and queen of the May!" She had good reason for her concern, being imprisoned by the English for eight years shortly after.

First, your making an assumption about the writer of the previous sentence, assuming bad faith and calling someone an anglophile because they form an opinion contrary to your own. Second, that quote is hardly supportive of her high opinion. King and Queens of the May is derogatory. May is a short happy time, specifically in Celtic culture its the polar opposite to Holloween or Samhain, where that is Dark and about death and the end of the year, Beltaine (early May) is about life and the birth of the new year. The May Queen (which comes from Beltaine) is a make believe queen, beautiful but without any real lasting power. Therefor, shes saying that they are ruling over a fantasy, not reality, and that reality is doomed to pounce on them. And, its already been mentioned, in more complicated terms than necassary, that she was imprisoned for 8 years, theres no point in restating it. If you want to mention that she was imprisoned for 8 years and that made her wary of the english, mention it as a summary of the she was moved from one castle to another part. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.112.16.133 (talk) 18:18, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I'm putting that quote back in, supporting that she had a low opinion of the rebellion. I also don't see where you get off calling someone an anglophile for that opinion. Let it be known, I am anything but an Anglophile, I am half-Scots, half-French and bitter beer makes me sick. But I also try to keep reality in my understanding of things, I drink Innis & Gunn because its a good tasting beer (relatively so even when warm, which is rare), not because its Scottish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.112.16.133 (talk) 18:24, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

I say that because you cannot know that she DISAPPROVED. They were about to go into a huge war--one they had little chance to win. How do you know that her comment wasn't an expression of fear. She had reason enough to be afraid. That is at least as reasonable reaction and it is an expression of an opinion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JScotia

Saying that she was afraid and that she disapproved are very different things. If you want to put in an explanation of the Queen and King of the May for the reader, I think that's reasonable. But saying that she thought they had no lasting power, quite accurate, and that she totally disapproved are two totally different things.

I'm taking the opinion out. That she was saying they had no real or lasting power is a reasonable assumption. Beyond that, it does not say what her opinion was. And giving English sources for the opinion of the wife of King Robert Bruce does look a bit like an anglophile, but I apologize if the reaction offended you. Considering their hatred of him and the Scots, do you really expect anything else?

JScotia (talk) 17:28, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm also taking out the Mortimer quote. If you want to put it back in, please include a page number so that it can be verified. I don't intend to look through the whole book for that quote.

JScotia (talk) 17:33, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

References

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