Talk:Donut hole

Requested move 26 July 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to donut hole. Per WP:SINGULAR. (closed by non-admin page mover) Sceptre (talk) 23:48, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

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Donut holes → Doughnut hole – While an argument has been made for this article's current name due to strong national ties, the article should be moved to doughnut hole because it should be kept in line with its "parent" article, doughnut, which has been there since 2002 with only a short break to a bracketed disambiguator; article titles are generally singular in form; using vocabulary common to all varieties of English is preferable (and while "donut" is generally an American spelling, "doughnut" is used universally). Finally, I'm not convinced that a doughnut hole has that strong national ties to the USA. It may be a predominantly North American food, but not exclusively American. I will notify Talk:Doughnut of this discussion. Sdrqaz (talk) 07:56, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

• @Sdrqaz Don't think a move discussion was necessary, I'm gonna move the article there (as the AfC publisher) if no one makes an objection soon. See Boston cream doughnut for an example of "doughnut" and Oat for an example of the singular form. :3 F4U (they/it) 11:47, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

  I thought that it could prove controversial (there's a page-view online search results argument to be made for donut too), so I decided to open an RM instead of moving it myself. Sdrqaz (talk) 13:20, 26 July 2023 (UTC) – correction at 16:56, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

  How the hell did we get to here I thought this would be uncontroversial 😭😭😭😭 :3 F4U (they/it) 03:46, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

• Support the move, the redirect will suffice for those who spell it "donut". (Found an interesting examination of the two spellings here; not RS, just interesting.) Schazjmd (talk) 15:20, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
• Support. Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. "Donut hole" is the most common spelling per the Google Ngrams. Also, per WP:RETAIN we don't switch from one version of English to another. But it should be Moved to Donut hole per WP:SINGULAR. Rreagan007 (talk) 15:31, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

  I think that it's worth noting that some of the "donut hole" results on Google may be skewed by Medicare Part D coverage gap – the Medicare "donut hole" features quite prominently when I search online with inverted commas, anyway. I'm not an expert with using N-grams, so is there a way of excluding those non-food results? Sdrqaz (talk) 16:56, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

• Support move to Donut hole per WP:SINGULAR, WP:COMMONNAME and WP:RETAIN. WPscatter ^t/_c 16:15, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

  I'm unsure about the applicability of retain here. What are we retaining? The "doughnut" spelling is recommended by multiple American style guides and has very close usage to "donut" per ngrams. (ngram 2) :3 F4U (they/it) 16:52, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

• Comment: There seems to be a bit of a false association here: while "donut" is a generally American spelling, that does not mean "doughnut" is not American. From what I've read, "doughnut" is a universal spelling – this isn't colour/color, where there is a clear divide between British and American spelling. From the AP Stylebook, an American style book: Others may call it a donut. But doughnut is proper style.
  As for VAR and RETAIN argumemts, this seems like a good fit for WP:TITLEVAR: "a less common but non-nation-specific term is selected to avoid having to choose between national varieties". Best wishes, Sdrqaz (talk) 16:56, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
• Comment on retain: If we are going to apply WP:RETAIN here actually, the original article (before it was draftified and republished), was at Doughnut holes - See here: [1] :3 F4U (they/it) 17:26, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

I have changed my vote to support in light of this information. Rreagan007 (talk) 02:08, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

• Move to donut hole per SINGULAR. This topic does not have strong national ties, and so the spelling should simply reflect the WP:COMMONNAME among English speakers (and Wikipedia readers), which "donut" clearly satisfies. RETAIN doesn't apply, and should not be an anchor strung around the neck of good sense. -- Netoholic @ 03:45, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose move to "doughnut hole" as "donut holes" are not actually a product, but a marketing term introduced by Dunkin' Donuts (who adamantly spell doughnuts "donuts"). So best to keep it in its original spelling. It's not merely national ties, it is company ties. PS Prior to the Dunkin' campaign, a "doughnut/donut hole" was actually a reference to the hole, not a pastry. And references to "buying doughnut holes" would be a common joke about being cheated or being on a diet. Walrasiad (talk) 10:20, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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✠ SunDawn ✠ (contact) 09:55, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

They aren't holes.

The lump of dough that made up the type of donut called a donut hole was never the exact piece of dough that was “punched out" to make a ring-shaped donut. The name and the marketing implied that, but it was never the case. 2600:4040:5D30:4800:4C9E:756F:DA4:38D4 (talk) 20:15, 23 October 2023 (UTC)