Talk:Deftones/Archive 8

DRN case

(another bot archive, reposted the last few comments)

• This discussion won't go anywhere unless other voices get involved. And personally, at this point it's hard for me to assume good faith of Trascendence, who time after time refuses to acknowledge the numerous flaws we have pointed out in his arguments and sources (as evidenced most recently in the comment above). Any outside viewpoints are greatly welcomed. WesleyDodds (talk) 10:10, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

• I have a better idea: why don't you specify wich are "these flaws" in my sources that your guys talk so much about. Trascendence (talk) 05:24, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

• Okay. I will seek some additional outside views to help on the matter. Additionally, I think it's a good idea to set up a page somewhere and put there the sources alongside the useful information that could be extratced from there. Something like this may help. Then you can easily evaluate and discuss what each one of the sources say, separately... — ΛΧΣ²¹ 05:51, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

• I like the idea of the sources page, will try to set one up soon. HrZ (talk) 15:19, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
• Let's see what happens. Trascendence (talk) 06:09, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

• Had a lot less time to do this than I thought, will hopefully get something started within the hour. However, after then I won't be active on Wikipedia at all until January 3-4. I'm assuming most of the involved editors will be busy over the festive period as well. My opinion on the matter hasn't changed though. @ΛΧΣ any luck seeking other users to comment? HrZ (talk) 15:39, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Source

here's a brand new source denying them as nu-metal

http://hamptonroads.com/2013/03/deftones-numetal-tag-still-anchor I call the big one bitey 22:53, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

That source doesn't entirely deny Deftones as a nu-metal band. From the source you provided: "The first thing that comes to many people's minds when they think of the Deftones? Nu-metal." And also: "...of all the bands that were - fairly or unfairly - cast as nu-metal acts, the Deftones is the one that might have 'aged' the best." This article, and specifically these two passages, clearly acknowledges that Deftones are/were widely recognized as a nu metal band, but argues that maybe they shouldn't be labeled as such. I think this accurately summarizes the debate that's been going on at this talk page for... a year now? There are countless mainstream sources that label Deftones as nu-metal, and a handful of minor articles arguing that say maybe that label doesn't really fit. So what's the best way to represent that Deftones are widely recognized as nu-metal but some people disagree with this label? That's really where the debate got held up. And as I said before, I personally disagree that Deftones are nu-metal; I'm just trying to apply wikipolicies like WP:NPOV and WP:WEIGHT to the information and sources provided. Fezmar9 (talk) 23:20, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Nu metal

I strongly think that this article should have nu metal in the genre field. At least say "nu metal (early)" since their old stuff is nu metal. I mean really it mixes alt rock and metal and hip hop together and there are extremely reliable sources from musical geniuses/journalists and authors who prove their old sound as nu metal. I don't know why people don't call them nu metal. At least the 90s stuff. If you listen to songs like 7 Words, Nosebleed, Lotion and stuff then you'll think nu metal in your mind. I mean even 7 words has rapping in the song and even turntables. I bet the reason why they're rejected as nu metal by fans all the time is because they don't like that term or maybe they haven't listened to those songs and probably haven't listen to their pre-White Pony stuff. Can't we at least try adding nu metal? When I went on the talk page and some guy listed sources "Denying" them as nu metal, a couple were unreliable, but the reliable ones SPECIFICALLY said they were nu metal in their early years but in the early 2000s they abandoned that sound, saying they quit nu metal possibly in like 2000 or something. So thus, they ain't denying the band as nu metal. We should add it.

Stgw (talk) 01:15, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Intro in... odd...

The intro states: " The group's original bassist was Chi Cheng, who fell in a coma following a 2008 car accident and died in 2013." Don't get me wrong, I've been a fan for years and I have a great repect for Cheng and the band, but it seems that the recent death is something more emotional rather than encyclopedia material... If we listed every band that had a death in the the band, it usually ends up in the body of the article, not the intro. The Deftones article is about the band as a whole. While the death has upset many of us, I do not really find it necessary for the intro. I have not taken it out because I do not want to upset anyone and I'd much rather discuss this first. 98.198.85.83 (talk) 11:26, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Genre

i think Deftones should also be labeled as nu metal, post-metal, and shoegazing. If you look at their albums, some of them are labeled as nu metal, shoegazing, and post-metal. 2:13 March 29, 2013 (UTC)

Do you have a reference to support your opinion? Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:45, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

It's true, they are nu metal too. They created the sound along with Korn and Limp Bizkit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.191.241.198 (talk) 08:27, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Alternative metal and experimental rock best reflects their current work. Only ½ of their first 3 albums are nu metal, and only a few of their songs can be called "post-metal", "shoegazing", "dream pop" etc. I call the big one bitey 08:54, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

There are about 20 sources in support of nu metal in the (many) previous archived discussions. Post-metal and shoegaze were also shown to be a minority opinion. HrZ (talk) 14:06, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

There are reliable sources saying they're shoegazing, post rock, and stuff. So I think it's good because they're sourced.

Stgw (talk) 01:11, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Not enough for the infobox. There are a substantial amount sources for alternative metal, experimental and nu metal, but the sources for the likes of post rock/metal and such are few, we would be giving them undue weight to include them (in the infobox, a mention in the article is fine). As for the subject of nu metal, it was removed without consensus during the (very long) post-metal discussion. The discussion on nu metal went stale but there is no standing consensus on the genre, but there were more editors in favour (think it was about 3-5), due to the sources in support, than against (one editor). If we can finally get some sort of consensus on it then that would be great, but it's not worth another discussion that lasts months like before. HrZ (talk) 14:35, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

If there are 20 sources calling them nu metal by people who very well know that genre, nu metal authors, and even magazines who've experienced nu metal, then nu metal should go on the infobox. I mean those sources proved them nu metal by describing how nu metal their early stuff is. All the sources people say that deny them as nu metal are just saying that the band left the nu metal sound in the early 2000s, which says that they used to be nu metal. Also, if there's more people supporting nu metal versus only 1 guy against nu metal. I think it's fine. People who deny them as nu metal probably never listened to their 1990s stuff. Some people think White Pony was their debut even though they were quite famous in the late 1990s. One person disagreeing isn't enough. At least he should listen to songs like 7 Words or Lotion or Nosebleed. Let's just add it. I think it'll be fine. Let's just put {nu metal (early)}. Let's also describe their style change in the body. Nu metal has dozens of sources.

Stgw (talk) 23:58, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Fine with me. I call the big one bitey 00:19, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

It is preferable not to include genre disclaimers in the infobox - "(early)". If it needs to be clarified, it should be done so in the musical style section of the article with enough sources supporting it, not the infobox. HrZ (talk) 15:02, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Btw here's ANOTHER source supporting the opinion that the bands early work is nu metal, and that the band has evolved past that sound http://blogs.houstonpress.com/rocks/2013/03/deftones_frank_delgado_intervi.php I call the big one bitey 22:33, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Would be better for the discussion, that the users that believe that "nu metal" must be present in the infobox bring sources, we had a discussion about it some months ago, and ended with the exclusion of "nu metal" due more than 20 sources disagreeing on the band being such: [1], until then please do not modify the infobox. Trascendence (talk) 03:57, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

There was no prior consensus on nu metal (you were the only editor disagreeing on its inclusion, re-read past discussions if you believe otherwise), you did not provide any quotations from the 20 sources "disagreeing" and after a number of editors checked (including myself), only a few seemed to actually back your statement. That discussion went stale, no consensus was agreed with the involved editors. A new one has since happened and it was agreed that it should be included and it has since been added (well over a week ago now). If you disagree, provide the sources and the quotes to back your statement. Some sources, and quotations (can provide more quotes if needed) in favour of nu metal:

Nu metal issue of Guitar World [2]; The Encyclopedia of Heavy Metal [3]; SPIN [4], [5], [6]; The A to X of Alternative Music [7]; Unleashed: The Story of Tool [8]; Turkish Metal: Music, Meaning and Morality in a Muslim Society [9]; Brave Nu World (which is already referenced in the article) [10] Time [11]; Pockit Rockit Music Finder [12]; Dr. Martens: the story of an icon [13]; Hail! Hail! Rock'n'Roll: The Ultimate Guide to the Music, the Myths and the Madness [14]; Muse: Inside the Muscle Museum [15]. Some from the web: Rock Sound [16]; PopMatters [17]; Billboard [18]; Chicago Tribune [19]; Consequence of Sound [20]; Entertainment Weekly [21]; Los Angeles Times [22], [23].

Tool were repelled by elements of the nu-metal sound and attracted by others. As Maynard observed, "I think the Deftones do a pretty good job.", Grunge also spawned the success of American-dominated nu metal in the late 1990's, when bands like Korn, Slipknot, Staind, System of a Down, or Deftones merged their death and thrash metal roots with the sounds of alternative rock., Nu metal. Bands: Korn, Linking Park, Deftones, In the red corner, a cluth of Korn/Slayer-inspired nu-metal bands each as subtle as a sledgehammer wake-up call, ranging from the good (Deftones, System of a Down)..., With a slew of mediocre nu-metal bands popping up, stalwart metal mongers Deftones have managed to stay on top of the heap artistically, if not commercially. HrZ (talk) 16:10, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Several of your sources can't be confirmed or state that the band already moved from nu metal. Finally, there has never been a consensus regarding the inclusion of nu metal in the infobox, there have been discussions since the genre was added in it.

Sources that oppose to the idea of Deftones being nu metal

I did a research in the archive and i brought this back:

[24]"They’d finally done it; here was an album that was undeniably innovative, frequently amazing, and indisputably unlike nu-metal" [25] "The point is clear: for their fourth album, Sacramento's doomiest have left nu-metal behind for rather more emotional territory" [26] "Deftones have been pegged as everything from alternative metal, to post-grunge, to the even more inaccurate description of “nu-metal”
[27] "It seems positively ridiculous to think of Deftones in terms of the nu metal scene they were lumped into"
[28] "Though they successfully shook off any nu-metal shackles with said third album"
[29] "Nu-metal was hitting its high point during this time, and the Deftones were unwillingly lumped into that genre"
[30] "Though the band rose to fame during the nü-metal phenomenon (and, unfortunately, became lumped in with it)"
[31] "people look back on the album as either the point the band moved away from nu metal..."
[32] "They took their nu-metal positioning and flipped it on its head"
[33] "The record's finely realized textures stand apart from most of their nu-metal counterparts"
[34] "Deftones were able to escape the moronic nu metal mire"
[35] "they never really fit the Nu-metal mould. Their music was too layered and atmospheric while Chino Moreno’s lyrics were too poetic and cryptic for the average meathead who listened to Papa Roach and Disturbed"
[36] “I thought we really separated ourselves from that nu-metal thing with White Pony (the band’s third record in 2001),” he says. “I think we’re way beyond any of that; a lot of those types of bands, for the most part not too many of them are around. We’re still growing and making records"
[37] "On White Pony, their third album, Deftones have created an record of breathtaking contrasts, setting themselves even further apart from their so-called 'nu metal' counterparts"
[38] " The Deftones were always one of the best bands saddled with the “nu metal” tag. It’s really unfair to lump them in with asinine groups like Limp Bizkit and Disturbed"
[39] "Abe Cunningham’s thunderous yet musical and precise drumming helped set the band miles apart from the many nu-metal acts they’re often, and for the most part unfairly, lumped in with" [40] "now completely breaking away from the nu-metal label they were unfairly tarnished with and standing out from the cookie cutter bands that were popping up at the time"
[41] "Often lumped in, unfairly, with some of nu-metal's most offensive acts, Deftones..."
[42] "Despite occasionally being lumped (wrongly) into the nu-metal movement, Sacramento alternative headbangers Deftones have enjoyed a long, prosperous career since forming in 1988"

All those, added to the ones brought in by other editors outweight the confirmable ones that support the nu metal tag. They also leave more than clear that the specialized press opposes to the idea of the band being labeled as nu metal, confirming the genre for irrelevant, therefore it shouldn't be in the infobox. It is mentioned on the musical style section, and on it's early albums, which is were it belongs. Trascendence (talk) 03:02, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

That's pretty much irrelevant since i'm 100% sure that the number of sources calling them nu metal far outweigh the ones denying them as it, or the ones calling them other genres. Just google Deftones and check out all the news article's about Chi's death, nearly all of them label Deftones as nu metal, which just goes to show that the majority of the mainstream media consider Deftones to be a nu metal band. I don't necessarily agree with them being tagged as nu metal, but that's what the sources say, and on Wikipedia sources trump anyone's personal opinion. I call the big one bitey (talk) 06:08, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

"Several of your sources can't be confirmed or state that the band already moved from nu metal." - As I recall, you were the one that could't confirm the sources. Quotes/screenshots can be produced, doesn't make them any less reliable. Moved from nu metal doesn't deny that they are or were, or that the editors oppose the genre. "Finally, there has never been a consensus regarding the inclusion of nu metal in the infobox, there have been discussions since the genre was added in it." There were discussions on the constant changing on the infobox without discussion, hence the note that states to discuss changes first. You added post-metal without discussion, then after it was discussed, ou removed nu metal without discussing aswell, then reverted its re-addition telling others to discuss instead. As for your sources:

[43]"They’d finally done it; here was an album that was undeniably innovative, frequently amazing, and indisputably unlike nu-metal" - Source is stating that this one album is not nu metal. Doesn't deny that they are.

[44] "The point is clear: for their fourth album, Sacramento's doomiest have left nu-metal behind for rather more emotional territory" - Still implies that they were nu metal (instead of stating that they are not), and, again, refers to one album.

[45] "people look back on the album as either the point the band moved away from nu metal..." - pretty much like the previous source, still implies they are nu metal.

[46] "They took their nu-metal positioning and flipped it on its head" - Seems to actually support nu metal.

[47] "The record's finely realized textures stand apart from most of their nu-metal counterparts" - Doesn't state they aren't nu metal, just the album stands apart from others.

[48] "now completely breaking away from the nu-metal label they were unfairly tarnished with and standing out from the cookie cutter bands that were popping up at the time" - Unsure if this source actually fits the critiera for reliable sources. Couldn't find any info from the site.

This significantly reduces the amount of sources that appear to deny them as nu metal, it comes across as a minority opinion. Doing a quick search of google, I found more sources in favour:

Rolling Stone - nu-metal pioneers the Deftones

Hollywood Life - Chi was a founding member of the Deftones, who were integral in leading the nu-metal movement in the 90′s.

Houston Press - Deftones were the best band to come out of the nu-metal scene of the late '90s.

VH1 - Former Deftones bassist Chi Cheng died yesterday at 42 years old. One of the nu-metal band’s founding members, Cheng was left in a semi-conscious state after a car accident in November 2008.

Nashville Scene - Chino laid it on thick with his nu-metal Jeff Buckley purr.

Chicago Tribune - With a slew of mediocre nu-metal bands popping up, stalwart metal mongers Deftones have managed to stay on top of the heap artistically, if not commercially.

Chicago Sun Times - The most innovative group to emerge from the late-'90s crop of nu-metal or rap- rock bands, Sacramento's Deftones have created an enduring sound out of ...

Beaver County Times - Nu metal groups like Linkin Park. Slipknot. Staind and the Deftones achieved enormous suc cess last year

The News Tribune - You'll likely hear songs off Deftones' new album, "Saturday Night Wrists," when the nu-metal band performs at 8 tonight at The Fenix

Lawrence Journal-World - Deftones remain humble about their role as nu metal's most interesting band

NME - Staind have pipped nu-metal rivals DEFTONES to the top slot in this week's US BILLBOARD ALBUM CHART.

New York Times - Popular nu-metal band The Deftones take a vacation to Hawaii and bring their acoustic guitars along in this video.

That was from a quick search. Add them to the other 20+ sources and there are a significant amount of reliable sources stating that Deftones are nu metal. As I have said before, I don't believe them to be nu metal, but as stated by I call the big one bitey, this isn't about personal points of view, it's about sources, and there are certainly plenty in support of nu metal. HrZ (talk) 14:32, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

The best solution would be to leave out "nu-metal" and keep "alternative metal," considering "nu-metal" FALLS UNDER the category of "alternative metal." I've never understood this constantly re-emerging argument, as "nu-metal" is, more or less, a "sub-genre" of "alternative metal." "Alternative metal" already covers "nu-metal." Madreterra (talk) 23:57, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

HrZ, how is possible that sources saying things like "Despite occasionally being lumped (wrongly) into the nu-metal movement" or "people look back on the album as either the point the band moved away from nu metal" don't support the idea of the band not being it? they still bring more support to they idea of they not being than to they being it. As of now, there are more quoted sources that refute the band being nu metal than ones saying it is (and most are outdated). Trascendence (talk) 03:58, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

This is another issue with placing "nu-metal" in the category box. Not only is "nu-metal" already covered by "alternative metal," but most sources stating that Deftones are "nu-metal" are either from the very start of the group's career, when it was common for critics at the time to call all recently emerging "alternative metal/rock" bands "nu-metal," or the sources explicitly state that Deftones are beyond the genre, wronging classified as "nu-metal," or have "moved away" from the genre.Madreterra (talk) 17:20, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Actually you'll find back in the 90s most nu metal bands were just called alternative metal, it's only more recently the media have started labelling bands nu metal, a term which basically didn't exist in the late 90s/early 00s when nu metal was most popular. Also to say nu metal shouldn't be included in the infobox since it's a subgenre of alternative metal is like saying Nirvana shouldn't be labelled as grunge since they are already tagged as alternative rock which covers grunge. Everyone here should see the the Alice in Chains page, a lot of editors disagree with them being labelled grunge and their new albums aren't even taggeed with that, but it's included since there are numerous sources supporting it. I call the big one bitey (talk) 21:52, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

According to the Nu metal article itself (and it's respective sources) the term nu metal have been used since mid 90s and it's classed as a part of alternative metal, no reason to include it as of now. Trascendence (talk) 03:45, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Just to point out, Wikipedia articles themselves can't be used as sources for other articles, if you can bring the sources and relevent information from them, that would be great. But, it does seem like we are finally getting somewhere. To your prior comment, your previous arguements have been that sources exist that oppose the idea of Deftones being labeled nu metal. Yes, you have have provided sources that say they were "unfairly lumped in" with the genre. However, you can't state that sources saying "they moved on from" the genre are opposing it. They are admitting that they were nu metal in the first place but have moved on with recent releases (at the very least, they support both arguements). But they are not in great quantity, making them a minority opinion. As proven with my last post, there are sources as recent as this year that still label the band as nu metal (pioneers, integral to the movement, best band from that genre) and a quick search will turn up more sources in support than against. As far as I'm aware, the general practice is overarching genres first (alternative metal in this case), followed by sub-genres (nu metal). But much like "it's covered by [genre] so there's is no need to include it", I haven't seen a guideline that supports it. If this discussion has proved anything, it's that nu metal is significant to the band's history, much more than alternative metal and experimental rock. HrZ (talk) 14:51, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

• I was asked by HrZ to look at this discussion--like most genre discussions, it's a bit pointless, in my opinion, but then, I grew up during NWOBHM. It appears to me that "nu metal" is valid, and adding "early" in the infobox does not strike me as a big problem. "Alternative metal" is verified as well. In my opinion, "Nu metal (early), alternative metal" is fine and does not clutter up the infobox needlessly. HrZ, I don't know if this is what you were looking for, but that's my opinion. As for the other genres mentioned early on, this discussion hasn't focused much on it and no sources were brought up to support it. "Experimental rock" might as well be dropped since there is no plethora of sources, apparently, supporting it--and let's face it, we should not get silly by listing a half a dozen genres that in the end are all sub-genres of one. The main text already clarified plenty, to an almost ridiculous extent. Thank you, Drmies (talk) 15:54, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

An opinion is all that I asked for, whether it was for or against. Thank you for the input. HrZ (talk) 15:59, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

If we're gonna remove experimental rock (which i would support) then how about alternative rock in the infobox? since there are a plethora of sources old and new labelling them as that genre, which i'm sort of surprised to see is not included in the infobox along with nu metal. I call the big one bitey (talk) 16:09, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

This is getting way out of hand, for one, experimental rock has sources: [[49]], next, for HrZ, i clearly stated that the Nu metal article WITH it's respective sources. Finally the sources opposing Deftones being nu metal (whether saying that they never were, or that they moved on) in no way support nu metal either, you are trying to find a void, but is one that don't favors you at all. By wikipedia guidelines the infobox must include only the most prominent genres and the most general ones, not something that they only played in one album decades ago, controversial genres must be kept away of the infobox (and you can't deny that nu metal is controversial and clearly too debated between the press), but talked about in the body of the article and on it's respective albums. Trascendence (talk) 04:03, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

What guidelines are you talking about (I've heard this reasoning from others, but they never provide the link)? I just checked some Wikiprojects for infoboxes and Template:Infobox musical artist, all I've found is "the genre or genres of music performed by the act. Aim for generality." No mention of controversial anywhere or that they must be general or prominent. The fact is whether or not the sources, that state they moved on, support nu metal doesn't matter, they don't oppose it either like you claim. and you also seem to be ignoring the fact that there are still far more sources (making it a fairly prominent genre) in support than against, making it a minority opinion. And if we remove genres because there is a slight debate on whether or it actually applies to them, then there is quite a lot of cleaning up to do on Wikipedia articles. HrZ (talk) 14:45, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

It's implied on "generality", it's like when, some months back i wanted to add post-metal to the infobox because three albums are considered such, however, i realized that only a part of the discography it's not enough to add it to the infobox of the entire band, also, if there is or not more sources supporting nu metal is something that is yet to be confirmed, and even if that were true, it stills being a genre that belongs only to their first two records, not what they do today, and it stills being a genre too debated by specialized press to be added in the main infobox. Trascendence (talk) 00:13, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

That's a lot to imply with generality; don't include controversial genres, only prominent/general genres. The reason post-metal was rejected was not because it was only a part of the discography, there were only about 2 or 3 sources that actually supported post-metal at all (the rest being post-rock, shoegaze or metalgaze). A couple of sources doesn't make a prominent genre and is definitly a minority opinion that shouldn't be in the infobox. "it stills being a genre that belongs only to their first two records" - That is your opinion and not the opinion of the sources that state that they are a nu metal band (again, as recently as this year). Based on evidence, it is hardly a debate, it is a minority opinion, you have only provided about 10 sources that kind of support what you say (you did state you had 20 before). Whereas there are well over 30 (including 2 published sources on the subject of nu metal and 1 on heavy metal) that clearly state Deftones are a nu metal band, and more can be found quite easily, and do say so not because of one or two albums (which is, again, your opinion). Wikipedia aims to present competing views in proportion to their representation in reliable sources on the subject.. You are using a minority opinion to keep out of the infobox a prominent genre of the band. HrZ (talk) 15:01, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

You are missing an important point regarding post-metal: That there is no sources denying Deftones being a post-metal band, only sources that agree (unlike nu metal that is way too controversial when it comes to this band). I've brought 18 sources that deny nu metal plus other two sources bring in by other editors ([50], [51]) that's it, 20 sources denying them being nu-metal against 11 saying they are (most outdated), if you want more, here you go:
[52] "Sam tracks down Serj Tankian of System Of A Down and Deftones' Chino Moreno, revealing their profound dissatisfaction with being lumped in with the nu metal movement, and how they managed to break the shackles that befell so many of their contemporaries"
[53] "What's key about Deftones' ascent is that even though they were lumped in with nu metal – love it or hate it, it defined a time and place as much as grunge did, except with far more commercial success and visibility – they publicly disavowed it, despite being as obvious an influence on as many bands as, say, Linkin Park or Korn"
[54] Title: "Deftones overcoming the nu metal label"

As of now, there are more sources denying the nu metal tag than ones that agree on it. Trascendence (talk) 03:40, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Yeah well those all say they were nu metal in their early years and after the 90s they abadndoned the sound. Seriously, and when they say they were unfairly lumped with nu metal, that does NOT mean they are directly denying the band as nu metal. They say nu metal was bad but Deftones were good and shouldn't be compared to likes of korn/slipknot/etc but that doesn't mean they ain't nu metal. They ARE. Listen to 7 words or something. It's NU METAL. it has hip hop in it. even 7 words has rapping in it. Listen to nosebleed, lotion etc. The reason why people call them nu metal is cause they rejected the label. That's why everyone denies Acacia strain as deathcore, because the singer rejected the label. Just cause the band rejects the label, doesn't mean they aren't nu metal. If they move from the genre, that obviously means they were nu metal (EARLY). A7X were originally metalcore and their page says metalcore (early) in the box. We can't remove metalcore. We can add nu metal (Early). also you're the only one who won't agree to add nu metal anyways. I mean really, how can they not be nu metal when you hear hip hop ful on in 7 words, lotion, etc and 7 words has rapping in it, korn guitar riffs. Their old stuff sounds a ton like Korn. Even Chino collaborated with korn before in the 90s, in the 2000s, that's when they stopped playing nu metal, doesn't stop the fact that they were nu metal (early). and deftones also were known as one of the bands who set up the nu metal movement, whether people can't accept they were nu metal or not, they are nu metal. Even rolling stone call them nu metal, and rolling stone are some the best reviewers, even nu metal authors who knew everything to define nu metal, knew the definition of the genre, etc described them as nu metal and proved it by saying what they sound like.

Listen to their 90s stuff.

Metal elements from alt metal? CHECK Grunge/alternative rock sounds? Check Down tuned guitars? check Hip hop elements and rhythms? Check DJ? Check

It's obvious their old stuff is nu metal. Seriously, people who deny them as nu metal actually think white pony is their debut, or at least never heard their 90s stuff, or they can't call them nu metal cuz the band rejected it. Here are many sources describing them nu metal.

• [www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1004911,00.html Time magazine says: The Deftones are hailed as the best nu-metal has to offer. There's nothing like grading on a curve.]
• [55]
• [56]
• They even say how they have hip hop beats and even compared the band to Korn, this was a review from the 90s
• It directly proves their first or second album to be nu metal
• This source is reliable and shows proof that they were nu metal. It explains why they are and what nu metal is and how they fit the genre, no matter what the band thinks.

Seriously, let's just add "nu metal (early)", which will imply they USED TO BE nu metal, but later stopped. It's fine. Adding early is used all the time. Trust me, it's okay. And even people will need to listen to their debut or second album and the song 7 words and stuff, they'll finally be convinced Deftones are a nu metal band. And there's more people agreeing than disagreeing here anyways.

Stgw (talk) 23:55, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

The sources that state that the band "moved away of nu metal" don't support nu metal at all, the most they do is to imply that the band was nu metal in 2 of their albums, wich in no way is relevant enough considering that the band have released 7 albums on it's carrer. It's the same reason for post-hardcore and post-metal not being mentioned. As of now, the sources that deny nu metal outnumber the sources that considers them so (24 against 15 at best) therefore nu metal is out. Trascendence (talk) 03:27, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Actually a lot call them and saying they were lumped wit nu metal doesn't mean they aren't it says they are an exception for nu metal. Also that's why add the early tag like u do on a7x and Soulfly see their genres — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.236.230.146 (talk) 22:03, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

The best that these sources do is to say that Deftones were nu metal on their first two albums, wich is not enough to add it in the infobox, we also have no need to follow the example of any other article. We need to follow the wikipedia policies and guidelines, wich aim for generality. Trascendence (talk) 03:18, 5 May 2013 (UTC)