Talk:Deaths in July 2023

Hettie Simmons Love

Should her Ivy League MBA notability be included in her entry or not? (I think it is crucial.) Discussion required, I'd say, given edits made today. Thanks. Ref ^(chew)(do) 08:14, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

I think it frankly brings nothing to the reader who is not familiar with this League. If we go for this kind of concreteness, there would also be room for "first female senator", "first LGTBI judge of the Supreme Court" or "first African athlete in the Norwegian soccer league". I don't see it as a bad idea, but it could be an overwhelming page. _-_Alsor (talk) 08:42, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

I am usually wary of any "first X in Y" claims in Recent Deaths. I am also mindful that our guidelines require "what subject was noted for". In the case of Simmons Love, gaining the first Ivy League MBA was her only notability. Just being a "graduate and businesswoman" is not notable; there are millions of those in the world. (In fact, I don't think she was ever a businesswoman.) To answer Alsoriano97, the senators, judges and footballers are already notable by virtue of those positions. Their "first X in Y' role is not essential to justify notability. This is one case where being the First X is an essential descriptor. WWGB (talk) 10:15, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Uhm…good point. Let’s what the others think. _-_Alsor (talk) 13:07, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

In my opinion, including one "first" that is absolutely their only claim to notability won't upset the "concrete" mixture you refer to. You can apply some rules rigidly here (Rule of Three, et al), but others must be decided on a case-by-case basis, otherwise the reason for inclusion will look flimsy and unclear upon first glance at the list. If not for her "first", why else would she be included here? Reaching 100 years old is not a notable achievement - that's just pure luck. Ref ^(chew)(do) 14:54, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Just wanted to say that the first African in the Norwegian football league was Saihou Sarr.Nukualofa (talk) 05:42, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Nukualofa: Why? Ref ^(chew)(do) 07:08, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Because of the example _-_Alsor mentioned above. Nukualofa (talk) 01:41, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

It's now been shown that Simmons Love was "one of the first", preceded by Arnett Frisby five years earlier [1]. I'm starting to question why this woman warrants an article. WWGB (talk) 07:54, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

You know where that has to lead though. The article seems iron-clad, but could be submitted for deletion process. (Not by me.) Ref ^(chew)(do) 12:11, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Sinéad O'Connor

Just giving heads up that there's firm disagreement over her date of death. I supplied a The Guardian source that unambiguously stated it was today but it was refused. So despite it being linked here, that's why she is still holding a death announced tag. Rusted AutoParts 01:21, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

As it's clearly the only source so far claiming to know her date of death (only in the byline at the bottom, mind), it's highly likely they have made either a mistake or an assumption. They're not perfect, as is the case with all of us. "Death announced" is fine by me, I'm sure we can all wait. Ref ^(chew)(do) 08:54, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

The issue is resolved at her article as DoD 26th, and the entry here now reflects that. Ref ^(chew)(do) 17:12, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

And - no it's not resolved, due to a statement made by the London coroner of "date of death is unknown" [2]. See her article for any further developments. Ref ^(chew)(do) 22:18, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Can I just remind editors that the correct form is to get changes agreed at her article (such as date of death) and then mirror that in the entry here? Horse before cart won't do. Ref ^(chew)(do) 21:51, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

And so it appears to have been resolved once more. Ref ^(chew)(do) 22:44, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Betty Ann Bruno

I truly disagree that exception to include her Wizard of Oz role is merited. It's still an uncredited role, one where she played amongst a collective of other actors. If she happened to be the last surviving actor in the film, or last surviving Munchkin perhaps, but that's not the case. Outlets tend to grab at the bigger name projects a deceased participant in a film or show worked on, but when you look into it they're either uncredited or not even listed in any capacity as part of that production. To submit an acting career where she held one uncredited role as being on even footing as her years long Emmy winning journalism career I don't find to be very sensical. Rusted AutoParts 05:17, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Her article very prominently features references to her brief acting career, so I don't see how we can avoid mentioning it in her description here, if consensus eventually holds for it to be included. I have no personal intention of campaigning against it. Ref ^(chew)(do) 08:37, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

And yet she is listed here: Betty Ann Cain, like other Munchkin actors unknown to the Wikiworld. Wyliepedia @ 13:27, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

I’ve scanned that link high and low, I legit cannot find her name anywhere. Rusted AutoParts 16:48, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

I can see her name on page 239, in the list of Munchkins. She's the second to last name in the right column. Emk9 (talk) 18:29, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Ohhh, if the book itself is the cite, I retract my above comment. Rusted AutoParts 18:39, 2 August 2023 (UTC)