Talk:Deaths in July 2020

SportsOlympic and Cosimo baldocci

Dear @SportsOlympic: and @Cosimo baldocci:,

your standard of contributions to this page is very low. For various reasons. Common one:

• You only add redlinks, people with no pages. That's fine till it is limited (30 days rules and whatsoever), but it is a problem when redlinks are more than blue links. So I'd suggest you should limit yourselves, or create pages before adding it here.

SportsOlympic:

• Don't use (death announced on this date) in most cases. Use it only if it is necessary. Try find a date of death before adding it here.
• Also don't add names without age. That's most likely easily available.
• Follow standard entries. Don't add imaginative things like you did with the Belgian cyclist.

Cosimo baldocci:

• Report the headline. You never do this.
• Follow standard entries. For example we use "physician" instead of "doctor".

Just some friendly advice. Obviously contribution from everyone is well accepted here. --Folengo (talk) 11:50, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

To be fair, those two add the interlanguage links with the entries, when appropriate. I'm not saying those same entries will have sufficient coverage as an enwiki, but someone wishing to tackle proper translations of any foreign citations could make a go of them. Alan S. Becker started out as a redlink is now a proper stub. Wyliepedia @ 12:23, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I add about 5 red links per day to this page. So per month that are a lot of red links I add. BUT about 95%(!!) of these pages are now blue links. So I think my contribution to this page is high; because about 150 red links I added last month are now pages at the English Wikipedia. If the date of birth is not known, but only the year, I never add the age. SportsOlympic (talk) 13:09, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

I could add dozens of redlinks if I'd want to. Est modus in rebus, don't exceed your limits.--Folengo (talk) 13:31, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

I don’t see the problem of adding red links that are turning blue within a few days. That what it’s about. SportsOlympic (talk) 14:01, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Folengo, since 1 June, you have made 369 edits to this page, an average of 10 a day. Perhaps you need a break? You also do not help remove any of the ones from previous months, so what's your problem? Wyliepedia @ 15:24, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

From what I've seen, the two editors are making perfectly reasonable edits - and perfectly reasonable mistakes. To err is human, to forgive divine. Such critique borders on being completely uncalled for. Ref ^(chew)(do) 15:43, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

I've been reflecting a lot about replying here. Sincerely, my only concern is the quality of this page, so I let this discussion sink in. Anyway the fact that you think an expert editor should take a break while people who keep adding incorrect entries should continue to do so is depressing. That's how the world goes, I reckon. I don't spend much time on here, I have a very normal life, and the discussion was about the quality of some contributions. Personally I think my observations are all valid. And I wasn't trying to scare away anyone from contributing. Regards, --Folengo (talk) 17:18, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

That's all fair comment as it stands, and very forthright too. But in no way can any long-established editor be seen or perceived to have bashed the newbies, even if they are only fairly new in terms of editing this page. As you well know, I and other regulars stand ready to tweak their contributions without complaint (mainly). The fact that they have added to the sum knowledge here is good enough for me. The odd editor who just can't be bothered to put in a fuller-developed subject line is the editor I take task with - these two both try. Ref ^(chew)(do) 04:59, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Folengo, to expand on Ref's comment, if you were a new editor and came here (or was tagged here), with a laundry list in another's complaints (rather than on their respective talkpages), wouldn't you be "scared away"? While I agree, having to maintain this page in fixing others' mistakes (new or "expert") is exhausting, calling them out here really doesn't help "build the web" of Wikipedia. Wyliepedia @ 11:35, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

No one is perfect, but everyone can learn. Now, at about the 20th time an user doesn't put the entry in alphabetical order and is not able to copy the headline (why? I don't think it is an ideological problem here) I find it a little irritating, with all the due respect. --Folengo (talk) 17:07, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

If I were you, I'd let others decide who is, or isn't "expert" in the interests of impartiality Editrite! (talk) 02:04, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Angel D'Mayo

Notability of this person in doubt for me. He is not mentioned at all in the article for the band Vox Dei, nor is a collaboration with Charly García mentioned in that person's article. There are no interlanguage links to him, and the only mention he gets is in the obit source for the entry. The internet is devoid of Angel D'Mayo. Ref ^(chew)(do) 17:42, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Euthanasia, euthanized or assisted suicide

Just wondering how this is put in terms of COD. I'm adding A. J. Beirens to the month of June and that was his COD but I don't know what the way it's put in as is. Rusted AutoParts 01:33, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Brittany Maynard on November 1, 2014 is listed as "physician-assisted suicide". Wyliepedia @ 04:54, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Certainly not euthanasia, as that's only a legal process for the animal world. Assisted suicide is probably more emotive, but with that comes an understanding of the compassion involved in helping a loved one escape prolonged pain. So that term would denote an action with the best intentions at heart. Ref ^(chew)(do) 05:46, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Only for the animal world? Where does that come from? Euthanasia is legal in a number of countries and jurisdictions. WWGB (talk) 06:33, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Only voluntary euthanasia is legal for humans, non-voluntary euthanasia is iffy, involuntary euthanasia is murder. If we're tiptoeing around "suicide", we should at least use the V-word. Got a willing Dutch toxicologist listed like a racehorse currently, not cool. InedibleHulk (talk) 17:03, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

I'm not expanding on my personal anathema towards human euthanasia. However, as MANY countries still don't allow it legally, I don't think the word should be included in our entries - unless of course we are reporting animal deaths, as you do. Ref ^(chew)(do) 17:32, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

I prefer physician assisted suicide. The problem with using euthanasia is that there are 2 kinds...active and passive...active is the type we are talking about, passive is when someone else makes the decision in the case of such things as shutting off life support after an event. Also if you are going to use euthanasia, the places where it is legal have requirements to be met in order for its use- so you should probably put that disease in as well such as active euthanasia for pulmonary disease in the case of the Dutch doctor we are referring to in this instance. As far as Ref's point that it isnt legal everywhere doesnt matter. We use local references for other diseases and jobs regardless of their legality. Prostitution is legal in a few locales in the US, so if we had a famous prostitute die, she would be a prostitute. Same with marijuana like the noted psychiatrist from Harvard who died last week. We also have had many many mobsters...some convicted some teflon.SunnyDoo, 23:29, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

And a subnote on why you wouldnt use anything else but physician assisted suicide. They are all the same method just different drugs. So the method here isnt needed like in the cases of other suicides.SunnyDoo, 23:32, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Okay, I’ve put it as physician assisted suicide. Feel free to alter it if it’s decided to phrase it another way. Rusted AutoParts 00:23, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

That didn't last long. Ref ^(chew)(do) 19:53, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Refsworldlee: what? Wyliepedia @ 00:03, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

• Henk Tennekes, 69, Dutch toxicologist, active euthanasia for pulmonary disease. Henk Tennekes: een klokkenluider die werd bejubeld en verguisd - July 7th 2020. Ref ^(chew)(do) 00:37, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Yea, I changed it as someone had put in euthanasia again 2x...someone else got the other time.SunnyDoo, 01:41, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Titles

I was wondering if there could be some clarity on titles when adding individuals to the list. I added a Xhosa Queen yesterday and her title was removed; however this month there has been Sir Everton Weekes and in March we had Princess María Teresa of Bourbon-Parma. On the flip side, this month we also had a French princess with no title listed, Hermine de Clermont-Tonnerre. Thanks. --Elinor.Dashwood (talk) 10:01, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

There is a longstanding principle that British knights and dames have their title included in the listing. Otherwise, we are generally guided by the article title. For example, Princess María Teresa of Bourbon-Parma includes Princess in the article title, so of course we report it. Conversely, Hermine de Clermont-Tonnerre does not include her title, hence the absence. If in doubt, use the article title. WWGB (talk) 10:11, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks WWGB! --Elinor.Dashwood (talk) 16:59, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Nicole Thea

She was a 24 year old YouTuber who was 8 months pregnant with her baby boy, reign (who died with her). British nationality, Death occurred July 11 2020 MMessine19 (talk) 21:53, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

 Not done - I cannot see anything notable about this person. Many YouTube users are 24 and are themselves YouTubers - dying while 8 months pregnant (sadly) is not a cause for notability. Ref ^(chew)(do) 05:37, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

She had over 80,000 subscribers, per BBC, CNN and CTV, so was probably doing something better than the dead pregnant YouTubers from my middle of nowhere. News notes her channel has posthumous uploads on deck, and those tend to get the most views (105k subs now, which would've won her a trophy). Can't paste a link on this thing and refuse to memorize one, though, so still not done. InedibleHulk (talk) 15:40, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

That’s because the cause of death is unknown at the moment. MMessine19 (talk) 15:51, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

What's because that? InedibleHulk (talk) 15:57, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Nicole Thea was also a dancer and influencer MMessine19 (talk) 15:59, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

If her influential dancing is exclusive to her YouTube channel, it doesn't count separately. InedibleHulk (talk) 16:09, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Solved her real cause of death: massive heart attack.[1] MMessine19 (talk) 18:03, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Not solved, suspected. By an admittedly unsure uncle, awaiting autopsy results. Even if true, an apparent lack of notability was the problem, not a blank cause of death. InedibleHulk (talk) 18:52, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Just to be clear, further speculation/information won't change the fact that she was not notable enough. 24-year-olds, with just that amount of time to develop notable aspects to their lives, have to be exceedingly gifted/talented to begin with. Had she gone on to do brilliant things with her life in a future tense, she would have earned a WP article and eventually have been listed here too. That's sadly and unfortunately not going to be the case, from where I'm looking. Ref ^(chew)(do) 20:05, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

She's gained over 3,000 subs in the last four hours, posthumous fame isn't out of the question here, as I suspect it is for Steve Bouchie. InedibleHulk (talk) 20:12, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

There's a difference between fame/notability and one-time newsworthiness. I hope we never lose sight of that difference. Ref ^(chew)(do) 03:25, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Ha! That ship has long sailed. Fahim Saleh, Daniel Lewis Lee and Gerardo Juraci Campelo Leite were all overlooked till COVID, Trump and a grisly scene made them blip. None continue to do their thing from beyond the grave. But Thea's beat goes on (over 7,000 more subs today). InedibleHulk (talk) 22:01, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Fifty years of acting did nothing for Raymundo Capetillo, but hours after dying with COVID, bam! InedibleHulk (talk) 22:26, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Given the extensive coverage in reliable sources where Thea is described as a "social media star", I would have liked to see this entry included for the 30-day period. I don't believe this is a standard case of individuals added who are really are notable for a single event and there is at least the possibility that an article could be created before the 30 day expiry.-- Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 22:17, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Not too late, go for it! InedibleHulk (talk) 22:48, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Hey, yeah, I mean I initially said no, but any editor can think differently to me (and most do). Just because I nay-say her doesn't mean I necessarily stroll in there and remove her if added. Ref ^(chew)(do) 03:21, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

I'm not usually one to err on the side of other stuff, but we do allow an entry with a modicum of notability, even if their death is the most-published sources for them. Wyliepedia @ 03:27, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

A lot of the articles our redlink policy inspires are only based on the obituary, especially since March. Sure, it's technically cited three times from three outlets to try and fool the GNG sticklers; same story, we all know it. But they don't all lead to low-quality stubs and a harder time discerning the truly notable deaths from this list.

I'm not saying Thea is ever going to rank among the great Atlantan biographies here, but she's on pace to become twice as successful in her field as she was in life. If actual improvement and awards after death don't count for even a chance at a crap stub like MPs from 1964 and some accordionists get, that's just...not "reprehensible", but something slightly milder! InedibleHulk (talk) 05:04, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Based on the discussion above, I've added her in.-- Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 16:32, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Angela Johnson and Dustin Honken (alt title may be 1993 Iowa murders)

Hi. Please be aware of the following article name change discussion (Angela Johnson Requested move 16 July 2020) when considering alterations to the Dustin Lee Honken naming in the list. Dustin Lee Honken is currently a redirect to his partner-in-crime Angela Jane Johnson, and it looks likely that both persons will be covered by the one article as linked in the subject headline above (there are multiple Supports and no dissensions as at my timestamp). Currently a redlink, when/if that turns to a bluelink it will indicate that both subjects have begun to exist within the shared article. Thanks. Ref ^(chew)(do) 15:14, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

If someone can also make a "redirect" of the title Dustin Honken and Angela Johnson. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 21:25, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

That title will naturally be given a redirect from Dustin Lee Honken and Angela Johnson, plus all other combinations of their names, within the name change process (it's unusual for the closer not to do that). Ref ^(chew)(do) 00:33, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 19:17, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

It is possible that, judging by the number of supporters who are suggesting it, the whole article might be renamed to 1993 Iowa murders instead. Redlinks turning blue will indicate which title was chosen. Ref ^(chew)(do) 17:14, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

The result was: the article has had its name changed to 1993 Iowa murders, and all reasonable combinations of the names of the two perpetrators have been confirmed as redirects to 1993 Iowa murders. Ref ^(chew)(do) 16:01, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Remind me of the rules here, please

When a person has a redirect (but not a specifically named article) ... do they get listed on this Deaths page? Example: the article is 1993 Iowa murders ... the article is about Dustin Lee Honken ... Dustin Lee Honken is a redirect. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 15:33, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Simples. 30 days. After a month, all non-dedicated "multiple biographical" articles must go. Only singular bio articles should remain after a month. In other words, using your example, Dustin Lee Honken would need an article about him only and not his partner in crime or the event which dominates 1993 Iowa murders. Ref ^(chew)(do) 17:55, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. I was not exactly sure how "redirects" (like this) were handled. Thanks for reminding me. However, I do have a slight "tweak" to your response. If the article had been named Dustin Honken and Angela Johnson ... or ... Angela Johnson and Dustin Honken ... then, either / both people (Honken/Johnson) would be "eligible" for listing here, upon their deaths. Pretty sure that was a rule we all came up with several years back. I think it somehow originated with Ian Brady? (I think that his article was entitled "Moors murders" and not "Ian Brady"?) Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 19:02, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Yet, by dint of publishing without their names on top, the article does NOT qualify? That certainly seems like an unfortunate quirk of the renaming process. I was pretty sure that a person bio had to be the only bio dealt with in an article, unless they were one of twins or shared a lifetime as one of a notable music duo. Perhaps someone could remind ME on that point? (According to your example, it is still called Moors murders (no redirect to Ian Brady or Myra Hindley). Therefore Ian Brady should not qualify for an entry in the relevant list. Which is ridiculous. Which is correct?) Ref ^(chew)(do) 19:49, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Yep, Brady died on 15 May 2017 but has no entry at Deaths in May 2017. Without his own bio article, he is not considered individually notable. WWGB (talk) 00:55, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I am sure this issue has come up many times. But, I think I remember it re-surfacing when Ian Brady died. Some thought he was clearly "notable" (for the Moors murders) and should be listed on the Deaths page. Others said that he was not notable, because he didn't have his "own" article (i.e., Ian Brady, proper --- not as a redirect). So, in the end, the consensus was: if a person does not have his own bio article -- but his specific name is mentioned in the article title -- then he is "eligible" for entry in the Deaths list. One of the examples -- cited by me, I believe -- was Murder of Kitty Genovese. So, Kitty Genovese did not have a bio article. And thus, was not "notable". Through that consensus discussion, people like Kitty Genovese "became" notable (for Deaths entry eligibility) ... as long as their name was mentioned in the article title. That is how I recall the discussion. So, yes, Ian Brady is not notable ... even though the Moors murders are notable. Ditto with Honken/Johnson, and the Iowa murders. I guess it is an unfortunate consequence of the renaming process. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 03:02, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Here is the Ian Brady discussion: Talk:Deaths in May 2017#Ian Brady. I guess I got Ian Brady confused with some other notable (or "not" notable) person, from over the years ... ? Regardless, I am pretty sure we still have that "Kitty Genovese" rule. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 03:17, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for clearing that up - despite how I still feel about (let's say) "notorious-non-notables" not appearing in the final list. Don't get me wrong - I'm not a fan of murderers, but what they did made waves and changed lives albeit in a negative way. Were you to be a totally uninitiated visitor accessing the relevant Deaths page, you'd probably expect him to show up there. Ref ^(chew)(do) 18:36, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. Brady probably should be listed on the Deaths pages ... but no one could really see a way "around the rules". In all actuality, he probably should have had his "own" article, rather than just being clumped in the "Moors murders". But, I guess that ship has sailed. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 02:53, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Is Olivia de Havilland still arguably Japanese?

Three Decembers ago, Sunnydoo said that when the time comes, "it will be British-American-French-Japanese actress". Nukualofa thought this day would "never" come, but there it goes. So now what, stick with Plan A or roll with the three we have, screw the former empire? If anyone forgets, see Talk:Deaths in December 2017/Archive 1#Stan Pilecki. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:46, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

It was an honorary citizenship. Japan couldnt confer full citizenship b/c it does not allow dual citizenship, much less the 3 that she had by birth, by marriage and by naturalization. The short answer would be no as it should be regarded only those with full status although technically she could claim all 4. Tremendously sad day b/c she was one of my very favorites growing up watching Errol Flynn and her. I do wish we could include her court case in her byline as it permanently altered the course of Hollywood, acting and now over into rock n roll with the whole contractual law bit. And now the Meryl Streep watch begins- hehe- which will be the next fun times with the boatload of awards she has accrued over the years.SunnyDoo, 23:29, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Just keep it to her 3 Oscar wins. Shouldn’t be too spacious. Rusted AutoParts 23:42, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Cool, just didn't want to be wrong like you said we were about Joan six Mays back. I have no problem listing her as a legitimate litigant. The law literally has an article with her name on it. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:35, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

De Havilland Law.SunnyDoo, 23:47, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

She is not legally Japanese. Foreign nationals born in Japan have to be registered there and, as mentioned, they do not allow dual nationality. She was registered elsewhere, obviously, and attained three nationalities from that point only in countries which allow it. Ref ^(chew)(do) 03:31, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Randy Barlow

Can he be added to July 30? [2] MikaelaArsenault (talk) 01:32, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

I'm not sure that's a reliable source, not much more than a one-man blog. Prefer a better source. WWGB (talk) 01:57, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

There's another one here, and I'm not sure about that either. Ref ^(chew)(do) 04:08, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Yes, that’s just a mirror of the first cite. WWGB (talk) 04:13, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Currently looking for better than the two sources quoted above - entry removed once already as of my timestamp. Ref ^(chew)(do) 13:32, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Another editor has decided to go with your original source - it is pretty certain now that Barlow has passed, so I'm not reverting his entry. Ref ^(chew)(do) 15:18, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Michael Anderson

[3] Can he be moved to Monday, July 27th? The sourced article says that he died from a possible heart attack. MikaelaArsenault (talk) 23:33, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

There's no Michael Anderson in Deaths in 2020, and I can't find an obit for a notable Michael Anderson since 2018. Ref ^(chew)(do) 07:24, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

Ah. I see what happened there. There WAS a listing for him, but it has been removed as non-notable, the only obit being from a close New York collaborator of his. And I tend to agree he's not. Ref ^(chew)(do) 07:40, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

Helen Jones Woods, Trombonist, died July 25, 2020

https://www.npr.org/2020/08/05/899489411/helen-jones-woods-groundbreaking-female-trombonist-has-died-from-covid-19?sc=ipad&f=1039 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.98.176.46 (talk) 16:53, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

 Not done Already listed. Please post requests in correct month - I moved this from August Deaths in 2020. Please do check the relevant list before making a request and sign your name with ~~~~ each time. Thanks. Ref ^(chew)(do) 19:06, 7 August 2020 (UTC)