Talk:David L. Heymann

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on David L. Heymann. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150314041210/http://www.who.int/dg/adg/heymann/en/ to http://www.who.int/dg/adg/heymann/en/

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 04:18, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

Some proposed changes

Edit request

Please remove: "Before joining WHO, Heymann worked for 13 years as a medical epidemiologist in sub-Saharan Africa on assignment from the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). He also worked in India for two years as a medical epidemiologist in the WHO Smallpox Eradication Programme, where smallpox was eradicated in 1978. Heymann also took an active role in the first Ebola outbreak in 1976, and led the response team during the 1995 Kikwit outbreak. In 2003, Heymann was at the forefront of the SARS epidemic, working with his team to mediate international effort to halt the pandemic." Explanation of issue: proposed text for Early Career covers the ground but gives more detail and beyond-resume insight, providing better context for the later work described elsewhere. Please ADD new section after Education called "Early Career" and ADD as text in that section: He has spent much of his life tracking infectious diseases across the globe, participating in campaigns to stamp out old diseases from smallpox to poliomyelitis, investigating the emergence of new ones from Ebola and AIDS to SARS and battling long-time foes such as tuberculosis and malaria, as well as training epidemiologists in developing countries around the world. He joined the World Health Organization's Smallpox Eradication Programme in India as a medical epidemiologist in in 1974, overseeing the containment of the last cases of the disease. He was involved in investigating the first outbreak of Legionnaire’s disease before heading to Africa, where he spent 13 years on assignment from the CDC. He was a member of the international team that investigated the first outbreak of Ebola haemorrhagic fever in Democratic Republic of Congo (then referred to as Zaire) in 1976, the second outbreak of Ebola in in 1977 in Tandala, and in 1995, on secondment to the World Health Organization (WHO) from CDC, directed the international response to the Ebola outbreak in Kikwit. His studies on the virus over a five-year period from 1980 -1985 demonstrated that Ebola emerges periodically and that if patients are rapidly isolated, its emergence does not usually spark an outbreak, indicating that the virus crosses the species barrier more frequently than is detected. A 1997 PBS documentary “The Coming Plague” followed him as he hunted the reservoir of the Ebola virus in the forests of the Ivory Coast. While based in Cameroon (1977-1980) he studied yaws in pygmies and the epidemiology of human monkeypox in West and Central Africa, and as chief epidemiologist for Malawi (1983-1988) he developed the in-vivo methodology for determining prevalence of antimalarial resistance that has become one of the current international standards. References supporting change: https://www.who.int/ihr/procedures/zika-ec-biographies/en/ https://www.nature.com/news/ebola-learn-from-the-past-1.16117 https://www.worldcat.org/title/coming-plague/oclc/41300244 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3322938/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15040202

EMMALROSS EMMALROSS (talk) 13:51, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

Reply 15-JAN-2020

  Unable to review  

• Your edit request could not be reviewed because the claims made do not contain ref tags. When proposing edit requests, it is important to highlight in the text, through the use of ref tags, which specific sources are doing the referencing for each claim. The point of these ref tags is to allow the reviewer and readers to check that the material is sourced; that point will be lost if the references are not clearly placed.
• In the collapsed section below titled Request edit examples, I have illustrated two: The first shows how the edit request was submitted; the second shows how requests should be submitted in the future.

Request edit examples

NO REF TAGS USED The Sun's diameter is 864,337 miles, while the Moon's diameter is 2,159 miles. The Sun's temperature is 5,778 Kelvin. References In the example above there are three references provided for the stated claims. But the text does not indicate, through the use of ref tags, which reference applies to which claim. Your edit request similarly does not provide ref tags indicating which source goes where. The links between material and their source references must be clearly made, as shown in the next example below: REF TAGS USED The Sun's diameter is 864,337 miles, while the Moon's diameter is 2,159 miles. The Sun's temperature is 5,778 Kelvin. References In the example above the links between the provided references and their claim statements are perfectly clear.

• Kindly resubmit your edit request below this post at your earliest convenience, taking care to ensure that it makes use of ref tags. If you have any questions about the use of ref tags, please feel free to ask here, on my talk page, or at the WP:HELPDESK. Thank you! Regards,  Spintendo  09:48, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

Edit request

Please consider ADDING at the start of the article: (Reason: Updates with information relevant to COVID-19 outbreak)

Extended content

David L Heymann (born 1946) is a London-based American infectious disease epidemiologist and public health expert known for leading the global response to the SARS (Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome) outbreak;, being among a cadre of ‘disease detectives’ dispatched around the world to fight emerging infectious diseases and shut down outbreaks;, and for championing and spearheading reforms to the global health security architecture., He has spent much of his life tracking infectious diseases across the globe, participating in campaigns to stamp out old diseases from smallpox to poliomyelitis, investigating the emergence of new ones from AIDS to Ebola and battling long-time foes such as tuberculosis and malaria, as well as training epidemiologists in developing countries around the world. After leading the successful global response to the SARS outbreak in 2003,, he was appointed the World Health Organization’s (WHO’s) first Assistant Director-General for Health Security in 2007 and authored the watershed World Health Report on Global Public Health Security in the 21st Century. Since retiring from WHO in 2009 he has led several WHO advisory committees on emerging infectious disease threats, including the Zika virus and the COVID-19 outbreak., He currently chairs WHO’s Strategic and Technical Advisory Group for Infectious Hazards. The approach he devised in 2003 to combat SARS to bring unprecedented global technical collaboration to the effort through three virtual networks of the world’s leading disease detectives, public health experts and laboratory scientists, is at the forefront of the WHO’s efforts to accelerate control the COVID-19 outbreaks. Please REPLACE: “David L. Heymann (born 1946 in Pennsylvania, USA) was …” with: “He was …” (Reason: To avoid repetition and restore proper flow when accommodating the requested addition) Please REMOVE end of current para 5 and para 6: “In 2003, Heymann was at the forefront of the SARS epidemic, working with his team to mediate international effort to halt the pandemic. For his work in public health, Heymann is regarded as one of the "Disease Cowboys". (Reason: to avoid repetition in accommodating the proposed additions - already covered in the proposed additions) References

thanks EMMALROSS (talk) 21:04, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

Reply 25-FEB-2020

  Clarification requested  

• The requested prose uses the terms led, leading, and participating; however, it is not known what is meant by these terms. Please clarify how and in what way the subject led and/or participated in these endeavors.

Regards,  Spintendo  11:42, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

Please continue review of requested edits above

Apologies, but I do not know how to REPLY inline to the queries on "participating", "led" and "leading," so am addressing here. Am also including wikilinks where I can, as requested by @spintendo. I didn't think I had to repost the whole requested edit above here again, but am sure someone will tell me if I've done this wrong again!

1. Re "participating" - how and in what way varied. For Smallpox - As a medical epidemiologist (1974-1976) in the World Health Organization - Operational History - 1958, 1967 Smallpox - Eradication section - 4th paragraph Eradication Programme in India, led by Donald Henderson. [1] (hopefully, the wikilinks together with this URL should address the issue) Polio: early – as Chief of the Epidemiology Service at the [[Organisation pour la Coordination de la Lutte contre les Endemies en Afrique Centrale]] (OCEAC), Cameroon (1977 – 1980). AND Polio: later - as Representative of the WHO Director-General for Polio Eradication (2003-2007), ie head of the Global Polio Eradication Initiative [2] (bottom of this referenced journal article, the "biographies" section) See also: [3] for more verification of both of those. If "participating" is not acceptable, would "working for" be more acceptable?

2. Re "Leading": He led the global SARS [Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome] response as Executive Director of the WHO Communicable Diseases Cluster (July 1998-July 2003). (There is no wikilink for this, as this title does not exist any more, as WHO changes the structure of its departments, clusters and job titles frequently and the structure today is different. The WHO article does not drill down to the cluster level in describing the structure of the organization, or even then assistant director-general level, let alone include terms of reference for those jobs. This is why I provided the reference of the journal article below, which identifies him with this title under a photograph of him at the beginning of the article. It is also mentioned on this WHO webpage, where a WHO bio of him mentions this title and others mentioned in this edit request: [4] And several of the references submitted with the edit request verify that he "led" the global-level response. I am not sure what else I can reasonably do on this. Please advise whether this is acceptable. More references can be added, but they will show the same or similar - maybe "coordinated the global-level response to SARS" would be more acceptable?). Regarding "in what way" he led on this, he coordinated the international response, as that's WHO's role and the remit of the exec director of the communicable diseases cluster at the time.

3. Re "led": In para 4 of the requested edits proposed earlier, please change the word "led" to "chaired" and the rest of the paragraph as follows, so that this paragraph reads, "Since retiring from WHO in 2009 he has chaired several WHO advisory committees on emerging infectious disease threats, including the International Health Regulations (2005) Emergency Committee on Zika virus and observed increase in neurological disorders and neonatal malformations, and the Strategic and Technical Advisory Group for Infectious Hazards., which advises the WHO Emergencies Programme on the COVID-19 epidemic and the Ebola outbreak in Democratic Republic of Congo.

thanks EMMALROSS (talk) 18:44, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

References

Thank you for your reply. You've stated that the subject's positions justified using the terms "led" and "participated". It would be helpful if you could add the Wikilinks of the positions (or their main articles) so that I can verify that those positions entail the duties you have claimed. Go ahead and add those Wikilinks to your request above, then you can skip repeating the entire request below. These Wikilinks should be for the Executive Director of the WHO Communicable Diseases Cluster (a Wikilink to the WHO article and the exact section which discusses this Cluster would be acceptable) and the World Health Organization Smallpox Eradication Programme (again, a Wikilink to the main WHO article specifying which section discusses the eradication program would be acceptable). Also, under #3, you've stated that he "chaired several WHO advisory committees". Please list these committees. When ready to proceed with the requested information, kindly change the {{request edit}} template's answer parameter to read from |ans=yes to |ans=no. Thank you! Regards,  Spintendo  20:41, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. I have tried again. EMMALROSS (talk) 00:32, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

If the Wikilinks for these positions/groups cannot be located, and they are not discussed on the parent organization's Wikipedia page, then the subject's leading or participating in them is not notable. While notability is not, strictly speaking, a content requirement, it is a good barometer of whether information should be included. The proposed text may be true and useful — however, information should not be included solely because it is true or useful.

A Wikipedia article should not be a complete exposition of all possible details, but a summary of accepted knowledge regarding its subject. Verifiable and sourced statements should be treated with appropriate weight. In this instance, adding several lines of text which state how the subject "led" something or "participated" in something else can skew the article's balance, creating an image which may or may not be due based on the notability of the activity ("may not be due" = in other words, undue weight). That was the reason for my asking for these positions to be located elsewhere in Wikipedia through their Wikilinks, in order to verify if these accolades were due or undue.

In the end, it's not just Wikilinks that should be here — if their participation in these positions were due, there would also be coverage of their leading and participating found in neutral, reliable, secondary sources. All I'm seeing here are references from WHO (his employer) and the subject himself. I'm afraid that the failure to garner Wikilinks or secondary sources means that the claims as they are currently worded (using the terms 'led' and 'participated in') do not merit inclusion at this time. Regards,  Spintendo  01:12, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

OK. thanks @Spintendo. I understand better now more precisely the kind of references you need. I will have a look at it again for other sources or reword. Would I need to start a new section and start again at this point?. Thanks EMMALROSS (talk) 08:19, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

@Spintendo - Sorry, me again. Would either of these references suffice? They are neither from a former employer of his nor one of his own publications, but a secondary source - independent medical journals, The Lancet Infectious Diseases, and the Lancet Digital Health (about a week ago, see parageraph 4). Both refer to his leadership of the global response to SARS and the first one also refers to work on the Smallpox Eradication Programme mentioned in the edit request.

Please advise, many thanks. EMMALROSS (talk) 18:26, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

References

Thank you for providing the additional sources. In looking at them, they both incorporate a large portion of material garnered from interviews with the subject, with both of them quoting the subject at length. Ms. McCall even seems to answer my earlier question when I asked what is meant by the term "led" by stating that several key factors are required for a successful public health response to an outbreak of a new infection. These factors include understanding of transmissibility and risk populations; establishing the natural history of infection, including incubation period and mortality rate; identifying and characterising the causative organism; and, in some instances, epidemiological modelling to suggest effective prevention and control measures. This information can be collected from those working at outbreak sites virtually linked with WHO.

These are all salient points that she describes in how a person would "lead" the response. The only problem is, she is told all of this — directly — from the subject himself. It is his description of how the response should be led. These may seem like very accurate answers, but you'll remember my question was how and in what way. The subject tells us how the response is led, but does not describe in what way his particular actions followed that "how". He and Ms. McCall state one of the "Hows" as understanding of transmissibility and risk populations. I would ask, in what way did the subject accomplish this understanding of tranmissibility and risk populations. The subject/Ms. McCall state another "how" as epidemiological modelling to suggest effective prevention and control measures. I would ask in what way did the subject produce epidemiological modeling to suggest effective prevention and control measures.

Now to be fair, I dont believe that the subject actually performed each and every one of these actions, because as a leader, he would be coordinating them rather than executing them. The problem with describing leadership is that it is, to a large extent, subjective. Different leadership styles and the efficiencies of those leadership styles can and do occur with different people and those that they lead. For the subject to boldly claim that they "led the global SARS response" just seems like overreach here which would require mountains of references from people to say "yes, he led the entire global sars response".

A much simpler (and easier to verify) claim would be "from 1998 to 2003 the subject worked as ED of WHO CD Cluster, where he dealt with SARS." The word "dealt with" is much more easier to verify - for a person to say "I dealt with something" - there is not much there that can be disputed because it is describing a singular experience - it touches on only one person's experience of the matter (the person who dealt with it). For a person to say "I led something" - now that is going to have issues, because it describes two experiences - the leader and those who were led. For this reason, and the reasons I gave above, I think that these claims need to be worded along those lines, both for the sake of referencing and lack of Wikilinks. I apologize for the extended discussion here and my wall of text, but I was afraid that my point about the lack of independent secondary sources (which are not interviews) was not being fully understood. I look forward to your feedback. Regards,  Spintendo  20:24, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

@Spintendo. Thanks for the further explanation. I suddenly thought this might satisfy your requirements. It is a description by The Heinz Awards as to why Heymann was awarded the Heinz Award in the Human Condition in 2007. ::::::Nominations are submitted by an anonymous Council of Nominators and are reviewed by Jurors appointed by the Heinz Family Foundation. Award recipients are ultimately selected by the Board of Directors. I believe this is a ::::::reliable secondary source and that it clearly recognizes the leadership element and notability of his contributions to the field. He is mentioned on the wikilinked Heinz Award article, in the section covering recipients, 2007. ::::::Please let me know if this one is OK.

Thanks EMMALROSS (talk) 09:17, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

References

If the claim was reworded to state that "According to the Heinz Family Foundation, the subject was given their award based on the Foundation's appraisal of their work in such and such areas...." then it would be acceptable because the Heinz Family Foundation is reliable for statements about them and their awards — specifically — who the awards are given to, and the reasons for giving them the award, according to the Foundation. But they are not a WP:RS for any direct assertions made about the overall leadership capabilities of others. Regards,  Spintendo  10:35, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

Notes