Talk:Daisy Pearce

GA review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Daisy Pearce/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Sportsfan77777 (talk · contribs) 01:50, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

I guess I'm reviewing this one. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 01:50, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Just a quick comment first, the state football section should talk more about Pearce in the VWFL. It should also go over the general transitions from the VWFL to the VFLW to the AFLW. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 06:25, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Lead

• Per WP:LEADCITE, you don't normally need citations in the lead
  • WP:LEADCITE also says that any statements that have been/are likely to be challenged require a citation every time; I believed that this statement would be the kind of thing someone would challenge (e.g. your very next point, even though I understand you were only asking the question), so I thought including citations here would be appropriate. In line with your next point and the one for the legacy section, however, I've reduced the number of existing ones to two and included a third one from only two weeks ago. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 03:43, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

• Widely regarded as the face of women's Australian rules football <<<=== Is this still true, or only for pre-AFLW? What about Erin Phillips?
  • While Phillips' achievements at AFLW level are currently unparalleled, as I alluded to above, I have three sources (one from 2016, 2018 and 2021) calling her the face of the women's sport/competition, and could have had more, so I'd argue it's still true. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 03:43, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

• (except for the 2019 season, which she missed due to pregnancy) <<<=== this can be a note
  •  Done 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 03:43, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

• having also captained the club in the exhibition games staged prior to the creation of the league. <<<=== this is too specific for the lead
  •  Partly done Simplified "staged prior to the creation of the league" to "in the years prior", but I still think that the point itself is significant enough to be included in the lead, as this was the first time that women played football before a national audience and was a big first step towards the creation of AFLW. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 03:43, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

• You should put at least one major accomplishment in the first paragraph.
  •  Done Moved captaining Victoria and winning best afield honours in State of Origin up to the first paragraph. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 03:43, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

• six-time Helen Lambert Medallist (and inaugural winner of the VFL Women's best and fairest award in 2016 <<<=== I might recommend just saying "seven-time best and fairest award winner in the VWFL and VFLW" to avoid this confusion.
  •  Done 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 03:43, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

• which was later named the Lambert–Pearce Medal partly in her honour <<<=== you can mention something like this in the last paragraph of the lead
  •  Done 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 03:43, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

• was named the club's inaugural captain. <<<=== Maybe you don't need to mention this twice (I'm not sure if here is better, or the first paragraph. It depends on what else you write.)
  •  Done Removed second instance. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 03:43, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

• (as captain in the 2017 team and vice-captain in the 2018 team) <<<=== there is no need for this to be in parentheses
  •  Done 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 03:43, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

Early life

• I think most FAs write out the birth sentence as complete as possible (full name, birth date, birth location, parent's names) --- see e.g. Don Bradman or Wayne Gretzky.
  •  Done I expanded this section using information from the aforementioned recent source, an article in The Australian, and reworded/restructured accordingly. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 07:35, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

• Carlton premiership player and former captain Brett Ratten ===>>> Carlton premiership winner Brett Ratten, a former captain. (to avoid repeating "player" and to avoid WP:SEAOFBLUE)
  •  Partly done I de-linked captain, as it isn't essential to link that word, and instead changed the second instance of "player" (for Ben Reid). 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 07:35, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

• Briefly explain what Vickick is.
  •  Done 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 07:35, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

• and she eventually needed dispensation ===>>> . She eventually needed dispensation
  • It isn't clear in the ABC source as to whether or not she received the dispensation (just that she needed it), but the Australian source says that the league ruled against her playing under-13s with boys and that this was part of why she moved to live with her mother, so I changed it to say that she sought dispensation but was disallowed. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 07:35, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

• probably should mention siblings first towards the beginning of the paragraph
  •  Done 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 07:35, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

• (add "future") Collingwood premiership player Ben Reid
  •  Done 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 07:35, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

State

• As I said above, there isn't enough on her VWFL / VFLW career. This is the only sentence right now: "Pearce began playing with Darebin in the Victorian Women's Football League (VWFL) in 2005 at the age of 16, winning the Lisa Hardemann Medal as best afield in that year's grand final.[8]" Where is the information about her premierships, being captain, best and fairest awards. I presume you can go a little bit beyond that as well.
  • 4TheWynne, no rush, but just wondering about this point in particular? Sportsfan77777 (talk) 11:19, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
    • Sportsfan77777, thanks so much for your patience; I've done a fair bit of research, and have some sources that will benefit this section, but I've been fairly busy and just haven't had as much time to work on it as I would have liked – was planning on hopefully finishing it off in the next few days. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 00:12, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
    • Sportsfan77777, so much for "in the next few days"... anyway, I gathered as many sources as I could to try and fill in the gaps, and while there are still a few there, it should hopefully read a lot better than it did initially. As you can imagine, the VWFL wasn't covered very widely, so most of the information that I could find largely focused on grand finals as opposed to full season reviews, etc., but it's better than nothing. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 17:42, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

• There is a lack of structure in the rest of the section as well. It's more or less just listing the games she participated in. The paragraphs should be structured more like paragraphs. For example, instead of "In May 2013, Pearce was selected by Melbourne with the first selection in the inaugural national women's draft to play in the first women's exhibition game" as the first sentence of the last paragraph, it should start by explaining the series of exhibition matches between Melbourne and the Western Bulldogs.
  •  Done I've changed the structure of section so that there are two sub-sections (one for state/representative and one for the exhibition games) and expanded on the exhibition games as best as I could without going too off-topic. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 06:33, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

• polling five out of a possible six votes (add "from the two matches")
  •  Done 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 06:33, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

2017

• The section header should highlight accomplishments. "First two seasons" doesn't say anything.
  •  Done Changed to "All-Australian seasons". 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 15:00, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

• The structure of the first paragraph is pretty good.
  • Cool. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 15:00, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

• In general, I would mentioned the games where she polled three votes, including the opponents and team results (and briefly explain the polling system the first time). Her profile lists all of the votes game-by-game.
  •  Partly done I've mentioned the games (to date, one in 2017 and one in 2018), but I personally think that explaining the polling system would be kind of unnecessary, as the article is about Pearce and I feel like explaining something like that would be somewhat lengthy and off-topic, so I worded it as "was awarded the maximum three votes by the umpires" and linked to the article, which explains the rules. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 15:00, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

• Pearce made her AFL Women's debut in the club's inaugural match in round 1, 2017 against Brisbane at Casey Fields <<<=== cut ", 2007" and clarify it's at home.
  •  Done 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 15:00, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

• After four rounds, Pearce was the highest-ranked player according to Champion Data, leading the competition for disposals and handballs, and leading in average contested possessions and goal assists. <<<=== Twitter isn't a good enough source for this. Do they have their own website, or post on the AFL/AFLW website. Also, you should explain the criteria for the ranking points. And also, an end-of-the-year summary might be better than a four-round summary if she is still #1 or close at the end of the season.
  • To answer your first question, no, it was normally only published on Twitter, however the AFLPA source mentions this. Despite this, like with the AFL Women's best and fairest votes, I feel as though explaining the criteria for the ranking points would be lengthy/unnecessary, and given what you said about end-of-year perhaps being better, I think it would be better to just remove this, which I've done. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 15:00, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

• First instance of disposal should be linked. (Maybe it will end up in the state section, though.)
  •  Done 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 17:43, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

• She went on to average the most disposals (21.9) of any player in the inaugural season. <<< === Move this to after "At the end of the season", and make past tense "She averaged 21.9 disposals, the most of...", and don't put the number in parentheses like that because it looks too much like a score.
  •  Done 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 15:00, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

• under an injury cloud <<<=== too informal, just "was playing with an injury" or something like that
  •  Done Changed to "she played the first two rounds with an injury". 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 15:00, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

• Melbourne (add "re-")signed Pearce
  •  Done 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 15:00, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

• The second paragraph could use a topic sentence.
  •  Done 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 15:00, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

• Having resumed in the VFL Women's for Darebin in 2017 immediately after the AFL Women's season, Pearce sat out the 2018 VFL Women's season, citing the need to give her body a break from football. <<<=== this can go in the state section
  •  Done 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 15:00, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

• This link doesn't work: this one. But you can find it archived: here
  •  Done 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 15:00, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

• She's only signed to one-year deals at a time?
  • For the first three seasons, all players did, and most still do. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 15:00, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

• Cut "via Instagram"
  •  Done 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 15:00, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

• I don't think it's necessary to mention Sheriff. Just her replacement co-captains should suffice.
  •  Done 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 15:00, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

2020

• Leading into the season, womens.afl journalist Sarah Black named Pearce at no. 5 on her list of the top 30 players in the AFLW. <<<=== Did she do these lists in previous years also? Also, this one should be "annual list"; the 2021 one should just be "list"
  • The 2020 list was the first iteration of Black's top 30 list, so I didn't put "annual" the first time when it was the first iteration of the list and nobody would have known if it was going to be an annual list (to me, doing that wouldn't have made sense), and I put "annual" in the second time when it happened two years in a row. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 15:00, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

• was among the best afield in Melbourne's semi-final win against Greater Western Sydney with 22 disposals <<<=== Also mention that they made the finals, and that the finals were cancelled.
  •  Done 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 15:00, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

Statistics

• Okay.
  • Cool. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 15:31, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

Honours

• I know other articles have this section, but I don't see the point when it just repeats the career highlights in the infobox?
  • I don't really know how to respond here other than that it could be worth bringing up at project level if you think that one of the infobox highlights or the honours section shouldn't exist, rather than simply removing the section from one article? I personally prefer to keep the honours sections, and in this case, Pearce's state league highlights are included in the infobox, whereas honours sections generally only cover honours at AFL/AFLW level. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 15:31, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

Media

• After Tiffany Cherry hit out <<<=== "hit out" is too informal
  •  Done Replaced with "spoke out against". 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 15:31, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

• Only the first two paragraphs seem like they belong this section.
  • See below. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 15:31, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

• The rest should be in a separate section like "Advocacy" or "Player advocacy" or something like
  •  Done Divided section into "Television and radio" and "Advocacy" sections; I included the second paragraph in the advocacy section, as Pearce was advocating for men commentating on women's football. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 15:31, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

Legacy

• Same question I mentioned in the lead.
  • See above. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 03:43, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

• You don't need seven references. Two or three good ones from different times should suffice.
  •  Done See above. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 03:43, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

• Explain the type of mascot a bit.
  •  Done It definitely isn't of any massive importance, but did it anyway. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 03:43, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

Personal life

• Okay, but is there anything else to add?
  •  Done From what I've been able to tell, Pearce generally avoids the spotlight when it comes to her personal life, with the obvious exception being when she became pregnant. However, the article in The Australian sheds a lot of light on her early and personal life (and it sort of came just in time, too), so I was able to add some information from that source to both sections. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 07:35, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

Overall

• I think it's in decent shape and close to GA, aside from the "State and representative" section.
• Maybe a bit more work is needed to get to FA. They're more stringent on the writing style itself.
• The AFLW section is in pretty good shape, but I think you could also potentially add Melbourne's season results and maybe some more specifics about a few of her better individual games.
• Maybe one paragraph is sufficient for 2019 and 2020, but splitting into two might be more realistic for 2017 at least.
• Another bigger point would be to add a "playing style" section.
  • 4TheWynne, also, what about this point? I almost forgot about it. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 06:56, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
    • Sportsfan77777, took a while (I don't think there's a whole lot out there that goes into much depth about how she plays), but  Done. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 14:42, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Placing on hold. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 03:20, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

I'll start to work on it sometime in the next couple of days, as I'm moving house over the weekend, but I've read over each of your points and I appreciate the depth you've gone into with the review. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 14:45, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

Sure, there is no real time limit or anything. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 19:15, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

I'll pass this now. I don't want to keep holding it up. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 06:47, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

Some small remaining comments:

• I think the progression of her 2021 MCL injury could be a bit more straight-to-the-point. I don't think the intermediate part about the injury progressing well is necessary to include if it ultimately did not progress well enough for her to play in the end.
• Maybe the advocacy sub-section could be a separate section instead of part of media? I'm not so sure, though.
• I'm not sure what others will think of all of the block quotes in the legacy section. Worst case, I think you could just condense it into paragraph form if it draws criticism.

I think it's in pretty good shape to carry over to FA. I would recommend having at least one other editor (briefly?) look at the article before nominating it just to be on the safe side. Teratix or Hawkeye7 would probably be the best to ask, or Casliber (all of them are from Australia as far as I know, familiar with sports and AFL, and work on either FAs or FLs). Any of them you ask or don't ask, you could still ask to comment on the actual FAC nomination. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 06:47, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

Sportsfan77777, firstly, thank you so much – I took a fair while to actually make the changes myself, so no need to worry about holding it up. Just in regards to your other points, I've condensed the part about her injury, which made complete sense to do; like you, I'm also not too sure about making the advocacy section separate, as it's relevant to her media career – like with your point about the legacy section, it might be better to wait and see if anyone else comments on it/recommends changes before doing anything. Otherwise, I'll get onto those guys now and see what they all think – thanks again. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 11:28, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Pre-FA thoughts/feedback/whatever-you-wanna-call-it...

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Okay some queries I'll post here....Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:04, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

• ...where she was adjudged best afield. - is it really "afield"? not "on-field"?
  • I reckon I've seen "best afield" and "best on ground" in equal measure, so just went with "best afield" because it's shorter. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 14:27, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

• Try to avoid too many consecutive paras starting "(Daisy) Pearce..." if possible....
  • I was aware of this when doing the big rewrite, but not sure how I'd be able to change any of the opening sentences to the paragraphs that start with "Pearce..." in a way that would improve them. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 14:27, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

• Not thrilled about the term "media performer" but can't really think of an alternative...she is clearly not just a commentator...hmmm
  • "Media performer/personality" does get thrown around quite often in the football media to describe people who hold multiple positions/appear on multiple platforms (e.g. commentator and presenter, both of which apply to Pearce), so probably better to keep it unless anyone can think of anything better. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 14:27, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

• After becoming a household name in the football world,.... - this just sounds puffy, I'd lose it. Maybe just "Pearce later became an established media performer in both television and radio." or somesuch
  •  Partly done I felt it was reasonably important to note the timing, as it coincided with her rise in popularity/the beginning of AFL Women's, but simplified to "Outside of her playing career...". 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 14:27, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

• Pearce grew up in Wandiligong, near Bright,[6] and attended Bright P-12 College - I'd remove this sentence and merge extra material into next sentence to reduce repetition "Her parents separated when she was a child, with her mother and brothers relocating to the Melbourne suburb of Eltham and Daisy remaining with her father in Wandiligong, near Bright. She attended Bright P-12 College"
  •  Done 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 14:27, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Overall, looks okay. Some prose might need some more massaging. Will have another look after a sleep, which I need now....Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:29, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Hawkeye7

• Remove the hard-coded image sizes
  •  Done 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 14:27, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

• Someone is bound to ask for ALT text at FAC
  •  Done Not an expert on how to best word alt text, so let me know if you would like any of them worded differently. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 14:27, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

• Honours and achievements section requires references
  •  Done 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 14:27, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

• Awards should not be in bold
  •  Done 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 14:27, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

• Note a requires a reference
  •  Done 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 14:27, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

• You need to define (and link?) MCL Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:45, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
  •  Done 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 14:27, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Casliber and Hawkeye7, sorry that it took me so long to act on your feedback, but got around to it eventually. Let me know how I've gone/if there's anything else that you think needs tweaking – thanks. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 14:27, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Casliber, Hawkeye7 and Teratix, just seeing if you guys felt like throwing in some more feedback? Would like to think that the article's in as good a shape as it's been, but let me know if there's anything more that you think should be done and/or feel free to tag anyone else that you think would be interested/qualified to provide feedback. Keen to get this one to FA status – thanks. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 02:07, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

• Widely regarded as the face of women's Australian rules football and one of its first superstars - "the face of women's Australian rules football" sounds puffy. I'd remove it. Someone else will definitely pounce on this at FAC. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 10:36, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

• Otherwise looks ok Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 10:40, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
  •  Done If nobody else has any feedback, I'll start the nomination process and see what others think – thanks! 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 13:42, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.