Talk:Cyberpunk derivatives/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Literary punk genre debate

I move this on to a new topic because it was getting too large and the debate was under the wrong topic for this discussion.

Anyway,Avogadro94 I believe you are referring to this statement:

Beyond the complete incoherence of this list (Chitty-Chitty Bang Bang, 1984, War of the Worlds, and a Tom Clancy book are the same genre?), it is to be noted that, at a guess, none of these works was part of any conscious literary "dieselpunk" movement. They don't even have the same level of thematic coherence that the second list of cyberpunk influences (Dick, Delaney, etc.) have. They are just a list of books that have been appropriated to the apparently virtually non-existent genre of "dieselpunk". john k 17:53, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Firstly john k refers to the literature and fictional works related to dieselpunk in this article. Fine I agree, perhaps it should be mentioned that such works are not in fact dieselpunk but have inspired and maintain certain elements existing in the dieselpunk genre n'est pas? After all in the Steampunk article they have a similar listing of Classic SF novels, inspirations for steampunk not to mention "modern steampunk" although I'm certain the majority of the works listed under that title were never debated as to whether the author did or did not relegate the genre under their writing. But this is purely all semantics of course.

Moving on... john k states that They don't even have the same level of thematic coherence that the second list of cyberpunk influences (Dick, Delaney, etc.) have. I have to say I am not quite sure what john k is trying to say here, but I'm guessing he is saying that the list of cyberpunk influences and works (Dick and Delaney etc...) have more thematic coherence to the genre then the examples given for dieselpunk - if this is in fact his belief I can only say that is conjecture based upon opinion. Frankly the list of examples given on the article are not debating whether or not they are dieselpunk but that they share the above criteria given in the first part of the arrticle which defines the term and genre. Yes I agree there is a large difference between Chitty Chitty Bang Bang! and 1984 - however both do possess sci-fi elements which have been recognised by the peers of Steampunk and those of Cyberpunk literature sub-genres as being adherent to the overall themes and world found in dieselpunk. On hindsight, yes I would agree perhaps a re-wording of the article is required in pointing this out. But then I would have glady accepted this criticism were it done in an appropiate manner, instead of simple stating: "dieselpunk is not real" or "dieselpunk should be deleted" and so on...

Now on to john k's third point: They are just a list of books that have been appropriated to the apparently virtually non-existent genre of "dieselpunk". Here is a perfect example of what I was already expressing, I can agree with john k's criticism and even in fact would go so far as understanding his perspective on the article, but the fact that he would use that as an argument to simply prove that dieselpunk is a non-existent genre is what aggravates me. The genre has been recognised, it might not have been popularised as of yet in the mainstream as Cyberpunk has, but do bare in mind Steampunk was not either, until League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, and even when Alan Moore's graphic novel and the adapted film were released the author nor the publishers never stated that this was designed under the genre of Steampunk. The fans and the rest of the world merely put two and two together. Therefore we cannot assume something does not exist simply because it has not been made mainstream, the fact that the term does however is something altogether different, the term has even been defined and it is recognised as such. I agree that a re-wording of this article should be instated to point this out and the differentiation. But again I would have rather had constructive criticism than simply accusation sof it being my POV. Piecraft 18:13, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

In that spirit Piecraft, I think you need to make a few things clearer in the list of punk genres and prevent arguments of this sort in the future. Something that would help legitimise dieselpunk to those who are unfamiliar with it would be a list of generic criteria that makes something literary punk (emphasis on technology, elements of noir, etc., etc), and then a list of criteria that differentiates dieselpunk from steam or cyber. I think a large part of the problem isn't the existance of Dieselpunk, it's the way Category:Dieselpunk was applied to almost anything that has any element of Dieselpunk. The only thing right now that would exist in the category without debate would be Children of the Sun. Having a list of things that influence or contain similar themes within the Dieselpunk entry itself is probably worthwhile, and your recent edits to make it clear that these are thematic references instead of definitely Dieselpunk are a good start. Maybe deleting Category:Dieselpunk until it's a more established genre/style and there are more specific examples of it would be appropriate. --Ccranium 19:06, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

I do agree that perhaps an overhaul of all the sub-genre articles of Cyberpunk (including Steampunk) need to be re-evaluated, along with the List of cyberpunk works - you'll notice I put a mention on the Talk page of that detailed list. However, I am attempting to do so with the smallest inconvenience upon others contributing to each article. This is why I have requested for assistance from other parties who are interested in cataloguing and preserving the interests of this category i.e. punk genre or spin-off literary genres of Cyberpunk and punk culture. I would agree that the dieselpunk article needs to be re-evaluated in terms of the works of fiction it has listed, but perhaps deleting is not right action. I will begin with a complete check-up of the Dieselpunk article, along with the other related listings in other genre articles, but it would be helpful to have at least a definition for the time being referring to the genres so as people who are looking for further info on them can easily access them here. If you feel this is inadequate or wrong then I will back down of course. Piecraft 19:17, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, I was unclear. I was suggesting that the Category Dieselpunk was used to freely, but ended up just assigning this talk page to the category because I am lame. I removed the square brackets from my previous comment to clarify. --Ccranium 19:24, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Sure, I would agree to that. My only reservation is that technically we should either, delete where appropiately from or altogether delete the Steampunk category - seeing as it also has miscontrsued articles listed to be taking "part" of the genre which has never been verified - other than of course being closely related to be theme (which is the same case here). Just thought I should point this one out too so we don't simply overlook the entire picture as it stands, but I am with you and I will execute the deletion of the category for now. Piecraft 19:29, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

I admit that my knowledge of dieselpunk is significantly lacking compared to my knowledge of Steampunk, but I look at the Steampunk category and don't see anything that causes me to question the categorization. This may be prejudiced, but I've spent a lot of time over the past few days searching for and reading about dieselpunk and I still don't have a good handle on what it is. I don't have a beef with the post-appropriation in general, people create in a new style or genre before a label exists all the time. I just think the category was applied a little too freely, but I think dieselpunk needs to be better described before real discussions about how categorization can work. --Ccranium 19:44, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't debate that at all. Being a follower of the genre and a fan amongst other sub-genres of Cyberpunk I am open to accept that option, (although perhaps an admin should delete it - or instead I could just as easily delete the articles listed with the category). But as to your statement that you on't see anything that causes one to question the categorization in the Steampunk category puts me to disagree with you somewhat. I know that this is an entirely differetn debate, but still it does fall into consideration when we are discussing the relevance of specific articles being listed as a particular genre. I completely follow you on what you're saying and even agree to it, only what I don't understand is why should (and I'm not trying to support the category of Dieselpunk by this) certain articles listed in the category of dieselpunk be eliminated when there are plenty in Steampunk that don't adhere to or would be considered as Steampunk? Examples:

• Castle Falkenstein (role-playing game)
• Dinotopia
• American McGee's Alice
• The Island of Dr. Moreau
• Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea
• Thief (computer game)
• Howl's Moving Castle
• Bride of Frankenstein
• Batman: Gotham by Gaslight
• The Invisible Man

Just to name those which I feel have no true apparent connection other than elements relating to the themes present in Steampunk (just as those I have stated within works relating to dieselpunk). I'm not saying to delete the entire category of Steampunk altogether, seeing as there are relevant works which quite clearly present themselves in supporting the genre because they are designed under the genre. However Dinotopia and the works of Jules Verne cannot be considered Steampunk in my view, seeing as the author never intended them to be so - nor is he alive or any representative of the Jules Verne association has categorised his works as such. At best they could be placed under sci-fi. But again I'm not trying to cause trouble here, I just want clarification on this, because I simply don't understand why the case of Steampunk's category is different from Dieselpunks. In any case, please know that I accept the deletion of the category, and my full cooperation in doing so. I need to leave now, so I'll have to carrry on this discussion later. On my return I resume the changes, unless someone else would rather do it. Piecraft 19:57, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

if I had a better response I'd share it. From your list I only know American McGee's Alice and 20,000 Leagues well enough to comment, and there is strong enough presense of steam-powered technology to sate my needs (the asylum you play through as Alice is driven by steam, as is the Nautilus). My beef with Dark City's inclusion in dieselpunk is that there isn't any mention of diesel-related technologies in the movie, and the *punk genres are typically defined by the names they're given. Dieselpunk and some of the other timepunk subgenres seem like they were created and named to fill in holes. The logic seems to be "If steampunk is victorian-era dystopic technological speculative fiction, and cyberpunk is futuristic dystopic technological speculative fiction, then there should be something for 20th century dystopic technological speculative fiction too", and that's where dieselpunk comes in. I recognize that it's probably unfair to pick on one subgenre at a time, but cementing and clarifying them one by one is also easier than just blizting on them all. Be aware that dieselpunk isn't going to be the only time-based punk that get scrutinised, I strongly suspect complaints with others (flinstones as any sort of literary punk seems a bit of a stretch, it's definitely a utopic universe) will be raised. Probably in part by me. I'm not saying this to be threatening or anything, but just so you aren't taken by suprise. --Ccranium 20:29, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

From your list I only know American McGee's Alice and 20,000 Leagues well enough to comment, and there is strong enough presense of steam-powered technology to sate my needs (the asylum you play through as Alice is driven by steam, as is the Nautilus).

You can hardly use the purpose of their being a form of "steam-technology" as evidence that such works of fiction are destined for Steampunk, with that argument then one could say any form of technology that is related to atomic power or petroleum-combustible engines would fit in with Dieselpunk. This is why I bring this debate up. I know for a fact that American McGee and Jules Verne have never mentioned their works as being Steampunk or even related somewhat - McGee's Alice is fanatsy related I'll give you that but I'm sure he has never stated that the game was ever intended to be steampunk with or without steampunk machines. With this way of thinking then one can't clearly criticise against the articles listed within the Dieselpunk category. Although I do in fact agree that it should be re-evaluated, however at the same time the Steampunk and even Cyberpunk categories need to be re-evaluated as well. I don't think Akira should be considered as cyberpunk seeing as there is nothing truly cybernetically related as an example...

Be aware that dieselpunk isn't going to be the only time-based punk that get scrutinised, I strongly suspect complaints with others (flinstones as any sort of literary punk seems a bit of a stretch, it's definitely a utopic universe) will be raised. Probably in part by me.

The only way I can vouch for the other sub-genres of Steampunk existing is through GURPS and other fan-related sites which have clearly laid out that their is a presence of Timepunk, within this vast category are stonepunk, bronzepunk, clockpunk and sandalpunk to name a few - these have been represented through GURPS as well as affiliations through other genres such as Steampunk and Dieselpunk. That being said I cannot provide further evidence of their notability. All I can assure is that I will go over the articles and categories and begin pruning them and will provide as much sufficient evidence of their notability and existence that I can. Piecraft 01:41, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Influences versus Works Created As X-punk

First of all, thank you Piecraft for providing your answers to john k's concerns. I appreciate the time and care that you put into your reply, and the clarifications that you recently put into the dieselpunk article. Unfortunately, my main concern still remains. Namely, that the dieselpunk genre (among others) appears to be a perceived style in search of a literary movement. With steampunk, you not only have influences, but you also have a listed body of works that are recognized as "modern steampunk" because their creators crafted them as such. With dieselpunk, there are a number of works that could be seen as precursors to works created as dieselpunk, but other than the Children of the Sun RPG (which doesn't even seem to meet the level of speculative fiction since it does not take place on Earth or an alternate Earth), there doesn't appear to be a self-styled dieselpunk literary movement. Your remark about League of Extraordinary Gentlemen and steampunk is well taken, but that work was followed by other works that in effect said "this is steampunk, as influenced by LXG." I will look for the Game Trade Magazine article that you referenced. But, it will need to not only describe what a dieselpunk literary work can be, but it should also say "'x' was written as a dieselpunk work", for a movement in search of an originally-intended work is not a movement at all, but a hope. Avogadro94 12:24, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

You'll observe there is an external link to an interview with Lewis Pollak, wherein he does relate towards the dieselpunk genre briefly.

Piecraft, I had already read that interview in its entirety. My contention is not that dieselpunk doesn't exist, but that it doesn't exist as a literary genre. It exists as a RPG genre (if it is possible for one game to make a genre), but there are no literary works ascribed to it (or many of the other "x-punks"). Indeed, that there is appears to be only one created work (encompassing RPG, literature, motion pictures, etc.) that calls itself dieselpunk makes its existence as a genre shaky at best, and marketing on the part of Lewis Pollack at worst). Therefore, without evidence that there are literary works that have been created as dieselpunk works, I cannot see how it can remain as a Literary Punk Genre. Perhaps much of the dieselpunk prose can be migrated to the Children of the Sun page. Do you understand what I am saying? Avogadro94 20:12, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Avogadro94 I will not be here for very much longer due to going off to Portugal, but let me just add that although it may be present in the game Children of the Sun, that game was written with an entire mythology and history - including the genre of Dieselpunk which was written within the story and thematic elements of the game, therefore you could refer to it as a literary genre in that sense. Yes I know that's probably a stretch, but games, like movies are written with scripts and an entire back-story. The RPG game has spurned off an entire mythology dedicated to the game which has integrated dieselpunk within it as it's major literary "genre" if you gather what I'm aiming at here. I agree it's not really a prominent literary genre just yet, but the game proves it is still a notable "genre". I will re-write the arrticle concerning the works of fiction, do not fret, I do realise it is probably to soon to dedicate the entire article as being a prominent literary genre just yet, therefore I will change these things. If you wish you may delete according to your views for now, and when I return or if I gain a connection in the Land of the Forgotten I will modify and add the altercations. Sorry but there's not much I can do right now. Piecraft 03:35, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

I was asked to add my two cents so I will. I haven't taken part in many discussions so forgive me if I miss any protocols. I agree with Piecraft that DieselPunk has enough recognition certainly to exist as an article or section. Debate about the particulars should just lead to refinement of the article, not it's deletion. This goes for the other genres as well. As for separating literary and music punk genres, it seems like the whole punk section is not well organised. I found it non-obvious to get to the genres page from the main punk page. Maybe someone could find every page that related to 'punk' and get a gist of how things should break down organizationally. As far as the 'style genre' vs. 'created as genre' you could say the same about any literary work. There are plenty of written works that were only classified by the publisher for marketing reasons. Just because a trend hasn't been named yet doesn't mean that the books that started the trend or fit the same criteria can't be put in the same category. There's an easy way to make everyone happy and that's to in each category divide the list into two, one of 'created as' examples and one of 'fits the same stylistic criteria' works. That said, I also think that including "The Flintstones" under Stone Punk raises an important issue. I think although there are many creative works that are both "punk" genre and "anachronistic technology" genre, these two genres are not the same genre. Just because the Flintstones use stone age technology in way that mimics modern society does not make it 'punk', just 'anachronistic'. Perhaps there needs to be another section for anachronistic works. There seems to be an additional issue which is that of sub-punk genres in different media - literature, cinema, music, art and set design, etc. Jackdavinci 17:14, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

The point is that this entire section is absurd. You go down to some bookstore that specializes in pulp fiction, you wont find Dieselpunk or Nazipunk or crap like that. So apparently if The Shadow faces mobsters or some supervillain, he's dieselpunk. If he faces Nazis, it's Nazipunk. Fucking nonsense. Delete this crap. I cannot believe someone actually decided to include this alongside the genre.

An unsigned comment, especially by someone who isn't even trying to contribute or improve the article or section seems hardly worth taking into account, seeing as you have blatantly disrespected the editors as well as the contributors to the debate. There is no need for foul language, and last time I checked there was no section in a bookstore that was dedicated to cyberpunk or steampunk (thus your agrgument is flawes), but instead science-fiction or simply fiction. Please instead of spouting out nonsese that has no valid weight to this argument, either keep your thoughts to yourself or try to improve the way you attempt at contributing to the debate. Otherwise you will not be taken seriously here. Piecraft 14:27, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

oh spare me. this section is a DISCUSSION. everyone is entitled to his opinion. it's not right labelling an established fictional genre like pulp fiction as "disel punk" or whatever else.

Once again you are not really presenting a decent argument to go against the fact that dieselpunk is a notable and real genre. And of course it incorporates elements of Noir and Pulp because funnily enough it takes place during an alternate 30s-50s environment. Just as Steampunk incorporates Victoriana and Edwardian elements, thus the reason most of the literature of those times is considered "steampunk" and just as Cyberpunk is related to anything mostly futuristic incorporating computers. Piecraft 01:18, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

It seems to me that most of these are would-be genres lacking works written to be in that genre. "Dieselpunk" at least has ONE work (the aforementioned COTS) created explicitly as a member of that genre, but that seems to be it. "Sandalpunk" does seem to have a little use. The rest appear to be only found in GURPS and fan forums.

I personally think the rest (non cyberpunk/steampunk/dieselpunk/sandalpunk) would be assured deletions at AFD, because they have no notability or verifiability whatsoever. Dieselpunk and sandalpunk are skating on very thin ice as far as encyclopedic content. If I removed all content that's not sourced, which is most of it, there's almost nothing there.

I also believe a work should not be listed as an influence unless a reputable source can be cited for that opinion. A list of all the works a Wikipedia editor thinks are influences is original research, which is prohibited. —Matthew Brown (T:C) 06:38, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Go ahead and delete

I am tired of arguing with a bunch of ignorant people who wish to simply delete anything worth working on or developing. The purpose fot his project has become lost within the bureaucracy of it's editors. Go on your little power trips and delete everything related to the punk genre - seeing as you all seem to know much more about this, oh and let's not forget how everyone seems to love using the Net as a verifiable source hah. This is all a joke. Good luck, I quit. Piecraft 16:56, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm afraid Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and thus a place for established, verifiable concepts. What of dieselpunk isn't your own personal opinions or other editors' personal opinions and shouldn't just be a side-note in steampunk or Children of the Sun (game) is a one-paragraph dictionary definition suited for Wiktionary. Unlike some of the others, though, at least dieselpunk seems to be in a little use.

This is not - emphatically not - intended as a personal insult. Simply that the current contents of most of these articles do not make for encyclopedia articles. —Matthew Brown (T:C) 19:12, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Ho ho ho, this is droll, truly! Leave off with this pretense at being some fool who tries to present the facts. FACT: Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia. FACT 2: Dieselpunk is a notable genre. If you want sources, perhaps you should look throughout this shabby excuse you call an encyclopedia and you will notice the majority of the articles here lack proper sources, instead being linked to articles or pages on the Net. Now I call that hypocrisy. Carry on as you will, I am not here to debate the matter, please by all means delete the bastard. Whilst you're at it delete anything else I have added - being that I know not what I am writing and am simply an idiot who decided hey it would be fun to put up fake and nonsense articles on Wikipedia SUUUUUUUUUURE! Not to mention the other contributors of my articles, they were in fact all me! That's right I bothered to sign up as countless other users to use my POV (LOVE HOW THAT IS THROWN AROUND HERE) on these false articles. </sarcasm> Piecraft 19:22, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

While a one-page listing of different RPG punk niche-genres is perhaps worthy of inclusion in Wikipedia as encyclopedic content, it does not necessarily follow that fleshing out some of these poorly-defined and un-sourced terms is "worth working on or developing". Also, if dieselpunk is a notable genre, then please provide concrete examples outside of COTS - by this I mean examples that are dieselpunk, not just items that contain elements of dieselpunk. For example, your inclusion of Appleseed as a dieselpunk item wrings false with me, as it appears to be more cyberpunk/post-apocalyptic sci-fi than anything having to deal with an alternate 30's-50's environment, or with diesel fuel.

Anonymous poster go jump in the lake, I'm not here to educate your ignorance. Appleseed is if anything NOT Cyberpunk. None of the films listed as Cyberpunk were ever intended or ever influenced by cyberpunk - get your facts straight. The reason you believe Appleseed is cyberpunk is open to interpretation and based on opinion. Cyberpunk emerged as an idea to define a modern genre of literature not a musical, cinematic, fashion or game style. So stop insinuating crap, the reason Appleseed was listed was for the same reason that those so-called cyberpunk films were listed. Now go cry. Piecraft 19:52, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

By attempting to create a series of pages describing various little-known or used -punk genres, you are in fact, here to educate my ignorance. But please, tell me, why do you believe Appleseed to be a dieselpunk movie(s)/manga? This is a quasi-utopian, post-apocalyptic future world with giant robots, cybernetic body replacement (Briarios), synthetic humans (Bioroids), anti-gravity cars, and other elements which are very much sci-fi. What part of the dieselpunk genre description do you feel fits this environment?

Sorry, no I have better things do with my life than bother explaining to a bunch of kids what is what. Go figure it out for yourselves. Then come back to me when you have the balls to think.

I would like to say for the record as a wikipedia user, that I hope none of the editors are thinking with their balls. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.235.160.192 (talk) 02:45, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

While you're at it do a sub-genre of alternate-history fiction speculating that Roman Catholic monks in the dark ages, as the sole repository of accumilated lore during that time, helped to kick off the industrial revolution a thousand years earlier than it did on our timeline. This would be monkpunk  ;-) Endomion 18:05, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

queue tumbleweeds... umm not funny Endomion...

well ... actually i think i can name an example of monkpunk: The Name of the Rose by Umberto Eco, where contemporary thinking is done in the middle ages. Crimson Rivers II: Angels of the Apocalypse is another candidate but, yes, the label was invented right here and its too early to include. gbrandt 14:46, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry to see this list has been destroyed

It looks like it is too late to aid Piecraft in the destruction of pages and lists relating to obscure punk genres. Actually, i came back to the punk genres pages to look up the name of a recent dieselpunk manga featuring a certain kind of wingless airplanes run with diesel motors. But now, i see that the Google-testers have again removed valuable knowledge from Wikipedia that is hard to find elsewhere (and not to be found on Google in 2 seconds). gbrandt 13:45, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Other literary -punk genres

It seems to me that I've seen fairypunk and cowpunk mentioned. Not sure about the first one, but the horror/western anthology Razored Saddles mentions cowpunk. Шизомби 18:06, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Find a source, and cite it. What I and others objected to was the almost complete lack of sources and of evidence showing these terms were actually in widespread use. The articles were largely User:Piecraft and others' personal opinions, and that's not what Wikipedia articles are supposed to be (see our No original research, Verifiability, and Cite sources policies). There are an awful lot of "literary genres" that are not "real" in the sense of having any currency outside a certain subset of Internet fandom. —Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 18:14, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I'll look. I've got RS somewhere. Шизомби 18:19, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

• "cowpunk" is already the name of a musical genre of punk, related to psychobilly. Cyanid 12:16, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I consider my comic Agent Smoke (no link, it's basically badly drawn porn XD), which is set in the 2060's but mostly looks like it's from between the 1920's and 1960's (ie art deco buildings, airships, two tone cars with fins and whitewall tyres) to be "Internal Combustion Punk". Buut i don't suppose an obscure webcomic has enough notability to go on here, in fact i haven't even used that phrase on the site itself yet...Felneymike 13:36, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Merge into Punk literature?

There's a newer page that was created earlier this year for punk literature. A good deal of it is an expansion of what was already here, minus a few details that that article could certainly use. Since both pages are essentially talking about one topic, I'd like to propose that this page be merged into that article, and maybe have this page redirect to that one. Any thoughts? -- H·G (^words/_works) 06:21, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree Pictureuploader 10:59, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

For sure. I'd rather this not be a list in that article at all, but rather prose. Also, there should be kept a distinction between literature producted by punks and genres named after the punk movement in the punk literature article. Ecto 20:38, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure that's such a great idea. While the page has evolved since then, this page was started in order to separate the science fiction/fantasy movements from punk music and the punk subculture. (see List of musical punk genres). Converting the article to prose (and possibly renaming it) would be a positive change, but as far as I know, the two concepts are quite different and should not be conflated. - EurekaLott 03:48, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

I would have to agree with EurekaLott. While these genres compound names including the word "punk", they are not necessarily a subset of punk literature as defined in that article. It's apples and oranges.Bjones 14:12, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Keep Two different things. (Emperor 23:00, 10 March 2007 (UTC))

Merging and expanding

We currentlly have a recreated clockpunk and a section on other forms of Steampunk with a dieslepunk, all of which should probably be moved here. Possibly have the "other forms" section here with various X-punk subheadings. This would help keep everything in one place and avoid the cycles of deletion and removal that could happen (and have done as Clockpunk has been deleted once). If it seems like a good idea I'll throw out the tags and get things moving. (Emperor 23:00, 10 March 2007 (UTC))

I may be new to this discussion (sorry I missed all the fun), but I agree with Emperor's concept. A listing for the various -punk speculative fiction genres would be nice, regardless of their widespread use or not. I dare say that Clockpunk (also known as Springpunk) has become more widespread, with folks like BoingBoing and Warren Ellis mentioning them. To me, wikipedia works best as a true resource, allowing even emerging terms and thoughts a place to be defined. Nick Curtis 13:54, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Spacepunk?

I'm not even slightly clear what Spacepunk is. Flash Gordon, the example given, is just good old-fashioned pulp SF. Deiselpunk likewise. And I'm not convinced by "Mannerpunk"; it seems to me that the genteel "fantasy of manners" is one end of a scale that has anything-punk at the other end. There's got to be a bit of dystopia in a -punk genre, surely? Daibhid C 23:16, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Decopunk

In the past few years, there have been movies and games in which Art Deco has been the main design aesthetic. I realize Sky Captain has been placed in the Dieselpunk category, but I would argue that the main thing that defines the look of the movie is the application of Art Deco as the artistic theme. The same with the game BioShock. Dieselpunk just doesn't capture the spirit of these artistic efforts. I started using the term "Decopunk" to describe these movies and I think it fits the look much better.Thresher 19:45, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Sometimes it's like banging your head against a brick wall. Decopunk?!? Bioshock is a computer game with a look taken from the Art Deco movement. The background to the game says the community started in 1946 (which is after the Deco movement anyway). Comparably it's a similar style to Sky Captain, because they're both Pulp. At best they're both Alternate history. As far as I've seen Bioshock is a) a one off, and b) a computer game and thus not a literary genre. Is The Phantom Dieselpunk now? ~ Brother William (talk) 10:40, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Different forms of punk

We must come to a conclusion on which forms of punk are verifiable and valid. As of now, the entire article has no citations and preference cannot be given to one form of punk or the other over personal preferences. Everyone please realize that this is an encyclopedia and must be treated as such. Other editors, please discuss with me so we can improve this article --Banime (talk) 20:14, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

If by improving the article you mean adding unsourced nonsense, you are barking up the wrong tree. This article needs a lot of work, certainly, not least of which would be adding references, but all of the genres listed in the article at least have their own articles---which are, to one degree or another, referenced. The article is not helped, though, by adding information that cannot be referenced, and would not meet standards of notability and verifiability if an independent article was created. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 23:44, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Very well, however the term Stonepunk is definitely verifiable as it is even mentioned again later in the article. I will add that one back on until someone disproves it later, however, it is almost common knowledge that the Flintstones is of this variety of punk. The weedpunk article will remain removed for the time being. Anyone else have other thoughts? --Banime (talk) 00:34, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Other thoughts? Yes — don't ask people to try to spend their time proving a negative.

Please read Wikipedia:Verifiability, which says clearly "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material."

So it is up to you to prove, through references in reliable sources, that stonepunk exists as a notable subgenre of punk. Unless those references are provided, then it should be removed. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:52, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm a little confused. The Flintstones was a children's cartoon about cavemen that had analogs of modern inventions made of rocks and dinosaurs and so forth. Where is the "punk" in that? What is missing from all this is some explanation of why the punk suffix is added to all these tiny subgenres. Simply stating that something is "almost common knowledge" does not help. Cyberpunk was so called because it was speculative fiction with cybernetics and a bleak worldview featured in it, hence the "punkish" character of the protagonist in almost every work in the genre. I just don't see that when I look at Fred and Barney, their world is bright and sunny, and everything always works out in the end. Bottom line is that there don't seem to be verifiable sources for most of what is on this page.Beeblbrox (talk) 21:30, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Stonepunk is, well, bunk. It is not a serious definition, hence its removal from the article. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 21:43, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Merge proposal

I suggest that Elfpunk and Mythpunk both be merged into this article. The two articles are stubs (in the case of Elfpunk, a puny stub at that, and stuck with a notability tag), and we would be better served by merging them here, and thereby bulking up this article, than having two little-attended stubs out there. Similarly, there is no article for Mannerpunk, the subgenre of which Elfpunk and Mythpunk are sub-subgenres, and Mannerpunk redirects to Fantasy of manners, so I suggest that a subsection be created here to do deal with that whole class of speculative fiction. Thoughts? ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 03:29, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree --Banime (talk) 04:10, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree, though in the merge, the content should also be reduced as they appear to be boarderline neologisms. -Verdatum (talk) 10:04, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, borderline, but coming into wider use. But, certainly, some of these terms are not well-defined, and sound a bit silly. Still, better to deal with all in one place, and improve it as we can. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 19:36, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Support merge - if the OR was removed from those articles, they would simply be one-or two-line stubs. No problem splitting them out again later if they outgrow this article. скоморохъ 23:59, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

That was precisely my thought. If the usage of those terms spreads, in reputable sources, expansion and splitting may become necessary. Methinks that will be a long ways off. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 02:13, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Hearing no objections, I will procede with the merger. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 23:27, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

nice jobon the merger, but I'm not sure the "promotion" of Dieselpunk is the right move, considering all efforts to verify it as an established genre have failed to produce appropriate sources...Beeblbrox (talk) 00:42, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

"Chymicalpunk"?

Anyone ever heard of this one? It was brought up in discussion quite some time back on Talk:Steampunk and I was wondering if anyone had seen term in any kind of widespread use. I myself have not, and a Google search brought very few results. Would it be worthy of mentioning in this article as one of the many "medieval steampunk" varieties? ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 17:58, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Problems

So, my attempt to make this "literary" article stick to literature were reverted. GURPS is in no way a work of literature, it is an instruction manual for role playing. Hollywood movies and anime programs are likewise not considered literature. Graphic novels might qualify, but generally literature refers to a written work of prose, poetry, fiction or non-fiction. This page has some serious issues, as anyone can see from all the above debate, and if it is expected to be taken seriously major revisions are in order.Beeblbrox (talk) 03:12, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I might be willing to argue about GURPS, as role playing guides generally contain short works of original fiction to establish the universe, but I think you raise a valid point. I think it's best to have a single point of discussion for all of these punk-genres, so perhaps a move to Fictional punk genres would be a possible solution? -Verdatum (talk) 15:25, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I was thinking yesterday of suggesting just such a page move, Verdatum. I want to do some checking just to make sure we are in line with other similar articles, but some sort of page move would be in order. And, right now, whilst the page is undergoing some major changes, would be the best time to do it. Let's get some other people involved in the conversation before we do anything, though. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 16:17, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

The connotation of "fictional punk genres" is nonexistent musical genres, rather than actual literary genres. The current title is at least accurate, although it is narrowly defined. I suggest consulting editors experienced with naming conventions and disambiguation, and if a suitable page title cannot be agreed upon, following Beeblbrox's origanl suggestion of limiting the article's scope to literature. скоморохъ 17:14, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

By my count, there are currently four references in the text to "non-literary" works: 1 movie, 1 video game, and 2 role-playing games. If these are removed, I do not suppose the article is hurt terribly by the loss. However, I do feel that these are legitimate examples, and I would prefer to leave them in. The question, then, is what sort of renaming is possible that sufficiently broadens the scope of the article. As скоморохъ has correctly stated "fictional punk genres" gives the wrong connotation. So, any other ideas? ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 17:46, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

"Punk fiction genres" is unambiguous but perhaps clumsy and ungrammatical. Does anyone have a sci-fi encyclopedia handy? There must be some pre-existing convention. I agree that films, video games etc. are legitimately classified as -punk.скоморохъ 22:01, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that title could work. As you say, clumsy and ungrammatical, but at least accurate. I will try to remember to look for this at the library tomorrow, and see if there is an already-existing term. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 22:58, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Going back to the issue of GURPS, the real problem there is that all the article tells us is that GURPS suggested that these genres could exist, but if they don't actually exist, they should be left out entirely.Beeblbrox (talk) 02:52, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

ok it's been long enough, I does not look like the page is still undergoing major changes, and no one seems to have anything to say about the concern I expressed above, so I am going to remove the tag and make some changes. Beeblbrox (talk) 23:20, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

I spent some time reading the guidelines for naming conventions, but I didn't find anything to help settle the issue of the article title. Cyberpunk in particular is a genre that exists in literature and film and anime, etc, and I do see the point that the article may be hurt if we remove any reference to a non-written work. "Punk fiction genres" is probably as close as we are going to get to a definitive title. Beeblbrox (talk) 21:12, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I have been doing some research on this issue, and I believe скоморохъ has been as well. But, I have found nothing at all definitive in any sci-fi publication on naming conventions. The fact is that most of these genres and subgenres are still too new to have received any but the most cursory attention in the mainstream sci-fi community. So, we are going to have to come up with something on our own, I guess. What about "Sci-fi punk genres," since we are talking about subgenres of sci-fi, after all? ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 22:54, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Name

I have listed our naming problem here to try and get some outside input. Beeblbrox (talk) 00:55, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Cyberpunk derivatives or Cyberpunk-derived genres would be somewhat less WP:NEOish, I think. This page is probably the best you can find on this topic, and it uses the term "derivatives".--Pharos (talk) 17:17, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Cyberpunk derivatives might work. Certainly, it is probably the best idea that has been floated yet. Thanks, as well, for the book link, that is very helpful. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 17:38, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes it has been a struggle to come up with a proper name for this entry. My main concerns with "Cyberpunk derivatives" is that this could be taken to mean postcyberpunk rather than things that played on the naming convention. That is why I tend to lean towards something along the lines of "Prefix-punk subgenres" or "X-punk subgenres" (the former contrasting with "suffix-core" like darkcore, doomcore, etc., the latter where X = steam, clock, sandal, splatter, etc.). Whatever we decide what I am 100% on is this does need moving. (Emperor (talk) 16:42, 3 April 2008 (UTC))

We are all in agreement about the need for a move to a new name, Emperor. This discussion has gone on for so long, I have despaired of ever finding any agreement. I agree with your concern about "Cyberpunk derivatives" as leading to an incorrect assumption. Another suggestion was made at some point, but I cannot now remember what it was. Let's endeavour to reach a conclusion soon, yes? ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 16:52, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Well that is what I was getting at - move it to "Cyberpunk derivatives." If someone comes up with a better name then we can always move it again. The important thing is not where we move it to, just that we do. If there are complaints or confusion about "Cyberpunk derivatives" then we can return to the naming question. (Emperor (talk) 18:12, 3 April 2008 (UTC))

Feel free to move it, sir. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 02:32, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I hope you don't mind I have taken it on myself to move this, because I was getting a little antsy. I've also rewritten the intro.--Pharos (talk) 04:14, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Clean-up

Updated the article and removed some ambiguous references in the process. I omitted "Mannerpunk" altogether which cited no references or even example works. I added a "citation needed" to "Mythpunk" which should be removed if no references are at all available. Ottens (talk) 15:28, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks that is a real improvement. I've added {{main}} and scooped up the last version of clockpunk before it was deleted (although that will need a tidy itself) and things are looking a lot more solid. I think what we need to do is reference the origin of the names and make sure these aren't part of any prefix-punk games and/or a "hey this sounds like a great idea for something which already exits/no one has ever bothered naming a sub-genre for." (Emperor (talk) 16:34, 3 April 2008 (UTC))

I applaud the new format and the moving to this new location! Ottens (talk) 14:24, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Magepunk

I've never heard of this. It would seem this role-play game is really the only work of fiction that fits the description of the genre perfectly, so I wonder: is it notable? Is there any *other* reference to this "magepunk"? Ottens (talk) 18:42, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

|I removed the OR "examples". But after a websearch, i got rid of the whole entry. Could only find non-notable blogs or forums, and even there it's use was neologistic.Yobmod (talk) 09:09, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

" Magepunk is a current of high fantasy set in worlds similar to other Cyberpunk sub-genres exept that magic substitutes tecnology. Many are set roughly at an age similar to ours (chonologically) but advances in tecnology have been dwarfed by advances in magic."

• I'm with Yobmod, the "proposed" genres are total balls and without sources of some sort, they should go. Beeblbrox (talk) 19:49, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I've heard of a lot of punks, but even I am left out of the loop on some of these. --Banime (talk) 20:52, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Archive 1

Archive 2

Merger proposal

I'm proposing merging the Cyberprep stub to here (and the fashion part to cyberpunk fashion). It is entirely defined in opposition to cyberpunk, so is a derivative, and there is very little to say about it, and only one source (GURPS again). Maybe it is even only important enough as a mention as a type of post-cyberpunk? Yobmod (talk) 13:06, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Agreed and indeed. Seems more postcyberpunk than cyberpunk. Perhaps it ought to be considered a derivative of postcyberpunk? Ottens (talk) 15:12, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

There is so little to say about it that it definitely should be merged and be mentioned as postcyberpunk --Banime (talk) 20:53, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Most definitely agree. Somehow, that article escaped my attention. I guess there was not much to miss. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 23:11, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

The italian link

The italian link is wrong becouse it direct you to italian page that deals with "Elfpunk"--Wiwi1 (talk) 11:02, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

As the italian wiki doesn't have a "derivitives" article, and this is the only place with elfpunk on the English wiki, i think the link is ok.Yobmod (talk) 16:31, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

At least until out Italian colleagues come up with a proper Cyberpunk derivates article ;-)

The Russian link

The Russian wikipedia has two related articles:

• This one - I'm not sure what it's about, for I don't speak Russian
• And this one - which is about "Dieselpunk"

Unfortunately, two links to the same language wiki aren't possible. So how to solve this? Ottens (talk) 10:57, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

the first one is "techno-punk" (Idot (talk) 15:36, 29 September 2008 (UTC))

I would suggest linking only the one that has sources, ie the second one. If both had sufficient sources, then we would have reason to expand our article and think of splitting.Yobmod (talk) 13:32, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Salvagepunk?

An overview here, with the 'bard' here and the 'theorist' here. I don't feel especially qualified to write the entry, nor am I sure that it belongs on the 'Cyberpunk Derivatives' page, I just wanted to bring it to Wikipedia's attention (though if nobody answers to stop me I suppose I'll write it myself). It's possible that the entire 'genre' consists largely of one dude (the Socialism and/or Barbarism guy, Evan Calder Williams), but those other links (the overview and the theorist) suggest it might be getting some traction. Anyone who does choose to write it should not neglect the political tenor to't: ECW is an avowed Marxist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.50.19.37 (talk) 05:52, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Presuming we are using WP:GNG as the criteria for inclusion in this list, I'm afraid blog entries are not sufficient to establish notability. When articles are being written in reliable sources about salvagepunk, then it is appropriate in this article. -Verdatum (talk) 16:13, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Nanopunk

Main article: Nanopunk

 :ru:нанопанк, it:nanopunk  :ru:нанопанк, it:nanopunk

A genre which is very close to bio-punk, but describes the world were use of biotechnologies are limited or prohibited, so only nanotechnologies in wide use (while in biopunk bio- and nanotechnologies are often coexist). The most famous example of this genre is Neal Stephenson's "The Diamond Age". As predcursor of nanopunk could be mentioned some novels of Stanislaw Lem like Weapon System of the Twenty First Century or The Upside-down Evolution, The Invincible (Niezwyciezony) and Peace on Earth (Pokoj na Ziemi). + A genre which is very close to bio-punk, but describes the world were use of biotechnologies are limited or prohibited, so only nanotechnologies in wide use (while in biopunk bio- and nanotechnologies are often coexist). The most famous example of this genre is Neal Stephenson's "The Diamond Age". As predcursor of nanopunk could be mentioned some novels of Stanislaw Lem like Weapon System of the Twenty First Century or The Upside-down Evolution, The Invincible (Niezwyciezony) and Peace on Earth (Pokoj na Ziemi).

It's very nice that third world countries try to write encylopedias of their own, but they do not seem to have any policies concerning verifiability or notability, which are what has prevented nanopunks inclusion on this article.Yobmod (talk) 13:36, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Wow, that sounds condescending. 71.154.15.130 (talk) 19:14, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Bitpunk

The following has been removed now by more than one editor, but it keeps being readded. So, let's discuss it. This is not adequately sourced to remain in the article, in my opinion. It is a neologism, and was originally added by a user sharing the name with the person who coined the term, which means this is an attempt to promote the word's use. Until this is in wider use in sci-fi, and can then be reliably sourced, it should remain out. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 23:54, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Bitpunk is a term coined by Bob Doto to describe a genre of fiction that employs motifs based on 1980s technology, including 8-bit and 16-bit, from which the term got its name. Key features of the genre include the utilization of chiptune / chip music, third-wave feminism critiques, an appreciation of gender politics, as well as the sociology of race and ethnic relations. JB Ghuman Jr.'s 2010 film, "Spork," is considered a key example of bitpunk.

I've continued to re-add the post because I feel the reasons given, with the exception of neologism, are all suspect. I coined the term and posted it myself, however, I only referenced myself specifically based on the precedent set by the other entries. When it was eventually taken down for reasons of neologism alone I left it. However, once the article, and term, were picked up by io9.com, a considerable force in the sci-fi world to say the least, I felt the term once again deserved to be added to the page. The term "bitpunk" is sourcable to a number of places, albeit used in slightly different ways, most notably by Malcolm Maclaren, the founder of the Sex Pistols, in WIRED magazine. Not without mentioning, bitpunk is set to be included in the "proposed derivatives" section, which by its very name refers to proposals, and not necessarily (overly) widely used terms. All this said, I do believe the edit should go up, though after discussion, as I feel it does fall into a slight gray area.Bdotop (talk) 12:51, 13 May 2010 (UTC)bdotop

References

Gibson in dieselpunk section

I removed the following from Dieselpunk and bring it here for discussion:

A 1986 William Gibson short story in the Burning Chrome collection describes this genre as "The Gernsback Continuum", after the works of contemporary writer Hugo Gernsback.

This is an inaccurate description of this story, as the character in the story is not describing a fictional genre at all. The subject of the story is the design style of the '30-'50s period, also referred to as Googie and Populuxe, and in the story called "raygun Gothic." But, this has nothing to do with any genre or subgenre of fiction. ---RepublicanJacobite_TheFortyFive 21:21, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

I've checked my copy of "The Gernsback Continuum" and no-where does the term "dieselpunk" appear, so without reference to an external citation, this is at best original research, at worst a falsehood. I would try to see if it is a reasonable interpretation of the text, but the claim is too tenuous to properly research; the term "Gernsback continuum" appears in the text only as the title. The only section mentioning Hugo Gernsback himself is as follows:

"Think of it," Dialta Downes had said, "as a kind of alternate America: a 1980 that never happened. An architecture of broken dreams."

And that was my frame of mind as I made the stations of her convoluted socioarchitectural cross in my red Toyota as I gradually tuned in to her image of a shadowy America-that-wasn't, of Coca-Cola plants like beached submarines, and fifth-run movie houses like the temples of some lost sect that had worshiped blue mirrors and geometry. And as I moved among these secret ruins, I found myself wondering what the inhabitants of that lost future would think of the world I lived in. The Thirties dreamed white marble and slipstream chrome, immortal crystal and burnished bronze, but the rockets on the covers of the Gernsback pulps had fallen on London in the dead of night, screaming. After the war, everyone had a car no wings for it and the promised superhighway to drive it down, so that the sky itself darkened, and the fumes ate the marble and pitted the miracle crystal...

At a stretch, you could see how someone could equate the narrator's imaginings of what people from thirties dreamed of as their future, and the definition of dieselpunk overleaf, but it looks to me very much like an effort at forcing square pegs into round holes. A spot of wishful thinking by self-identified dieselpunks and the chattering classes. Skomorokh 19:48, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Do science fiction of 1920s, 1930s and 1940s classify as dieselpunk?

I mean for example Metropolis film as well as Alexander Belyayev's novels such as Professor Dowell's Head, The Lord of the World, The Amphibian Man, Air Trader, as well as Alexey Tolstoy's Hyperboloid of Engineer Garin. Or to be classified as dieselpunk the works should be modern but styled for the epoch? Also do various science fiction about Nazi experimentation, Einstains's theories, Philadelphia experiment etc classify as dieselpunk, including such as Return to Castle Wolfenstain and Red Alert computer games?--Dojarca (talk) 04:02, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

• science fiction of 1920s, 1930s and 1940s - isn't dieselpunk, as science fiction of 19th century isn't steampunk
  but modern science fiction that look like science fiction of 1920s, 1930s and 1940s - is diselpunk
  as well as modern science fiction which look like science fiction of 19th century - is steampunk (Idot (talk) 03:35, 26 January 2010 (UTC))

  So what about modern science fiction about Nazi experimentation etc? Is it a dieselpunk?--MathFacts (talk) 03:46, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

  in general modern science fiction about that time is a dieselpunk (Idot (talk) 05:29, 30 January 2010 (UTC))

• the question you have to ask yourself for any punk genre is this - did the tech exist at the time? If you're writing a story in NYC in the 1930s but you have diesel powered super weapons that can shoot up to a mile (think today's military guns), then it's punk. If you're writing a story that takes place in NYC in the 1930s and it's about a short dude trying to get accepted for the military... then it's just a period piece. Is Captain America diesel punk? Hardly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.87.155.192 (talk) 06:21, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Cyberprep

Where is the info for this entire section taken from? The only source us some magazine, that probally barely touches on the issue. There must have been other sources, but they probally were not listed. It's incredbly hard to find sources on this through. A quick google search shows nothing useful, but a forum talking about this "sub-genre". Why is there so little info on this? Can we be sure this is a real sub-genre and not something someone made up? I mean it seems real, but with nothing online even mentioning "cyberprep" leads me to have some doubts. This is just something to check up on. no rush - 69.244.100.206 (talk) 08:49, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

I removed the paragraph on cyberprep from the article. It doesn't list any works in this genre... that makes it seem a little suspect to me. If it does exist, it needs a notable citation or two. Meliadoul (talk) 19:20, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

The Truth Machine and The First Immortal by James L Halperin could probably be classified as cyberprep. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sunioc (talk • contribs) 06:15, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Stitchpunk

Stitchpunk seems to have emerged to describe the aesthetic of the film 9, although the fans seem to be using it to describe the creatures in it, there is discussion of a "stitch punk aestheic" [1] and io9 are calling it a new genre [2] and it rolls on [3]. Just thought it worth flagging. (Emperor (talk) 22:03, 20 December 2009 (UTC))

The specifics of the technology are not really that important. That movie falls into the post-apocalyptic genre so neatly that further subdivision seems somewhat arbitrary. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.57.212.11 (talk) 21:43, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Teslapunk

This section needs sources. I've never heard of it or seen it referred to as more than a tongue-in-cheek. Ottens (talk) 16:34, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

This sounds like someone getting extra pedantic about the steam in steampunk (sort of like people claiming steampunk needs to be punk because it has punk in it). I'd suggest removal. ~ Brother William (talk) 08:26, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Seems like a useless subdivision, but really it is covering a narrow time window between Steampunk and Dieselpunk. The specific technology is not the point. It is a combination of the technology and the cultures of a specific time period, which the author then uses to tell a fictional story that goes beyond the historical material. If Steampunk is focused on the Victorians, "Teslapunk" would be focused more on the Americans from around 1880 to 1920. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.57.212.11 (talk) 21:52, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Teslapunk sources

from the Teslapunk article

Teslapunk, named for scientist and inventor Nikola Tesla, refers to fictional narratives or visual styles inspired by 18th, 19th, and early 20th century pioneers of electricity and electrical devices. Like other steampunk derivatives, these narratives or styles commonly imagine an alternate history where, in the case of Teslapunk, widely available cheap (or free), clean, and often highly portable electrical energy replaces all previous energy sources (such as wood, coal and oil, and the steam engines that were fueled by them), but has yet to be replaced (or is never replaced) by other energy sources itself (such as diesel or atomic power). In some Teslapunk stories, free-energy technologies are largely forgotten in the present day, but only because they were kept secret by some government or other organization that used the technologies to control the masses. (Or to protect the masses, as is the case with Warehouse 13.)

Items common to Teslapunk include Art Deco styled ray guns, robots, and rocket ships. The "punk" element in Teslapunk usually emerges as a "free energy", "electronically empowered masses" ethos challenges the "energy scarcity" and "fuel monopoly" ethos that was already fairly well entrenched in the United States by 1900. (See Standard Oil.)

Visually, Teslapunk shares much in common with Raygun Gothic.

In a developer video diary, Jose Perez III, lead designer of Dark Void from Airtight Games, called the style of their game Teslapunk.

Captain Swing and the Electrical Pirates of Cindery Island by Warren Ellis is labeled "not steampunk" by the publisher, but called "Teslapunk" by one reviewer linked to Ellis's main publicity page for the book. According to the online magazine Comics Are Evil, "Tesla-punk" is the term Ellis prefers for his Captain Swing series.

Added by Anarchangel (talk) 22:10, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

So there are your sources. Glad I planned ahead. Did not really expect Teslapunk to be deleted with no discussion at all, but that's AfD closers for you. See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Teslapunk Anarchangel (talk) 10:32, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

So after all the description of what Teslapunk was, the actual references boil down to one single author's usage. No, can't see what that was killed off at ALL. ~ Brother William (talk) 07:12, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

References

Springpunk?

I've heard the term "springpunk" use for what the article calls "clockpunk." If it has any real usage and does indeed refer a more or less simialr subgenre perhaps the section title should be Clockpunk/Springpunk? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.240.33.142 (talk) 03:13, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

There are so few reliable sources using clockpunk, that even one RS using springpunk would make it competative for the common term. So if you can find the source you found it used in, i think mentioning it in the clockpunk section would be ok (like: Clockpunk (sometimes called Springpunk) is....YobMod 08:28, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Alternative-history renaissance would be a good candidate, but Whitechapel Gods is most definitely Steampunk. It isn't the details of the technology that define the genre, but rather the imagery and the culture. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.57.212.11 (talk) 21:56, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Ring of Red

Hi,

To which genre Ring of Red and its WWII tank based robots could be associated? I've always thought it was dieselpunk but according to date ranges, it should be atompunk.

Lacrymocéphale 23:53, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

DieselPunk

Removed the line, "Somehow, open world action-adventure Assassin's Creed series can be included in this genre." from the end of the DieselPunk section for obvious reasons. No Disk (talk) 02:00, 31 December 2010

DieselPunk is not a legitimate genre. What's called "dieselpunk" is actually "pulp fiction."

Pulp Fiction is source material for Dieselpunk, but isn't the end all, be all of Dieselpunk; Dieselpunk also includes much of the Popular Art & Aesthetics of the Interbellum & WW II periods as source, including but not limited to: Hard Boiled Detective novels & Pulp SciFi, Golden Age Comic Book heroes (like Blackhawk), Film Noir & Serial movies, Modern Architecture, Soviet Futurist art, American & European advertising illustration, Robots & Powered Walkers, the plane and jacket art of the Flying Tigers, Swing Music & Jump Blues, Nazi super weapons, Japanese Submarine Aircraft Carriers, Soviet Ekranoplanes, and American Flying Wings, all mixed up together. Freddiefreelance (talk) 00:25, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Pulp Fiction is in and of itself not a genre, but rather a form of publication. People get hung up on the technology and forget what these genres actually are. Steampunk is not just about steam technology. It is taking the technological and cultural elements of a time period and place and extrapolating them. Dieselpunk does the same thing, but with a different technology base and culture(s).

(UTC)

I am having a problem with Dieselpunk ending with the beginning of WWII, the image depicted show a merge between a diesellocomotive and anf airplane, but the design style of the Diesel locomotive (cab-unit) was not introduced until 1945 with the Baldwin 0-6-6-0 1000, the images one find when googling dieselpunk, show inspiration from the fifties example http://lipatov.deviantart.com/art/KIEV-dieselpunk-hovercraft-140822352 front end of this car draws inspiration from the 1948 Buick Roadmaster http://mikedoscher.deviantart.com/art/Rush-Hour-200023525 http://lipatov.deviantart.com/art/UMAN-hovercraft-257342304 etc.

Dieselpunk seems to continue until 1950.

Jesper Jurcenoks (talk) 04:19, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Atompunk

Atompunk is in a list of proposed derivatives but has quite a following now and many active people including over a thousand in Facebook groups, active on mailing lists and even having had Atompunk exhibitions years ago. While it's not as large as Steampunk, I believe it should be an agreed derivative and not just a proposed derivative as it has an aesthetic that people have picked up and is not just a term coined by a single author etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Roseofwinter (talk • contribs) 11:26, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Only if there are reliable sources. ---The Old Jacobite_{The '45} 15:32, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

There are Facebook groups with links, at least one mailing list and various blogs. Would those suffice? ---Roseofwinter 17:38, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

This page seems to be trying to rewrite history. 'atompunk' has always been called retrofuturism and predates cyberpunk let alone being a derivation of it. Wikipedia should be describing reality not trying to redefine it. 82.69.5.101 (talk) 16:42, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Sailpunk

I'm surprised that Sailpunk isn't included, given that it is probably almost as old as Steampunk and older than Dieselpunk — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.177.43.88 (talk) 19:28, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Decopunk

Should be synonymous with Dieselpunk if we want to keep our historical periods straight. Also, Steampunk should be set somewhere between the start of Queen Victoria's reign and the end of her son's, King Edward VII, reign. Many people confuse Art Deco with Art Nouveau. Art Deco became popular during the 1930's between WWI and WWII. Art Nouveau became popular during the late Victorian era through the Edwardian era, just prior and during WWI.

Oh, and I second the sentiment about the so-called Splatterpunk. -- Brothernight (talk) 05:12, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

I am familiar with both genres. My point was about the aesthetic in general. What does Sara Harvey get credit for the term? It was my suggestion and it predates her comments on the subject. I made the suggestion in a Talk that has been archived. It seems to have take off to an extent. A cursory search brings up some of the things I mentioned as examples which would seem to indicate someone read my submission. I guess it's a bit petty, but it would have been nice to get credit. Thresher (talk) 02:53, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Just because something has a slightly different art style doesn't make it an entire "subgenre", it's just a different aesthetic of the same style. The naming scheme of cyberpunk derivatives has, thus far, kept with the theme of a prefix meaning "powered by": steampunk is steam-powered, dieselpunk is diesel-powered, atompunk is atom-powered, etc. "Deco" is literally an art style and distinctly NOT a fuel or foundation material for its technology ("chromepunk" would be more appropriate, but even then, chrome is neither of those things). Does the technology of the supposed subgenre distinctly run on "art deco" or feature technology that couldn't be built without it? Unless you can think of a distinctly different type of fuel other than diesel that powers its technology, decopunk falls under the dieselpunk umbrella. 24.84.192.215 (talk) 20:40, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Dreampunk

Seems like an intriguing idea at first, but this basically seems like copypasta on behalf of the two people mentioned in the section (this Yelena Calavera in particular). Compare the opening of the 'dreampunk' section: "Dreampunk" is a fledgling genre of post-modern, dystopian fiction that concentrates on the alchemical power of dreams and the exploration of 'Countercultures'. vs this author description from amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Dead-City-Blues-Yelena-Calavera-ebook/dp/B00EJQZWM2) Dreampunk is a fledgling genre of post-modern, dystopian fiction that concentrates on the alchemical power of dreams and the exploration of 'Countercultures'. So yeah, I'm a sucky wikipedia editor but that seems wrong to me idek Atinoda (talk) 00:18, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Splatterpunk

I would like to suggest that Splatterpunk not be included in this article. It has an old history and is not remotely connected to cyberpunk except in being a pulp genre and having the word "punk" in its name. While Clive Barker is probably a big fan of Gibson I see very little connections. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.42.69.187 (talk) 21:30, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. Finally decided to remove it myself. It's not a derivative term. ~ Brother William (talk) 03:40, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Mythpunk removal?

I'm suggesting the removal of "Mythpunk". The linking reference (which should now be updated to http://www.theguardian.com/books/booksblog/2008/feb/14/newwomensworldsinfantasy ) only refers to Valente's works by that name and says it's her own name for her works. While the article does mention Goss and Sedia, it doesn't call them Mythpunk, and it doesn't mention Sonia Taaffe at all. A subgenre of one is hardly a subgenre. ~ Brother William (talk) 11:10, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Tubepunk?

Somewhere recently I saw a passing reference to something called Tubepunk in a blog or webforum discussion. Might have been in a comment on io9.com or maybe arstechnica.com, I don't really remember exactly. From the name, I'd guess it was probably about a 1950s-looking vacuum-tube-based retro-future world. I'd guess Tubepunk overlaps a bit with Dieselpunk and Atompunk. Anyone else seen references to this? It's new to me, but sounds kewl. :D -- Nomad Of Norad (talk) 00:52, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Cyberprep->Mind-uploading

    "Since society is largely leisure-driven, uploading is more of an art form or a medium of entertainment"

This makes no sense! Nobody (incl. in fiction) uploads ones mind mainly for artistic/entertainment purposes. Afaik Cyberprep rather might feature mind-uploading seen from a rather positive light. Such as in Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom maybe. Also I doubt that this could be described as a core feature of Cyberprep. Cyberprep might feature it, in its framework of a rather optimistic and timely (excluding outdated Cyberpunk's conceptions & technologies) view - but it's not really a main element of it - and I'd guess it's not even featured in most Cyberprep works.

--Fixuture (talk) 23:00, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Clockpunk / Woodpunk

Is there a distinction between "clockpunk" and "woodpunk"? (Although "woodpunk" seems like a little used neologism?) The article claims that clockpunk "portrays Renaissance-era science and technology", while woodpunk "is largely based in the Middle Ages featuring Leonardo da Vinci style inventions" (which seems like a contradiction, or might just be bad writing). 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 11:29, 25 March 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Cyberpunk derivatives. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.misguidedgames.com/press_frame.htm

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—^{cyberbot II}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 12:44, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 6 external links on Cyberpunk derivatives. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080322014437/http://www.davidbrin.com/matrixarticle.html to http://www.davidbrin.com/matrixarticle.html
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150219224634/http://www.strangehorizons.com/2011/20110124/mythpunk1-a.shtml to http://www.strangehorizons.com/2011/20110124/mythpunk1-a.shtml
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150910022803/http://www.strangehorizons.com/2011/20110131/mythpunk2-a.shtml to http://www.strangehorizons.com/2011/20110131/mythpunk2-a.shtml
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150915194325/http://www.strangehorizons.com/blog/2011/01/amimythpunkornotcom.shtml to http://www.strangehorizons.com/blog/2011/01/amimythpunkornotcom.shtml
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140309042310/http://dreampunk.me/blog/what-is-dreampunk/ to http://dreampunk.me/blog/what-is-dreampunk/
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131024055555/http://casketglass.com/?page_id=2 to http://casketglass.com/?page_id=2

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 22:29, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 3 external links on Cyberpunk derivatives. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://www.webcitation.org/68ONnwfr0?url=http://diewachen.com/2007/08/all-sorts-of-punk.html to http://diewachen.com/2007/08/all-sorts-of-punk.html
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081007063236/http://www.mediabistro.com/galleycat/awards/scene_national_book_awards_ceremony_71157.asp to http://www.mediabistro.com/galleycat/awards/scene_national_book_awards_ceremony_71157.asp
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20151208233520/http://www.scotlandrussiaforum.org/resources/201201_SRF_Review.pdf to http://www.scotlandrussiaforum.org/resources/201201_SRF_Review.pdf

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 03:26, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Solarpunk? Cattlepunk? Spacepunk?

This article http://www.e-flux.com/architecture/positions/191258/is-ornamenting-solar-panels-a-crime/ describes the Solarpunk artistic sub-genre that seems worth mentioning in this article.

There is also a very brief mention of:

Cattlepunk

It's a mix between Western and steam-era tech. Interesting definition here https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Cattlepunk

• Wild Wild West(1999) is a notable example
• Westworld(1973) is a counter-example, despite most of the movie happening in a western setting, it's a fake western world inside a real classic sci-fi world
• Cowboys & Aliens(2011) not sure about that one, remove the aliens the world a pretty low-tech, classical western

Spacepunk

Hybrid between cyberpunk and space-opera (so space + mega-corps + high-tech + tons of grittiness).

• The Expanse (TV series)/Leviathan Wakes is the most recent & popular example I can think of, but also Space Truckers(1996) and the Aliens franchise
• Blade Runner is a counter-example because space is invoked ("space colonies", and Batty monologue) but the franchise so far is firmly earthbound

2.7.62.166 (talk) 08:51, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

You have offered no reliable sources for these supposed genres. ---The Old Jacobite_{The '45} 11:35, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

Solarpunk

I have just added a "Solarpunk" subsection to the article, based on a deleted [4] article. If I recall correctly, its deletion talk page stated that the article wasn't important enough to have its own article and suggested moving there. Sadly, no one thought about moving Solarpunk to this section before the page got deleted. I think it's a good place for 3 paragraphs on Solarpunk. Paweł Chojnacki (talk) 22:56, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

The stand alone article was deleted twice – first by a prod, second by AfD – and in both cases, the argument was that it was nonnotable and the refs were inadequate. Nothing has changed since then. There was some discussion of merging to this article, but that idea was rejected. The term is still nonnotable and the sources are still inadequate. I have removed the subsection. ---The Old Jacobite_{The '45} 01:02, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

Is there a place on Wikipedia where you can see the talk page of the deleted article? I remember seeing it months ago with the discussion still in progress, then it vanishing. What would need to happen to Solarpunk to become notable? I'm working on a project involving this genre and I see it as a growing movement. How many books / how popular the articles regarding it should there be? Paweł Chojnacki (talk) 14:46, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

The subject would need to have significant coverage in reliable sources – Wikis, blogs, and Tumblr do not count. You would have to talk to an admin about seeing the deleted article's talk page. I really have no idea how that could be done. ---The Old Jacobite_{The '45} 14:22, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

" I'm working on a project involving this genre" says to me that you have a potential COI. I would just recommend to keep working on your project. If your project becomes notable and receives significant coverage in RSes then perhaps it will be considered notable enough to get an article here. Centerone (talk) 17:23, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

To any still interested in this, I've a source for a personal project of mine that seem credible enough, which point at Solarpunk as a Cli-Fi subgenre.

https://thestacks.libaac.de/bitstream/handle/11858/262/asjournal.org-Cli-Fi%20in%20American%20Studies%20A%20Research%20Bibliography.pdf?sequence=1

It sadly literally states "Up to now, there is no general agreement on how cli-fi is defined, and the same pertains to its conceptual frameworks, methodological approaches, and theories." That sucks, but maybe this might serve as a start for a Solarpunk section. If anyone has more source material, please share it, and I'll see if I can pick this up again in the future. T-Nod (talk) 12:08, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

The term 'punk' is overused

A lot of these derivatives seem hamfisted. A writer can be as creative as they want, without having to shove 'punk' into their genre label.

Cyberpunk was originally named such because it was about computers, and about the lower class vying for freedom - or, acting like punks. Punk was originally left wing movement that advocated freedom from the tyranny of governments and the upper class, and a punk referred to any rebellious lower class individual - often a young person believing in anarchy and/or individualism.

Attaching 'punk' to the title of genres that diverge into completely different settings is an incredible stretch. You may as well call nearly every novel 'homopunk', because it has humans in it. Even 'steampunk' is silly, in my opinion. Maybe the origin of the term 'cyberpunk' should be explained a little better in this article?

It might sound arrogant for me to say, but I think that too many people misunderstand the term 'science fiction' as well, and they appropriate it to fantasy. Impfireball (talk) 12:15, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Agree, not sure what could be done though. In some ways they might be related to cyberpunk in that those other genres are sustained by a defining topical center, but I'm not sure how that is unique to cyberpunk and if there are any other characteristics those -punk genres share. The only true offshoots / derivatives of cyberpunk in this article are: Biopunk, Nanopunk, Nowpunk and Postcyberpunk. Actually one option would be to restructure the article appropiately so that those 4 are in their own section (not yet sure what it might be called though?). --Fixuture (talk) 21:05, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

"Punk" has sadly become like adding "-gate" to any sort of political scandal. However rather than being a shorthand for a new event, "suffix-punk" is usually someone trying to get their own niche brand some sort of marketing edge. I'd be all for scrapping Mythpunk and Decopunk off this list at the very least. ~ Brother William (talk) 15:28, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

I think it's really in a number of cases, used tongue-in-cheek, or at least in a bunch of inter-related genres within a certain subset of a particlar style of science fiction. So, "cyberpunk is X and set in Y time period" "Well, okay, what if we write cyberpunk but put it in J time period?" "I know, lets call it Z!" "But, but, what if we put it in H timeperiod instead?" "Well, we'll call it Q!" I don't think it's really a big deal, it's all the same ball of wax with a different colored bow on it. You know, before the 1970s punk subculture came to be, there was the existence and use of the word for quite a long time. Centerone (talk) 17:18, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

It's true it's overused to the point of being a cliché, but plenty of these spin-off words have caught on nonetheless. TV Tropes has a broader overview, and even longer list of variants, here:[5] Robofish (talk) 22:45, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

There was a cyberpunk exhibition at a local museum a while back. In the end, I couldn't go, but it got me thinking of the idea in general. I grew up in the 80's and early 90's, so that's what I am nostalgic for. Particularly re: auto, aviation, and music. However, I like how we now have the internet. And healthcare is better now (for my purposes, anyhow). Is there a "-punk" type that does deal with the 80's? I suspect not, and I am in agreement that this has gone overboard (the only other ones I know of are decopunk and dieselpunk, and I do suspect those are valid. YellowAries2010 (talk) 05:08, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

References

Sandalpunk?

Wikipedia redirects here from that term. No coverage? aeonite (talk) 04:05, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

No reliable sources = no coverage in Wikipedia, aye. Google doesn't turn up much we can use unfortunately. Skomorokh 04:08, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

You will see a passing mention of it, along with other derivatives, under the heading "other proposed derivatives" in the article. Apparently, it derives from the wacky folks at GURPS, but there has been little independent development of the idea, at least as far as I have seen. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 04:31, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Hotspur23 has re-added and written the section on sandalpunk with numerous edits. In spite of the fact it clearly says: " Please do not add other "punk" genres without a citation from a reliable source. The page is watched, and they are quickly removed." there is a vague mention of an internal Steve Jackson publication mentioning sandalpunk, but no actual reference, or citation to any other source. Considering that this was first mentioned 10+ years ago, but that there have been NO citations since then, I think this should be deleted. Centerone (talk) 19:48, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

Biopunk Domestos?

"Also, this genre was present for advertising cleaning products Domestos." What is that supposed to mean? The link doesn't provide an explanation — Preceding unsigned comment added by Discordia23 (talk • contribs) 14:46, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

Atompunk media seems incorrect to me

I feel like the list of atompunk media is incorrect. It seems like a whole lot of superhero stuff with no real connection to the aesthetic. If I were writing a list of notable atompunk media, I would never in a million years think to add Spiderman to it, or The Powerpuff Girls, or many others that I don't know enough about to appraise. I might include The Jetsons and Spaceman Spiff, but I don't think a radioactive origin story alone counts as atompunk if none of the setting follows the aesthetic. Gridzbispudvetch (talk) 15:46, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

Clan of the Cave Bear?

The Earth's Children series by Jean M Auel does not belong in stonepunk, or on this page at all. That series is simply fiction that is set in the stone age. There is no anachronistic technology in any of those books. That is the defining characteristic which makes something '---punk' for example, in the flintstones they have stone vehicles and machinery. In steampunk they have steam-powered airships and stuff like that. I realize that someone has found a 'source' that claims that the Auel series is stonepunk, but that source is wrong and doesn't have any evidence, it is simply a baseless claim. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 32.216.25.90 (talk) 15:11, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

Moreover, I'm not sure how a book published in 1980 - the same year the word 'cyberpunk' was first used - can be a 'cyberpunk derivative' when it couldn't possibly have been reacting to it. Robofish (talk) 19:36, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

Boatpunk Examples

Boatpunk seems uncited by credible sources (one source doesn't even mention boatpunk) and some of the examples seem not to be punk. Worth deleting/rewriting?

Jokrez (talk) 22:19, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

WP:EPSTYLE concerns

I happened across this article today and read the section on steampunk. It was a bit jarring to read because of the change from encyclopedic style (ie: “as you probably guessed” and “let’s be clear on that”). As it doesn’t seem to be a quotation from a notable source, I suggest it (and any other section that needs it) be rewritten to align with WP:EPSTYLE. 24.46.192.182 (talk) 16:47, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

If it were just those two instances, I’d probably go correct them myself, but the rest of the section looks like it could use a rewrite to better align with encyclopedic style. I’m not familiar enough with the topic or the specifics of encyclopedic style to take it on myself. 24.46.192.182 (talk) 16:52, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

Hopepunk and mannerpunk?

I was reading an article in WIRED about the sci-fi author Becky Chambers. Her subgenre is described as "hopepunk," a term coined in an essay by Alexandra Rowland. Rowland described it as "the opposite of grimdark."

Here's another essay describing the subgenre, with a list of examples at the end: http://www.kittywumpus.net/blog/2019/03/13/hopepunk-thoughts-plus-a-reading-list/

Back to that WIRED article about Becky Chambers; it included a short list of other -punk subgenres and ended with "mannerpunk," which I'd never heard of. Turns out, Wikipedia already has a page on it, with a list of influences and authors. It lists the Gormenghast novel series as an example of mannerpunk works, also called "fantasy of manners."

Here are two articles describing it, with examples scattered throughout: https://www.dailydot.com/parsec/what-is-mannerpunk-a-guide/ and https://www.deletionscifi.org/episodes/episode-14/i-had-no-idea-dragons-were-so-well-mannered-politeness-gets-political-in-mannerpunk/ --JDspeeder1 (talk) 13:40, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

@JDspeeder1: I would definitely support the inclusion of "hopepunk" as there have been a good number of articles in reliable sources since the term was first coined in 2017. I would be glad to help with some text and sources.

Regarding "mannerpunk", this is the first time I've heard of it and so I don't yet have an opinion. I would note that that Wikipedia article does not mention "mannerpunk" except as a redirect. If the article is to be used as a link then I would suggest someone add some text there about the "mannerpunk" usage. (Is it truly the same as "Fantasy of manners"? (I don't know.)) - Dyork (talk) 00:51, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

@Dyork: The sources I've read refer to it as a synonym for "fantasy of manners." It's listed as a subgenre of fantasy, rather than sci-fi, but I don't see why that's a problem. --JDspeeder1 (talk) 07:50, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Introduction is not good

The introduction fails to properly describe the topic. I think the second paragraoh is the worst (and has no citations at all), but in general it is far too vague. I personally do not believe these genres have much in common beyond their name, but my personal opinion is not very important. But those who do believe "deriveratives of Cyperpunk" is a thing, need to - at least - be able to explain what that thing is. The introduction fails to explain what that thing (or family of subgenres, if you want) is. The introduction in its current state says "these things are grouped together", but it does neither explain WHY they are grouped together, nor in what way they are "derived" from cyberpunk. As the "Background" section only explains cyberpunk, and the following is a list of these subgenres, there is no place in the article (that i could find) where this is explained at all. Unhappy. --91.64.59.134 (talk) 17:42, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

quote "Scholars have written of the stylistic place of these subgenres in postmodern literature, as well as their ambiguous interaction with the historical perspective of postcolonialism" /quote What does this have to do with cyberpunk deritatives? 193.166.253.150 (talk) 12:16, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Remove The Section On "Rococopunk"

"Rococopunk" isn't a -punk because it does not imagine and alternative world in which a technology tree was altered to rely upon anything "Rococo". This section merely presents unrealistic versions of old late baroque clothing fashions with a mash-up of modern clothing fashions and tosses a -punk on the end. And there is no notable technology in the clothing itself that would imply that it could have created an alternate history by virtue of its presence in a branch of a tech-tree that is about clothing. This section relies too heavily upon 1 article as a reference, whose author doesn't seem to understand what a -punk fundamentally is. That author seems to think it's just any old crazy history-inspired fashion trend. So can we please delete this section? ♠Ace Frahm♠^talk 03:31, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Delete "Elfpunk"

This is not -punk. It has no alternative tech tree. Stories that introduce magic and nothing else don't constitute a "now-punk + magic", they are simply fantasy stories. Even Shadowrun is not "elfpunk" because that world is cyberpunk first, and the arrival of magic does not change Shadowrun's tech tree. It doesn't rely upon elves as a replacement power source for all existing ones in that world. The section relies upon only one sourced article in which the speaker appears not to understand what makes a -punk a -punk, and uses the phrase only once. The other reference also purports that a movie that has 2 elves is "elfpunk" but does not meet the criteria of an alternative-technology-punk. So let's just delete this section. ♠Ace Frahm♠^talk 04:11, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Stonepunk?

How about adding something about stonepunk? An example of which would be "The Flintstones". --130.208.145.201 (talk) 12:14, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

It is mentioned under other. Flintstones could be added if there was a source.YobMod 12:16, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, so it was sourced and included. Too bad the source is an article that mocks the concept and uses the Flinstones as a ridiculous example of what would fall into the genre. klɛz (talk) 09:42, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Stonepunk

From what it seems, this topic needs to be clarified in more detail, from what I have seen, it does not seem that Stonepunk exists and that it is a derivative of cyberpunk, ie a bit absurd, it does not really respect anything from the cyberpunk theme, the nihilistic vision of the modern/future world is missing and the term "punk" must represent the counterculture, which is out of place with the Flintstones or other mentions because they are not built on that, and works like the Flintstones are simply works of primitive fiction, not a subgenre of cyberpunk, and the reference sources they are not the best, although I know that it is difficult to identify a subgenre of cyberpunk, we still have to be careful about which sources and references we use, because on wikipedia we should not leave unreliable information that does not sound in line with anything derived from cyberpunk. 46.97.176.91 (talk) 04:12, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Merge "Decopunk" Into Steelpunk

It seems whoever wrote the "decopunk" section has confused time periods with tech trees. The "decopunk" section only cites a difference from Dieselpunk being clean, shiny aesthetic, and that is not a technology difference that creates a different -punk. The section is badly sourced, and even claims an example is "Sky Captain", which is ALREADY mentioned as belonging to the Steelpunk category. ♠Ace Frahm♠^talk 03:48, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

I think both of them should just be removed. Decopunk is just a shiny version of dieselpunk and there is only a single reference to support it's existence. One person's usage doesn't make it a genre. The Steelpunk entry is just as bad. The single reference is from a user comment on a forum. And even that is all over the place claiming The Fifth Element, Robocop, Mad Max, and Star Wars all as different examples. Brother William (talk) 02:19, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

Possible plagiarism?

Some quotes from the cassette futurism section of this article appear to be identical or very similar to the text of the TV Tropes page of the same name. The sentence “The internet, or some analogue to it, may exist in a cassette futurism work, but be used less frequently in data exchange than physical media.” appears in both articles. The preceding sentences also appear to be largely the same. From Wikipedia: “Notable elements of cassette futurism includes loud, bright, contrasting colors and geometric shapes, a tendency towards stark plainness, a lack of powerful computers and cell phones, and the prominent usage of 1980s or 1980s-inspired technologies such as: magnetic tape data storage, cathode-ray tube displays, computer systems reminiscent of microcomputers like the Commodore 64, freestanding music centres, small, monochromatic LCDs as opposed to full-color screens, floppy disks, and analog technologies.” From TV Tropes: “Whether it be the bold colors and geometric shapes, the tendency towards stark plainness, or the exotic-looking computers and proto-cell phones, it is clear that this is neither the Raygun Gothic of days past nor the Everything Is an iPod in the Future aesthetic that would follow, but a bridging point that contains elements of both styles…Other technologies to look out for are boxy CRT displays, computer systems reminiscent of microcomputers like the Commodore 64, freestanding hi-fi systems, small LCD or monochrome green CRT displays as opposed to full-color screens, floppy disks, reel to reel tape drives, VHS or Beta videotape, dot matrix printers, dial-up modems and loads of analog technologies.” 151.200.28.49 (talk) 21:38, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Spacepunk, Gothpunk, Demonpunk, Horrorpunk, and Rubberpunk.

Strange that the article mentions Raypunk, Nowpunk, Solarpunk, Lunarpunk or Rococopunk (which is great, by all means), but no mention of Spacepunk (which is a massive, albeit generic, punk genre) or Gothpunk (including cybergoth, space goth, primal goth, rubber goth, and other imagery)? I'd also like to give a shoutout to Demonpunk, Horrorpunk and (my personal favorite) Rubberpunk.

Spacepunk (alt. Starpunk, and its recently coined (but not new) subgenre "NASA punk"):

Most Space Operas (including 2001: A Space Odyssey and Star Wars), involve the kind of modern, futuristic, or retro-futuristic elements that make up the Spacepunk genre (of which Raypunk is what you might call its retro-futuristic subgenre).

Ad Astra, Armageddon, Interstellar, Mission to Mars, and The Martian are all examples of NASA punk movies. But perhaps the most prominent "non-NASA" Spacepunk fiction is Warhammer 40K (with legendary status among gamers and sci-fi fans) as well as Starship Troopers, Starcraft, the Alien Saga (albeit mostly Biopunk or "Gigerpunk"), Hitchhiker's Guide to The Galaxy, Buck Rogers (mostly Raypunk), Iron Sky, 007 Moonraker, Space Truckers, Lost in Space, plenty within Star Trek and Star Wars (which are both so big franchises that they involve multiple genres), the Red Dwarf TV series, and more.

Gothpunk (aka cybergoth or space goth within certain fiction and, more prominently, the Goth community):

A more specific genre of punk, sometimes more Spacepunk (in the case of Space goths), or (less "spacey") as a more general subgenre of cyberpunk (as seen in real-life Goth fashion styles). Gothpunk is similar to Steampunk in that it incorporates Victorian and Goth styles, but either without the Steam technology or as a specialized style of Steampunk (with more occult and Goth imagery and less copper, bronze and clockwork).

Demonpunk & Horrorpunk:

Depending on the case, Demonpunk may overlap with or be considered a subgenre of Biopunk, Atompunk, or otherwise, or be a distinct, standalone punk genre. Blade, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Gremlins, Hellboy, I Am Legend (and The Omega Man), Pan's Labyrinth, Resident Evil, the Twilight Saga, the Underworld Saga, World War Z, and similar movies and fictions are all examples of dystopian or pre-dystopian worlds ruled by vampires, demons, werewolves and/or otherwise, where humans must survive (usually by the grace of anarchistic young adults). Demonpunk sometimes overlaps with Atompunk or otherwise, but is nonetheless distinct with its imagery that involves the occult, Slavic and Romani mythology, paganism, witchcraft, Satanism, and/or similar "dark side" imagery.

Horrorpunk also involve similar imagery as Demonpunk, but differs in its explicit Horror (where Demonpunk is usually comedic or action-based) and involves more psychology, fear and disgust. One may argue that Horrorpunk would best be described as either a subgenre of Demonpunk or just used interchangably. Cosmic horrors like Alien, Event Horizon, Resident Evil, Deadspace, and anything related to H.P. Lovecraft's Cthulhu Mythos, whenever portraying "punk" elements (and not just Horror in general) could be considered Horrorpunk, Demonpunk, or both.

Rubberpunk (alt. punk rubberist, i.e., tirepunk, condompunk, rubberclubber, rubberbrat, balloony, rubbergoth, rubber mechanist, etc.):

This is a newer and more obscure punk subgenre that needs explaining. "Rubberism", more generally, is a specific fashion and arts subculture with (now distant) roots in British Rainwear culture, post-WW2 gay rights and, more generally, in "the fetish scene", but has since grown enormously into its own thing. Rubberism is still heavily stereotyped as "BDSM" or "fetish" (terms that are themselves stereotyped as "NSFW" (or outright "Porn"), likely due to how the Adult industry (and, conversely, moralists) have hijacked and/or misrepresented the terms, including psychiatry defining fetishism previously as "a mental disorder"). To be clear, rubber fetishists aren't always rubberists (often due to shame, which is a mental health issue) and rubberists aren't always rubber fetishists (i.e., they don't have a "rubber fetish"). Rubberism has had a major renaissance in the last 20-30 years within films, music, arts and fashion. Famous rubberists or rubber fashionistas include Katy Perry, Lady Gaga, Miley Cyrus, Rita Ora, and others. Many "fetish models" are also lifestyle rubberists or rubber fashionistas but they abhore the Adult industry. Either way, given that rubber is literally just a fabric (technically a group of fabrics, natural and synthetic, where "latex rubber" refers to the 100% natural vulcanized rubber made from the latex of rubber trees), Rubberist styles include virtually anything imaginable - from casual wear, romantic lingerie, clubbing outfits, cosplay and even wedding attire, to the more extreme "Heavy Rubber" costumes, suits, harnesses, ABC protective gear, and more (including the surreal and absurd).

Rubberpunk is a combination of punk or cyberpunk (sometimes more specifically dieselpunk, steampunk or other "heavy industry imagery") with Rubberism, where the use of full-body attire, gasmasks, rubber straps and harnesses, Goodyear tire aesthetics, corsets, or whatnot, are key. It's a more "militaristic" and dystopian look than "Heavy Rubberism" and implies more a "gearing up for work" lifestyle (sometimes with survivalist undertones) rather than just "a fashion statement". The Rubberpunk style has been featured in clubbing scenes of Matrix 2 & 3, and Selene from Underworld could be considered a kind of Rubberpunk (and/or rubbergoth). When certain fashion models portrayed Tomb Raider Lara Croft by wearing a green latex tank top over ordinary cargo shorts and guns blazing, that slightly gave off a kind of hybrid rubberpunk vibe. Rubberpunk is still a young and heavily underrepresented genre though, likely due to the various stigmas surrounding it. As such, there's very little actual fiction that portrays it as a primary theme. 2001:4645:3622:0:B55B:9D0E:22FD:2FCE (talk) 06:18, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

The reason none of that is included is because there's no references for it. Despite the vast wall of text you've typed, you didn't provide any actual definitions. Spacepunk based on your lists seems to be a synonym for "science fiction", and you used "space opera" to describe it. Although calling 2001: A Space Odyssey a space opera makes me question your understanding of the genre. I can't see anything in common with 2001, Star Wars, Red Dwarf, Iron Sky, and Hitchhikers beyond them all being science fiction. And if that's all they have in common then we don't need another suffix-punk term to describe it because we ALREADY HAVE the term science fiction. Frankly beyond your collection of titles you've given no examples of what makes it a specific genre and no references of the term in use by a reliable source. Until then, skip it. Brother William (talk) 11:26, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Please correct me if I am wrong, but in almost all of these -punk categories that you list very few examples have anything to do with alternative technologies and are mostly tied together through a vibe or fashion trend. Since virtually all Horror deals with "psychology, fear and disgust" at some level, what you describe as Demonpunk is simply the Horror genre, and we already have a name for that. I have never heard anyone refer to the Alien franchise as Horrorpunk. "Demonpunk may overlap with or be considered a subgenre of Biopunk, Atompunk ..." it may? How? Where in Buffy is there an alternative demonic technology? What latex technology is Miley Cyrus using to warrant the term "Latexpunk"? If there are any actual cited sources to back up these dubious claims I would love to see them. Xenomorph erotica (talk) 21:46, 23 August 2023 (UTC)