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Latest comment: 14 years ago17 comments3 people in discussion
This obscure, confusing, and bastardized form, based solely on a half-forgotten reference work, is not common English usage; it is not defensible as a representation of the Greek. To represent the two kappas differently is neither idiom nor system.
The claim that this irrational method is consensus would be a lie; the only basis for it to be so is a long-past discussion on one of the other late Constantines, which was evenly split before an incompetent "mediator" reached a "decision" on his own whim. SeptentrionalisPMAnderson18:42, 29 August 2010 (UTC)Reply
No, it is dispelling a lie, which never was consensus here; it was the imposition of two cranks. All it will take is another crank on this side, and even the pretense of consensus should be done away. SeptentrionalisPMAnderson19:32, 29 August 2010 (UTC)Reply
Could you define these precincts? I have seen English, American, French and Greek authors use the ODB forms when writing in English, and certainly not only in Oxford publications. A little search in Google should convince you of that (provided you are prepared to be convinced, and I have come to believe that you are not). In fact, the use of ODB forms is either way part of a wider tendency in academia to use more "native" forms, be it for Slavic, Arab or Turkish names and terms, including various diacritics unknown to the ordinary English-speaker. The aesthetic result may be questionable, but there it is. If Stephen Urosh Dushan increasingly becomes Stefan Uroš Dušan, why should Palaeologus not become Palaiologos? Heck, major international projects like the PBW list the names not by John or Constantine, but Ioannes or Konstantinos. Constantine ✍ 23:54, 29 August 2010 (UTC)Reply
I agree. The local consensus and the wider academic use of the terms are clearly on the ODB side. The old, divisive, onomatology debates clearly belong in the past. Dr.K.λogosπraxis00:01, 30 August 2010 (UTC)Reply
Erm, what is non-neutral in having "Doukas" instead of "Ducas"? What sort of "dispute over the neutrality of viewpoints implied by the title, or the subject matter within its scope" can possibly be derived from a dispute in transcribing the same name in different ways? Does "Doukas" perhaps reflect some nationalistic conspiracy or fringe view that implies any specific POV for the subject matter? Calling this tagging an overreaction would be a euphemism... PMA, you are treading on thin ice the way you are acting about this issue. Constantine ✍ 00:57, 30 August 2010 (UTC)Reply
Does "Doukas" perhaps reflect some nationalistic conspiracy or fringe view that implies any specific POV for the subject matter? Quite possibly; there has never been any other reason to adhere to this bastard (or as the politically correct are saying nowadays, hybrid or syncretic) formation out of the four or five contending systems for Byzantine names. This is half Greek, half English, and all nonsense; it represents kappa in two different ways, pointlessly. Konstantinos Doukas, although egregiously non-English, would be marginally better; best would be a return to the established and wide-spread standard, now emerging again as the scholarly usage. SeptentrionalisPMAnderson18:26, 30 August 2010 (UTC)Reply
And do you have any evidence that this is anything other than your opinion? Any evidence that the former system is "re-emerging"? Because all I can see in published material is quite the contrary. Constantine ✍ 18:43, 30 August 2010 (UTC)Reply
No, I deny that this constitutes an argument against using a system that is becoming more and more established. Transliteration systems are almost always inconsistent or weird-looking. This discussion is not about whether the system is perfect, but about usage. You know the ground rules for WP as well as I do. Come up with evidence on a decline in usage and then we can talk. Constantine ✍ 18:57, 30 August 2010 (UTC)Reply
(edit conflict) A "nationalistic conspiracy" resulting from the usage of the ODB onomatology. This is simply your own conspiracy theory and original research. The same goes for your analysis of the various ways to transliterate "C" or "K" which is is a case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. As far as the old standard "emerging again", I don't see any evidence of that. In fact all evidence points to the ODB becoming even more widespread. Dr.K.λogosπraxis18:46, 30 August 2010 (UTC)Reply
Accusing me of a personal attack without good reason is a personal attack in itself. Your edit warring and your over the top edit summaries mentioning "bastard titles" speak for themselves. I have nothing to add here other than to say that your comments against me are abusive and you should stop this. Dr.K.λogosπraxis18:59, 30 August 2010 (UTC)Reply
"at the urging of Michael's uncle John Doukas," and "John Doukas, a relative of Alexios, conspired against Nikephoros" --- John Doukas (Caesar) is linked twice and introduced in relations to other figure in different ways. Without clicking on it, I had no idea they were the same person. Can you delink the second link to John Doukas and make an explicit connection between the John Doukas mentioned in the first paragraph to the one in the second paragraph.
Done
"After Alexios ascended the throne in 1081, he elevated Constantine to Junior Emperor" - change to junior emperor.
Done
"Constantine was betrothed to Olympias, the daughter of Robert Guiscard." --- Can you introduce who Robert Guiscard was to those not familiar with this period of history and will not make the connection between him and the Normans of Sicily.
Done
"large force to repel the Normans" - This is hard to follow. I am assumimg you mean the forces led by Guiscard. Can you make this more explicit.
"Engraving of Constantine Doukas from the Holy Crown of Hungary" - Can you explain this in the body of the article? It is probably worth mentioning.
Done
Finally, is this all the sources of history knows about Constantine Doukas? Any details about what he was doing during Nikephoros's reign, or details about his death or actions he co-signed or ceremonies he officiated with his senior emperors or was he just a historical footnote?KAVEBEAR (talk) 02:14, 23 July 2018 (UTC)Reply