Talk:Colorado Springs, Colorado/Archive 1

Needs a Culture Section

There is little discussion of the cultural aspects of Colorado Springs, both ethnic and otherwise, other than as straight (and dry) demographics. **Even lack of culture would be a valid topic for such a section. What about ethnic neighborhoods, or less-well physically defined ethnic communities in Colorado Springs? What about ethnic festivals? Restaraunts? Music or other ethnic artistic outlets? And has the military with it's rich diversity caused an influx of various ethnic influences to seed the the city-- and if so, how do these influences express themselves culturally in Colorado Springs?

What about the arts simply for arts sake? Painting? Music? Literature? Are there any art communities or scenes of any note in Colorado Springs? If so this should also be a part of the article.

What about more civic arts like ballet, opera, concert halls and symphonies? And what about jazz clubs, Latin music clubs, bluegrass clubs, rock clubs ect?

Without adding such cultural dimensions (even describing lack of culture, if that's the case), the article ends up being kind of flat.

Sean7phil (talk) 07:22, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Political Demographics

Colorado Springs has a reputation as being a more conservative city than others in Colorado. Is this true? What are the political demographics of Colorado Springs and how does this contrast with it's reputation? How many Conservatives versus Liberals? And what about getting into deeper details like moderate conservatives versus hard-right conservatives versus moderate liberals versus far-left liberals? What is the political feel of the town?

Sean7phil (talk) 07:22, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

It is true. It is as consertivitive as Boulder is liberal. A recent article in the denver post on March 18 titled "Pikes Peak region on brink of fiscal crisis" states that republicans out number demacrats by more then 2 to 1. Now as far as the feel of the city I tend to be consertitive on economic issues but I think this city goes to far. They do not want to seem to spend any tax payer money to help revitalize downtown, thus the city has no inner core to speak of. In fact, Pueblo has a larger downtown then the Springs has. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Josseppie (talk • contribs) 22:54, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Religious Demographics

Colorado Springs is also noted as major Christian town with many major Churches, many of which are described as being more fundamentalist in bent. How does this bear out demographically? Is Colorado Springs really a Christian-dominated town or is that a myth? What percentage of Springs residents consider themselves to be 'fundamentalist', also sometimes called 'evangelical' or 'charismatic' Christians-- versus residents who are Catholic or Lutheran or Methodist? What about non-Christians? How many non-denominational / non-religious people live in the Springs? What about the Jewish community? Buddhists? Muslems? New-Agers? Other?

These kinds of demographics also seem like key potential descriptors of Colorado Springs, as it is often seen by the rest of Colorado, and thus should also be included in the article.

Sean7phil (talk) 07:22, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

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"The city and surrounding areas also host hundreds of churches and synagogues of many faiths and denominations, including a mosque."

-Wow. What a world class city. A MOSQUE!!! Ballin...

Shortening

This is an ENCYCLOPEDIA entry, not a commercial for the springs... the parts are supposed to be concise, leading to larger articles on the individual aspects of the city... if you believe something should be included in the main page, keep it brief, with a link to a larger article on the subject... military bases, for example, might be getting a bit lengthy... I will be destroying transport today because it is far too long, apologies to whoever wrote a news release on wikipedia about it... if you feel strongly, change it back... ViewFromThePeak 01:57, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Granted the shortening of the article is certainly needed, hopefully some of that data can go into a seperate articles. As far as the military section, they are the largest economic contributor, employeer and national/international connection the city has so in terms of important information about the city, it certainly seems worthy of mention. 70.59.212.194 18:38, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

They each have their own full length article for a reason... and they should stay the length they are in the main article... since they are technically not even part of the city. ViewFromThePeak 05:16, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

This (post directly above) sounds like the old local prejudice against military people cropping up-- "they are not even a part of the city". Sorry that prejudice doesn't hold water--

The fact is-- Colorado Springs would be unrecognizable without the huge military community. The members of which by the way can be found in enormous numbers throughout the city and not just around Fort Carson:

Sure it's fair to note native Colorado Springers and native Coloradans as a part of the mix too-- But career military people, not to mention a huge community of former military children-- who, by the way bring a very unique wealth of experience to the city-- are also a major part of the Colorado Springs mix-- and so do deserve plenty of mention.

Sean7phil (talk) 07:40, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Trivia and Residents

current trivia (discouraged and needs to be tied in elsewhere or deleted) and famous residents (what constitutes a resident? how long should they live here? should it be native born or people who called the city an actual home? what constitutes famous? every actor ever residing in the city? ViewFromThePeak 06:23, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

More prejudice against military people? Seems like it.

The military influence is actually very cultural and goes way beyond economic--

The fact is any military town ends up with huge settlements of former military personel and their children who stay on-- Thus the military influence becomes long-term as well as quasi-ethnic; seeding military towns with both more diversity (which mirrors the military's incredible ethnic and racial diversity, not to mention military culture itself) and also seeds the town with a huge wealth of overseas (International) experience and perspective.

You can therefore, by implication, label military people as 'outsiders' all you want-- but they have shaped Colorado Springs profoundly and permanently, and so it would be dishonest not to acknowledge their enormous and rich ethnic and international influence caused by the decades-long seeding of former military personel and families into the Springs.

Sean7phil (talk) 07:51, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Overhaul of Transport, History, and Tourism

In an effort to make the main article look a bit less like a press release for the city of colorado springs, i suggest the transport article be shortened dramatically to mention the major road changes, the airport, and move on. the history page has been moved to its own article at History of Colorado Springs, Colorado, so if you have any suggestions to shorten the main pages synopsis and expand on the new article, feel free to talk. the tourism lists have been moved to Colorado Springs Tourism, so feel free to add any thing to that article, or general facts to the main page ViewFromThePeak 02:25, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Can you list the heavily military neighborhoods?

This would be useful for current/former military folks who want to live near fellow military folks. Keep in mind the military (especially the career military) is almost like an ethnic group (kind of like the Cossaks)--

It's multi-generational for many and, at the very least-- a life-long thing for many more-- so 'being able to find one's people' is a need a lot of military community relocators have. So listing the heavily military neighborhoods would be helpful.

(Also familes dealing with war-time deployment often do better if they are living in neighborhoods with lots of other military families-- who can all give support to each other during war time deployments-- So listing the heavily military neighborhoods can be a way of helping military families find the best spots to live during difficult times).

128.138.230.153 01:08, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Thats what forums are for, not wikipedia... a future article on major neighborhoods may address the subject, but the addition of neighborhoods to an already lengthy article would be overkill ViewFromThePeak 02:10, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

???

Location of heavily military neigborhoods absolutely fits the article format-- The military is a huge part of Colorado Springs and knowing where the heavily military neigborhoods are fits completely with the concept of an article about Colorado Springs.

Major neigborhoods of all types would be an essential part of any article about any major city-- in fact leaving out description of major neigborhoods would be pretty odd for an article about any major city.

Sean7phil 05:15, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I must agreen with Sean7phil. At the very least, Wikipedia is a place for listing the major neighborhoods in cities (see San Francisco, Boston, and Tucson, just to name a few), and this article lacks any information on the city's neighborhoods. I find that a shame because, generally speaking, I would have found that information more useful than some of the info already on the page. Very sadclown.

Poisonveined (talk) 04:01, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Overhaul

Argh! (And talk like a pirate day doesn't come 'round until late next September!) PLEASE sign your posts with 3 or 4 tildes (~~~ or ~~~~), including duplicating that 3 or 4 tilde entry under each new subheading you add if you're adding several at once. I don't know who added all these comments! "I", "I'm", "I'll", "I'd" doesn't tell me who I (tstockma) am talking to! I don't mean this as mean-spirited criticism, it's just a request, thanks. And IMO we need to start deciding what's important enough to include, and what's not, WP isn't just a vast collection of data, it's an encyclopedia.Tstockma 02:16, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh Sorry! Everything below is me and I just feel that I should put down what I'm doing so we can keep track of it and I thought it would be easy to guess it was me, my bad.- Ferrous.01 04:38, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Education, Government, and Transportation

Government

I'm not too knowledgable about the workings of the Colorado Springs's government so if someone could contribute or do something to start it that be cool, if not I'll eventually get around to doing it.- Ferrous.01 22:50, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Education

I'll probably do this next, CS is really entrenched in the colleges and I'll take this time to touch up the sports section.- Ferrous.01 22:50, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Transportation

Stuff like Springs Transit, I-25, possibly a touch on traffic issues and the fact that our road crews move slower then the seasons, I'm talking about you, 7-year project. I also want to do something concerning FREX.- Ferrous.01 22:50, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Definitly add FREX, especially considering that it was recently expanded. Springs Transit is now Mountain Metro and is already in the article. I added a bit about the Powers Bypass Project and several other interchanges under construction at this time. And I agree with you on the roadcrews! It might be worth mentioning that allot of construction is constrained to certain seasons due to that "damn Prebels mouse" -as I have heard it stated on various occasions. Kevin1a 22:38, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Its been a while since anyone has worked on this section, and I am still the last person to discuss it. I think we should ad a section, or a link if an article already exists about the displacement efforts for freight traffic onto the eastern plains in order to free up the tracks for a passanger rail service. Kevin1a [dts] —Preceding undated comment was added at 18:33, 16 October 2008 (UTC).

I believe a section on Transporation infastructure, in general, is appropriate but discussion of very specific transportation issues facing Colorado Springs seems like a bit of a stretch. CáliKewlKid (talk) 22:33, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Sports

If you have anything, add to the table.- Ferrous.01 22:50, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

More Pictures!

I'll be putting in more pictures- Ferrous.01 22:50, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Good Article Status

I'd like to finish up the article and get some one to edit all the grammatical errors, and afterwards I want to nominate it for Good Article status.- Ferrous.01 22:50, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Economy Section Expansion and Military Section Creation/ Mass Add-on

The economy section is lacking and needs more then a list of companies and revenue generating businesses in the area. I think the intro portion of that section should be describing the main industries of Colorado Springs and possible changes and events that have recently occured in the Springs. I also think that there should be a complete section for the Springs ties to the military and how prominent it really is with all the influence they exert.-Ferrous.01 05:36, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I'll do it myself-Ferrous.01 21:54, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

• Yes, CS is pretty, but you cannot eat the mountains. The economy in CS should receive more clarification so people do not get the impression that CS is prosperous to all new comers. CS is still based heavily on defense/Government spending and their retirees. Much of the high tech work is also defense based. The remaining high tech industries have a plentiful local supply of educated professionals, from which to draw. Besides these sectors, CS is still only a traditionally based tourist town. Being a resident here in CS (30+ years), I have seen many people and companies come to CS and not succeed only to return to their point of origin. Sorry to be a wet towel, but CS is not perfect or should be portrayed as perfect.

• Added to the Attraction section-Ferrous.01 21:54, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
• Removed the malls from the attraction list because no one comes to the Springs to go to our malls.-Ferrous.01 21:54, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

No, no one comes to the Springs to visit our glorious malls. But, once they are here, for whatever reason, they might shop at our malls for a variety of reasons. So they are an "attraction" if you're already here. They don't bring 'em here, but once they're here, they're worthwhile to visit (i.e. they don't suck). — Frecklefoot | Talk 17:21, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. Some people DO see shopping malls as tourist attractions, and this becomes an important part of their itinerary. After all, some malls have more to offer than shopping. I would be in favor of including the major malls. Erzahler 19:38, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Alright if you feel they should be there add them back in. -Ferrous.01 20:56, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I see both sides of this, and I think it's OK to list them. They are not destination sites for outsider visitors, but I think good to have on the page. On the other hand, Colorado's number one tourist destination is Cherry Creek Mall in Denver...crazy. To get off-topic, I'm delight with all the attention this page is getting, I put in some serious work on it some months back when nobody seemed to care...and obviously we do care. Thanks, all! Tstockma 14:19, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your input, Tstockma. I don't live in Colorado Springs now, but I did live there for 17 years and do still care about it. Erzahler 19:07, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

• Christian organizations is kinda POV I'm changing it to religous organization.-Ferrous.01 21:54, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
• Added the Broodmoor hotel to the attractions list.-Ferrous.01 21:54, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
• I updated and changed the intro.-Ferrous.01 21:54, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
• I changed the downtown picture near attractions and got rid of the red links in attractions.-Ferrous.01 21:54, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the improvements. If you think the Broadmoor "a" is too silly feel free to undo that edit. Cheers, -Will Beback 00:07, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah I changed it but thanks for the spelling edit-Ferrous.01 21:54, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

• Added the world arena and got rid of the red links-Ferrous.01 21:54, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
• I added a new part to the history section entailing the springs involment with the military-Ferrous.01 21:54, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
• Added a picture of Peterson AFB-Ferrous.01 21:54, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
• Added to the intro, I did add that the springs is higher then Denver and it may seem POV but it's true. Say something if you don't like it. Got rid of it, NM.-Ferrous.01 21:54, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
• Merged the two Palmer sections and reduced some parts due to them talking about General Palmer who has his own article where that information can be found. But I kept all the info pertaining to Colorado Springs which was about 7/8ths of it.-Ferrous.01 21:54, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
• Killed the red links.-Ferrous.01 21:54, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
• Created two non-existant articles for the Colorado Springs article they are Will Rogers Shrine of the Sun and Spencer Penrose, so go out and add to them!-Ferrous.01 21:54, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
• I created a colorado-springs stub template so you can find articles to edit quicker the stub category is Category:Colorado Springs stubs so go there and help.-Ferrous.01 21:54, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
• Added a table to the sports section add to hearts desire.-Ferrous.01 21:54, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
• I think were a large city, I mean were 49th largest so I changed mid-sized to large.-Ferrous.01 21:54, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
• Added a large part to the economy section-Ferrous.01 21:54, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Were one of the top fastest growing economies in the nation!-Ferrous.01 21:54, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Defense, all the contracting the military does-Ferrous.01 21:54, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Defense companies-Ferrous.01 21:54, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Hi-Tech, we do alot of chip manufacturing here-Ferrous.01 21:54, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Added a lot of general info about the city's economy-Ferrous.01 21:54, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
• Added a large part to the military section-Ferrous.01 21:54, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Added all the involvment of missle defense
  • Added much of the groups stationed around the city's bases-Ferrous.01 21:54, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Threw in NORAD-Ferrous.01 21:54, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Did a thing on the Special forces being here.-Ferrous.01 21:54, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
  • General things-Ferrous.01 21:54, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
• Finished both the military and economy add-ons-Ferrous.01 21:54, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Go ahead and edit at will or whatever you see fit.-Ferrous.01 21:54, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

31 kb long

We've hit the 30 kb bar, any disscussion on this?

Hmm, I'm a bit new to wikipedia editing, and didn't know about that limit. I can do some cleanup on my early history stuff. I _love_ where you're going with the military history, and I think the current roles of several of those bases ought be documented as well. What would you think about we splitting our military history section into a new article fully detailed, and crafting a more concise summary that links to it? Tstockma 08:12, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't think we need to clean up yet, I mean Denver is close to 50 kb long, and Seattle which is a Featured Article of Wikipedia, is 57 kb long. So I think we're well in the limit I just think we should keep an eye on it. I also don't think we need to move all the military history from the article but a military article with more in it could be possible but difficult. Right now I say we focus on adding to the education and sports sections as well as adding in sections about our transportation and government. That's what I think.- Ferrous.01 17:56, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Uhhh...erghhh...there are times when exceptions to the rule are in order, I haven't recently looked at Seattle and Denver, which do have a broader range of important information to present...but I just read over Colorado Springs, and we're pretty wordy in some sections, including some of my own contributions. I call this quality "crisp" writing (sometimes its lack). Where more direct writing with less filler material make a more direct presentation to the casual viewers, to grok the essence of our city. And, I want to hear from others, as this is just IMHO! Tstockma 05:06, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Which spots specifically =p ?- Ferrous.01 03:14, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

IMO, because this page has grown this large, we could break into sub-pages and could get "crisper". We could trim the intro, a lot of the history section (probably moving most to a separate page, and much of which I wrote), possibly the "Latter 20th century military boom", possibly "tourism and attractions" has non-encyclopediac entries, and perhaps find a more word-economical way to merge "economy>defense" with "military". Plus, the "trivia" truly includes items that are so trivial as to not be worthy of mention. AND, I'd like others to comment on this! Ferrous, I really do appreciate your partnership in creating this page, this is a "call to arms" for others weigh in! Tstockma 02:16, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Hmmmm, I agree with trimming the triva and I agree with trimming down attractions. I don't think we should split it up into completely seperate pages, I think splitting more things into different subsections would be nice. Some parts are a nessecary evil though, such as the economy being the way it is. - Ferrous.01 04:42, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm not seeing any other discussion on this, so I'm guessing it's not much of an issue! I think we can safely leave it alone for now. I'm taking an extended leave of absence from online presence starting probably next week, so I'll see how the page evolves when I'm back late summer or next fall. Regards, all! Tstockma 11:03, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

The Alexander Film Company

Is the Alexander Film Company all that noteworthy? Should we keep it in the article? It seems like just a bit a really obscure trivia (or an ad) that practically no one would care about. —Frecklefoot 18:30, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Okay, I removed the History section with the mention of the Alexander Film Company. As far as I can tell, it has nothing to do with the history of Colorado Springs. Appropriate history topics would include discussions of General William Palmer and Spencer Penrose and other related topics. —Frecklefoot 15:20, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I think someone might want to reconsider that move. Alexander Industries does appear to have a tie to Colorado Springs. I found the following in the Pike's Peak Library District files. Someone might wish to do some research on this. I believe also that KKTV once used some of the old Alexander Film Company facilities for their studios.

ABSTRACT: Alexander Film Company was founded by J. Don and Don M. Alexander in Spokane, Washington in 1919 and moved to Englewood, Colorado in 1923. With the development and manufacture of the Eaglerock airplane, the brothers also founded the Alexander Aircraft Company and the corporate name of Alexander Industries was adopted in 1924. Both the film and airplane companies were included in the corporation. In 1928 the corporation was moved to Colorado Springs after fire destroyed the Englewood plant. The corporation was dissolved in 1932 when the airplane firm filed for bankruptcy, leaving the Alexander Film Company as a single firm incorporated under Delaware corporate laws. The collection contains the correspondence of J. Don Alexander from 1921 to 1945, the bulk of the material falling between 1921 and 1932. Also included within the collection are photographs, magazine articles, clippings, scrapbooks and miscellaneous papers covering a period from 1904 to 1976, and publications and promotional materials related to the Alexander business endeavors during a period from the 1920s to the 1950s. Erzahler 21:00, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Events

I contest the addition of the last two paragraphs under "Events." They are not notable and are narrowly focused. I don't think we should feel obligated to include every bit of trivia regarding the happenings in the city. I live a couple of miles from Academy Blvd (it is a main drag through town) and I never heard about the mentioned event, so it couldn't have been that big of a deal. The "alleged" actions of the police are probably interesting to some, but are not proven and not significant enough to warrant mention. The first paragraph of the "Events" section is fine since, at the time, it was national news. The events in the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs are so obscure that they didn't even warrant mention on local news. If no one can provide an argument as to why they should remain, I'll remove them in the next couple of days. —Frecklefoot 15:36, 11 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and removed the two paragraphs. Indeed, I'm even tempted to remove the mention of the Texas 7. It's an interesting bit of trivia, but I doubt the city has been significantly affected by it enough to justify mentioning it. Alas, for now I'll keep it in there. --Rookkey 03:09, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)

It wouldn't hurt my feelings if it was deleted. :-) It was national news at the time, but I think by now most have forgotten the event. —Frecklefoot 16:01, Mar 15, 2004 (UTC)

Okay, removed mention of the Texas 7. Now there are no historical events listed. --Rookkey 19:44, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I am pretty surprised to see that somebody would remove information on events that happened in the city of Colorado Springs. You contest the events, and I find this absurd for they were national news at the time. The capture of the Texas 7 was national news. There is no way you can dispute this. Also, the Police Spy Files is ongoing national news, with a multitude of lawsuits under litigation, and the events of Feb. 15 2003 show Colorado Spring's relation to the world, as that day was a global day of protest. Colorado Springs is known as a military town, and I think the protest information shows the dynamics of all the interacting communities in Colorado Springs. I will be reverting the changes, as I see no reason to leave information out of an encyclopedia. Punkche 02:20, 22 Mar 2004 (UTC)

First, I don't "contest" that the events happened--I "contest" whether they're worthy of mention on the site. Second, whether an event makes the national news or not has no bearing on whether it's a worthy addition to Wikipedia. Re: War Protest: Do you realize how many cities held Iraq war protests that got somewhat out of hand? If we had to mention every such protest that happened in every city, then Wikipedia would become a cluttered mess. What happened in the Springs was not unique. The small scale of the event and the fact that the extent of the damage were some bumps and bruises justifies not mentioning it. As for the "Spy Files," this is a story that is predominantly happening in Denver, not Colorado Springs. Yet, no mention of the "Spy Files" is made in the Denver, Colorado article. The capture of the Texas 7 is the only event even remotely worth mentioning of the three, and even this is not event that defines why the Springs is what it is today. Go ahead and keep the Texas 7 mention if you wish, but I highly disagree with the other two paragraphs. --Rookkey 21:46, 22 Mar 2004 (UTC)

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Need a redirect?

Wondering if this should be named "Colorado Springs, CO" to match conventions, with a redirect from "Colorado Springs", or at least with a redirect from "Colorado Springs, CO" to here.

lunaverse 01:09, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I'm fairly certain that on Wikipedia the convention is the full city name, comma, space full state name. Since Wikipedia is an international encyclopedia, some non-US users may not be aware that "Nome, AK" is "Nome, Alaska" and not "Nome, Arkansas" or something else. If you look up Denver, Colorado, for example, you'll see that it follows the convention I mentioned above. Colorado Springs already redirects to this article, but if you think Colorado Springs, CO needs to redirect to here, go ahead and make it. :-) — Frecklefoot | Talk 14:22, Aug 26, 2004 (UTC)

Where are the K thru 12 schools, I don't see them on here no where under Education.--JeffreyAllen1975 08:29, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

That really ought to be a separate article, there are over a hundred K - 12 schools within Colorado Springs (an informal count of just the larger districts came to 129), the list is also changing rather rapidly and would be difficult to keep up to date, a more realistic approach would be the listing of School Districts within Colorado Springs. 75.71.23.11 19:21, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

CTU is really more of a trade school or vocational college than an actual university, so if it is listed, that needs to be taken into consideration. However, the school is accredited by North Central, so who knows? Erzahler 00:08, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Photos

Does anyone think it's a shame that this article does not contain any photos at all of the city of Colorado Springs? I encourage anyone who may possess good photos of downtown or recreational sites, such as Garden of the Gods, Cave of the Winds, to add them to the article. I personally will be seeking permission from the city's website, and Urban Colorado to add some of their photos which may be copywritten, but it may take a while for me to be granted permission. If you have quality photos of your own, why not add them? Steve

I'll dig through my collection--I might have a few of the GotG. Please sign your posts with 3 or 4 tildes (~~~ or ~~~~). The latter is generally preffered since it also adds a timestamp. — Frecklefoot | Talk 16:57, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)

This article now contains pictures. But, I think this page is missing a picture that adequately captures how Pikes Peak dominates the Colorado Springs skyline. It is beautiful, and should be a part of this page. To that end, anyone who could help would be appreciated. TwasBrillig 04:55, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

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Whence photo?

What happened to the photo that was in the article? Who deleted it? From what I remember, it was a public domain or GFDL image—there was no reason to delete it. — Frecklefoot | Talk 13:43, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Missing Sections

How about...

• History of... local newspapers, streetcars, economy

Also, it's probably note-worthy that CO Spring's is Colorado's conservative metro area?

Ken

A good idea! Colorado Springs did once have two newspapers. I believe there was also a trolley line, and a short rail segment that connected the old Santa Fe freight house with the main railroad depot. I think it might have run along Kiowa Street, but I don't remember. Erzahler 01:23, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Colorado Springs still has two newspapers. The Gazette is the cities largest and most widely circulated newspaper, but the Independent is becoming more and more popular. It started with a reputation of being very leftist, shrill, and anti-establishment, but it has moderated considerably. It is very popular with young people, and the more liberal members of the community. Kevin1a —Preceding undated comment was added at 18:30, 16 October 2008 (UTC).

Pioneer's Museum

Thanks for putting the link back. I have been to the museum, and it is indeed a museum of history, not a tourist trap as someone else has suggested. Erzahler 01:18, 21 January 2006 (UTC) former resident of Colorado Springs (17 years)

Another person of interest to list is Richard Michael "Goose" Gossage who is a C/S native and was a MLB pitcher for 21 seasons. He is not in the Hall of Fame yet but has come close and might still get in.

William Jackson Palmer start a steel mill?

Did not William Jackson Palmer start a steel mill down in Pueblo to supply rails for his railroads?

My understanding is that Gen. Palmer founded Pueblo and Grand Junction as well as Colorado Springs.

List of dystopian attributes in Colorado Springs needed

The current entry for Colorado Springs is biased more towards a positive representation that some would expect more from a tourist board. I believe there should be a more verbose listing of the current dystopian attributes of Colorado Springs thus giving a more realistic representation. Example, there is little information on unemployment, homeless, mortgage default, and crime rates in the entry. I recently attended a meeting where the police said property crimes were up 100+% and code enforcement is working overtime to make the place look pretty despite the local economy. This list would not only benefit the City, but also those who are wanting to come to Colorado Springs.

Isn't "dystopian" a little melodramatic? Enkrates 06:49, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Not really, My family has lived here for 30+ years so using dystopian is not over the top. Besides are you hinting that CS is a utopia? Would you have another word that would suffice for dystopia?

Dystopia, myopia, you are being very short-sighted. The entry section contains an entire 'graph on urban problems. Did you try to get into the AFA and got rejected? Please, let's call the whole thing off.

Ok, let us say 30+ years of emperic experience makes one short sighted. I believe it is prudent that people and CS should see the several problems that CS has in common with other cities. This would ultimately lead to an improvement of CS. Nice ad hominem attack about the AFA, but no. Also, recently in the Gazette, an article said that CS may enter a recession next year and Intel is laying off people.

Dystopia A recession doesn't exactly qualify. The article deals with the problems of the city. Let's move on. Enkrates 07:33, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Demographics Questioned

Because of Ft. Carson and several near by military bases are not considered part of CS, yet are near or in part surrounded by the new parts of CS, the demographics may not reflect accurate numbers. Because of the size of metro CS, being the majority of El Paso county, county demographics may be more accurate.

Although this is correct to an extent, El Paso County demographics would need to include "suburban" areas as well, such as Monument, Black Forest, Falcon, Fountain, etc... The information is based on what can be obtained through other means. If someone knows of a demographic site that lists county specific demographics, it's something to look into. The problem with military bases is the demographics drasticly change over time, given the nature of the military, in comparison to a generally steady change in civilian demographics. Trodaikid1983 20:09, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Never the less, the bases should add to the population of the Springs because they are not currently part of the springs and are either touching or surrounded by the Springs. In theory, a small town of 10 people could be next to a large base of tens of thousands, yet the demographics would not show that fact. There should be a note or something to show CS metro area is bigger than the stated demographics.

As mentioned in a post in a section farther up in Discussion-- the military, despite it's transient aspect, actually profoundly affects local demographics by "seeding" the local community with thousands of retirees as well as younger dischargees, not to mention many former military children who themselves are a very unique & culturally complex demographic.

This "seeding" not only reflects the rich ethnic and racial diversity of former military personel & families-- but also brings an indirect but very extensive and significant international influence due to the rich overseas living exeperiences of former / current military personel and their families.

Thus the cultural military influence on the Springs is quite significant, and the international ties of the City are also quite significant.

Sean7phil (talk) 09:24, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I added this section to the article under 'demographics':

"The diversity of the military populations has had a lasting impact on the rich ethnic and racial makeup of Colorado Springs: Military retirees and former military dependents who have settled in the area, a very diverse population with wide-ranging international experience and connections, have made the city one of the most culturally and racially diverse parts of Colorado and the Mountain West."

66.227.84.101 (talk) 00:14, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Removal of Lists

I am suggesting the removal of lists from this page. Lists generally look OK if used sparingly, but this site uses way to many lists. Denver was an article that contained a large amount of lists but was changed dramatically, mostly to prose. Prose looks better in encyclopedia format, in my opinion. Trodaikid1983 20:15, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Requested articles

There should be an article on Mayor Bob (Robert M. 'Bob' Isaac), a notable biography several times over in his own right. Chris 15:51, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

and Jed Jackson and Hal Kennedy

Community Prep Charter School, Colorado Springs

James Irwin Charter High School, Colorado Springs

Sierra High School, Colorado Springs

Evergreen Cemetery

Pikes Peak or Bust Rodeo

Kintetsubuffalo (talk 09:49, 15 December 2006 (UTC).

IMHO: Most of these requests would just add more clutter and provide too little usable information for most readers.

Well, that's your opinion. The bulk of these are actually on pre-existing lists of requested articles elsewhere on the Wikipedia. Chris 18:01, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

To be frank, considering your judgment regarding Try Redemption, shouldn't you be more open to suggestions that your list of articles is not relevant to Wikipedia? Enkrates 06:57, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

It's not my list, it is a list created by others. And you are rude among other things. The "helpful" listed on your user page is not one of them. Chris 22:25, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Uh-huh. I decline to respond to your insults, but I will remember to point to this in the future as an example of your difficulty working within the Wikipedia community. And, as someone who has had articles I've started deleted, I still contend that humility is the most productive attitude to have here. Enkrates 08:43, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Population Density

The population density, according to the numbers provided, is wrong. By my calculations, the density should be 767.25/km² and 1,942.9 /m². I am not positive these are the correct numbers and I can't find any documented source on this.204.117.197.4 15:12, 30 October 2006 (UTC)cmarie

Rocky Horror

I think it should be mentioned that Colorado Springs is the only city and/or town in the state of Colorado that regularly hosts showings of The Rocky Horror Picture Show. Not so much because of the showings, but because this is Colorado Springs (with Focus on the Family and New Life) and it is The Rocky Horror Picture Show, which you would expect to find more in Denver.

--http://www.rockyhorror.com/participation/showingslist.php

I do not think Focus on the Family or New Life has anything to do with the The Rocky Horror Picture Show being shown in CS. This rather would suggest that CS lags behind Denver and Colorado by ten/twenty years in culture and disposable income. The radicals else where have evolved from the quaint days of the The Rocky Horror Picture Show.

No it doesn't. But it is ironic that it's the only place in Colorado where it's shown regularly.

Visit http://www.denverrhps.com/ Trodaikid1983 21:51, 11 January 2007 (UTC) I have seen it in Denver more than once.

I think that is an interesting point. It shows that there is a possible undercurrent of resistance (even if small) to the 'social conservatism' associated with the local Christian evangelical communities.

24.8.106.182 (talk) 14:06, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

That was only the Red Hour. It is obvious you are not part of the body of Landru ;-). I have been in the Springs over 25 years and "the local Christian evangelical community" that permeates and controls CS is mostly wishful thinking by both sides. In CS, I have only run into a few real die hard Bible thumpers or their followers over the years, or even Christians who have opened and read the whole Bible, while I have run into many scores of "counter-culture" types. From my empiric experience, I would say CS is full of more "pseudo-Christians" (scrape the icing on the cake and you will really find a non-erudite heathen) than real Christians and the so called "resistance" needs to start hanging with the loads of interesting people that are here already. If anything, the churches need to start doing some work on their flocks and the people in CS to turn them into real Christians. This would greatly reduce the number of people who are driven to want a "counter culture" solely to offend the "Christians in name only" that sadly they had the misfortune to meet in CS. Septagram (talk) 03:27, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

"The Beach"

Someone from IP 67.165.212.180 has been changing the nickname to "The Beach", which I certainly have never heard before. I assume this person is acting as a vandal, and if they change it again, I will look into how to ban someone from editing. Just FYI to everyone. Enkrates 08:58, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

While I have not been doing the editting I believe it is a 'slang' nickname for Colorado Springs used because Colorado Springs sits on the edge of a huge mountain range, much like a beach sits on the edge of a huge body of water. I cannot attest to the validity and commanility of the nickname but I have definitely seen and heard it used to refer to Colorado Springs. Other nicknames would include: "C. Springs", "C/S", "The Springs", and "Colo Spgs" (the former being used more as shorthand and only jokingly in speech). 70.59.194.197 09:38, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

If anyone can find some substantial citations, that'd be great. Enkrates 08:07, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

"The Beach" could be a further play on "Port Carson" or "Port Cartoon" used as a slang name for Fort Carson Army Base. I have heard that term passed around affectionately for years by army personnel. Yet, most wiki readers would find such detailed information of little use. I have heard “The Springs” is the most common nickname (besides others too unfit to print), so let’s move on, nothing to see here folks.

"Family Research Institute"

Any source for it actually being located in Colorado Springs, it's website has a 303 (DENVER) area code and only a PO Box in Colorado Springs. It states "Evangelical groups with headquarters at Colorado Springs" -- if their offices are not located in the Springs they shouldn't be on the list. 75.71.23.11 04:32, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

The Colorado Springs phone book makes no mention of the institute, and the PO Box is not enough to keep them, so i will be deleting them. If any evidence comes up that they do reside in the city, feel free to add them back. ViewFromThePeak 02:08, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Name Change

This article should be restored to its original name Colorado Springs, Colorado, per the guidelines of WP:NC:CITY. VerruckteDan 04:16, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Because guidelines in WP:NC:CITY override the guidelines pointed to in Audacity's move reason, I am going to move it back.

--FastLizard4 (Talk|Contribs) 22:36, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

I have restored the article to Colorado Springs, Colorado. VerruckteDan 15:30, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I missed this discussion. No, Wikipedia:Naming conventions (settlements) states that "The general rule is to name an article about a city or town with a name that does not conflict with any other town or concept as city name." There is no other Colorado Springs; thus, the article title should be Colorado Springs. Λυδαcιτγ 03:29, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

But if you go the the United States section, you'll see that the standard is "City, State" the comma convention. This is the guideline for US locations, so it should remain at Colorado Springs, Colorado. VerruckteDan 05:02, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I propose that with a current population of over 400,000, the title should go back to Colorado Springs. Both other US top 50 equal-sized cities named for the states in which they are located (Oklahoma City and Virgina Beach) do not contain the state designator. This just emphasizes the perception that Colorado Springs is still a small, unknown village in middle America. -kar54, 17:33, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Merge History of Colorado Springs, Colorado into Colorado Springs, Colorado

• Merge - History of Colorado Springs talks about the city in the article Colorado Springs, Colorado, and, as such, should be merged into "History" section of Colorado Springs, Colorado. --FastLizard4 (Talk•Links•Sign) 04:33, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
• Merge - the fork is not yet well-written or complete enough to be a standalone article, and repeats many of the things in this article while leaving others out. Not yet ready for primetime. Chris 05:40, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Trivia elimination

Trivia was eliminated but that information was not integrated into the article? What gives? If you want to eliminate it, per Wiki conventions, at least have the deceny to integrate it where appropriate. I intend to restor or integrate myself unless some reasonable objection is made. We're supposed to be working toward making a perfect article, but that doesn't mean throwing out the baby with the bathwater. 216.253.200.212 (talk) 19:30, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Photo in lead

The picture in the lead could be any one of dozens of cities on the great plains. It does nothing to show the spectacular beauty of the Springs. Would anyone be able to find something better? Sunray (talk) 03:37, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Seriously, the photo is taken from the side of I25... there has to be a better view. I know the article needs a view of the cityscape, but this photo doesn't capture the good part of the springs: the mountains, which are behind the camera. My friend is moving down to the springs in a couple of weeks, should I beg him to put up a better photo, or does someone have a better one lying around? --75.166.113.110 (talk) 09:21, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

We should avoid too good of a picture less we give unknowing people an inflated perception that the Springs is a perfect pretty city.Septagram (talk) 05:23, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

A friend has just taken a picture of C.S. with a mountain backdrop. Should be able to flash it up in a day or two. Sunray (talk) 04:47, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Still waiting on that one. Meanwhile, I found one that at least shows the mountains in the background. Shall hope for something better. Sunray (talk) 19:55, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

A quick sampling over other highly rated city websites reveal a lot of skyline shots with prominent geography. In other words, it's a visual representation of the city from a broad perspective. The current arieal photo gives a sense of the mountains and the plains but is dated, you can tell just by looking at the image, it is missing so much east-side development (it's from 2006). It is a cool image but is it most representative of a mid-size city with a downtown and unusual geographical location (near Pikes Peak)? Perhaps a compromise would be similar to the New York City article where multiple well-known shots were included. Perhaps the most representative photo of the Springs would be a shot of the mountains in front of the thousands of cookie-cutter homes on the eastern plains, a great view but too far to easily partake in the benefits of the Front Range mountains. Forgive the sarcasm. First and foremost we are known as the city at the foot of Pikes Peak... So any picture representative of Colorado Springs *must* include Pikes Peak. Second, it is the City of Colorado Springs, so it should include some sort of representation of the fact we are a city. Any other considerations? So far as using a single image... As it stands, I think a shot including the skyline+Pikes Peak is most appropriate and should be what we seek to include. CáliKewlKid (talk) 22:50, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Lead photo, part 2

I reverted the recent replacement of the lead image. The replaced image had a bag of garbage and other trash on the side of the road. I think we can find something better that this for the lead. Postoak (talk) 00:28, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

I found a better image on flickr. Postoak (talk) 00:53, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Hey I really like the new photo. It doesn't get Pikes Peak but it does get the mountains and downtown. Very, very nice. Good work, whoever. CáliKewlKid (talk) 20:57, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, much better. Shows the city well. Sunray (talk) 17:28, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Gen Palmer statue information is false

The information listed about the horses feet and the method in which Gen Palmer died is an urban legend. Check out the Snopes page (http://www.snopes.com/military/statue.asp) for proof. Peter Rousseau - Webmaster, NLAA (talk) 07:22, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

thanks for noticing that. I've (belatedly) removed it.   Will Beback  talk  23:23, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

"Concerns and Improvements"

The "Concerns and Improvements" section is interesting, but it seems to be undue weight. Since much of the material is speculation it might be better to trim it to a couple of sentences and merge it back in to the transportation section. The I-25 article would be a good place for some of the details about that highway. Thoughts?   Will Beback  talk  23:16, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Budget woes in opening paragraph?

This has been at the end of the opening paragraph for a while now: "However, by 2010, the city was in such dire economic straits that its city government made deep cuts to many services, including public safety (fire and police), transit service, and parks and recreation." and links to a Denver post article. However, under the Current Issues section, we have this: "As a result the city reduced fire and police jobs, stopped paving roads, eliminated evening and weekend bus service, reduced public trash control, and asked residents to mow the grass in their neighborhood parks." with a link to the exact same Denver article. The double criticism seems a bit excessive and I've not seen anything like it in any other city article. I suggest we cut it from the intro and leave it in the current issues section, thoughts? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gideon989 (talk • contribs) 21:23, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

adults going back to school in colorado springs and there are no jobs to pay off their students loans

local economy question from 2011

Colorado Springs so call colleges offer education; but when you complete the course-THERE ARE NO JOBS to pay off you student loans — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.240.11.58 (talk) 20:40, 21 June 2011 (UTC) Please talk about improving the article on Colorado Springs and not about Colorado Springs' duplicity. Besides I'm sure CS is not the only city in the US where there are "lots of jobs" while one is going to school and they evaporate right at graduation. That is not the City's fault, but the school's. BTW did you graduate with a high tech degree?Septagram (talk) 20:19, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

When did Evangelicals start flocking to Colorado Springs and why?

This would be useful information. 75.70.204.208 (talk) 22:45, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Why was this moved against convention and without discussion?

Old conversation from 2013 resolved long ago

WP:USPLACE states very specifically that there are only 20 cities in the entire US that can and should have their articles named by just the city name. This is not one of them. It will be moving it back. I do not want to create a mess trying to do it myself, so I will be posting a request at WP:ANI. If you want to move it, start an RfM. John from Idegon (talk) 07:05, 18 November 2013 (UTC) I guess someone was bold as it seems like a reasonable move. It is a large city and the state name is in the city name. I don't see anyting at WP:USPLACE about only 20 cities are allowed. It says "Cities listed in the AP Stylebook", which doesn't appear to be publicly posted. --Pmsyyz (talk) 19:33, 21 February 2014 (UTC) That is the twenty cities. If you follow the footnote #2 at WP:USPLACE, it will show you the list of the twenty cities. This has been a long term problem, sometimes contentious, on the names of other city articles and really shouldn't be the subject of a WP:BOLD move. IMHO, having too much info in the title is much better than not enough. Of course the editor that did it did it in good faith; he is somewhat new and didn't know the history of the issue. John from Idegon (talk) 20:30, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Structure

Hi. I'm going through all the US Cities (as per List of United States cities by population) in an effort to provide some uniformity in structure. Anyone have an issue with me restructuring this article as per Wikipedia:WikiProject Cities/US Guideline. I won't be changing any content, merely the order. Occasionally, I will also move a picture just to clean up spacing issues. I've already gone through the top 20 or so on the above list, if you'd like to see how they turned out. Thoughts? Onel5969 (talk) 16:14, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

I am all for that! I think uniformity within a particular category of articles makes the Encyclopedia much more user friendly. John from Idegon (talk) 19:14, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Still, two years later, Onel5969 continues to keep the article follow concensus guidelines, thank you so much for helping the community. --Potguru (talk) 15:39, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Complexities of the mindset of government and population

WP:SOAPBOX

40 years ago the mayor of Colorado Springs offered fundamentalist Christian organizations a tax break to set business up in Colorado Springs , for business he poses . . . MONEY. The military has had a presence for decades . This may not be final post . . . Yet thauthoritiew are closing in. This culture (in Colorado Sspoings) is against creativity , against liberalism, totally against any outside culture that might have at any time -- been an """"enemy""" of the United States. I am basically in Anne Franks attic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Denisevosburgh (talk • contribs) 21:25, 8 June 2014 (UTC) 40 years of preaching in CS and it still has yet to make a dent. Can you blame some religious people staying away from CS unless they are properly compensated for their troubles? As for the military and the money it brings, let's say you can't eat the mountains (i.e. view). I think the problem is some people are accusing CS residents of having a mind or no less even a mind set (I won't even conjecture on CS politics ;-)). Alas, you could go anywhere else and find the exact same. As for destroying culture, creativity, or anything intellectually positive, the people of CS are most likely as good or bad as the rest of the world in that time honored ability. May I suggest you leave your attic and check out several of the academic institutions and groups in CS that promote "free" thinking and boat rocking. Last time I checked there are still several dozen around. As for adding of this this to the CS article it would be a waste of space since as said before, nothing is different than most other places. Septagram (talk) 06:43, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, Denisevosburgh, for providing some information towards answering the 2011 question #When did Evangelicals start flocking to Colorado Springs and why? earlier on this page. If anyone can find a reliable source for the public announcement of a tax incentive from the early 1970s for religion-themed organizations, that might be an interesting and informative addition to this article.  Unician ∇  06:03, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Cheyenne Canyon

Related content discussed here was moved to new article in 2015

Moved to Talk:Cheyenne Mountain § Cheyenne Canyon Steel1943 (talk) 21:35, 1 February 2015 (UTC) Citations needed Several edits have no citations. Please cite any new material, and challenge unverified content. If you can find a reference, add it as a citation. Thanks! Mattjtutt (talk) 05:59, 28 August 2012 (UTC) Cheyenne Mountain (related to Cheyenne Canon) Moved to Talk:Cheyenne Mountain § Cheyenne Mountain (related to Cheyenne Canon) Steel1943 (talk) 21:35, 1 February 2015 (UTC) Additions/Changes to Notable Residents Should the notble residents be updated to include Peter C. Lemon and Nikolai Tesla? Mr. Lemon is is a Medal of Honor recipient, a local resident and businessmen, and a regular speaker at regional and national events. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_C._Lemon Nikolai Tesla was an inventor and engineer best known for his work in the formative of commercial electricity. While the structure(s) he used in the city are long since gone, the city has placed a sign in Memorial Park recognizing his work was conducted in the general area. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Tesla#Colorado_Springs I know adding every notable person to ever live in the city might be too lengthy and unappealing, but to be honest, I think these two would round out the types of notable persons listed. We currently list two writers/artists, two musicians/groups, and 5 professional/olympic athletes. Considering the importance of the US Military on Colorado Springs, isn't a Medal of Honor recipient worth listing? And Nikola Tesla is somewhat recognizable to many, if not as well known as Edison. I think he makes a good historical figure to reference besides the 'founders'. Jeffp231 (talk) 17:55, 31 January 2011 (UTC) Update.. as Onel5969 correctly points out articles about cities with separate lists of people typically do not need those same people mentioned in the article. Would anyone mind, particularly, if we mentioned some of the original pioneers who created the town? Perhaps people whose histories are older than 100 years? I propose these significant persons should be included in the page: William Jackson Palmer, for his founding the city Zebulon Pike, for whom Pikes Peak is named Spencer Penrose, for his significant contributions to the city Nikola Tesla, for his important work at Knob Hill, CO --Potguru (talk) 01:52, 4 April 2016 (UTC) Cheyenne Mountain Air Force Station / nuclear bunker I've posted a question at Talk:Cheyenne Mountain Air Force Station#Difference between this and Cheyenne Mountain nuclear bunker about the distinction between the Cheyenne Mountain nuclear bunker and the Cheyenne Mountain Air Force Station. Any clarification or input there is much appreciated!--CaroleHenson (talk) 05:05, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

Timeline of Colorado Springs, Colorado

What is missing from the recently created city timeline article? Please add relevant content. Contributions welcome. Thank you. -- M2545 (talk) 09:27, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

There is no mention of Mike Lee's dispensary, one of the first in the state nor any mention of the medical marijuana industry which is currently generating millions of tax dollars for Colorado Springs. No worries, though, I'm here to help!! --Potguru (talk) 04:04, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

March 2016 Marijuana Industry section content dispute

see current Marijuana POV conversation below

March 2016 Marijuana Industry section content dispute I just added some content to the Colorado Springs article. In this edit my changes and some other items were removed with the edit summary "...Rev - pov edits...". I encourage others, including the reverter to discuss things here. If there are no objections after a while, I will just restore it. Thanks. --Potguru (talk) 15:37, 28 March 2016 (UTC) Marijuana Industry On March 21, 2016 Colorado Springs Pot task force made recommendations to the city planners about how to manage the growing marijuana industry. The previous year city records showed 91 licensed medical dispensaries in the city limits. In a controvesial statment the mayor said "that Colorado’s laws “have driven the adolescent perception of risk into the ground.” The Colorado Springs Business Journal reports Colorado has raised more tax selling marijuana annually than it does taxing alcohol. Early in 2016 the FBI raided a marijuana smoke club (social club). The social club and its peers are specific targets of the anti-marijuana government and have been the subject of much consternation over the previous year. The IRS and FBI were 'called in' to investigate when the city was unable to shut the shops down in 2015. On March 22, 2016 in a move likely to generate a lawsuit against the city, the city council voted to ban the reimbursement policy offered by several smokers social clubs in the city. A councilman was quoted as suggesting that marijuana users have no right to associate and reimburse one another under the state constitution. Clubs have eight years to shut down under the current ban and at least one owner is stating he intends to sue. References IMO the items should not be restored. They are WP:POV edits and also violate WP:NOTSOAPBOX. This is an article for general info about the city and its surroundings. It is not the place for an all too specific section like this. MarnetteD|Talk 04:06, 28 March 2016 (UTC) Thanks for contributing. Please tell me which of the aspects of soapbox you are referring to. I'm not seeing that this information falls under any of the five saopbox reasons which are: Advocacy, propaganda, or recruitment of any kind. Opinion pieces. Scandal mongering. Self-promotion. Advertising, marketing or public relations. Thanks for clarifying! --Potguru (talk) 20:31, 29 March 2016 (UTC) As the reverter, I stand by the revert, which was further explained (albeit briefly) on my talk page. This is a clear case of POV pushing. The original commentary included with one-sided sourcing is a rather blatant attempt to push an agenda. As per WP:SOAPBOX, not sure this belongs anywhere on Wikipedia, let alone in this city article. Onel5969 TT me 11:49, 28 March 2016 (UTC) I will point out that your revert took out more than just my (well cited) information that there exists a significant industry in Colorado Springs and it is the marijuana industry. You state "This is an article for general info about the city and its surroundings" yet you removed several edits about the height of the city... references to the pikes peak highway... cleanup of the leadership section... arbitrary removal of a well known nickname for the city, etc. So you don't mind if I put those back, do you? --Potguru (talk) 14:31, 28 March 2016 (UTC)--Potguru (talk) 21:13, 29 March 2016 (UTC) Actually, it didn't. It took out other uncited information, as well as the POV pushing edits as well. It reverted some funky unnecessary reformatting of the infobox, which also included some other uncited information. Onel5969 TT me 17:19, 28 March 2016 (UTC) I remain confused that things like "((seealso|Pikes Peak Highway)) The city maintains the Pikes Peak Highway a fully paved road which rises 14,115 feet above sea level" is some kind of POV edit, please help me understand your thoughts. --Potguru (talk) 00:00, 29 March 2016 (UTC) Pot is a high-profile issue, and the city's decision not to allow retail pot shops certainly deserves some mention in the article. The article is full of detailed info on other aspects of the city. We can quibble about the size of the section, where it belongs (I think in a section under Culture), or the exact wording for NPOV, but there is no valid reason to ban the subject of pot from this article. Plazak (talk) 21:40, 29 March 2016 (UTC) I don't have an issue with mentioning it, simply that the edit was highly POV, and much too extensive for the city article. Onel5969 TT me 01:20, 30 March 2016 (UTC) well how about something like just the first paragraph, then. ===Marijuana Industry=== On March 21, 2016 Colorado Springs Pot task force made recommendations to the city planners about how to manage the growing marijuana industry. The previous year city records showed 91 licensed medical dispensaries in the city limits. In a controvesial statment the mayor said "that Colorado’s laws “have driven the adolescent perception of risk into the ground.” The Colorado Springs Business Journal reports Colorado has raised more tax selling marijuana annually than it does taxing alcohol. Is this a good start? Can you help me improve upon it? Thanks! --Potguru (talk) 01:58, 30 March 2016 (UTC) Some readers may not know the background: that Colorado voters legalized recreational pot under state (but not federal) law, but CSprings used its local option under the law to ban recreational pot shops within the city (I have not been following it closely up here in Denver, so correct me where I am wrong). Labeling the mayor's statement "controversial" seems POV. The phrase "growing marijuana industry" as used here implies that it is growing within Colorado Springs. Is this so? If it is, it needs a citation. Regards. Plazak (talk) 02:33, 30 March 2016 (UTC) Per your suggestion I just added a paragraph under the culture section. The mayor's statements and actions are controversial, he does not side with the popular vote in his continued stand against recreational shops. The industry is in a moratorium state in Colorado Springs until May though the tax revenue from shops appears to continue to climb. (seeking citations). --Potguru (talk) 02:41, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

March 2016 people of Colorado Springs Historic People section dispute

see current Historic People conversation at top of this page

clipped --Potguru (talk) First, my suggestion is that you learn how to format discussions. These silly yellow boxes don't help your cause. Second, posting here and on my talk page is redundant. My more detailed response is there. Adding a list to the city page, while there exists a list of notable folks is redundant. A combative attitude doesn't help, either. Your zeal is appreciated, and you've made some good edits, but you've also made some inappropriate ones. It's a learning process. Onel5969 TT me 14:34, 29 March 2016 (UTC) clipped --Potguru (talk) 21:15, 29 March 2016 (UTC) Talk page sections are not erased except in extraordinary situations and this is not one of those. MarnetteD|Talk 20:47, 29 March 2016 (UTC) I invited the editor and you too, to take this conversation where it belongs... up top. You seem to be combative and hostile, please stop... I am not your enemy. --Potguru (talk) 21:16, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

March 2016 Marijuana tourism section dispute

see current Marijuana POV conversation below

March 2016 Marijuana tourism section content dispute I just added some content to the Colorado Springs article in [this edit]. While I was mid edit another editor came in [reverted my edit] My change, while minor, deserves a mention in the article as the idea that Colorado Springs in the largest city in the state to disallow recreational marijuana is a major issue and this particular edit deals with tourism. The town next to Colorado Springs allows dispensaries and that city has increased it's tax revenue by more than 30% in the last year due solely to marijuana tourism, a subset of tourism. My changes were removed with the edit summary "(a) this has nothing to do with this section and b) it is WP:UNDUE as it does not relate to anything else in the article ." from a user who is also contesting my addition of marijuana industry information to the same page. I encourage others, including the reverter to discuss things here. If there are no objections after a while, I will just restore it. Thanks. --Potguru (talk) 20:21, 29 March 2016 (UTC) References The item as written had nothing to do with tourism. Once again you are using WP:OR and WP:SYNTH in your editing. Please read and learn WP:NOT in particular WP:NOT#JOURNALISM. As presented the item is entirely WP:UNDUE. Thus, there are objections and the item should not be restored based on these policies and guidelines. As pointed out to you previously there are other places on the net where you can present your thoughts about the situation. MarnetteD|Talk 20:46, 29 March 2016 (UTC) With all due respect "The item as written had nothing to do with tourism." As I said above I was mid-edit. I also suggested you not assume my edits are soapbox unless you can point to a specific reason that, perhaps, I am missing. --Potguru (talk) 21:11, 29 March 2016 (UTC) First please stop putting your replies in small - it is unnecessary. Next once you hit the "save page" command you are no longer in "mid-edit" and, in fact a full seven minutes had passed from the time that you made the entry until I removed it which is more than enough time to make any further changes. MarnetteD|Talk 03:40, 30 March 2016 (UTC) I'm sorry, I'm trying to be quiet and learn. I was in the middle of a submission and I stopped because someone had edited the page and there was a conflict with my proposed new edit. I'm sorry I took so long. --Potguru (talk) 14:33, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

"Marijuana centers" POV

I’m afraid that the recent addition under “Marijuana centers” is highly POV. For instance, the phrase:

“Despite being the second-most populous city in the state, Colorado Springs has yet to embrace recreational marijuana”

The statement strongly implies that there should be a correlation between the size of a city, and whether or not the city chooses to “embrace” marijuana. Please explain why this should be so.

“stand in the way of the people”

Besides the overdramatic posturing, the truth behind the statement is dubious. The initiative itself recognizes that localities can set a maximum number of pot stores, and the enabling legislation recognizes that that maximum number can be zero. And before we get too teary-eyed about the will of “the people,”, remember that “the people” also elected the CSprings mayor and city council; so the will of the people can be asserted on both sides.

Also, to say that the AG “capitulated” is more overdramatic license. It is his job to enforce the law, and he did. Regards. Plazak (talk) 03:19, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Agree completely. The same WP:OR and WP:SYNTH problems keep occurring. MarnetteD|Talk 03:35, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Yes, highly problematic POV edits. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 03:44, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Please then, with all due respect, make me a better editor by improving what I wrote so it is NPOV. notes: "And then there are still other counties and cities — most notably, Colorado Springs — that allow medical sales but prohibit recreational businesses". --Potguru (talk) 01:02, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

OK, here's my own suggestion. Citations are put (in parentheses):

Although Colorado voters approved a constitutional amendment in 2013 legalizing retail sales of marijuana for recreational purposes, the amendment and enabling legislation also provided that localities could limit or ban retail outlets within the city. A majority of Colorado Springs voters approved the statewide Amendment 64, by almost 5,000 votes out of more than 200,000 ballots cast. The city council then voted 5-4 not to permit retail shops in the city. Some council members expressed concern over the effect pot shops would have on existing businesses, as well as on local military bases.(“Pot may be legal in Colorado, but it can’t be purchased in most large cities,” Tacoma News Tribune, 16 March 2016.) Current mayor John Suthers, elected in May 2015, supports the ban on pot shops; his opponent in the mayoral election supported recreational pot shops as a way to increase city tax collections. Suthers, a former Colorado Attorney General, has long been an outspoken opponent of legalized marijuana.(Thomas E. Cronin and Robert D. Loevy, “John Suthers moves from pot law to potholes,” Colorado Springs Gazette, 30 May 2015.)

Retail marijuana outlets are also banned in unincorporated areas of El Paso County. As of 2016, the only area in El Paso County to permit retail recreational marijuana outlets is the city of Manitou Springs, which adjoins Colorado Springs to the west, and has two retail recreational pot shops, the maximum number allowed by city ordinance.(Colorado Springs Convention and Visitors Bureau, Recreational marijuana, accessed 31 Mar. 2016.)

Medical marijuana outlets continue to operate in Colorado Springs. As of 2015, there were 91 medical marijuana clinics in the city, which reported sales of $59.6 million in 2014, up 11 percent from the previous year.(“Medical marijuana industry still growing in Colorado,” Colorado Springs Gazette, 25 March 2015.) The provisions of Amendment 64 concerning personal use are not affected by the local ban on retail sales, so that growing and possession of small quantities of pot in Colorado Springs are legal under state (but not federal) law.

Note that one of the citations is to a page on the CS Visitors Bureau website. Thoughts? Plazak (talk) 13:43, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

References

Hi Plazak - Way too detailed in my opinion. Something along the lines of:

Although Colorado voters approved a constitutional amendment in 2013 legalizing retail sales of marijuana for recreational purposes, the Colorado Springs city council voted not to permit retail shops in the city, as was allowed in the amendment. Medical marijuana outlets continue to operate in Colorado Springs.“Pot may be legal in Colorado, but it can’t be purchased in most large cities,” Tacoma News Tribune, 16 March 2016.) As of 2015, there were 91 medical marijuana clinics in the city, which reported sales of $59.6 million in 2014, up 11 percent from the previous year.(“Medical marijuana industry still growing in Colorado,”

That covers the issue, without giving undue weight to it. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 20:22, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Plazak thanks for your efforts - and you as well Onel5969. I am thinking along the same lines as O that your version is too detailed for this article. I am wondering if there is another article along the lines of Cannabis policy of Colorado (though that one doesn't seem quite right) that could use your version of the info? I am in favor of placing the shorter version in the article whenever either of you are ready to do so. MarnetteD|Talk 22:15, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

I like the weight balancing. (ADOPTED (sub heading at bottom of culture section)) --Potguru (talk) 00:14, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Yea, I've been working on several articles on the topic. As Plazak points out, it is an important topic; particularly the issue of Colorado Springs lack of adoption of amendment 64 retail stores, the legendary first dispensary created by Mike Lee and of course the interesting issue we face with pot social clubs in the city limits. For those "not in the know" there was a social club operator who just two weeks back offered free joints to adults who helped clean up an area in SW Co Springs. Thanks for all your insightful input I knew you editors could help get me through this incredibly steep learning curve (read: wikipedia editing). --Potguru (talk) 00:14, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

My blurbs scarcely scratch the surface, but if it is judged too long, as MarnetteD has suggested, I can start a section on local cannabis policies in the Cannabis policy of Colorado article, and link to it here. Thanks. Plazak (talk) 00:35, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply Plazak. I know what you are getting at about scratching the surface. You might consider a stand alone article that looks at the way that each individual city has dealt with the situation. That would allow for links to each cities article. Now I am just throwing out another idea. I suspect it would be a lot of work and might not be what you are trying to accomplish. Regards. MarnetteD|Talk 00:43, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, MarnetteD, but this is not really my forte. If some editors more knowledgeable on the subject, such as Potguru, want to expand it to the point where it is log enough to be spun off as a stand-alone article, they are welcome to it. Regards. Plazak (talk) 01:06, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Back again. Regarding the latest addition, I don't know if allowing just 2 pot shops means that Manitou Springs "encourages marijuana tourism." That seems a stretch. If a town really wanted to encourage pot tourism, it would not cap the shops at 2. Plazak (talk) 03:27, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

You are correct Plazak. In fact the ref is about Cannabis clubs and makes no reference to M tourism. While the sales tax numbers are mentioned briefly they are not used to illustrate the point made in the sentence as added to the article. Thus, once again, WP:SYNTH has been used. The section has now been restored to the version agreed upon above. MarnetteD|Talk 03:55, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Precisely, MarnetteD - That's why I worded my version that way. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 04:13, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

It's ok, I've come to save the day with citable evidence!!! "Also, the small, non-urban town of Manitou Springs recently approved such usage as a potential tourism strategy." It's on page 6. After a few, cited, hopefully NPOV edits I left the following:

Marijuana

Main article: Cannabis policy of Colorado § Local option

Although Colorado voters approved Colorado Amendment 64, a constitutional amendment in 2013 legalizing retail sales of marijuana for recreational purposes, the Colorado Springs city council voted not to permit retail shops in the city, as was allowed in the amendment. Medical marijuana outlets continue to operate in Colorado Springs. As of 2015, there were 91 medical marijuana clinics in the city, which reported sales of $59.6 million in 2014, up 11 percent from the previous year but without recreational marijuana shops. The local newspaper reported, in July 2015 that Colorado Springs crimes are down and medical marijuana tax revenue is soaring. In January 2016 Colorado Springs collected one hundred fifty thousand dollars in sales tax from the 91 medical marijuana dispensaries, while neighboring Manitou Springs, which encourages marijuana tourism, collected nearly as much by taxing only two recreational marijuana dispensaries. If allowed to open, city officials estimate Colorado Springs would collect between $500,000 and $900,000 annually in tax revenue only by applying a sales 1% tax levy. --Potguru (talk) 14:21, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

References

First the WP:CONSENSUS is for the info as presented by Onel5969. It is brief, concise and does not stray into WP:ADVOCACY. The info you keep trying to force in is critical of C Springs and its restrictions on the marijuana industry and that will always be WP:POV. It needs to be mentioned that this is not the only Colorado city/town/community to have restrictions. Again this info is fine for your Facebook page but it is not fit for this article. MarnetteD|Talk 15:35, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

I don't understand. How is this critical of Colorado Springs "If allowed to open, city officials estimate Colorado Springs would collect between $500,000 and $900,000 annually in tax revenue only by applying a sales 1% tax levy." or "The local newspaper reported, in July 2015 that Colorado Springs crimes are down and medical marijuana tax revenue is soaring." And if they are, please try to teach me to be a better editor by fixing the text, not continuing to remove it. Same question for "In January 2016 Colorado Springs collected one hundred fifty thousand dollars in sales tax from the 91 medical marijuana dispensaries, while neighboring Manitou Springs, which encourages marijuana tourism[5], collected nearly as much by taxing only two recreational marijuana dispensaries." Manitou Springs and Colorado Springs are neighbors and manitou springs is between the city of Colorado Springs and the Pikes Peak highway, owned by Colorado Springs. I can't learn if you just remove and say "POV", that doesn't teach me anything. Thanks!--19:27, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

First, you've been politely requested not to use the small print. Let it suffice to say that any further comments or questions you have, which you insist on continuing to use that font will be ignored by this editor. Other folks might not have an issue with it. Some do. I'm one of them. Second, you are an advocate. The fact that you can't see how your edits are POV pushing, when its been explained to you several times, means perhaps that you should stay away from editing on that subject. Every time you edit something with a POV issue, that particular edit doesn't need to be explained to you. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 00:00, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

Fire Fire Fire

see current discussion on concensus request immediately below

When I came to this page there was not a single mention of fire on this page. I am flummoxed. Black Forest Fire Hayman Fire Waldo Canyon fire So I will figure out how to add this. Thoughts? --Potguru (talk) 00:01, 1 April 2016 (UTC) This is kind of the same philosophy which led you to delete the AFA from the article. None of these fires were actually in CS. Onel5969 TT me 00:30, 1 April 2016 (UTC) I cannot disagree with your logic. These items are all, perhaps, "greater Colorado Springs metro area" issues. Now I'm confused how to proceed. Do the bases belong here or the fires belong somewhere else? Colorado_Springs_metropolitan_area El_Paso_County,_Colorado --Potguru (talk) 02:23, 1 April 2016 (UTC) That's something that should be derived at by consensus at the talk page of the article. It varies city by city. Some cities, like Las Vegas, limit the article very specifically, most likely due to the fact that local residents are sensitive to the fact that the strip isn't actually in Las Vegas. Others, like Los Angeles, are broader in their approach. When you removed those bases, I didn't revert, since that is a judgement call. My point above is that the article needs to be consistent. If the consensus is to a very strict limit on inclusion in the article, than every portion of the article should abide by that. If there is a slightly broader scope, including its environs, than the entire article should reflect that. Hope that helps. Onel5969 TT me 23:52, 1 April 2016 (UTC) Helps quite a bit, added new section below. Thanks! --Potguru (talk) 20:51, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

Request for consensus on geographic area covered by article

The military bases are not in the city limits nor were any of the major fires, until Waldo Canyon. The Waldo canyon fire destroyed houses in the "Mountain Shadows subdivision in Colorado Springs" and also destroyed thousands of acres outside the city limits.

With significant military bases just outside the city limits and given the city's geographic location, unbuildable mountains to the west, unpopulated plains to the south and east, I believe it would it be appropriate to expand this article to cover a greater metropolitan area. Expanding in that way would allow us to include the military bases and all the important regional events and locations in the article instead of limiting it to the city borders. That said, do you agree or disagree that this article should be expanded to include the areas immediately surrounding the city limits?

References

Agree. I believe, as I stated above, noteable things in the neighboring areas should be covered in this city-centric article such as the fires and military bases along with the areas between the city and the Pikes Peak Highway such as Manitous Springs floods, the Cave of the Winds, Santa's North Pole, "Bust, Colorado" etc. --Potguru (talk) 20:35, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

Military Installation Section Removal

Hi all, in https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Colorado_Springs,_Colorado&oldid=712500875 the entire military section was removed. Subsequently a section "Nearby Military Sites" was added but it provides none of the context that was in the original section on why Colorado Springs is geographically and economically tied to the military. The editor justified it by saying "none of these are in the city" -- even though Peterson Air Force Base is actually within the city limits and USAFA and Carson box in the city. I agree the section warranted trimming but the wholesale removal seemed overboard and indiscriminate.

Peterson, USAFA and Carson are the number 1, 2 and 3 employers in the region. The city is intimately involved with the military and scrubbing that seemed to reflect an uninformed or biased perspective. -- CáliKewlKid (talk) 20:48, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

I concur. General William Jackson Palmer founded the city of Colorado Springs in 1871. While only one of the five bases resides within the city limits of Colorado Springs, all five are contained within El Paso County. Most base workers, both military and civilian, reside within the city limits. Various contracts fuel our city's economy: "The defense industry forms a significant part of the Colorado Springs economy, with some of the city's largest employers being defense contractor." Frankly, the idea of sidelining our city's strong economic and employment ties to the military to a mere listing of bases appears to be very NPOV. Indeed, under NPOV's Things to Avoid: "Some Wikipedians, in the name of neutrality, try to avoid making any statements that other people find offensive or objectionable, even if objectively true. This is not the intent of striving for neutrality." Conclusion: Rebuild the Military Section to include pertinent facts with respect to our city's ties to the military. Include economic amounts and percentages of our city's GDP, some history, current status, and other information objective readers, and perhaps future residents would want to know. Clepsydrae (talk) 01:22, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

External links modified

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