Talk:Caucasus Germans

Parrot's travelogue

I recently re-read Friedrich Parrot's travelogue about his ascent of Mt. Ararat in the early 19th century, so I added something about the passages in which he refers to the German settlers. Where they are quoted, they have been translated by myself. I'm a German native speaker, so I'm thankful if somebody points out stylistically odd parts in the translation. --Ubel (talk) 19:07, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

German colonies in the USSR

(1) There were never any German colonies in what is now Armenia. Germans settled there mostly in big cities in the 20th century but never formed any colonies. This is a list of all German settlements in the USSR prior to 1941: [1]. Good luck finding Armenia there.

Great, but this article is not about Colonies of Caucasus Germans but just Caucasus Germans. In that respect, there are and historically have been Caucasus Germans living in Armenia.

(2) Kars does not qualify as Armenia. The last German colony of Kars was abandoned 4 years before Armenia became independent.

Historically, Kars does qualify as Armenia, like it or not. It was part of successive Armenian kingdoms and dynasties serving as the capital of Bagratid Armenia at one point. It was even part of the Democratic Republic of Armenia.

(3) Listing Nagorno-Karabakh under 'History in Armenia' is simply brilliant. Indeed how much more POV than that could one get? Parishan 23:45, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

If you'll note, I removed that, realizing that it was indeed POV. -- Aivazovsky 00:08, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Are those sites reliable? in the first place second, Kars is not Armenia's obviously previously it may have under certain measures. Artaxiad 23:51, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

There was nothing about Kars that would qualify it as Armenia at the time of the German settlement. Even during Armenia's brief and weak control of Kars in 1919, the Germans had already been long gone from there. And no one really cares what those lands were historically. If we go by history, we might as well rename the 'History in the North Caucasus' section to 'History in Turkey' since the North Caucasus had been part of Turkey long before it became part of Russia and "historically qualifies as Turkey, like it or not." :) Parishan 00:11, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Great, but Turkey never existed until 1923 whereas Armenia has always had a historic presence in Kars. It stills does today, just look at the architecture. -- Aivazovsky 00:26, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

By Turkey I mean the Ottoman Empire of course. As for the historical presence, Armenians constituted only 25% of Kars in 1897 - you might as well come up with an argument involving the historical presence of Kurds, Turks, Greeks, Azeris, and Russians who were present there along with Armenians and erected fine pieces of architecture.

Basically we are looking at a choice between 'History in Kars Province', or 'History in Eastern Turkey', i.e. what that region was at the time of the German migration or what that region is nowadays. Armenia is definitely not an option because factors such as "historical presence" are way too ambiguous and unclear. More than one state and more than one ethnic group have been present historically on these lands, hence they all have equal chances of being mentioned in the Kars section. Parishan 00:41, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Maybe we can compromise. There should be one section on the presence of Caucasus Germans in Armenia and another on their presence in Kars. Note that while there weren't any colonies of Caucasus Germans in Armenia they were (and still are) found scattered throughout the country. -- Aivazovsky 00:44, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, Armenia's German population before the deportation was around 500 persons, which is pretty low compared to the neighbouring regions. But if you think you can find any information regarding their settlement in Armenia, then by all means you can add an extra section on Armenia. Parishan 00:51, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Do you have a reference for that (about the 500 Germans in Armenia)? I'm not challenging this statement, I just need a reference for it. -- Aivazovsky 01:02, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

433 as of 1939 to be precise. This is a link to the 1939 All-Union Population Census results. [2] (in Russian). Parishan 01:25, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

That seems to be correct according to this too, [3] Artaxiad 01:36, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the references, guys. All the best, Aivazovsky 02:15, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Under Soviet History, the section on the expulsion of the ethnic Germans is deficient in the sense that their special hardships are not clearly explained. Because of their location in the Caucasus, they were sent into exile in Central Asia over the Caspian Sea. Because of either poor preparation for these voyages or complete indifference if the ethnic Germans ever reached the other shore, the death rate was abnormally high. I propose to add comments and facts, including eye witness report, to this section Zweisimmen (talk) 22:03, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Kars oblast or guberniya?

Was the Kars territory organized as an oblast or a guberniya? I was under the impression that it was organized as the latter. -- Aivazovsky 22:23, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

The official name was Kars Oblast. Here's an entry from the Russian Wikipedia. Parishan 23:46, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

But some scholars use the term "Kars guberniya". --BurtReed (talk) 17:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Those are most likely mistaken - all sources I have seen, such as contemporary English and Russian encyclopedias, have Kars Oblast. Vmenkov (talk) 17:31, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Scholars mistaken? Practically impossible. I'll find the sources.--BurtReed (talk) 22:37, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

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