Talk:Captain Marvel (DC Comics)/Archive 5

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Article name change to "Shazam"

I believe an article name change to "Shazam" is indeed warranted. Perhaps a few years ago editors were still unconvinced that Shazam would be the character's official name moving forward. However, DC Comics is now using the name Shazam for the character following the New 52 and its subsequent DC Rebirth. DC's own website lists the character as simply Shazam, with Captain Marvel listed as an alias: [1]. While the character was called Captain Marvel, I do not see the justification for using "Captain Marvel (DC Comics)" as the article's name instead of "Shazam", especially with Marvel prominently using the name Captain Marvel in their own franchise and DC using Shazam! as the name of their new film featuring the character. DC Comics clearly uses Shazam as the character's name, and Captain Marvel is misleading, considering he hasn't been called that since 2011. DrRC (talk) 19:57, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

Oppose - The character's biggest claims to notability are from his Captain Marvel years. Argento Surfer (talk) 12:49, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

Oppose per Argento Surfer and WP:COMMONNAME. He's only been Shazam since 2011 and was only really notable (ie selling) as Captain Marvel. — Jon C.^ॐ 14:59, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

Neutral If you look above, this is a debate that's waged on this page for years at this point (since the character's name was changed). I'd said before it'd make sense to change the name of the article when production begins on the feature film, as that's sort of the point where WP:COMMONNAME will start to shift in favor of "Shazam" rather than "Captain Msrvel" (certainly by the time the film comes out in theaters), so maybe we can revisit this in February/March? We're doing good at this point to stop people from reverting the "also known as 'Shazam'" in the header of the article as it is.--FuriousFreddy (talk) 19:06, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Suggestion How about retitling the article Billy Batson? Seeing as how he now goes by two names, the article could instead relate to the history of his overall character. I've noticed other articles for comic book characters that are named after the person and not their hero identity (e.g. Dick Grayson and Anya Corazon). Maybe the same can be done for him?(Voicebox64 (talk) 02:55, 28 October 2017 (UTC))

Suggestion Change the title when he's been officially called Shazam for more years than he has been Captain Marvel. This is just a phase. 202.92.131.35 (talk) 04:22, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Oppose for reasons stated above. Rreagan007 (talk) 02:07, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Captain Marvel was officially renamed Shazam in either 2011 or 2012, I can't remember, because Marvel held the rights to the Captain Marvel name. Being online, Shazam is being used a whole lot more then DC Captain Marvel. Also, his own feature film called Shazam is coming out next April so I think it is time this page gets a name change. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mystic Moore (talk • contribs) 03:50, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

Captain Marvel should still be credited as such, but Shazam! should definitely be in the page's title. The title should rather be written as 'Captain Marvel (DC Comics)/Shazam!' This character's legacy is to significant to remove the 'Captain Marvel' name due to misconceptions regarding the Marvel Comics character name. Internet Informant (talk) 12:32, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

Internet Informant, "Shazam" should be in the article title. Mystic Moore, this discussion should be reopened as the character is clearly referred to as Shazam by DC Comics: [2] DrRC (talk) 20:43, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

No, because WP:RECENTISM applies. Captain Marvel was the character's name for three quarters of a century and is still used in some comics today. Shazam has only been his name since 2012. JOEBRO64 22:13, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Article title

I see this was discussed last fall, when someone proposed moving the page to "Shazam". Only 6 editors replied and it was basically a "No consensus". But I don't see how this proposal could be opposed when considering wp:commonname. One of the IP users opposed, stating; "this is just a phase", but the article states;

DC has branded and marketed the character using the trademark Shazam! since his 1972 reintroduction. This, in turn, led many to assume that "Shazam" was the character's name. DC later officially renamed the character "Shazam"—and his associates the "Shazam Family"—when relaunching its comic book properties in 2011.

So... a "phase" lasting 46 years and counting apparently. DC themselves went with "Shazam" over "Captain Marvel" because it was the more widely recognized name. Since 2011, Shazam has been both the official name as well as the most common name.

And, as another editor pointed out, there is the upcoming feature film, Shazam!, due out next year that will basically cement the name for good. Then if we also consider that coming out only a month earlier, is the MCU feature film Captain Marvel, there is even more reason to rename this page. The original Fawcett/DC Captain Marvel has some die hard fans, and I get that, but we have to consider this from an editorial/encyclopaedic point of view.

Aside from commonname, there is also WP:NCCOMICS;
Generally, article naming should indicate what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature.
...
In accordance with this, Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names) directs to "use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things", and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (precision) directs that more precise is better.

Based on all of this, This page should be moved to "Shazam" (or "Shazam!"). - ^theWOLFchild 00:17, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

It should, from an editorial standpoint. I agree. --FuriousFreddy (talk) 02:21, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

A strong no. Moving this to "Shazam" would be akin to erasing his history and his "seniority" to the "Captain Marvel" name upfront. The misconception about his true name leading to the "most common" idea of it is not enough - otherwise, Frankenstein's monster should be at Frankenstein. His "officially named Shazam" phase is indeed just a phase right now. DC has not given up the "Captain Marvel" name forever since alternate-universe versions of him using the name have since appeared. Will it be a permanent change for the main version? Maybe, but it's too soon to tell, and we can move him to "Shazam" once he's known by that name longer than he has been "Captain Marvel". Moving it now just reeks of "recentism" to me, and we can't let some movies overrule decades of history. Uthanc (talk) 05:47, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Also, despite the upcoming movie, the character's strongest claims to notability still come from the Fawcett era. That may change after the movie, but this is still before the movie. Argento Surfer (talk) 12:51, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Another strong 'NO' from me. "DC has branded and marketed the character using the trademark 'Shazam!'" in the same sense that the characters Charlie Brown and Snoopy have been branded and marketed using the trademark "Peanuts." Yet Charlie Brown, Snoopy, and Peanuts each have their own Wikipedia article. I know of no one who thinks that Charlie Brown is called "Peanuts," and until 2011, no one who was more than superficially familar with the character called Captain Marvel "Shazam." The argument that he was known as "Shazam" for 46 years is specious. The only people who called him that are those who didn't read the comics or watch the TV show. WaxTadpole (talk) 22:24, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

Oppose. per WP:RECENTISM. Let's see how long this lasts. Anyone else remember the five minutes Alan Scott was called Sentinel? Many more people who know who CM is, know him as CM. Relying on ignorance-recognition is a bit like saying more people "know" the ship on Star Trek is called the "Star Trek" (a Patrick Stewart bit from when he guest hosted SNL, possibly referenced by The Orville naming itself after the its titular spaceship). All that being said, it's too bad Billy Batson is such a radically different persona (character really) from Cap himself, or we could go the route that articles about Hal Jordan or Hank Pym have gone, where the character history has gone through multiple changes of not only name but status. ZarhanFastfire (talk) 04:54, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

• Comment - This move would not "erase the memory" of this character. In fact, the article should have information about the previous name to inform readers (and keep the memory "alive"). But I still don't see how these, or any "oppose" !votes can get around the fact that "Shazam" is what DC now calls this character, or the fact that WP:COMMONNAME clearly applies. - ^theWOLFchild 07:56, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
  • I'm skeptical that commonname applies here, since "a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources" always refer to the character as Captain Marvel first, then mention the legal reasons for the name change. For clarity, I'm talking about historical publications, not a 2017 review of a single issue by some comic news website. Argento Surfer (talk) 12:43, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

You're kidding, right? You don't think commonname applies to "Shazam"? That that character isn't commonly known by that name? Even more so know than "Captain Marvel"? Even DC has recognized this and gone with the name change. And with the massive popularity of Marvel, the MCU and the upcoming Captain Marvel (film), that will even further diminish the link between the name "Captain Marvel" and the DC character now known as "Shazam". Surely a review of current reliable sources would show that the DC character is referred to as "Shazam" far more often than "Captain Marvel"? And I'm talking about a spectrum of current reliable sources, "not a 2017 review of a single issue by some news website" either. I also think it's far more relevant to go by what he is commonly known as now, as opposed to the 1940s. - ^theWOLFchild 23:45, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

I am serious, and don't call me Shirley. The applicable essay is actually WP:NAMECHANGES, not common name, and as I stated previously, scholarly sources that discuss the character always talk about Captain Marvel first. I'd be happy to review these reliable sources you're looking at. Argento Surfer (talk) 13:41, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Support. It's unlikely (read: impossible) that DC will ever refer to the character again as "Captain Marvel". Shazam is his name now, and the article should be moved to reflect that. Whilst I agree with the views of some that most of the character's notable history came from his CM days, that has no bearing on the matter. --Jasca Ducato (talk | contributions) 14:34, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose The character is far more notable for 1940s-1950s appearances, than his relatively few appearances under DC Comics. And the term Shazam (wizard) refers to his mentor. Dimadick (talk) 15:34, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
• Comment - Perhaps I should've posted this question after the films "Captain Marvel" (from Marvel) and "Shazam!" (from DC) come out... - ^theWOLFchild 18:03, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
• Strong oppose per WP:RECENTISM. It may change if Shazam becomes a popular film franchise, but Cap Marvel (under that name) was the biggest comic book star in the world in his day. PS: Shazam is the wizard :-) — Jon C.^ॐ 11:39, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

@Jon C.: This discussion is from July last year; @Thewolfchild:, you stated that intended to request the move after both films came out, they've come out. MacCready (talk) 11:55, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 5 April 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No move. A couple of things are clear here. First, while the name "Shazam" has been associated with the character for decades, it appears that it's only been since 2011-2012 that he was officially named. It's also clear that most sources for the subject, especially those referring to the character's peak of popularity in the 1940s and 50s, will be referring to him as "Captain Marvel". While the character was less known today prior to the movie, this is hardly an obscure subject in the history of comics. Additionally, WP:NAMECHANGES does apply here, but it needs to be taken into account that much of the character's notability was under the name "Captain Marvel". It's unlikely it will be possible to come to a clear resolution about this while the movie is still in theaters. I recommend waiting at least six months before revisiting, and for the next RM to focus on how the character is being referred to in the sources. Cúchullain ^t/c 12:58, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

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(This RM opened without a stated reason. Adding timestamp for proper bot operation. This notice can be replaced by MacReady.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by MacCready (talk • contribs) 12:02, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

Paging @Thewolfchild:

• Oppose Quotting myself from above: "The character is far more notable for 1940s-1950s appearances, than his relatively few appearances under DC Comics. And the term Shazam (wizard) refers to his mentor." Dimadick (talk) 12:10, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
  • Source? - wolf 23:35, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose - The character's biggest claims to notability are from his Captain Marvel years. Argento Surfer (talk) 13:37, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
  • Source? - wolf 23:35, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
    • All of them? Nothing since the 2011 name change has come close to the character's popularity during World War II. His stories were the top selling comics in the country for years by a wide margin. Argento Surfer (talk) 13:27, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose move per above. Let's wait a few more months and see what happens. ONR (talk) 16:24, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
• Comment: the character has been known as "Shazam" for almost 50 years now, so wp:recentism does not apply. However, wp:nccomics, wp:commonnanme and wp:officalname all do apply. He is widely known as "Shazam", has been for years, and since 2011 that has also been his actual name. I realize that some comic fans here are having a hard time letting go, but there is no justifiable reason to oppose this move. That's his name now. Has been for a long time. Y'all need to accept it and move on. - wolf 20:23, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
  • Factually incorrect. Captain Marvel appeared in a comic titled Shazam for 50 years. The character was only renamed in 2011. Argento Surfer (talk) 13:27, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
    • And what about the fact that; DC has branded and marketed the character using the trademark Shazam! since his 1972... what about that? - wolf 20:38, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
    • In addition to that, there are still DC titles that refer to him as Captain Marvel and were published after the name change in 2011, so the old name still has use. JOEBRO64 19:13, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
      • Source? - wolf 20:38, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
        • Off the top of my head, I can remember Grant Morrison's Multiversity series in 2015 called him Captain Marvel. JOEBRO64 23:46, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose HugoHelp (talk) 21:53, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
• Support This character hasn’t been called Captain Marvel in decades and the film doesn’t mention that name either. This character is Shazam, has been for decades and will be for the foreseeable future. Toa Nidhiki05 03:09, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
  • To be fair, he (or whoever had taken on his title) was called "Captain Marvel" right up to 2011. But the name change the following year was meant to be permanent.--FuriousFreddy (talk) 09:32, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
    • Actually, as per the quote above; "DC has branded and marketed the character using the trademark Shazam! since his 1972", is the reason people have, correctly, noted that character has been known as "Shazam" for almost 50 years. - wolf 23:35, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
      • The character in the Shazam comics was called "Captain Marvel". Who is it that you think knew him by "Shazam'? Argento Surfer (talk) 13:27, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
        • It was only casual people who saw the name on the cover and never read the book. Most people who were familiar with the character on a more than superficial level still knew him as "Captain Marvel" through the 2000s. That sentence from the lead of the article is about how this character was marketed, because of the trademark issue, not what his name was. The name change didn't happen until 2012 (there was a scratch run in 2006 that didn't take). --FuriousFreddy (talk) 05:28, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
• Support - The character is far more notable and recognized for the film than anything else. Even if there is more written material about the comic book. An oppose vote is just delaying the inevitable. Nikki Lee 1999 (talk) 03:23, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
• Support per Thewolfchild in the section above. The character is Shazam now, and has been known as Shazam for nearly 50 years. My mom talks of watching "Shazam and Isis" as a kid. Disregard as anecdotal if you will, but it shows that the character has been at least recognizable under that name for a long time. Lizard (talk) 05:14, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
• Support also per the reasonings of wolf and Lizard in their above statments. MacCready (talk) 09:34, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
• Support. That name's not changing back anytime soon, and (as I said before) the release of the movie shifts wp:commonname in favor of "Shazam". --FuriousFreddy (talk) 09:32, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
• Comment - a very long time ago, I created Shazam! (with the exclamation point) as a redirect to this page. My suggestion would be to movie this page directly to Shazam! without the need for the parenthetical. --FuriousFreddy (talk) 09:37, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose - this is incredibly complex and some people above make some good points, but I believe holding this RM in the middle of a hype train related to the recent movie release is in poor judgment and will likely reach a poor outcome. --Netoholic @ 05:45, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose--Sefer azeri (talk) 16:15, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
  • This '!vote' is typical of most, if not all, of the opposes here. Little, if any, reason to oppose, without citing any source or policies. Meanwhile, the move request is supported by both. Can any fans here provide any reason to oppose this move beyond 'I don't like it'...? - wolf 23:35, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
    • Please stop filling this discussion with inaccuracies. No opinion offered in this discussion cites a specific source. Most of the oppose votes are clearly based around Recentism despite not linking it directly. Only your support mentions a policy, not the others. Everyone here is painfully aware of where you stand. Do you expect your badgering to change people's minds? Argento Surfer (talk) 19:20, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
      • Due you think getting bent all out of shape and rage-posting is helping? Relax already... - wolf 19:42, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
        • No rage here, brah Argento Surfer (talk) 20:20, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
          • Stop badgering, dude. - wolf 00:39, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose the proposed title for the reason given by User:FuriousFreddy: the (DC Comics) disambiguation is superfluous. WP:NAMINGCRITERIA says that "The title [should be] no longer than necessary to identify the article's subject and distinguish it from other subjects." Opera hat (talk) 10:45, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose: @Argento Surfer: is right. Plus, we knew the character back when he was called Captain Marvel. --Rtkat3 (talk) 18:16, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose: due to higher notability in the past running by that name contrary to more recent times TheMightyGeneral (talk) 18:46, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
• Support: Per WP:UCRN. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 02:42, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose: the hypeflare caused by current events is the *worst possible time* to consider such a thing. If it goes like most DC movies, in a few years fans won't even remember that there *was* a movie. Let's revisit this question then. 108.202.240.64 (talk) 18:50, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose. WP:RECENTISM definitely applies. The character has been known as "Captain Marvel" for 70+ years (including in the '40s/'50s, at the peak of his notability) and has only (officially) been referred to as "Shazam" since 20112012. The title "Shazam (DC Comics)" also confuses things, since it could refer to another character or the comic book. As an editor noted above, this is like moving Frankenstein's monster to Frankenstein. JOEBRO64 19:19, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
  • Again, "DC has branded and marketed the character using the trademark Shazam! since his 1972"... negates any claims of recentism. - wolf 20:38, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
    • You're taking that out of context. "Shazam" was the name of the comic DC published to avoid trademark disputes with Marvel. It was not the character's name until 2012. Only people who didn't read the comics thought his name was Shazam because of the title, and even then the comics still said "Featuring the Original Captain Marvel" on the cover. JOEBRO64 23:46, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
      • And that raises a crucial point here; WP doesn't tailor its content to those few people "who read the comic", (all of whom have apparently shown up here to 'oppose'), WP is read my a much wider audience and it is them that policies such as WP:COMMONNAME were created for. The character is more widely known as "Shazam", even DC themselves acknowledged that by changing the name, and it has now been virtually cemented as such by the two films released this year; the billion-dollar Captain Marvel from Disney/Marvel, (who own the trademark to "Captain Marvel"), and Shazam!, from Warner/DC, which embraces the new, offical and more widely recognized name. I still don't see how a group of fans can contest this just because "he was known as Capt. Marvel in the 40s and 50s". - wolf 20:41, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
        • See WP:NAMECHANGES. Sources still refer to the character as "Captain Marvel" so we should too. Maybe in 2-3 years there'll be more of a shift and we can move, but right now we should retain the current title. Also saying that only fans oppose the name change isn't assuming good faith, and most people still knew his name was Captain Marvel (hence why the article says "many" and not "most"). JOEBRO64 20:55, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
• Support, per wolf and others. COMMONNAME (a policy) trumps RECENTISM (an essay) in areas where they may disagree. Axem Titanium (talk) 20:50, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

• The applicable policy is WP:NAMECHANGES, not COMMONNAME. Extra weight should be given to sources post-2012, and sources like the Wall Street Journal still identify the character as "Captain Marvel" before getting to the name change, even as recently as last week. Argento Surfer (talk) 12:42, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose Captain Marvel has been, and remains the character's name in several post-2011 publications such as "Thunderworld", "Convergence", and a "Scooby Doo" team up comic. I also think (but not sure) he is still Captain Marvel in the new "Young Justice" cartoons. If anything, the New52 Shazam can be considered a different character, like Jay Garrick and Barry Allen or Alan Scott and Hal Jordan, the difference being the two characters share the civilian name instead of the superhero name. Azariah Marvel (talk) 17:53, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose. It has been the character's name for most of his history and is still an alternate name despite the trademark/branding issues. Rreagan007 (talk) 22:24, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose. He was known as Captain Marvel for over 70 years and sometimes still is. In addition, he also gained fame under that name. Qballer82 (talk) 23:19, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
• Support: It is unlikely that the character will ever be called Captain Marvel again. Dodge Atom (talk) 08:25, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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