Talk:Captain Marvel (DC Comics)/Archive 3

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Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Archive 5

Name change, two (well, four) years later

Latest comment: 8 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

It's rather embarrassing to see the infobox and lead paragraph go back and forth every month or so. It's strongly advisable to pick a format and stick with it. This isn't a fan page. --FuriousFreddy (talk) 18:57, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more. Maybe a Request for Comment should be started. The result of which would determine for good the title of the page and all that but it would also give a specific place to link in edit summaries of edits reverting changes against the established consensus. —DangerousJXD (talk) 21:45, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

We did an RfC two years ago that ended in a non-consensus. Should we try it again? Clearly, in light of Marvel more heavily promoting its own Captain Marvel, this character is going to be officially known as "Shazam" moving forward, but I think the resistance to changing the usage and article title comes from longtime fans who don't like the name change. A consensus would be ideal. --FuriousFreddy (talk) 17:40, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

RfC: Article/character name and usage 2

Latest comment: 7 years ago16 comments12 people in discussion

Consensus for FoCuS's suggestion: "Captain Marvel known as Shazam since 2012". I count 6 out of 10 !votes for that suggestion, which also has the advantage of not being ambiguous as to the present title of the character. In terms of policy, WP:COMMONNAME may perhaps provide some justification for mentioning the better-known, older name first.(non-admin closure) Dionysodorus (talk) 14:24, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

With DC Comics' reintroduction of "Captain Marvel" as part of their "New 52" revamp in 2012, he was officially renamed "Shazam", a name that is used not only in the comics but in the character's subsequent appearances in other media. As a result, for the last four years, the lead and infobox for this article have been in a constant state of flux; I have seen each of the following as the lead sentence - back and forth - over the years:

Captain Marvel, is a fictional superhero who appears in American comic books published by DC Comics.

Captain Marvel, also known as Shazam, is a fictional superhero who appears in American comic books published by DC Comics.

Shazam, also known as Captain Marvel, is a fictional superhero who appears in American comic books published by DC Comics.

The infobox has been in more of a state of flux than the lead - attempts have been made to acknowledge both names - i.e. "Shazam (Captain Marvel)" - in the header, but this again has been constantly edited back and forth, often without attribution. My proposal is that the infobox match whatever the choice for the lead will be, either "Captain Marvel", "Captain Marvel (Shazam)", or "Shazam (Captain Marvel)".

This is mostly the result of longtime fans being upset with the renaming of the character; a situation which doesn't appear to be all that reversible given Marvel Comics' increasing promotion and use of their Captain Marvel (Carol Danvers) in their comics and in an upcoming Marvel Cinematic Universe film. This was the key impetus for the name change in the first place.

This issue may also affect the naming of the article itself - that is, whether or not it needs to be renamed "Shazam (DC Comics)" or "Shazam! (DC Comics)". There also may need to be discussion about to do with Shazam (character), which redirects to Shazam (wizard), the article about the hero's wizard benefactor, as well as (eventually) the articles for Marvel Family, Mary Marvel and Captain Marvel, Jr.. --FuriousFreddy (talk) 23:39, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

Since the name change is very unlikely to be reversed, I think the lead and infobox should be "Shazam, formerly known as Captain Marvel..." Shazam (character) should redirect here, not to the wizard. Unless DC changes the names of the other characters (Mary Shazam?), I don't see how this will affect them. Argento Surfer (talk) 22:31, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

Choice #2 - Not sure where you are basing your assumption on the unlikelihood tha tthe name would remain 'Shazam' ; in the absence of references, I'll presume that you are guessing. I like the second choice:

Captain Marvel, also known as Shazam, is a fictional superhero who appears in American comic books published by DC Comics.

He's been known as Captain Marvel for most of his publishing history, but we need to acknowledge the current name change, until someone beats the living sh!t out of the knuckleheads at DC into changing this back. (Yeah, I am biased about this: change for change's sake is always a stupid idea) I am fairly certain that common sense will win out in the end, and the character will revert once this Final Crisis/Rebirth/New Whatever marketing scheme is replaced with something approaching actual stories. Until then, we reflect both names. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 04:49, 9 June 2016 (UTC)

This isn't "change for change's sake"... The character was officially renamed to match the title of his book. My assumption is based on an understanding of the reasons for the change. Argento Surfer (talk) 14:21, 9 June 2016 (UTC)

With respect, this is simple marketing hubbub, like Superman's costume changes and whatnot. To reiterate, the character is known primarily (both historically and within the common names for the character) as Captain Marvel, and almost insignificantly so as 'Shazam'. Both names (with accompanying DAB) should be listed. The primary article should be for 'Captain Marvel', not 'Shazam'. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 18:58, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

Second Choice - My reasoning is as follows: wikipedia is not (or should not be) about "now" so much as it is about important things from a timeless perspective, as much as this is possible. From a timeless perspective, this character has been known as Captain Marvel for the vast majority of its existence, and more importantly, for the most popular portion of its existence. WP:COMMONNAME would thus require us to keep the page name as Captain Marvel, and then we can state in the opening sentence that the IP owners of the character have decided to change the name going forward. If, and only if, the character becomes more recognizable under the new name than the old name, AND this popularity is weighed comparatively against the popularity the character during the rest of its career, then I'd be okay with changing the name. But even today, people still say "Captain Marvel" despite lack of official support, and historically, the character's name is Captain Marvel. Most of the article is dedicated to the historical Captain Marvel, too. That can't be ignored. Fieari (talk) 06:48, 9 June 2016 (UTC)
- Addendum: I also like, and prefer, "Captain Marvel, known as Shazam since 2012…" (or "known since 2012", the order doesn't matter to me) Fieari (talk) 23:29, 14 June 2016 (UTC)
Something along the lines of Captain Marvel, know as Shazam since 2012 seems prudent for the lede. The article should then expand on this issue. FoCuS contribs; talk to me! 12:39, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
"Captain Marvel, known since 2012 as Shazam…" works for me too. — Jon C.^ॐ 14:18, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
Captain Marvel known as Shazam since 2012 - Summoned by bot. This alternative is more descriptive yet still concise. Meatsgains (talk) 02:39, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

I like that, too. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 03:23, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

Captain Marvel, known as Shazam since 2012. Bot sent me. Agree with others, descriptive and concise. SW3 5DL (talk) 22:46, 22 June 2016 (UTC)
Shazam, also known as Captain Marvel - The Captain Marvel trademark is currently owned by Marvel Comics, not DC. The name of the article should reflect this name change done by the publisher. DC Comics wasn't always the official name of the company, yet the article is not titled Detective Comics Inc. (DC Comics). If it were any other article about a company, movie, book, IP, etc., the name of the article would be changed but the original name would be referenced in the article itself. DrkBlueXG (talk) 20:36, 27 June 2016 (UTC)
Shazam, also known as Captain Marvel - Referring to the guy as "Captain Marvel" first and foremost is misleading, given that he hasn't been named as such since 2011. Also, there is currently a rather popular Captain Marvel who has recently been headlining The Avengers and is going to be appearing in her own self-titled feature film (which I don't believe we have an article about yet.) Caitlyn Jenner didn't recieve as much resistance on Wikipedia against her name change as it seems this innocuous comic-book character has. EmmiaSilk (talk) 03:13, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
Option 2. There are good reasons for choosing either options 2 or 3, but I lean toward the historical relevance of his classic name. It consensus is to change the styling to "Shazam, also known as Captain Marvel", that's alright with me, but it puts a lot of emphasis on recent events, even though they may be important. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 09:30, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Wisdom Of Solomon

Latest comment: 7 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion

Captain Marvel is supposed to have the "wisdom of Solomon". As the Wikipedia article says, that would grant him access to vast scholarly knowledge, including almost all known human languages and sciences, making him probably one of the smartest characters in the DC Universe. Nevertheless, modern-age DC writers insist on having CM think and act like a dumb 12-year-old kid. That's really preposterous. Captain Marvel and Billy Batson should remain two separate personalities, as they were in the original Fawcett comics from the golden age. 200.168.20.173 (talk) 13:47, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Solomon was not that wise. He suggested splitting a baby in half. Even Billy Batson would not think of that! 70.225.176.178 (talk)eric ferguson

Read the text. He only said that to see the two women's reactions and judge accordingly:

1 Kings 3:16-28
(Bible Gateway), Contemporary English Version (CEV)

Solomon Makes a Difficult Decision

16 One day two women came to King Solomon, 17 and one of them said:

Your Majesty, this woman and I live in the same house. Not long ago my baby was born at home, 18 and three days later her baby was born. Nobody else was there with us.

19 One night while we were all asleep, she rolled over on her baby, and he died. 20 Then while I was still asleep, she got up and took my son out of my bed. She put him in her bed, then she put her dead baby next to me.

21 In the morning when I got up to feed my son, I saw that he was dead. But when I looked at him in the light, I knew he wasn’t my son.

22 “No!” the other woman shouted. “He was your son. My baby is alive!”
“The dead baby is yours,” the first woman yelled. “Mine is alive!”

They argued back and forth in front of Solomon, 23 until finally he said, “Both of you say this live baby is yours. 24 Someone bring me a sword.”

A sword was brought, and Solomon ordered, 25 “Cut the baby in half! That way each of you can have part of him.”

26 “Please don’t kill my son,” the baby’s mother screamed. “Your Majesty, I love him very much, but give him to her. Just don’t kill him.”

The other woman shouted, “Go ahead and cut him in half. Then neither of us will have the baby.”

27 Solomon said, “Don’t kill the baby.” Then he pointed to the first woman, “She is his real mother. Give the baby to her.”

28 Everyone in Israel was amazed when they heard how Solomon had made his decision. They realized that God had given him wisdom to judge fairly.

--Thnidu (talk) 20:19, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

THE SMOKING GUN

In the FAWCETT COMPANION a former Fawcett Publishing "big wig" revealed that one of their "ghost" artists had taken a Superman story (which they may or may not have worked on) and just put Captain Marvel in place of the Man of Steel. Rather than risk losing potentially millions of dollars, Fawcett just decided to settle the lawsuit. Since the Captain Marvel comics were their best sellers (even with the decline of comics in the early 50s) they just decided to get out of the comic book business and stick with their other non-comics related magazines. Leave a message if you need the exact name of that "big wig".MARK VENTURE (talk) 20:41, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

External links modified

Latest comment: 7 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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Mysterious stranger

Latest comment: 7 years ago2 comments1 person in discussion

~~In § The Power of Shazam!, ¶2 contains this sentence (reformatted for analysis):~~

For example, in this version of the origin,
it is Black Adam (in his non-powered form of Theo Adam) who killed Billy Batson's parents,

and the "mysterious stranger" who leads Billy to the subway tunnel with statues of the Sins,

and the wizard Shazam is revealed to be the ghost of his father.

What is part 2 saying? As it stands, it's incomplete. If Black Adam is the "mysterious stranger", it needs a connection to part 1, such as

~~who killed Billy Batson's parents, and who is the "mysterious stranger" who leads Billy...~~

or

~~who killed Billy Batson's parents, and who, as the "mysterious stranger", leads Billy...~~

Or, if #1 and #2 are unconnected, perhaps it should read:

~~and it is the "mysterious stranger" who leads Billy to the subway tunnel with statues of the Sins,~~

Thnidu (talk) 20:01, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

On rereading the sentence I see how I misparsed it. I've rewritten it to eliminate the confusing grammar.

For example, in this version of the origin, Black Adam (in his non-powered form of Theo Adam) was the killer of Billy Batson's parents; and the "mysterious stranger", who leads Billy to the subway tunnel and to the wizard Shazam, is revealed to be the ghost of his father.

The punctuation may be rather awkward, but there's no "who" to confuse the issue. --Thnidu (talk) 23:45, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 24 December 2016

Latest comment: 7 years ago7 comments7 people in discussion

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: NOT MOVED. (non-admin closure) KSFT ^C 16:12, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

Captain Marvel (DC Comics) → Captain Marvel (Shazam) – With the character originally referred as Captain Marvel and most recently Shazam after DC Comics' The New 52 relaunch, might as well renaming it as Captain Marvel (Shazam). NeoBatfreak (talk) 07:45, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

Oppose Parenthetical disambiguation should give a broader subject, not a narrower one. "DC Comics" makes if fairly clear that this Captain Marvel is a comic book character; even if you don't know the publisher, "comic" is right in the name. On the other hand, "Shazam" is rather obscure (itself an acronym) and likely not known by many who are unfamiliar with comics. Reidgreg (talk) 13:44, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
Oppose move. This is a fairly weird case, because the character is most associated with a work known as "Shazam", but DC characters tend to use "(DC Comics)" for disambiguation, and I see no reason to break that guideline. ONR (talk) 04:50, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
Support The character did not originate in DC Comics, but in Fawcett Comics, uses Shazam as his catchphrase for more than 70 years, and also turns up in non-comics media. See Adventures of Captain Marvel, Superman/Shazam!: The Return of Black Adam, Shazam! (TV series), and The Kid Super Power Hour with Shazam!. DC Comics has acquired a number of characters from other publishers, that does not mean we have to mark all of them as DC-related. Dimadick (talk) 15:44, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
Oppose Most readers will associate the character with the publisher of the past 44 years, not one that is 63 years out of date.* Captain Marvel (Shazam) already redirects here, and Shazam is a DAB pagdisambiguation e whose is first section is "In the Captain Marvel comic book franchise".
* Fawcett ceased publishing Captain Marvel-related comics in 1953... In 1972, DC licensed the Marvel Family characters from Fawcett, and returned them to publication. By 1991, DC had acquired all rights to the characters. DC has since integrated Captain Marvel and the Marvel Family into their DC Universe... --Thnidu (talk) 23:07, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

Oppose. A bizarre request IMO (although I note one suppport !vote but it seems no more logical). There may even be a case for renaming this article to Captain Marvel and renaming the DAB, but to rename this article to a non-standard disambiguator... no case at all. If it must be disambiguated, this is the right format, similar to Captain Marvel (Marvel Comics) and similar. Andrewa (talk) 08:24, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.