Talk:Brother, Can You Spare a Dime?

Lyrics copyvio

If the song was written in 1931, it is still under US copyright. The lyrics have been removed. — BrianSmithson 09:15, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Would it be more convenient to link to these lyrics instead? -Mardus 11:08, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Movie appearances

Does anyone know of what movies the song may have been featured in? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.129.51.145 (talk) 11:19, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Subsequent Verse

I recall seeing or hearing Yip Harburg do a contemporary verse he wrote on television or radio. I believe it was TV, because I remember seeing him singing it, but my memory has fooled me about this sort of thing before. It must have been shortly before his death. The verse went something like this:

Once we had depression
(something on the order of: No one had a dime)
But we still had hope.
Now we've got recession, war, and crime,
Brother, can you spare a rope?

A bit depressing, but it may still merit a mention in the article if someone can nail it down. 68.47.5.219 (talk) 15:08, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Formatting. —Nils von Barth (nbarth) (talk) 21:59, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks so much for sharing!

I did some digging (based on your quote), and found references; I’ve added the verse in this revision, and it apparently goes:

Once we had a Roosevelt
Praise the Lord!
Life had meaning and hope.
Now we're stuck with Nixon, Agnew, Ford,
Brother, can you spare a rope?

…and was apparently a 1970s version, requested by the New York Times. It’s possible that he had other versions (for example, rhyming dime/crime as you indicate), though I couldn’t find any

—Nils von Barth (nbarth) (talk) 21:59, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

I can nail it down. This is from memory, but I think it's accurate. Published in, I think, 1978, in the Sunday Times magazine.

Once we had Depression, but with a dime A man wasn't out of luck. Now we've got inflation, drugs and crime - Brother, can you spare a buck? Once we rode on subways, lived in shacks, But our souls were our own. Now we've got our co-ops, Cadillacs - Banker, can you spare a loan? Once in helmet hats we cheered Uncle Sam, Belted the kids who hated to kill. Half a trillion bucks were dropped on Vietnam, I'm the joe paying the bill! Once we had a Roosevelt, praise the Lord, Life had meaning and hope. Now we're stuck with Nixon, Agnew, Ford - Brother, can you spare a rope? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FEA8:7E0:12A6:9125:9A1:A2E9:578A (talk) 19:33, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

SCHUBERT THEATER

According to the PBS special "Broadway: The American Musical" the Schubert Theater was the first place this song was performed publicly. Does this belong in the article? --2600:100F:B102:8B70:0:12:C960:7101 (talk) 07:11, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Source of music?

It would be interesting to cite the lullaby whose music inspired Gorney, if known. Pol098 (talk) 20:51, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

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GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Brother, Can You Spare a Dime?/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: MarioSoulTruthFan (talk · contribs) 13:24, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Infobox

• Written: 1930 → should also be in the body of the article, along with a source in the aforementioned section
  • Removed, not verifiable
• Genre: Traditional pop → same as previous
  • Removed
• Lenght?
  • There is no canonical track, so no fixed length.
• Audio Sample: WP:Sample, unless the song is over 5 minutes, no 30 seconds
  • I do not know how to do this, so I just removed it.

 Done

Lead

• Written by lyricist Yip Harburg and composer Jay Gorney → not mentioned in the body of the article
  • Fixed
• it is largely in a minor key → composed largely in a minor key
  • done

 Done

Background

• The Great Depression in the United States, started by → The Great Depression in the United States, which started with
• By 1932 → In 1932
• The tune → Brother, Can You Spare a Dime?
  • At this point, it wasn't called that.

It doesn't sound encyclopedic, perhaps "the piece"? MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 00:18, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Changed to "melody". buidhe 00:57, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

• After his appliance business went bankrupt, → after this the first sentence should be writen as if it weren't for it Harburg wouldn't have gone to the music business.
  • Reordered (I think that's what you were suggesting?)
• One paragraph
  • It would be too long, and deals with two separate topics.

 Done

Summary

• Re-title the section for "Composition and lyrical interpretation"
• In the second paragraph is always "the song, song and more song". Replace sometimes with "the track" or even with the title of the song "Brother, Can You Spare a Dime?", for example: "Brother, Can You Spare a Dime?" has an unusual structure for a Broadway song.
  • It's not a track as there is no single canonical version. Done some.

Understood. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 00:20, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

the song jumps → "Brother, Can You Spare a Dime?" jumps → change this one as well.

I think this could cause confusion, as the title is also part of the lyrics. Changed to "the melody jumps."

 Done

Performance history

• Re-title "Live performances"
  • includes recordings.

How about "Musical and cover versions"? MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 00:35, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

• This section should be before the "Parody" one
  • It would be confusing to discuss the reception to the musical without explaining the musical first.

Right. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 00:35, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

• Angered by...→ move it to the reception portion

 Done

Reception

• Re-title perhaps to "Reception and Legacy"
• Theater Arts Monthly's → redlink
  • Redlinks encourage article creation.

Fine. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 00:40, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

• "On the Sunny Side of the Street", "Life Is Just a Bowl of Cherries", and "Happy Days Are Here Again" → year of release of the songs between brackets
• Michael Lasser write that → Michael Lasser wrote that
• According to Meyerson and Harburg, the challenge that Harburg → this gets cofusing
• They write that he → The latter

 Done

Parody

• Fine

References

• The Kennedy Center, NPR → publisher
  • these refereces are accurate as they are
    • Why? MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 14:41, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
      • OK, done. buidhe 17:58, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
• Reference 13 has no author, title...only work and date + The New York Times should be wikilinked

 Done

External links

• Should mention the university, year of publication, full title
  • Added year. Title is obvious, I don't see how the university hosting it is relevant to include.

All the other references have it, why should this one be an exception? All external links have their publisher, why should this one be an exception? MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 00:36, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

The university did not publish it. I added the print publisher but it is a redlink so I do not know how helpful it is.

In the same way the other redlinks are. You have a redirect at Paramount Pictures. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 15:51, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

 Done

Overall

• You can now address the issues, on hold for seven days. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 15:26, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

@Buidhe: only missing one thing. Moreover, are you going to add those new sources? MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 12:43, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

I will add them after you pass it. Many reviewers don't like it when the nominator adds additional sources during the review. buidhe 17:58, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Add them now, I would rather review them before I pass the article, there would be no need to add more information right after a GA review. Let me know once you do it. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 19:46, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

 Done buidhe 20:19, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

@Buidhe: I made minor changes to the article, see if you are ok with those and let me know. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 10:53, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

I have no objection. buidhe 19:10, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

More sources

Parking here for reference: buidhe 04:54, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

References

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by The Squirrel Conspiracy (talk) 02:51, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that business leaders tried to ban the Depression anthem "Brother, Can You Spare a Dime?" for being "a dangerous attack on the American economic system"? Source: https://www.kennedy-center.org/education/resources-for-educators/classroom-resources/media-and-interactives/media/music/story-behind-the-song/the-story-behind-the-song/brother-can-you-spare-a-dime/
  • ALT1:... that "Brother, Can You Spare a Dime?" was described as "the entire history of the Depression in a single phrase"? Source: https://www.npr.org/2008/11/15/96654742/a-depression-era-anthem-for-our-times

• Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Jewish Legion

Improved to Good Article status by Buidhe (talk). Self-nominated at 19:41, 28 May 2020 (UTC).

Neither of the quotes in the two hooks are cited in the article. Gatoclass (talk) 13:01, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

• I ignored this comment because I am not sure what it is trying to say. Both quotes are cited correctly and the article passed GA review. (t · c) buidhe 02:14, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Article:

New/Expanded? — Long enough? — Neutral? — Cited correctly? — Free from copyvios/plagiarism?

Hook:

Concise? — Interesting? — Accurate? — Neutral?

(If nominee has > 5 DYKs)

Reviewed another article?

(What this means)

— Good to go. ALT0 preferred. ~~ CAPTAIN MEDUSA^talk 16:54, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Unexplained removal of content, back in May 2020

On 21 May 2020, User:Buidhe made a series of 23 edits to this page, making pretty dramatic changes to the overall content. I'm not qualified to judge the quality and accuracy of most of them, but want to assume good faith, even though all the edit descriptions are blank, or nearly so. One, though, bothers me, as a card-carrying member of the AIW. The edit time-stamped 08:00, 21 May 2020, among other rewrites, removed the "Other Recordings" section, with no comment or explanation. I'd be more than happy to put it back. Posting here first, in case someone wants to tell me there was a good reason to delete that information. I note in passing that Buidhe self-identifies as a Wikipedia exclusionist. Larry Doolittle (talk) 06:48, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

Hi Larry, especially since this is a Good Article it's important that all content is verifiable and pertinent. WP:SONGCOVER explains when it's relevant to mention covers of a song. Just appearing on a track listing is not enough, the cover version must have gained some independent coverage to be considered relevant. (t · c) buidhe 14:53, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

Hi Buidhe, I understand this is an instance of the conflict betwen exclusionism and inclusionism. Let me ignore the general case and try to convince you that this specific cross-reference list is relevant and encyclopedic. For those following along at home, the "covers" involved here come from

• The Dave Brubeck Quartet (L)
• The Weavers
• Peter, Paul & Mary (L)
• The Youngbloods
• Spanky and Our Gang (L)
• Judy Collins (L)
• Ronnie Lane
• Abbey Lincoln
• Les Deux Love Orchestra
• George Michael (L)
• Walker Edmiston

In five of these eleven cases (marked with a (L) above), the album with that rendition of this composition is notable enough to have its own Wikipedia article, which then links here in its track listing. I guess you could argue that the list in this article is redundant, in that a user could use the "What links here" feature to find those albums. That approach sounds like it would flunk modern UX guidance.

Every one of the eleven entries comes with both a Wikipedia link (or two or four) and a citation. I do see there is guidance against cover lists in general, but even that has exceptions for recordings that are notable "in their own right". I'm not familiar with each of these eleven recordings, but given the song (and its popularity and social importance) it doesn't sound difficult to find documentation of such notability -- especially since we're only trying to justify a single line in an existing article. I -- and a dozen of my friends -- could take on that project if some of the existing links are deemed insufficient.

This list isn't prose, and we shouldn't attempt to convert it into prose. If there's another obvious wikimedia project where it would fit better, let me know, and then this article could link there. Failing that, let's just put it here. Your writing argues (correctly, IMHO) for the lasting importance of this music; this list gives quantitative reinforcement to that argument. Larry Doolittle (talk) 07:25, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

If documentation should be easy to find, then given that there's WP:NODEADLINE, why not find the documentation and then re-create the list? DonIago (talk) 21:26, 14 October 2021 (UTC)