Talk:Brewing/Archive 3

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Brewing diagram

I think that the picture diagramming the brewing process is pretty useless. It doesn't reflect actual brewing techniques, it just represents each step with a polygon and a line, and is thus, it's hardly informative. I recommend changing this picture to reflect actual brewing techniques. August 13, 2013 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.103.129.231 (talk) 18:10, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for your input. It is helpful to get the views of readers of the article. I feel the diagram is a useful visual aid supporting the text. It is more useful to have it than not to have it, so I'm unclear on why you would consider it "pretty useless". Such diagrams are very common in brewing texts books, and in brewery buildings themselves, to inform people of the steps in the brewing process - see here for some examples. I'm unclear as to what sort of image you would find that would be an improvement on what is fairly standard usage. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 01:42, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Brewing/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

The complete lack of sources prevents the article from advancing beyond the "B" state. Gentgeen 23:40, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Substituted at 20:12, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

Brewing process

The sentence: The temperature change is gradual so as not to disturb or damage the enzymes in the grain. is not correct in my opinion. The heating to a sufficient temperature is needed to reduce the number of microorganisms in the malt and allow for repeatable fermenation. Most if not all the enzymes (or their activity) will be destroyed by these temperatures. Slow rise of temperature is most probably done for two reasons: One is the prevention of explosive release of water which may occur if the water vapour cannot escape fast enough. The other is related to enzymes as temperature rise for the degradation of starch will increase with temperature. For this temperatures are risen slowly to allow time at suitable temperatures for the different enzymes and reactions. This is similar to proteases in washing machines, where the heating process is also slowed to allow the breakdown of proteins in laundry. Unfortunately, I have no source for this at hand. Can anyone help out, or, alternatively, teach me the wrongness of my ways? LGreiner (talk) 11:00, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for that. I have rephrased the statement and found a source for temperature increasing. If I find a source which indicates why the temperature is increased gradually I will rephrase again. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 11:30, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Broken Reference - 43

"Ale University – Brewing Process" . Merchant du Vin,. 2009. Retrieved 12 November 2009. Page was removed, not sure if it matters.

--Hugo14453 (talk) 17:49, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for noting that. When a webpage link gets broken it is often possible to fix it by copying the link address, going to the Wayback Machine, and pasting it in. The Wayback Machine - also known as the Internet Archive, can be found at http://archive.org/web/. I usually simply replace the old link with the Wayback link (as I have done here), though some like to use the special archive-url field on the cite web template. And if an article is being considered for Featured Article, there are some reviewers who will insist that the archive-url field is used. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 23:37, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

Graph of Brewing Process

Hallo, I am a student attending a course of Communication Design at the University. I would like to submit to you my graph about the Brewing Process, let me know if is possible to insert it in this page. Thank you very much. --Piero Barbieri (talk) 20:29, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Hi. You may upload your graph to Wikipedia:Wikimedia Commons. You may use the image upload assistant which guides you through the process, or use the direct upload page if you are familiar with uploading to Commons. Once the graph is on Commons it can be used in this and other articles as appropriate. If it is felt that the graph is not helpful in any article it may be removed from that article, though it will remain on Commons. I hope that helps - if you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to ask. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 08:57, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Graph of Brewing Process

Hi, the graph that I am uploading is this:

Brewing-process-graph

--Piero Barbieri (talk) 12:30, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

It is an attractive, professional looking graph; however, I'm not sure if you've looked at this article, we already have a graph that explains the brewing process, and does so with links to relevant articles. I'm not seeing an advantage to the reader in replacing the current interactive graph with the new one. It looks prettier, but is less helpful. I think if there were a way of introducing graphics and colour into the present graph, that would be great! Keep well. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 18:31, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

I actually think this new graphic is much better than the current one, which looks like it was designed on MS Paint. The newer one better shows the actual process flow (full disclosure, I'm a professional brewer). I do like the linked portions of the current chart, but it poorly illustrates the process, and most of the objects it represents are too abstract. If Piero is still interested, I'd like to work with him on a better chart for this page. - superβεεcat  23:35, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Image "Modern closed fermentation vessels" does not show those

The image "Modern closed fermentation vessels" shows bright beer tanks (for filtered pressurized beer for packaging or serving. Fermenters have a cone at the bottom and are know as ZKG (Zylidrokonisches Gärgefäß), CCF/CCV (Cylindro Conical Fermenter / Vessel) or Unitanks... 47.151.154.112 (talk) 09:43, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for that. Nobody had noticed previously, and I think you're right. The image is tagged as "Modern fermenting tanks", and is used as such on 26 articles on various Wikis. See File:Samadams2.jpg. I'll update those articles shortly. Thanks again. SilkTork (talk) 16:17, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

Obscurely written

I was referred to this article from Wheat beer, which lead describes it as "top-fermented", linking to this article's "Fermentation methods" section. There is nothing in this section that explains in concise language what the !#$%%^ "top-fermentation" is. There is much technical and convoluted language. I did learn that it refers to yeast type, but after an initial reading, I'm not sure what the difference is. This is bad writing in action. Can someone who both knows the information, and can convey it to ordinary citizens in clear language please remedy this? Please again?! It is refreshing that the article is rated C-class: that's intellectual honesty. Regards Tapered (talk) 00:38, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

I think you're right, the language is rather technical. I think this is because the sources tend to be technical, and those who are interested in brewing tend to think in terms of the chemical process, and so those who have added to this article over the years have been home brewers interested in understanding and explaining the chemistry behind brewing. I will look into how we can simplify the language. In the meantime, to put it simply, "top fermentation" is an older way of describing the warm fermentation method of brewing. It is a misleading description, because very few breweries collect the yeast from the top of the fermenting vessels because these days most fermenting vessels are not open at the top. However it is a term still used, and while modern books on the subject will be using the term "warm fermentation", older books and texts will still be using the term "top fermentation". Warm fermentation is as it says, a warm method of brewing. The wort (the liquid that will turn into beer) is kept at a warm temperature while the yeast ferment (turn the wort into beer in the same way that yeast turns dough into bread). Because the temperature is warm, the yeast work quickly, introducing a number of flavours, some of these flavours are less welcome than others, so the brewer has to keep a more careful eye on it than when fermenting at a cooler temperature, where things proceed more slowly and safely, and fewer flavours (including off flavours) are produced. As a rough rule of thumb, the beers that people tend to call "ale" are warm fermented, while the beers that people call lager are cool fermented. But a number of "ales" are made using cool fermentation these days, because it is a more reliable method. It is more time-consuming and costly than making ale, but there is less to go wrong, and so there is less risk. SilkTork (talk) 01:35, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the info! Does this mean that White beers are warm fermented? Or at least in Germany? Tapered (talk) 21:57, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

The beers that are termed "white beers" are traditionally warm fermented, though there is a tendency for some modern brewers to move toward cooler fermenting because, as I indicate above, it is a more stable and reliable method of brewing, which also enables the beer to stay fresher for longer, so is a more cost effective method of brewing. If when you drink your wheat/white beer and it has a fruity and/or bubblegum flavour, and it's reasonably sweet, then it will have been warm fermented. If it tastes more neutral, cleaner, dryer, and possibly quite refreshing if a tad watery, then a cooler fermentation was used. Clean, neutral and refreshing is actually quite popular. So for brewers, using cooler fermentation is not only a cost-effective and safer way of brewing, it is also more profitable. Lager is the most popular beer in the world. Lager is cool fermented, and is clean, neutral and refreshing. SilkTork (talk) 00:30, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Carbonation of beer not explicitly explained

Apart from krausening and bottle conditioing, the whats and hows and whens of force carbonation (in BB tanks or in-line) of beer are not covered too well

Brewer's spent grain (BSG)

Evaluation of byproduct section: - could have WAY more information (working on a separate page for brewer's spent grain to respond to all these points) - material could be organized into sections - presentation is understandable - does not cover comprehensively - sourcing is good, but more sources would be great - article does have references - no introduction, doesn't have sections - lots of key info missing - coverage does seem unbiased - I appreciate the image - facts are not emphasized - sources seem reliable, but more published scientific work would be good — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ee204909 (talk • contribs) 13:15, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

I have created a new, separate page for brewer's spent grain, because I feel there is enough information on BSG that it deserves its own Wikipedia page with its own categories, etc. I am unable to link to it in the byproduct section, because I am unauthorized to edit the brewing page. Here is a link to what I have written: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brewer%27s_spent_grain_(BSG). Please link to this in the byproduct section, thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ee204909 (talk • contribs) 14:11, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 March 2020

In the Fermentation Methods section, the citation seems odd as exact paragraphs can be found in Fermentation Technology by Ray Medina piblished in 2019. Can you please check this? 14.192.213.215 (talk) 13:51, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Plenty of (unreliable) sources directly copy from Wikipedia, this paragraph was already in place in the 2018 version of this article. – Thjarkur (talk) 15:26, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Which paragraphs are the same as those in Fermentation Technology? I have spent several years building up that section (the information goes back seven years or more) and used something like 30 different sources to support that material. SilkTork (talk) 20:55, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Merger proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

No consensus to merge. SilkTork (talk) 18:29, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

---

Proposing to merge Beer brewing equipment here as there is little material there and it makes best sense in this larger context. Mccapra (talk) 18:27, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

I think you're right, though I also think there is scope for having an article on brewing equipment. The article is quite new, and perhaps could be given time to develop so we can see its potential before making the decision on merging. My concern is that I'm not sure there are dedicated texts on brewing equipment separate from brewing, so perhaps this article is the best place to explore brewing equipment, and maybe a separate section pulling together the major pieces of equipment might be sufficient. But I can also see the potential in Brewing equipment for detailing the history and development of brewing equipment including the thermometer and hydrometer. And there would be more room to explain and describe in detail a Brew kettle or copper, a Whirlpool, a Hopback, the different types of fermentation and conditioning vessels, bottling, etc.

On consideration I feel that a period of at least six months, and perhaps a year, should be given to allow the opportunity for Brewing equipment to be developed. There are sources. The topic is viable and potentially very interesting. Oppose. SilkTork (talk) 23:01, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

Comment - I am undecided on whether Beer brewing equipment is notable enough for its own article. But saying it should have a year to develop seems like a kick-the-can argument to me, and it gives nobody an incentive. Perhaps the folks who are active at the longstanding Brewing article here can be challenged to chip in. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (TALK|CONTRIBS) 16:59, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

"Perhaps the folks who are active at the longstanding Brewing article here..." That's me!  ;-) SilkTork (talk) 17:24, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

As regards "kick-the-can", I understand what you are saying; though, Brewing equipment has just been created, and - as we say - there is WP:NO DEADLINE and we shouldn't be in a rush to delete or merge. When looking at a new article, we consider its potential, not its current state. As I say above, after considering it for a while, and looking at reliable sources, I can see the potential for a useful article. The amount that can be written about brewing equipment would be too much for this article, so having a sub-article does make sense. It just needs time to be developed. As regards notability - a Google search for "brewing equipment" shows there's plenty of detailed, in depth coverage in reliable sources. Notability is not an issue. The issue is the current state of the article. Do we redirect the term to this article because it's currently a stub with little information and hope that someone (me?) will get around to researching enough information on brewing equipment to undo the redirect, or do we leave the article as it is with people visiting it and starting to add to it. I can say that, for me, I am much more likely to add little bits of information about brewing equipment to an already existing article than I am to one that has been redirected here, when I still haven't finished working on this one, and the priority on this one is to tidy up and cite those sections which I have marked as needing attention, without adding in information that this article doesn't strictly need. SilkTork (talk) 17:48, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Semi-protected edit request on 16 July 2022

In this sentence:

There are three main fermentation methods, warm, cool and spontaneous.

Please replace the first comma with a colon. 49.198.51.54 (talk) 20:59, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Done. CraigP459 (talk) 23:10, 16 July 2022 (UTC)