Talk:Brandon Teena/Archive 7

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The internet

I remember the occasion well, particularly the use of the internet because of the shortcomings of the Sheriff's department, when hundreds of people on chat lines around the world combined to deluge the authorities with e-mails. It was an important first demonstration of the power of the internet. Is there no literature on the subject which can be cited in this article? 86.155.33.134 (talk) 09:31, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Brandon Teena

It states on his page, "Teena claimed to be intersex several times, with this later being proven to be false." However, it does not state how this was proven false. Perhaps whoever submitted this comment could elaborate. It is not medically proven false by looking at the exterior of a patient's body. There are numerous variations of a person being intersexed. For two examples out of several types of testing that could've been done: What were the results of a chromosome test as well as that of any mutated chromosomes if any mutated chromosomes were present? Did he have an androgen wash while he was a fetus in his mother's womb? Hmmm? So, if the statement was never seriously clinically proven then it would most likely be best to remove at least part of the statement made on the Wikipedia page created for him. In other words, maybe it can be said: "Teena claimed to be intersexed several times." Then leave off the rest of the statement. If there isn't any knowledge of medical testing other than a visual examination then the rest of that statement is very mistaken.

{Another concerned person for Brandon's memory} —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.74.224.35 (talk) 19:21, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

From memory, no 'abnormalities' were detected in autopsy. I was only a young person at the time though, so this may or may not be accurate. - Fellow Concerned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.167.154.48 (talk) 03:21, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Mfinch13, 5 July 2011

I'm requesting an edit to change Teena's pronouns back to male ones, to be consistent with his self-identification, and therefore with the Wikipedia Manual of Style (MOS:IDENTITY). Is there any way that users who change his pronouns to female ones can be blocked from editing the page in the future? --Mfinch13 (talk) 03:26, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Mfinch13 (talk) 03:26, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Done I undid the recent revisions that had changed it to she/her. Unless a user violates a policy, ie WP:3RR or WP:VANDAL they will most likely not be blocked just because they changed the article to she/her. Jnorton7558 (talk) 03:37, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Greenefloripa, 13 July 2011

Due respect to Brandon, and thus necessarily to his self-defined identity, requires use of the male pronoun in the text of Wikipedia. This is the least respect we can show for him, his memory, and his significant ohers. As to reliable sources supporting this ethic, see Eve Sedgwick, Michael Warner, Judith Butler, and others. As a professor and researcher of Queer Studies, I find the neglect to use the male pronoun in such disrespectful references to Brandon Teena in Wikipedia to be a major topic for a discussion of normatively sanctioned cultural recalcitrance -- even on a page written by people who are acquainted with the issues involved in his struggle! Greenefloripa (talk) 06:21, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Greenefloripa (talk) 06:21, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

The text already does use the male pronoun for him. This was fixed by the previous edit request. Unless you notice some specific places? Jnorton7558 (talk) 07:07, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

However, an encyclopaedia should be concerned with neutral reporting, not with "respect" or "disrespect" to anybody. 86.159.192.146 (talk) 23:43, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Him and his?

Those words are extremely misleading. 184.96.243.120 (talk) 04:34, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

He, him and his are the correct gender pronouns for this article. See MOS:IDENTITY. Happydemic (talk) 13:53, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't want to comment on the MOS:Identity policy as such but since it is considered applicable, it would be very helpful for this article to simply make reference to that policy right up top, just to aid readers. eg "Brandon Teena had female physical characteristics, but self-identified as a male. In accordance with Wikipedia's MOS:Identity policy, the pronoun 'he' is used throughout this article to reflect that self-identification." I can't see why anyone would have a problem with some explanatory information like that up top, and I can tell you as a reader of the article that it would have helped me understand the article. I understand there are some political issues surrounding the choice of pronoun and that is all to the good, but it needs to be admitted that the general reader may need some introductory guidance. - Anthroipoidape — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.237.99.12 (talk) 00:57, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

The first 7 words of the article (not including the DOB/D) are already "Brandon Teena . . . was an American trans man". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.146.58.181 (talk) 20:57, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, the article opens by referring to the subject as a "trans man". To me, this does not solve the problem that the article is extremely confusing to those seeking information - admittedly, it's probably not confusing to people who already know the information anyway, and who seem to have an aversion to making the article clear to readers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.237.99.12 (talk) 03:08, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

It's interesting that the only real conversation that happens on this talk page is the he/she question. See what happens when you try an end run around common sense? And yes, it's not confusing to those who have their mind right. To everyone else however, it's downright absurd. – JBarta (talk) 15:24, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately for all sane people, society is amazingly transphobic/binarist. --Stealthy (talk) 11:43, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

To: 220.237.99.12 If you're seeking "clarity" on what it means to be a transsexual or a trans man then you are able to click "tran man" and it'll bring you to a page explaining it. It's not a confusing matter. The only ones confused are those who don't know how pronouns work, I'm sure they're able to read up on pronouns with regard to transgender people on that respective page. That's how encyclopaedia's work. Each article doesn't need a distillation on more complicated topics, readers are able to look up those more complicated topics to better their understanding. Celynn (talk) 05:55, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

What gender was this person ?

Maybe the story is familiar to Americans, but to others, like me, who know nothing of this story whatsoever (I followed the link via the page for comedian Norm MacDonald) have no idea what gender 'Brandon Teena' or 'Teena Brandon' was ? And consequently the article is really, really confusing as to what the motives of his/her killers was. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.30.197.161 (User ) 07:12, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Brandon Teena identified as male, as the article makes clear.

The article begins by stating that Brandon Teena was a trans man. (Follow the link to read more: "A trans man, transman, trans guy, or FTM is a transgender or transsexual man: a person who was assigned female at birth, but who identifies as male.') The section discussing the murder is also pretty clear. It states 'Nissen and Lotter grabbed Teena and forced him to remove his pants, proving to Tisdel that Teena was anatomically female.' They then raped him. A few days later, Nissen and Lotter murdered Brandon Teena. The section does not go into detail about the murderers' motivations, but the clear implication is that Brandon Teena was murdered because he was anatomically female but identified and lived as a man. Male pronouns are used in the article, in line with MOS:IDENTITY.

Perhaps you are confused about how someone's gender identity can be different from their assigned sex. But the Brandon Teena page is not the right place to explain this - hence the link to the trans man page.

If you have any specific suggestions for improving the page (provided they keep to MOS:IDENTITY), then please do put down an edit request. Happydemic (talk) 14:57, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

So what are you saying? If someone 80 years identifies themself as 5 years old you must change the birthdate accordingly? If someone that is a caucasian identifies as asian you must identify them as asian? That's bollocks, nonsense and an utter lie... Assigned gender is true gender because it exists before its assigned by anyone, like age and ethnicity and even nationality. A coroner never asks the corpse what the corpse believed, the coroner only checks the truth told by the corpse itself and such things that are found by the coroner as age, ethnicity and gender should be the same in both legal documents and biographies about the person at hand for practical reasons of understanding the truth of the person, we don't go around classifying schizophreniacs and otherkin by the characters or species they believe themselves to be... Do we? One thing is being tolerant of homosexuality, another thing is encouraging deception, and transexuality is a form of deception. Undead Herle King (talk) 08:53, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Your opinion and weak example(s) don't matter in this instance (or in any other real situation I suspect). MOS:IDENTITY explains why the pronoun "he" is used in this particular article. In short, Wikipedia chooses to respect the gender the subject identifies/ed as - not what you want or what you think is right. If the usage really bothers you that much, substitute the pronouns "she" and "he" while you are reading this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.72.176.240 (talk) 02:51, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

I can't believe you actually bothered to respond to that bigot at all. I applaud your well thought out reply. Celynn (talk) 06:00, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Plus one. I also can't believe you actually bothered to respond to that bigot at all, and I also applaud your well-thought-out reply. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.20.42.114 (User ) 22:27, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Hey, you self-satisfying self-righteous LGBTQ crusaders, thanks for insulting passers-by. Now instead of using ad hominem arguments to invalidate commenters' criticism, try to act like you know what Wikipedia is about : respecting guidelines, not hoisting the rainbow flag of vague moral values to decide who's a closed-minded asshole and doesn't deserve to be taken seriously. "Weak examples" really? Screw your weak definition of weakness. The one and only answer that should have been given to the people who protested the use of the pronoun "he" is : "MOS:IDENTITY makes authority. Discuss it on its own page if you disagree." Bigots.--Kirochi AKA 89.158.104.26 (User ) 23:44, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

The only thing you should be complaining about is that I used this talk page for something other than discussing the article. I regret breaking wiki policy by using this page to criticise a poster rather than simply pointing out their mistake. However, I do stand by what I said on a personal level. If people are so offended by being called out for what they are then perhaps they ought not to state personal (and offensive) comments in public. Those who discriminate and disrespect others life-styles are, per the definition, bigots. I "hoisted" no "rainbow flag."

Those given examples were actually quite weak and illogical. Somebody who identifies as a 5 year old (despite being 80) is not entitled to being referred to as a 5 year old. More than likely they have a mental illness; however, transgender identities are far more complicated than that dismissive logic allows. Any time spent researching "transgender" issues, or simply reading the wiki article, would help enlighten any poster. However, some people choose not to do research before writing ignorant things. Their mind is usually set on "how things should be" and they'll allow nothing to change it. That, by the way, is also part of the definition of bigotry. I used it correctly when referring to the original poster; you did not.

Calling me out for critcising others, rather than citing wiki policy, and then proceeding to criticise and insult me (while using inflammatory language) is rather hypocritical of you. Perhaps you should have made your post on our talk pages (as your own advice recommended). Perhaps if you weren't of like mind with the OP you wouldn't have been so quick to anger. It's sad to see that someone who's so clearly into wiki policy could be so close minded. Celynn (talk) 19:53, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 14 April 2012

The person in this article is continually referred to as he/him. This is not factually correct. Please do let political agendas take the place of reality in Wikipedia. A person can claim and identify as a penguin, they are not a penguin. 173.28.159.196 (talk) 21:21, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

N Not done and not likely to be done See Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Identity, which was already linked in abbreviated format above. By community concensus, stated preferences in this regard are followed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dru of Id (talk • contribs) 21:57, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Readability

I'm probably repeating what other people have already said in vain, but this article is difficult to follow. I didn't click the link to Trans man, so was unaware of Teena's sex at birth or self determined gender identity. People should not be expected to follow a link to another article to understand something that can be easily explained in this article. Without this knowledge, the first paragraph of the "life" section reads as if Teena was born biologically male, implies that Teena's mother gave her son a female name, and becomes very confusing when he is referred to as a tomboy and daughter. I would suggest that this be resolved simply by changing the first sentence of the "life" section to something along the lines of "Teena was born Teena Renae Brandon, biologically female, in Lincoln, Nebraska, the younger of two children to Patrick and JoAnn Brandon, but showed signs of male self identification from an early age" the precise terms that I've used can be replaced with other unambiguous PC terms if needed. Will Bradshaw (talk) 08:47, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

That's correct, you are repeating previous qualms, ones that have already been answered. The opening sentence in the lead says "Brandon Teena (December 12, 1972 – December 31, 1993) was an American trans man who was raped and murdered in Humboldt, Nebraska." Trans man means "male who was asigned 'female' at birth" i.e. born biologically female but self-identifies as male. This descriptor can be used for female to male transsexuals.

The proper word was used and it's definition, if you don't know it automatically (no one is born with knowledge afterall), can be easily obtained by clicking the the word "trans man". There is no reason to describe what a "trans man" is on every single transgender page on this wikipedia. This site is written like an encyclopaedia article. If you're reading up on transgender issues (which Brandon Teena certainly qualifies as) then you should learn the terms. You can only do that by visiting the other pages which hold them. This page isn't about trans men, it's about the life of Brandon Teena. Saying he's a trans man is enough.

Without proper knowledge you won't understand this article. That's not a bad thing. Without proper knowledge (and visiting multiple wiki pages) you won't understand the wiki page about Black Holes either. I know this sounds like a straw man but bear with me, this analogy has a point: wiki articles do not distill everything on a single page, otherwise they would become far too wordy (much like this response). If another page explains a word and the concepts around that word then you do not need to explain it on the any subsequent page you use it on.

Please don't take this response negatively. I know it sounds a bit condescending. It wasn't meant to. Celynn (talk) 20:30, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

What I suggested isn't too wordy at all. WP:BTW states "Do not unnecessarily make a reader chase links: if a highly technical term can be simply explained with a very few words, do so [sic]". 'Trans man' may not be a highly technical term, but it is a technical term that can be easily explained within the article, which will make the article much more coherent to someone new to the subject. Will Bradshaw (talk) 22:05, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

By your own admission "trans man" is not a highly technical term. It is a word defined by the context in which it's used (see: "Teena was born Teena Renae Brandon... [he] began identifying as male during adolescence and dated a female student during this period. His mother rejected his male identity and continued referring to him as her "daughter".") and defined immediately in the lead sentence on the page "trans man" if you click the link. Later on, the article also mentions Teen's anatomically female status.

Brandon Teena is not a name that is normally dis-associated from LGBT issues. By looking at any transgender page you should have the answer to the question "what is a trans man?" It seems most people (uninitiated in transgender issues) that complain about the confusing nature of this article are thrown off by the use of male pronouns throughout and at the beginning (which is inline with MOS:IDENTITY). This article is not meant as a starting point to transgender education just as Black Holes is not meant as a starting point for Astronomy.

For these reasons, I strongly disagree with the proposed changes because they are unnecessary. This is a transgender page, Teena is described as a trans man in the lead, and the article makes note of Teena's birth name (at his birth) and anatomically female status (during his rape). A similar question was asked last year and a similar response was given.

Your proposed addition is not wordy, true, but it is redundant. It is not necessary to constantly remind the reader that Brandon Teena was born biologically female (a fact that would be stated three times in the opening sentence plus first paragraph of the article). If you would like to propose a change to the lead that would kill redundancy and add clarity to the issue then I'm willing to compromise. Celynn (talk) 01:50, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

"Trans man" isn't defined by its context, it may be defined by the article as a whole but a reader should not be expected to read the whole article to understand a simple term, especially one used in the lead. They should also not be expected to follow a link (WP:BTW), regardless of the complexity of the term.

The article on black holes has several sections that describe certain areas briefly but each has a link to other articles that expand on that particular subject. Enough information is given to make the article at least somewhat coherent without requiring other articles to be read. Without the knowledge that Teena was biologically female, this article does not make sense, it should not be the responsibility of the reader to make it make sense.

How about defining "trans man" within the lead? "Brandon Teena (December 12, 1972 – December 31, 1993) was an American trans man, a person born biologically female who self identifies as male, who was raped and murdered in Humboldt, Nebraska." (Although repetition of "who" sounds a bit wrong.) Will Bradshaw (talk) 17:17, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

I've been thinking about trying to reword the lead to remove trans man and replace it with a simplified definition while still linking to the wiki article on trans men. I think your suggestion does make sense, clearly enough people are stumbling over the wording in this article to make it an issue. RE: Readability, I'm going to change the lead to read "Brandon Teena (December 12, 1972 – December 31, 1993) was an American trans man, a female to male transgender person, who was raped and murdered in Humboldt, Nebraska."

I'd much rather get rid of "transman" and simply write "Brandon Teena (December 12, 1972 – December 31, 1993) was an American female to male transgender person who was raped and murdered in Humboldt, Nebraska" in order to get rid of repetition but I believe it will sound rather offensive to list "female" as the starting label on a trans man's article. Celynn (talk) 13:52, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

I can see why someone might consider that inappropriate. I'm not particularly fussed by the repetition but if it's annoying you, get rid of it and let someone complain about it at a later date. Having it the way it is now does make it more informative though. Will Bradshaw (talk) 18:14, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Edit request from Electrcguy, 12 December 2010

{{edit semi-protected}} All times Teena Brandon is referred to as "he" should be changed to "she" as she was born female and continued her life as biologically female, having no sexual reassignment surgery or hormone therapy. There is no basis for the deliberate misrepresentation of gender for this article.

Electrcguy (talk) 04:06, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Not done: Please see MOS:IDENTITY which states that a person should be referred as the gender they currently identify as. Stickee (talk) 09:17, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

What a load of bullshit, can I self-identify as African-American even though I was born white? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.47.137.167 (talk) 04:08, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

There is no misrepresentation of gender in the article, unless you subscribe to the belief that physical characteristics determine gender, which is incredibly inaccurate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.167.154.48 (talk) 03:17, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

"There is no misrepresentation of gender in the article, unless you subscribe to the belief that physical characteristics determine gender, which is incredibly inaccurate." Really? Lord what a load of horseshit! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.181.68.33 (talk) 13:06, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Have you no idea what website you're on? Go up to that little search bar and type in "transgender". It'll tell you all about that so-called 'horse shit' and explain why your ignorant opinion is really just small minded bigotry. Celynn (talk) 06:03, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

You say it is "horseshit" so it must be! So eloquent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.72.176.240 (talk) 02:52, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

The use of the word "him" in this article is foolishness because it causes confusion and is not factual. A person can think they're a goat but that doesn't make them a goat. For instance, if you write that Fred was a goat and the article is read a thousand years from now, what will people think, it's mythology? It is important to know from the beginning that this person was a woman because that fact speaks to the complexity of their life and psychological concept of reality. Pretending she was a man writes reality from her perspective and doesn't do justice to the real story of her life. I decided to add this comment because a college student asked me about the story, which I recall from news articles, and I looked up the wiki to refresh my memory. I thought she was a woman but then read "he" repeatedly and then doubted my memory. There's no reason for it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.176.28.172 (talk) 08:55, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Brandon Teena was quite certainly a male. The article explains that he was CAFAB (coercively assigned female at birth), and the effects that this had on his life, but his CAFAB status didn't change the fact that he was a guy. Also-he was a rampant homophobe. Calling him a lesbian is kind of contradictory to this, though if he happened to have been a CAMAB homophobic straight guy instead of a CAFAB one, I may have supported it ;) But he was a guy. He was more of one than me-though as a CAFAB transmasculine genderpunk neutrois, I do get considered a guy quite often! --Stealthy (talk) 11:41, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

I don't think there is a misrepresentation of Gender, as Brandon was clearly masculine. However, there is a misrepresentation of Sex, she was a female. The words he and she are based upon sex (anatomically determined) and not based on gender (characteristics that a society or culture delineates as masculine or feminine). I think the reader will be confused by the story of a person if the words he and she are used in the context currently used. I think the use of she and hers throughout the articl is done only to make a social statement. This only adds confusion to the facts. Wikipedia should represents facts and not opinion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.255.230.52 (talk) 13:11, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Definitively settling the issue of pronoun

The lunacy of "He was raped vaginally", "A standard rape kit was used and samples were taken from his vagina" go to show how idiotic it is that fools continue to vandalize this page with the improper pronoun and ironically report others for vandalism who understand English.

If you insist upon going against centuries of the English language and millennia of medical knowledge, please cite reliable, well respected established medical sources that state that vaginas on a human body constitute the male sex. Harvard Medical, the Mayo Clinic, Cedars Sinai, John Hopkins, Surgeon General. Just one out of those that say a person born with an indisputable vagina, menstruates and can become pregnant is a he. Eric12 (talk) 18:52, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Like I stated on your talk page, we go by MOS:IDENTITY regarding this. As for "going against centuries of the English language and millennia of medical knowledge," I suggest that you read the Transgender article, the Causes of transsexualism article, especially the biological aspects of one or both of those articles, and the Intersex article.

You also need to remember to always sign your user name. You have been a part of this site since 2006, and should know this by now. I signed your user name for you above, but you need to do it yourself from now on. At the end of your comments, you should simply type four tildes (~), like this: ~~~~. Flyer22 (talk) 20:44, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Specifically regarding the two lines above that you take issue with, if WP:CONSENSUS is formed to use "Teena" for those instances, that would be acceptable...since we use "Teena" as his surname. Flyer22 (talk) 20:59, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

The issue is the English language. Cite Webster's, Merriam, the Oxford English Department, a real authority on English pronouns or as stated before - or a universally recognizable medical authority that states your case that a person with an indisputable vagina, who menstruates and can become pregnant is a he. Citing a lobby group who wishes to change centuries of very fundamental English language use does not mean that they have succeeded. Cold, hard facts please.

This is an encyclopedia, not a pamphlet from a wishful thinking interest group. Eric12 (talk) 23:33, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

The MoS is very clear about this. There is no point in continuing this discussion. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 23:38, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Indeed. As to the claim that this usage makes Wikipedia into an interest group, Eric12, you may wish to try that argument on the Associated Press, whose style guide pretty much parallel's Wikipedia's Manual of Style on this matter. --j⚛e decker^talk 01:13, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

About 90% of this talk page is in relation to this female being referred to as a male throughout the article. I agree with those who say it is confusing, because it is. The basic response that I see throughout this talk page to the issue, is to see MOS:IDENTITY or that it is required to say that she was a he. As all WP editor's know, consensus is how article's are written and those editor's who have contributed the most to an article are always quick to defend their preferred version and discourage new editor's with a fresh eye from making any changes to the article. This seems to be the case with this article here. As most editor's know, there is generally a limited number of editors likely to participate in any given discussion, so what happens is an influx of biased or partisan editors are likely to generate an improper illusion of a consensus where none (or a different one) would exist in a wider population. Disputes over content in an article are rarely resolved by the merit of one's argument, but rather by the individuals who dominate the discussion and declare that there is a consensus. Having said that, the reality is that this article will remain confusing to most readers, and they will turn to alternate sources that are not influenced by partisan editor's.-- Isaidnoway (talk) 07:16, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

People in favor of calling Brandon Teena a "female," a "she", "her" or "woman" can be argued as biased as well. Anyone who prefers a certain wording is biased toward that particular wording. I'd never edited this article or commented on its talk page until my attention was brought to Eric12's repeated violation of MOS:IDENTITY. My concern was the violation of that guideline. Yes, Wikipedia often goes by WP:CONSENSUS, but established policies and/or guidelines are not usually discarded simply because a group of editors at a talk page decided "We want to ignore all rules." If a group of editors wanted an article to completely violate the WP:Manual of Style, for example, that would not work whatsoever because every Wikipedia article defers to it in some way (meaning that it is widely deferred to by most Wikipedia editors). MOS:IDENTITY is a part of the WP:Manual of Style, and, if being transgender were more of a common factor, it'd be followed almost or just as widely as other WP:Manual of Style guidelines because there would be more Wikipedia articles about transgender people. I understand that people often have a difficult time distinguishing between "sex" and "gender," especially since terms like "male" and "man" are used interchangeably. But while "sex" and "gender" can mean the same thing, they of course don't always mean the same thing. "Sex," as in the state of being male or female, is more of a biological topic, while gender is more of a social topic, as in gender identity, gender roles and social roles (see this the World Health Organization source noting the distinction, even though, as I've mentioned elsewhere, it is strict because it only talks about humans, ignores gender identity, and ignores the fact that "gender" has expanded to include "sex" and that the terms are sometimes validly used interchangeably). In other words, while Brandon Teena was genetically female (although there is also the possibility that Brandon's brain might have been genetically male in some respects), he identified as a man; his gender identity was male/man.

No matter how you define consensus, WP:CONSENSUS at this talk page is that Brandon Teena should be referred to in this article by male pronouns. As I mentioned above, there is also the option of referring to him as "Teena" at more parts in the article; Teena is already used in the article as his surname and is only mentioned as his birth name in the Life section and in the infobox. The two lines Eric12 mentioned as problematic (above) are not in the article, though, and weren't at the time he made that comment (they may have never been in the article at all; he was likely paraphrasing). If there is anything else that can be done to take away readers' confusion without violating MOS:IDENTITY, I'm open to it. I'll ask editors from Wikipedia:WikiProject LGBT studies to weigh in on this. If you feel that wider views are needed on this matter, you can always start a WP:RfC about it. Flyer22 (talk) 00:56, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

While there are certainly grey areas with respect to the application MOS:IDENTITY--I have participated in a few discussions where the claim that an individual was transgendered was based on highly unreliable sources, for example, this is not such a case. I don't believe there's any specific doubt about his preferred pronoun choice. Folks who'd like to see MOS:IDENTITY changed are encouraged to begin an RfC on the topic. --j⚛e decker^talk 01:16, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Flyer's right. MOS is clear, consensus is clear, Roma locuta est, resistance is futile. The horse is deader than dead can be, and ain't never gonna come back to life. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 01:21, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Also... At Chaz Bono, all pronouns were once excluded in a way that they weren't needed, and, when they were needed, "Bono" was used instead. That's no longer the case for that article, however. And, from what I see, given the type of text involved, it would be more difficult not to refer to Brandon Teena by male pronouns. Flyer22 (talk) 01:20, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Mother's opinion

I moved this from the article Boys Don't Cry: She also said that her child's transgenderism was a defense mechanism that was developed in response to childhood sexual abuse, rather than being an expression of Teena's gendered sense of self: "She pretended she was a man so no other man could touch her."

It was reverted and the reason given is: Mother is not a reliable sources for reasons for gender indentification. As this is a biography article and not a medical article, I don't think that reason holds weight. Zaalbar (talk) 18:50, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Doesn't matter. ANY material added to ANY article has to be reliably sourced, and the mother is not a reliable source for the causes of her child's sexual identity by any stretch of the imagination. Her opinion is completely irrelevant. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 18:54, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

You're wrong on all counts. The material is reliably sourced as an opinion. Opinions do not need to be reliably sourced as truth. Her opinion is very relevant to this article. Zaalbar (talk) 18:58, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Nope. EVERYTHING needs to be reliably sourced, without exception. Especially a statement about a third party. Nothing you've said even resembles what our policies say. Read them. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 22:11, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

I have read them. My previous comment is completely correct. I'm re-adding it. Zaalbar (talk) 18:55, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Your argument is invalid because it conflicts with our policies, which clearly state that ANY medical claim in ANY article must be relaibly sourced. See WP:MEDRS. The mother's statement is a medical diagnosis, which she is indisputably unqualifed to give. Her statement carries zero weight per WP:NPOV. If you have a problem with that, take it to WP:RSN. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 19:16, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Already have. Zaalbar (talk) 19:17, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 137#Can this be included on Brandon Teena? Insomesia (talk) 21:10, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Time line is a bit weird

There seems to be something possibly weird about the time line. In checking our sources to make sure we were quoting them right, I found out we weren't although it only offers minimal help to the problem.

Anyway I made these corrections [1]. The chasingthefrog source doesn't say he attended counselling sessions in 1991 with his mother. It says:

JoAnn Brandon, Teena's mother, was upset that the filmmakers failed to explain that for several years when Teena was a young girl, Teena had been sexually molested by a man. JoAnn said that Teena sought counseling in 1991, and began to dress in men's clothing and date women as a defense strategy.

In other words, it only mentions Teena seeking counselling. I'm also uncertain whether he was seeking counselling for the rape, as our article implies, or just generally, but I've left our current wording for now.

The Playboy source is more complicated, but our wording there was quite confusing. It seemed to imply the rape was revealed while Teena was at the centre. The source says he was release after 3 days (as our article says), but this happened before he started attended the counselling (well I presume there was counselling at the centre but that's not what was being referred to). The counselling was I guess for his "sexual identity crisis" and/or other alleged problems. Our article also seems to imply his mother always attended when the source seems to suggest his mother and sister sometimes but not always attended. It's not clear how long these sessions went on for, but at some stage while his mother and sister (who was also a victim) he revealed he'd been raped. After this, according to his mother, he shut down even more. It's a bit unclear to me if the two weeks is from the beginning of the sessions or after the rape revelation. In any case, I've tried to make the article neutral on the ending. Also I've tried to minimise mention of the mothers view and stick to the facts, given that she rejects that her Teena identified as a man. One odd thing, our article claimed these sesssions were four times a week but I don't see any mention of that in the source.

Anyway if you haven't noticed, the time line is a little odd here. One the one hand, we have the claim he attended counselling in 1991. On the other hand, it's claimed he attended counselling, sometimes with his mother and sister, where he revealed the rape in 1992.

Now that I've fixed the claim of him attending counselling with his mother for the rape in 1991 (only to then reveal the rape in 1992), it's not definitely contradictory. It's possible he did attend counselling in 1991 before the revelation to his mother and he informed his mother of this at some stage (may be even the mother was involved in organising these but he never told her about the rape). And as I said, I'm not even sure that the alleged 1991 counselling was for the rape (or at least that he told the counsellor/s of it). OTOT, particularly since the chasingthefrog source doesn't seem a great source, I wonder if the 1991 is just wrong and it's referring to the same 1992 counselling.

Nil Einne (talk) 21:04, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

MOS:Identity redux

Wow, this article is a headache to read. I disagree with the MOS:Identity consensus view and its application, but particularly in this article. The juxtaposition of the subjects name, and the unfortunate coincidence of his original birth surname being a traditional male name makes the use of any gender based pronouns unwise. We should trim the he's and she's with respect to the subject out altogether. Though I wouldn't object to using gender based honorific (Mr. Teena) as that would make reading the article easier to comprehend.   little green rosetta(talk)
central scrutinizer  03:53, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

You want to use "Teena" throughout the article, in place of gender pronouns applied to Brandon? Like I stated above, I have experience with editors avoiding gender pronouns regarding the Chaz Bono article; it now uses male pronouns again, however. Using a name in place of spots where gender pronouns should be reads just as awkwardly as some think referring to Brandon by male pronouns reads.

I don't have much of anything else to state on this subject, though, other than what I've already stated about it. If consensus changes on this matter, then so be it. Flyer22 (talk) 04:11, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

The Bono article doesn't have the ambiguity issues this article does. Ridiculous as MOS:Identity is, and in conjunction with the feminine sounding surname and male name we do the reader no favors by using gendered pronouns for this BLP subject.  little green rosetta(talk)
central scrutinizer  04:59, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

This is not "BLP subject".--В и к и T 14:31, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

As I just randomly popped into this article, and am not transgendered, I found it to be confusing as hell. I don't really care what gender this person *is* (I was looking at the discrimination), but there's such a mish-mash of gender pronouns, confusing terms (I thought trans-male meant a woman who was born with male genitalia, not the other way 'round), etc. The combination of classical names which are usually exclusively male / female doesn't help either. Just my two cents, I agree with the OP on this being confusing, but don't really have a good idea of how it should be fixed. SlipperyDongDumpster (talk) 08:33, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

(1) Transgender is not a verb. (2) No, trans man means they were assigned female at birth but now identity as a man. (3) Masculine pronouns are used throughout. (4) I think WP:SURNAME is what's confusing you here. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 18:00, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

Gender

Why does the article use the male pronoun? Brandon Teena was a woman with a severe mental illness, or rather illnesses. One of which was her wanting to be a man. She was a woman. If someone believes they are a teapot, or a cat, we don't call them a kitchen utensil or a feline - we recognize that this is still a person, with a serious delusion. Brandon was a deluded female, not a man.Royalcourtier (talk) 07:33, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

See MOS:IDENTITY and the previous talk page discussions about this. Do you have reliable sources to support that the subject had "severe mental illness"? If not, such personal speculation doesn't belong anywhere on Wikipedia.- MrX 11:57, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

I am not sure what constitutes personal speculation, when it is in fact based on material from the very same article. However the article currently includes the following, to quote: "Teena underwent a psychiatric evaluation, which concluded that Teena was suffering from a severe "sexual identity crisis"...later taken to the Lancaster County Crisis Center to ensure that he was not suicidal. He was released from the center three days later and began attending therapy sessions, sometimes accompanied by his mother or sister....The counselling sessions ended two weeks later".

"Gender dysphori", or "gender identity disorder", is a recognized mental illness. The American Psychiatric Association permits a diagnosis of gender dysphoria if the criteria in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSMMD)(5th Edition, 2013) is met. The Wikipedia article states that Teena's crisis/disorder was severe, therefore I believe that there is evidence that Teena did have a serious mental illness - and therefore that my statement is not mere speculation. I also note that the DSMMD expressly records that where a persons gender at birth is contrary to the one they identify with they will be diagnosed with gender dysphoria. In other words if a man identifies as a woman he is diagnosed with gender dysphoria. This is not the same as being a hermaphrodite or someone who has undergone sex change surgery - a woman who has become a man. It is a man (or woman) who identifies with the opposite sex. Therefore Teena should be described by the female pronoun, not the male. I accept that I will probably be blocked from editing Wikipedia for stating this. I do withdraw my earlier reference to Brandon as deluded, that I accept was unnecessarily colloquial and offensive.Royalcourtier (talk) 04:42, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

Your lack of understanding of this stuff is dangerously stupid and you should seriously not be allowed with that kind of nonsense on any trans subject. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.56.208.54 (talk) 17:29, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Whether it's a mental illness or not is irrelevant. MOS:IDENTITY says " In such cases, Wikipedia favors self-designation, even when usage by reliable sources indicates otherwise." ― Padenton|✉   05:08, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

Film based on documentary film or book?

This Wiki entry claims in the intro that the film "Boys Don't Cry" is based on the documentary film "The Brandon Teena Story," while the Wiki entry for the film "Boys Don't Cry" claims the director was inspired by reading the Aphrodite Jones book "All She Wanted." Both may be correct, but there is an apparent contradiction that warrants checking the source of the claim in this entry (the "Brandon Teena" Wiki entry). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cincybones (talk • contribs) 15:47, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

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Gender Identity

This is not a forum to discuss your personal views on the topic of transgenderness. EvergreenFir (talk) 19:20, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The notion that a person chooses his / her gender is ridiculous. While deviations do occur in nature (a hermaphrodite, for instance, has both genitalia), in the vast majority of cases, you are either born male or you are born female. A male claiming to be a female, or vice versa, is indicative of a psychological disorder. Scientifically, one's gender is dictated by the genitalia they possess, not by the whims of the person, and no amount of wishful thinking will change this. I was amused that the beginning of the edit section on this article outlined justifications for referring to this woman as a man and warning against calling her a female. Frankly, I am not the least bit surprised at this. As an ex-editor for this pseudo-encyclopedia, I discovered long ago that Wikipedia is nothing if not a propaganda machine for Left Wing lunacy. It's really quite sad... 97.90.26.71 (talk) 13:22, 24 February 2018 (UTC) No, gender is not just a matter of what type of genitals happened to be hanging between your thighs the moment you were born. The brain also possesses an innate sense of what gender of body it's supposed to be living in — and this is dictated by prenatal hormones, not by any evidence of psychological disorders. While most of us are lucky enough to have our brain gender match our genital sex, it is entirely possible for a person to end up with a female brain inside a somatically male body or vice versa — and furthermore, it is also entirely possible for prenatal hormones to result in the masculinization of a body that is chromosomally XX, or the feminization of a body that is chromosomally XY, and it is impossible for you, as an outside observer, to know whether anybody has that mismatch between their DNA and their genitals or not except by assuming that a person's chromosomes automatically align with their gender presentation. For instance, there's a real condition known as androgen insensitivity syndrome, in which a fetus that is chromosomally XY/male is incapable of actually absorbing the androgens to develop in a male way, and thus develops and is born as a girl and grows up into an entirely normal-looking woman who you couldn't pick out as "abnormal" if you tried. So sure, it's easy to say that penis always equates to XY which always equates to male, and vagina always equates to XX which always equates to female, if you have a really simplistic understanding of gender — but in reality, the science of gender is a lot more complicated than you think it is, and there are a lot of ways in which a person's gender can fail to correctly align with their genitals or their chromosomes, just as there are lots of ways in which a baby can be born with an abnormal number of arms, legs, fingers or toes, or with all of their internal organs on the opposite side of their body from where they're normally supposed to be, or as intersex. Fetal development is such a long process, with so many opportunities to go "wrong" and produce quirky results, that literally almost anything you can possibly imagine (and some things you can't) is possible. Bearcat (talk) 19:13, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

Possible factual error

The article states that when Tisdel bailed Brandon she then continued dating him. Tisdel herself has refuted this and in fact sued the company that made Boys Don't Cry for falsely representing her as dating Brandon after she knew he was transgender. Difficult to know where the truth lies. Aldiboront (talk) 07:02, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

Edit request: minor typo

There is a minor typo on this article. Within the subheading "Life," first paragraph, last sentence: "On several occasions Teena claimed to be intersex though this assertion was later dispoved."

Semi-protected edit request on 11 November 2017

I would like to change the tagline "American Actress" that appears in the google preview of the page to "American Actor". WikiFranklin (talk) 18:23, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

Not done: This is an issue with Google Knowledge Graph, not Wikipedia. I've submitted an error report to Google, which you can do too by clicking the "feedback" at the bottom of the preview and clicking on the "film actress" Cannolis (talk) 18:50, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

Lies on top of lies

Teena Brandon, aka "Brandon Teena," was not a "trans man." They didn't exist back then. There were only transsexuals and transvestites, and she was neither one. You don't get to engage in presentism in order to help the trans movement and lie about her. She didn't "identify" as a man. This despite the recent vile article in the Village Voice by somebody who had written about her shortly after she was murdered in 1993. That author was trying to appease the trans crowd, facts and Brandon's own feelings be damned. Brandon was a butch lesbian who was murdered in a hate crime. This entire article needs to be rewritten because it is TRASH. It is inaccurate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.58.53.133 (talk) 19:23, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

The words that we use to describe transgender people have certainly changed since 1993 — but you're absolutely dead wrong to claim that transgender people didn't exist back then. As far back as recorded history goes, there have always been people who went to whatever social, legal, political and/or medical lengths were possible in their time to live as the opposite gender — this isn't a new thing that just suddenly emerged out of nowhere in the 2010s, but a thing that has always existed and we're just more aware of it now than we used to be. And I also fail to see what was "vile" about the Village Voice article — you're dead wrong to presume that you know better than Brandon Teena's own words on the matter of Brandon Teena's gender identity than Brandon Teena did. Bubbye. Bearcat (talk) 23:09, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

Brief review

I think this article is a very interesting. It explains a innocent life being taken but, there are certain things I believe should be cleared up and explained more. I suggest adding in what age did the rape begin and more details explaining why the counseling session ended so quickly. Another suggestion I would make is, in 1993, tell us more about the illegal trouble before moving Falls City. Grammatical errors should be fixed such as, trans man should be changed to trans women. "Paternal grandfather" and "maternal grandmother" is kind of a oxymoron. If it was already explained that she was their care giver for certain period of time. Another thing is, where it says "During a Christmas Eve party, Nissen and Lotter grabbed Teena and forced him to remove his pants" how he forced to pull down his pants by just grabbing him? The last thing I feel would make the article better is more sources should be added under the "Life" portion of the article instead of using source 10 multiple times. Cbrown98 (talk) 21:17, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

• Hmm, this is indeed very brief. If you want to know some of those facts, try looking at the sources (10 and 12) to see what's there. But most of all, this review should have been longer and more comprehensive. Dr Aaij (talk) 21:19, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
• Why should "trans man" be changed to "trans women"? First of all Teena identified as a man, and secondly the shift from singular to plural is...odd. Dr Aaij (talk) 14:27, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
• The statement does not say that the mere act of grabbing him forced him to pull his pants down. It says that they grabbed him and [also] forced him to pull his pants down. --Equivamp - talk 14:30, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
• You clearly have the labels backward if you think that referring to Brandon as a trans man is a grammatical error: a person who was assigned female at birth, but then transitions to a male gender identity, is a trans man, while a trans woman is a person who went the other way. A transgender person is a trans target-gender, not a trans birth-gender. Also, paternal grandfather and maternal grandmother are not "oxymorons": remember that while they may not all be relevant to the story and may not even all be alive at all, from a genetic standpoint people have two grandfathers and two grandmothers, not just one. You had a paternal grandfather (your father's father) and a maternal grandfather (your mother's father), and a maternal grandmother (your mother's mother) and a paternal grandmother (your father's mother). So specifying that a grandparent is paternal or maternal is not redundant: just like everybody else, Brandon Teena had two grandfathers and two grandmothers, and paternal vs. maternal is the standard way of distinguishing which grandparent one is actually talking about. Bearcat (talk) 13:19, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

Full name

An IP editor has just edited the article replacing all instances of "Teena" with "Brandon Teena". While this is something that would normally be reverted per the manual of style, which states that after the first mention the subject of a biography should be referred to by their last name, I do see the IP's point here. In a sense, "Teena" is Brandon Teena's deadname as it was the first name he was given as an infant, and although it was his last name when he died, it seems reasonable to me to use his full name in the article. I'm not a regular at this article and am not familiar with all previous discussions – I have looked at the archives, of course, but haven't seen this particular question brought up before. --bonadea contributions talk 08:37, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

Reverted. I see the IPs point also, but it's jarring to see a full name throughout the article when that is not the practice with almost every other biography. The IP also removed a paragraph without justification. Perhaps we should simple refer to the subject as "Brandon" thorough out the article. (I've probably reverted that in the past as well). Brandon would be technically compliant with MOS:FULLNAME and we could include an explanatory footnote on the first use to explain that his first name is being used for clarity. - MrX 🖋 11:32, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

I didn't see this until after the reversion, so I clicked on it expecting to see that somebody had misgendered him again and was kind of surprised by what I actually saw. I actually agree that in this case, the OP actually has a somewhat valid point — Brandon Teena kind of confounds usual practice for writing about transgender people somewhat, because where transgender people usually choose to adopt a new given name (and sometimes, but not always, a new surname as well) when they come out and begin to transition, Brandon Teena kept his birth names and just reversed the order of them so that his "dead" surname was now his "living" first name and vice versa. With the result that regardless of whether the article body refers to him as "Brandon" or "Teena", it's still going to be perceived as deadnaming him by at least some of the readership.

This is not the first time over the years that I've seen somebody perceive that using "Teena" in the article body was deadnaming him, either — although it is the first time I've seen somebody actively try to take the real dilemma into consideration and come up with an alternative that accounts for it. But of course, even if I think the IP has a decent point in principle, and articles are allowed to vary from normal practice if there's a compelling reason why a variance is needed in a particular instance, it's still enough of a variance from our standard WP:MOS that it would require a consensus to implement, not just one editor acting alone. Bearcat (talk) 12:33, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

I'd support keeping the use of the surname Teena throughout, but adding a hatnote explaining that it is being used as a surname, per standard Wikipedia style.--Trystan (talk) 13:56, 29 June 2020 (UTC)