Talk:Bikers Against Child Abuse

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A great 6min video

Saw this great video linked from a Glenn Beck eMail. -- AstroU (talk) 00:01, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

• http://www.glennbeck.com/2016/04/11/watch-bikers-guard-a-girls-house-night-and-day-to-protect-her-from-abusive-stepfather/

Mission Statement

As awesome as these guys are, should the "Mission Statement" part really just be a straight up unmarked quote? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.67.145.252 (talk) 19:58, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

Adding sources

Families in Context: Sociological Perspectives

similar organizations Miffedmess (talk) 14:32, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

undue weight on negative coverage

I'm a longtime Wikipedia editor in good standing, and am also a fully patched member of B.A.C.A. I have some concerns about this article, but because of my obvious WP:COI I'm not editing the article directly. I'd like to suggest changes to the article and get feedback from a neutral editor.

I'm concerned that this article suffers from WP:UNDUE weight. Currently, the whole article is 1750 words long, of which negative coverage makes up 689 words -- nearly one-half of the text. I don't think this reflects accurately on the organization overall. As a WP editor I understand that both negative and positive incidents will be included, as long as they are well sourced and reputable. But considering that B.A.C.A. includes thousands of members who have helped thousands of children, the amount of coverage dedicated to a handful of negative incidents is far out of proportion.

Suggested changes:

1. The sections "Flight 577 Incident", "Houston Chapter Pedophile" and "Texas child abuse incident" should be trimmed down to the core details and moved to a section later in the article.
2. Include a reference to the pilot study on B.A.C.A.'s effectiveness, which was accepted for publication in the journal "Evaluation and Program Planning" in August 2017. (Full text available at http://www.bacaworld.org/Documents/BACAResearchpaper.pdf
3. Observe that in cases in which B.A.C.A. has been involved, feedback from the law enforcement and criminal justice system has generally been positive. Some articles which include commentary from judges, prosecutors, and sheriffs:
   1. Arizona judge Michelle Morley and D.A.s Bill Montgomery and Michelle Arino in https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/karinabland/2019/05/10/karina-bland-bikers-against-child-abuse-arizona-chapter-do-what-it-takes-to-help-children-feel-safe/1159820001/
   2. Indiana state prosecutor Noah Schafer in https://www.cnhi.com/featured_stories/a-brotherhood-against-abuse-indiana-motorcycle-club-chapter-aims-to/article_abdfc8da-9bac-11e6-9b01-e79a448c098e.html
   3. Santa Clara County Sheriff spokesperson Sgt. James Jensen in https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/USA-Update/2015/0312/How-a-biker-club-seeks-to-protect-children-against-abuse
   4. County Prosecutor Jacob Shellabarger in https://www.missourinet.com/2017/10/20/prosecutor-missouri-man-showed-no-remorse-in-raping-and-molesting-a-little-girl/
4. Bikers Against Child Abuse is not a "motorcycle club" or an "MC". It is formally known as "Bikers Against Child Abuse International" or "B.A.C.A. International" and the article should use that term.
   1. Sources:
      1. The organization is registered with the IRS under the name "B.A.C.A. International".
      2. B.A.C.A. trademarks are registered to "B.A.C.A. International".
      3. By comparison, traditional MCs tend to be incorporated under that name, e.g. "Hells Angels MC", "Outlaws Motorcycle Club, Inc.", "Pagan's Motorcycle Club, Worldwide, Inc.".

Happy to discuss the specifics more. —Tim Pierce (talk) 23:52, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

Reply 29-JUN-2019

  Clarification requested  

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Regards,  Spintendo  02:03, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

References

Request edit

I propose removing the three subsections "Flight 577 incident", "Houston chapter pedophile" and "Texas child abuse scandal", and replace them with the following new section "Controversies" between "Membership" and "References":

On Sunday, January 25, 2004, a group of B.A.C.A. members were kicked off a Frontier Airlines plane preparing to leave Denver. One member, Darrell Sparti, approached a parent who had spanked his child on the flight and told him to stop, and an argument ensued. Following the argument, Frontier flight staff ordered both the family and the B.A.C.A. members off the plane, citing "the safety of the passengers."

On March 18, 2009, the Cyber Crime Unit of the Texas Attorney General's office announced that David Wayne Garvey, a member of B.A.C.A. in Houston, had been arrested for possession of child pornography. Upon being notified of his arrest, the Houston chapter revoked Garvey's membership. Garvey was sentenced on March 29, 2011, to 20 years on four counts of “Possession with intent promote child pornography”, Texas Penal Code 43.26(e).

Two members of the Sam Bass chapter of B.A.C.A. in Round Rock, Texas, Daniel Rodriguez and his wife Shirley Ann Rodriguez, were arrested on July 18, 2018, for 23 counts of abusing foster children in their care, including indecency with a child and injury to a child. The Sam Bass chapter revoked the memberships for both Daniel and Shirley Ann Rodriguez upon learning of the arrests.

The reason for this change is to reduce the degree to which these incidents are given undue weight, without sweeping the incidents or the sources under the rug. —Tim Pierce (talk) 04:41, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

References

--Cravinbob (talk) 08:04, 27 June 2020 (UTC)The term "gang"is misused and prejudicial in the entry. "Gang" was first used by Thomas Lynch the Attorney General of California. Lynch used "gang" in a law enforcement handbook he wrote in the 1960s on the subject of Hells Angels MC. BACA obviously is not a club but an organization with the goal of assisting abused children. Actions of any member that may be perceived as negative do not fit in this context just as a police officer being caught in an illegal act would not have bearing on that particular force's entry unless it were a pattern of behaviors by numerous officers. Ford Motor Company's entry probably makes mention of the first V8 engine Ford designed then released in the 1930s but doubtful Clyde Barrow is. Barrow was a notorious outlaw at that time greatly admired those engines and stole Fords to commit robberies since he could, with the V8 outrun any pursuing lawman. That BACA wears black leather is irrelevant on its own but the motorcycles when on a run are an attention getter, BACA needs the public to be aware of them and could use public's support.

Reply 29-JUN-2019

  Edit request implemented  

1. A general cleanup was performed, with {{undue weight}} claims being revised and the prose suggested in the edit request being integrated into the main body of text.
2. The {{undue weight}} template was replaced with a {{refimprove}} template to cover the article's referencing needs.
3. I believe that the claims regarding the BACA members being asked to leave a Frontier Airlines flight probably don't need to be in the article. First of all, those claims don't "fit" as well in the article (the flow of the prose, that is). Secondly, they merely involve a matter of convenience for the airline. The BACA members apparently decided that what was needed while the airplane sat on the ground that day was an impromptu parenting class whereupon shame would be dispensed by them upon a pair of fellow passenger parents. That the BACA members felt this to be a good idea is truly shocking. Unsurprisingly, this action created for the BACA members a situation where the airline then had to decide which would be more to the airline's convenience: letting BACA stay, or asking them to leave. It's no surprise then which outcome the airline chose. But in the end, all of this poor decision-making is not really notable. I've left it in the article nevertheless, but wouldn't mind if others thought it could be removed. The other two items dont involve matters of convenience, rather, they involve matters of criminality which carries more weight (and more references).

Regards,  Spintendo  05:58, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

Notes

All walks of life

There was a line after the bit about BACA claiming to have members from all walks of life casting aspersion on the veracity of said claim because BACA members use aliases... I removed that absurdity but left the rest intact. It's enough to say that "BACA claims". At that point, it's not repeating the claim as truth.

As a 401c3 non profit, you can see how much they pay their members, and it's nothing. To thus go and cast aspersion on the claim based on an irrelevant detail such as aliases is just absurd. I mean, sure it's possible they're all say motorcycle mechanics with similar backgrounds, but that's highly unlikely, and they sure as heck can't keep their motorcycles running without having a day job.

So, I feel "but this claim cannot be substantiated because they all use aliases" goes well beyond NPOV policy. I also felt it neccessary to add this lengthy explanation of why I made the edit I did because the whole article seems unnecessarily negative rather than neutral, so someone with bias may get upset about me trying to make an NPOV edit. The articles for other organizations don't go into details about how individual members have broken laws.

Also I'm disturbed by the inclusion of child abuse by members, or more to the point how such incidents are included. It's under "disgraced former members" but I feel like even then it paints a picture of the organization as a whole in an light of hypocrisy that is likely very unfair. After all, they are disgraced, FORMER members.

I don't know enough about the incidents, but I think someone who does should probably provide info as to the response BACA had upon finding out, as I highly doubt an organization that does thorough FBI background checks on members and helps children put their abusers behind bars is in any way secretly running child porn rings, which is the impression I feel the article may give that impression. Surely a large organization such as BACA is going to have some bad actors slip in on occasion and I think emphasis should be given to BACA's response to these people, rather than on their mere existence. --2601:CA:8500:B9F0:A5C1:73EF:585:B161 (talk) 19:38, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Request clarification on relevance

The "see also" part of the article has "List of outlaw motorcycle clubs" and "Outlaw motorcycle club". BACA seems to makes it quite clear in all of their communications with the public that they are NOT a club. They also work with law enforcement and even do very thorough fingerprint and criminal background checks on prospective members. Does "List of outlaw motorcycle clubs" and "Outlaw motorcycle club" even belong in "see also"? 2601:CA:8501:7C50:40C1:4EE0:213B:8DB3 (talk) 02:24, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

WP:TONE template from 2019

After countless optimizations and rewrites, does BACA still deserve an article-wide WP:TONE template after three years? I have contributed to its current state and therefore remain hesitant to remove the template without outside opinion. WhichUserAmI 00:08, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

October 2022

I posted the neutrality tag because User:‪PuckKCMO left the following message on my talk page: My name is Puck and I am the North American Continental Public Relations Officer for Bikers Against Child Abuse (B.A.C.A.). I made an edit to the page changing "motorcycle club" to "motorcycle organization" as it is more accurate. I didn't realize the limitations on links as this was my first time editing anything via Wikipedia. I thank you for setting me straight; I will make the edit without any links, which should be IAW the guidelines. Thank you! He then made another edit on the page without disclosing his WP:COI. Kire1975 (talk) 21:31, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

Revised intro and added context to satisfy neutrality condition. There has been no discourse surrounding the neutrality situation since this occurred, so if you have any reservations to allowing this change please do act upon them. WhichUserAmI 13:17, 16 May 2023 (UTC)