Talk:Bassoon/Archive 1

Archive 1

Image reversed

Umm, I just realized that the picture of the black bassoon is left-right reversed. Can it be edited so that it's not backwards?

I can make a mirror image of the posted image if I get some confirmation that this is really and still the case. Notthe9 03:03, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

The image has now been replaced with a different picture (one both correctly oriented and licensed under the GFDL). Mindspillage (spill yours?) 19:14, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"Solo and chamber literature" section removed

I removed the "Solo and chamber literature" section that followed "Concerti and other orchestral literature", because it was empty. I'll keep its structure here hoping that someone will write it.

==Solo and chamber literature==
===Baroque===
===Classical===
===Romantic===
===Contemporary===
Nabla 23:20, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

This was my outline, and I am a lazy bum who hasn't written it yet. Did look kind of ugly on the page empy there... :-) Mindspillage (spill yours?) 00:19, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Lindsay Cooper

I've changed the spelling of bassoonist Lindsey Cooper to Lindsay Cooper. "Lindsay" appears to be the more common way of spelling her name. Google returns 2000 hits for "Lindsay Cooper"+bassoon and 135 hits for "Lindsey Cooper"+bassoon. Also Google finds 161 pages crediting the album A View from the Bridge to "Lindsay" and 9 pages crediting it to "Lindsey" – so it can't be two different people. --Bruce1ee 08:58, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Main manufacturers

Changed the "main manufacturer" part. It shouldn't sound like Heckel and Fox are the "main" manufacturers. Not in Europe at least.

World wide they are, in terms of number of instruments sold. The current text is very awkward, "the Heckel factory remains and the"... I'm not even sure what this is attempting to say. --Gmaxwell 18:07, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Curtal

I just uniformized the spelling of "curtal" and linked the first instance. However, curtal redirects to dulcian, where it says the two terms are equivalent. This article says the dulcian evolved into the curtal. One or the other would seem to require correction. -- Rsholmes 15:41, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

External References

Wisconsin Public Radio's "University of the Air" today (21 May 2006) had an hour long program on the bassoon. Centering around an extended interview with a prominent French bassoonist, the conversation including discussion of the history of the instrument as the instrument's qualities and expressiveness. It also contained numerous and varied performance excerpts demonstrating what was discussed. The program's web page link to program page is not very detailed, but the show maintains an audio archive. Once the program appears in the archive, it might make a good external reference / link to include on this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.73.213.5 (talk) 01:23, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Update: I've added a link to the show's page. The link to the audio archive is on that page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pasbesoin (talk • contribs) 02:02, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Doubling in French orchestral music (esp. Berlioz)

If my memory serves, Berlioz generally uses twice as many bassoons as the other woodwinds, but it seems to me that this is really just written-out doubling...there aren't four independent parts going on. I believe this is due to the fact that the French bassoon has a lighter sound than the German bassoon and cannot balance the other instruments as well without extra numbers. Wspencer11 13:32, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

GA Re-Review and In-line citations

Members of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles are in the process of doing a re-review of current Good Article listings to ensure compliance with the standards of the Good Article Criteria. (Discussion of the changes and re-review can be found here). A significant change to the GA criteria is the mandatory use of some sort of in-line citation (In accordance to WP:CITE) to be used in order for an article to pass the verification and reference criteria. Currently this article does not include in-line citations. It is recommended that the article's editors take a look at the inclusion of in-line citations as well as how the article stacks up against the rest of the Good Article criteria. GA reviewers will give you at least a week's time from the date of this notice to work on the in-line citations before doing a full re-review and deciding if the article still merits being considered a Good Article or would need to be de-listed. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact us on the Good Article project talk page or you may contact me personally. On behalf of the Good Articles Project, I want to thank you for all the time and effort that you have put into working on this article and improving the overall quality of the Wikipedia project. Agne 03:11, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Bassoonists

I trimmed the blurbs about prominent bassoonists—but actually, those should go in stubs about the players themselves. Mindspillage (spill yours?) 19:52, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

Do we think it's actually useful noting how many notable bassoonists have also been teachers, and if so, would it not be more useful to say "teachers" rather than the odd term pedagogue? By comparison with other instruments' pages/lists of notable players it seems strange. --JennyRad 17:30, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I do, actually; some are as notable for their writings and instructional materials as for their work with students or their playing. Mindspillage (spill yours?) 03:21, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Point taken. But in that case the page almost devalues the term by applying it so much to almost everyone, instead of just, say, Camden, Weissenborn, Cooper and Toplansky. Doesn't it? --JennyRad 17:27, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Someone seems to have added a fifteen-year-old girl as a notable bassoonist. I find that very hard to believe, but I won't revert this just yet, maybe the contributor messed up the appended date or something. --Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 12:27, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Reasons for GA Delisting

This article's GA status has been revoked because it fails criterion 2. b. of 'What is a Good Article?', which states;

(b) the citation of its sources using inline citations is required (this criterion is disputed by editors on Physics and Mathematics pages who have proposed a subject-specific guideline on citation, as well as some other editors — see talk page).

LuciferMorgan 00:48, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Technique

In the ''Extended Technique'' section, the article claims that flutter tounguing is used on the bassoon. I know that bassoonists can double, and even triple toungue, but I don't know of anyone who can flutter toungue. Can anyone give me a source on this?Amphion 14:36, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I believe flutter tonguing occurs in the Janacek sextet for winds, Mladi. At least, when I played it there was such a passage... Wspencer11 15:53, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Okay. Thanks. Amphion 19:42, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

There is an example of flutter tonguing in the audio examples towards the bottom of the article too. --Gmaxwell 00:27, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Instrument Classification

All other instruments have that box on the side that classifies the instrument and shows it's range. Can someone please add this to the Bassoon Article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bassoonist123 (talk • contribs) 00:35, 17 March 2007 (UTC) WOW THANKS! How do you edit it?Bassoonist123 21:19, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

It's at the top of the page, hit "edit this page" while looking at the article. What do you want to change about it? I see the background color needs to be fixed. --Gmaxwell 21:20, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Usage in Ensembles

I don't think it's appropriate to say the Beethoven's Fifth is the first piece to have an independant contra part. Haydn called for it in the Creation and Mozart used it the Gran Partita Serenade. Should we revise this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.160.194.177 (talk) 22:36, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Grand partita originally called for a double Bass not contrabassoon. But today many people use contrabassoon instead for a complete wind ensemble... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.94.221.195 (talk) 11:06, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Good article status

I think what would put this article back on the good article list is inline citations. There is enough information here, but there are no citations. Werothegreat 19:35, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

The[1] article[2] has[3] been[4] well[5] cited[6] for[7] a[8] while[9], it's[10] just[11] that[12] no[13] one[14] has gotten[15] around[16] to[17] breaking[18] the[19] readability[20] by sitting[21] down[22] with[23] the[24] sources[25] and[26] moving[27] them[28] inline[29]. :) --Gmaxwell 14:15, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Additions and Improvements

I've taken the liberty of adding some improvements, based on my 30+ years as an amateur bassoonist--hope you like them. The section on "History" still needs to be re-written, as it says nothing about the likely invention of the bassoon by the Hotteterres--i.e., the bassoon was not "developed" from the dulcian, but arose alongside it, much as the piano arose alongside the harpsichord, the cello alongside the gamba, etc., etc. I'm not sure what to do about the problem of missing citations, but on the other hand, I don't see that many statements that are questionable--a couple I've removed, such as the one in the opening paragraph about the bassoon being "statistically the most difficult to play". Now that's something that you will never be able to document, even if it might be true! Cbrodersen 15:42, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I've edited the "early history" section, taking out the parts of the discussion that were beside the point, and adding the pertinant infomation, especially the bit about Hotteterre and the other makers. Cbrodersen 13:54, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

pic

I straightened the Praetorius pic, GA's shouldn't overlook such things. pschemp | talk 01:05, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Virtuoso players of the instrument

I'd like to see more info on scholars and players of the instrument; in the modern era, there are William (often Bill) Waterhouse and Milan Turkovic, and probably others. We owe a particular debt to Waterhouse, who not only contributed seminal recordings, but has also contributed commentary on history, has edited a great body of sheet music, and has made recordings that illustrate the character of different, often rare, types of the instrument, such as the tenor bassoon and various earlier types. He is also a major collector of such instruments, a role that should not be underestimated. 82.71.48.158 23:09, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Mozart concerti?

There's something not quite right about this sentence in the list of concerti: "Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, Bassoon Concerto in B flat, K191, the only surviving of an original three bassoon concertos by Mozart as well as the Sinfonia Concertante k 292a (spurious) for oboe, clarinet, horn and bassoon." I don't remember the details of what Wolfie actually wrote compared to what survives, so I'm hoping someone with access to sources can clean this up. Thanks! --Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 13:22, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I removed the Sinfonia Concertante (Its K297b and not K292a). Its likely spurious and its for an ensemble of oboe, clarinet, horn and bassoon. That's an ensemble piece. Include this and you include Haydn's non-spurious Sinfonia Concertante for Oboe, Clarinet, horn and bassoon, a few sinfonia concertantes by JC Bach plus many more of those types of work as well. Mozart has a Bassoon and Cello Duo, K292. I figured this section should stick to bassoon concerti and sonatas. DavidRF (talk) 06:10, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Fuchs?

Wasn't aware Fuchs wrote a concerto for any instrument besides piano (B-flat minor, op 27). Cite? Schissel | Sound the Note! 19:02, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Recent Edits

The recent edits by an anonymous person (only an IP address is listed) are heavy-handed and in many cases alter the meaning of the original text to the point of incorrectness. Case in point:

Circumstantial evidence indicates the baroque bassoon was newly-invented rather than evolving slowly from the old dulcian. The dulcian was not immediately supplanted, but continued in use well into the 18th century by Bach and others.

The concept of 'evolution', even though it's being negated here, was never the original intent. One might talk of 'modification' or 'alteration', but 'evolution' implies gradual change over time. Also, the edit mixes transitive (to invent) and intransitive (to evolve) verbs in the same sentence, which doesn't scan well for me.

I'm thinking of re-writing the sentence to read as follows:

Circumstantial evidence indicates that the baroque bassoon was a newly-invented instrument, rather than a simple modification of the old dulcian.Cbrodersen (talk) 20:42, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Still active bassoonits.

Unless someone can put down why these are actually notable, they should be removed. These names add nothing to the article without context. Aar☢n Bruce^Talk/_Contribs 14:54, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Based on the above, while tidying up some stuff, I removed all the redlinked and unsourced "notable bassoonists. I replaced them with links to articles. For the inactive bassonists I also replaced any that were alread mentioned in the body of the article. Without articles and sources it's hard to tell if the person is really notable or not. It also allows the drive-by adding of peoples friends. Here's the list of redlinks I removed. Still active: Gilbert Audin, Sergio Azzolini, Richard Beene, Stefano Canuti, Daniele Damiano, Dag Jensen, Cory Jones, Paulo Justi, Benjamin Kamins, Laurent Lefèvre, Eberhard Marschal, Christopher Millard, Frank Morelli, Gustavo Núñez, Stefan Schweigert, Klaus Thunemann, Milan Turkovic, Matthew Wilkie, Annaliese "Anya" Lawrence, Cory Jones and Diego Chenna. Inactive: Désiré-Hippolyte Dihau, Baron von Duernitz, Georg Friedrich Brandt, Louis Marie Eugène Jancourt, Mordechai Rechtman, Norman Herzberg and Ryan Chow. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 22:52, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

To be perfectly honest it depends what you mean by notable. If you mean notable for technique, ability and musicality then you should be including many many bassoonists, especially those on the List of Bassoonists. In my opinion it would be better to remove the section entirely and cite the List it's self. All other notable bassoonists for other things than playing would have been mentioned in the article anyway. Dr. Helix —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dr. Helix (talk • contribs) 17:57, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Daniel Smith

66.184.153.106 (talk) 21:52, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

66.184.153.106 (talk) 21:55, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

I can't know if you're a bona fide musician, but I can tell you'd make an excellent Wikipedia sysop or admin. Willi Gers07 (talk) 19:10, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Vandalism

This pages seems to be vandalised fairly regularly. Would others support a call to protect the article, allowing editing by registered users only? Millstream3 (talk) 11:00, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Not really. Yesterdays vandalism was the first since 21 September and you would need a lot of IP vandalism per day to get it semi-protected. Look at Wikipedia:Rough guide to semi-protection and compare this page with the history of Inuit which isn't semi-protected. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 13:52, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I just corrected vandalism. The IP address that posted it was: 77.100.13.151

Lexandalf (talk) 23:17, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Orange Medicine Bottle ?

I use Wikipedia daily but seldom comment or edit anything so please either correct me or move this around etc if it's irrelevant or posted incorrectly.

I'm wondering what, if anything is magical about the color of the container used to soak or store a bassoon reed. The text says (paraphrasing) 'the reed .. should be stored in an ORANGE medicine container...wide enough to.....' A plastic medicine bottle does sound like a good container to store a bassoon reed, but I don't think the color of the container is of any consequence whatsoever. Thanks for listening Moucon (talk) 05:06, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

Redlinked performers...

Do we really have to have all these redlinks for players? There are boatloads of them, both in the article itself and in the list of currently active "notable bassoonists." I'd love to yank them all out but will wait for the chorus of disagreement before I do so. --Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 13:42, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

My vote is to go ahead and remove any but the very most notable names (if any) among the redlinked names. Markhh (talk) 03:51, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Should we split this article

Seeing as it is tagged for being too long, I am wondering if we should think about splitting this article up. Perhaps we could add 'history of the bassoon' 'bassoon reed' and 'bassoon repertoire' articles? We can merge the bassoon concerto and bassoon sonata articles into a new repertoire article. --Bsnjon (talk) 06:07, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

The repertoire really should have its own articles and you can use the two articles (for bassoon concertos and sonatas) that already exist. Squandermania (talk) 15:01, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Contemporary music

I disagree with the use of the term "contemporary" for music of the 1900s. I think we should reserve its use for music of our generation, going with the literal definition of the term. Thus "Twentieth Century" would be a good substitute for our literature list. Don't you agree?

First, please Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages. Thanks.

User:209.11.111.66 wrote in an edit summary [30] changing the subsection heading "20th century" to "Contemporary":

"20th century implies a specific *STYLE* of music, not just a time frame. Richard Strauss, for example is very much not 20th cent. music. Thus we use contemporary to avoid being inaccurate."

I reverted this as "20th century" does not imply a style any more than "Contemporary" does (I would argue that the latter has more stylistic connotations). Taking the preceding subsections as styles: "Baroque", "Classical", "Romantic"; the next step would be "Modernism". Taking them as time periods or eras would give "20th century" and then "Contemporary", as in the rest of Wikipedia:

Lastly, it is far from accurate to describe Strauss as "contemporary".

Hyacinth 07:31, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Contemporary does not properly mean modern. It means existing at the same time as a thing you have to specify or a thing clearly implied by the context. Music that existed at the same time as Strauss is contemporary music in respect to Strauss, and it's proper to call it contemporary if that specific relation is stated or clearly implied. Music that exists now is contemporary in respect to ourselves, and it's proper to call it contemporary if--and only if--that specific relation is stated or clearly implied. TheScotch (talk) 09:45, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Lee Minho

Lee Minho is on the list of notable bassoonists, but the link is to a disambiguation page. I can't find out anywhere who is referred to - there are two people of that name with Wikipedia articles (Lee Min-ho (actor born 1987) and Lee Min-ho (actor born 1993)), and I can't find any reference anywhere to either of them playing the bassoon. There's no mention on the list of bassoonists page given as the main article and there doesn't seem to be any citation.

I've unlinked his name for now, since the link is not remotely helpful.

Anybody know who he is? CarrieVS (talk) 22:56, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

External links modified

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Similarity of Flute, Clarinet and Bassoon Fingerings

Anyone who has played these instruments (as I have) knows that there is absolutely no basis in fact for making this claim. The clarinet, for example, overblows at the octave and a fifth, whereas the flute and bassoon overblow at the octave. And the bassoon has the additional burden of "flicking" (see the section on Technique in the article), which places it apart from either the flute or clarinet.

Besides, this sort of gratuitous information is completely unnecessary in the introductory paragraph, and should be avoided. I even think the sentence that was added about key and tonehole spacing being too wide for children is out of place, and should be relocated to elsewhere in the article. Cbrodersen 11:47, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

I know this entry is eleven years old, but this is mostly for those who are reading this later.

As someone who has also played each of these instruments (although primarily bassoon) for some time, it should be pointed out that the flute and clarinet use schemes based around the Boehm system, while the bassoon uses the Heckel system. Although a rough comparison between the two can be made, they are not similar enough for this to be pointed out any more than the similarities between the bassoon and oboe, or any other woodwind.

Gerphe (talk) 20:56, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

Too Long

I put this tag in there because I thought that many of the sections could easily be their own articles. The "Technique" section and the "Reeds and Reed Construction" sections seem like they would be good candidates to start with. Any other ideas? --Lexandalf (talk) 01:54, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

I do somewhat agree on that, but it would be very controversial because there are many many ways of making reeds and everyone could disagree on this and that. Though I do think it is a very complicated topic and does deserve it's own page, but it would take a lot of time and effort to do so. If you want to, go ahead. Minervaorlando12345 (talk) 00:25, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Hello, I am currently looking to potentially edit this article, and I agree with the concept of giving some of these sections their own articles. For instance, the list of famous bassoon players could be given its own page like the oboe page does for its players. I was also thinking that I might simplify some of the technical language on here so that it's easier for people who haven't had a lot of experience playing the bassoon to understand. Since this is my first time editing a page, I am a little bit hesitant, so please let me know if y'all think these are good potential edits and whether I should go through with them. Thanks! UnfoldingWords (talk) 17:04, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Organizational Edits

Hello all, I posted this message earlier, but I just wanted to make certain that everyone is aware that I am going to be working on editing this page for the next couple of weeks. I will be working on a sandbox version first (here's the link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:UnfoldingWords/Bassoon) before I implement the new changes in the actual article. I am more than willing to adjust my edits to account for anyone else's edits that they perform in the time being. If you have any questions, concerns, and/or advice, please feel free to leave me a message on my talk page! I am currently a college student, so I am always open to learning new things. I'll be sure to update this section whenever I'm preparing to begin a new type or round of edits. Thank y'all in advance for your patience! UnfoldingWords (talk) 05:33, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

Hi y'all, here's a link to a sandbox I created to plan out my edits: User:UnfoldingWords/Bassoon. I apologize in advance for the title; I'm still working out the logistics of Wikipedia. Hope this helps! Also, I plan on adding a list of edits here soon, so hopefully it should clarify my intentions. UnfoldingWords (talk) 02:05, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

List of Planned Edits:

• Move large lists to their respective Wiki page.
• Change some of the section headings to reflect their content more accurately.
• Change the order of sections to reflect relevance to general audiences.
• Move information from one section to another according to relevance.
• Identify excessive information per Wikipedia's policies.

UnfoldingWords (talk) 00:50, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Proposed Expansion to Lead Section

Hello y'all, I was taking a look at the lead section and found that it could be expanded by adding a few important pieces of some of the article's topics. For instance, maybe we could add in some summarized parts of the history section so that people who are simply wishing to understand what a bassoon is and where it comes from can access a basic understanding of the information without having to scroll down the page. Please let me know what you think so I can implement the changes. Thanks!UnfoldingWords (talk) 03:40, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

Too Much Detail in Fingerings sub-section?

Hi y'all, I have a quick question: do y'all think that perhaps the Fingerings section has a little too much detail? I tried reading the sub-section, and I found it quite difficult to understand seeing as I am not a bassoonist but rather someone who is trying to learn more about the bassoon and what it might take to play one. Since Wikipedia is supposed to function as an encyclopedia rather than an instruction manual, perhaps we could simplify the fingerings section so that it sounds more like the Acoustics section in the clarinet article? (I just thought I'd bring the clarinet article up because it has a GA-class rating and is written so that non-clarinetists can understand it but clarinetists can get something new out of it).UnfoldingWords (talk) 04:03, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

This section is very messy. First, it uses an octave denomination which is not the standard one and which contradicts the pitch names mentioned earlier in the article regarding the range of the instrument (it seems to split octaves at A, which on the paper could make sense since A is the first letter of the alphabet, but more commonly octaves are split from C to C). Second, it is factually incorrect. The left hand index finger does NOT have a key with a hole in it, this is an oboe feature. Also, the last sentence about the "frontmost key" of the right hand little finger is spatially confusing, and wrong (should be F#, not Ab, that's the key described just before, plus no pinky key has to be played along with the thumb key).

I wanted to fix this section, but I also thought that it should probably be reworked entirely. The focus of this section should be on the current "keywork" of the instrument, and not on "modern fingerings" as this doesn't discuss fingering at all and is not a fingering chart either (and as I understand it, Wikipedia doesn't welcome this type of information).

I also think that there should be a section on the registers of the instrument: low, fundamental, overblown, and 3rd or higher modes. Sitaron (talk) 21:11, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

Unsourced Marilyn Manson Bassoon Claim

I've tried to get rid of it twice, but there's a couple of fucking losers who apparently don't read edit messages or check diffs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.178.23.216 (talk • contribs) 10:15, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Pitch

Is a bassoon pitched in C or B♭? —  $PЯINGrαgђ  01:54, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

It depends on how you define the term "pitched." The fundamental note of the instrument is B-flat, so acoustically you could say it is "in" B-flat, but there is no difference between the written note and the resulting pitch (that is, a printed C on the page would result in a sounding B-flat), which is the usual definition of what "key" an instrument is in. So most people would say it is in C. --Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 13:27, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Deep nitpickery, You wouldn't say that it's acoustically in b-flat.. the first harmonic wrap/register transition is on G. Acoustically it looks like a "G" instrument with a keyed extension tube. --Gmaxwell 13:53, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

"Pitched in (some key)" is such a funny term. My bassoon instructor says you determine the pitch of an instrument in the following way: Put down the 3 standard keys with your pointer, middle and ring finger on both hands, and the 'most commonly used key' with your right pinky, and what ever concert pitch that is, is the pitch of the instrument. Alto sax you get E flat (which is what it's "pitch" is) On bassoon, you get F, BUT, bassoon reads music keyed in C, while alto sax reads music keyed in E flat, its a REALLY confusing issue to be honest. Bassgoonist Talk 15:05, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

OK, what do you mean by pitch? Bb is clearly wrong: you're not going to claim that an instrument changes to A just because you put on an interchangeable A bell. There are two possibilities:

Does normally written music for the instrument transpose or not? That's what makes saxophones and clarinets "in Bb" or "in Eb". Bassoon music doesn't transpose. By this definition, it's in C, and that's what Wspencer11 is referring to.

What's the base note? This is what Bassgoonist is referring to. The problem is to find a base note. On the bassoon, all fingers off works correctly, placing it in F, like the cor anglais and (treble) recorder. But on those instruments, all fingers off gives a slightly different note, because of their fingering systems. All fingers on (but in the case of the bassoon, no thumbs) should give an octave lower, but again fingerings get in the way. For all current instruments, all fingers of the left hand give the dominant. In the case of the bassoon, it's C, so the instrument is in F if you look at it like that.

I can't understand Gmaxwell's viewpoint at all. Groogle (talk) 03:39, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

My comment was that Wspencer was correct, but I was nitpicking his statement "fundamental note of the instrument is B-flat", which isn't strictly correct. You can view the bassoon as a transposing instrument with keywork which makes it non-transposing (which is much of why the keywork is fairly complicated) and a keyed extension which allows it to sound below its normal fundamental. But as I said, deep nitpickery. Though it isn't unimportant, these aspects of the bassoon's design are critical in its sound. In any case, when people ask 'what key' an instrument is in, they are asking if it's a transposing instrument i.e. if it sounds as it reads. The bassoon is non-transposing, so you'd say it's in C. --Gmaxwell (talk) 10:58, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

By that argument, the violin is in G! You are arguing about two different things. Millstream3 (talk) 22:37, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

As far as I am aware the bassoon is in F. If you take the recorder family for example then the standard is that if you put three fingers down then the instrument is in the V below that note - with the bassoon that makes a C which goes down into F. This is very similar to the bass recorder which reads bass clef and has similar fundamental fingerings to the bassoon. Dr. Helix (talk) 18:06, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

The bassoon is a non-transposing instrument, therefore it should be in C, correct? I'm only going off what I've been taught in band classes, but I'm pretty sure it's a C instrument. LonelyPker (talk) 08:35, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

To clear this up once and for all, by "non-transposing" we mean "does the instrument play notes at the pitch they are written". It does; the bassoon is not transposing; it is in C. Any other comments about acoustical properties are irrelevant. Millstream3 (talk) 11:20, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Certainly not "once and for all". Transposition relates to the way people write music for the instrument, and it has nothing to do with the instruemnt itself. Are you going to say that an F treble recorder is in C because it doesn't transpose? And a cor anglais is a transposing instrument or not depending on how the music is published? Groogle (talk) 23:37, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

The point is that by having different instruments within the same instrument group transpose to different keys, the fingerings and sheet music will be identical, enabling the performers to switch between the different instruments without performing mental gymnastics. But yes, it has nothing to do with the acoustical properties of the instruments, and everything to do with tradition and notational practice. In this respect, an F treble recorder is indeed in C. (The name might be a rest from earlier times, when flutes where not fully chromatic, and therefore only suitable for a playing in a limited number of keys. Perhaps. I don't rightly know.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.240.71.208 (talk) 14:10, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Bassoon is pitched in C. There's quite a lot of confusing talk above. The key an instrument is ptched in is the note that sounds when a written C is played. It's that simple. Nothing to do with the fingering, and nothing to do with the fingering of a different instrument. If you use another instrument's fingering on bassoon, you might think you're getting a different pitch; if you use oboe fingering, you might think a bassoon is in F; it's not.

A bassoon is not - mechanically - some sort of low oboe, it's a bassoon. There are some passing similarities in the reed, and a similar pitch/volume pattern but that's about it. They're no more related than a trumpet and trombone, or a cello and contrabass. A bassoon is also not some sort of cor anglais, clarinet, or recorder.

Recorders use two sets of fingerings. They're both in C as the written C produces a sounded C.

It you use the LH 1-2-3 RH 1-2-3-4, you will get C on a C flute or C oboe, and the correct pitch of a saxophone. For B♭ clarinet, 1-2-3 1-2-3-4 in the middle register will give you B♭ as expected, but E♭ in the lower register. The clarinet is not in B♭ and E♭ at the same time!

[I have made no changes to the main page.] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 106.69.215.147 (talk) 08:36, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Student Editor Introduction

Hello everyone, I'm bassoonisms and I will be revising this article as part of my class on chamber music literature this spring. I plan on mainly revising the lead section of the article, as well as adding in some in-line citations in areas where there are few or none throughout the entire article itself. I look forward to your feedback on my revisions! Bassoonisms (talk) 00:01, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Hello everyone, checking in to update you about my revisions. I added four sources to the "sources" section under the references. I will be revising the entire section on ensemble use. The sections on Early and Later ensembles will be the main areas, but I will be adding citations to the other sections as well as long as the information as verifiable. Additionally, I plan to take a closer look at the references section and will be removing any sources that are out of date or do not follow Wikipedia's guidelines. Bassoonisms (talk) 16:17, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Hello everyone, here is my (hopefully final) update about my revisions. I rewrote the entirety of what used to be the sections, "Earlier ensembles" and "Later and modern ensembles." I reorganized this section by time period and removed claims that did not have inline citations - I kept claims that I was able to find sources to verify with. I also added and reworded a few small sentences in the "Jazz" and "Popular music" sections, with citations to support the information I added. Finally, I expanded the lead to include basics about how the instrument is positioned, how sound is produced, and mentioned the complexity of the fingering system compared to other instruments. I thought this information would be good to add since it helps provide the reader a basic understanding of what a bassoon is without getting into the minutiae of the instrument's pedagogy. Bassoonisms (talk) 20:19, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 13 February 2019 and 3 May 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): UnfoldingWords.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 15:22, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 11 January 2021 and 1 May 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Bassoonisms.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 17:52, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Handrest

In 2007, I asked if we could please have an image with the handrest shown. Does anybody here own an instrument that could take a picture? Samsara 14:57, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

I've fulfilled this request. — Jeremy 08:39, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, Jeremy - now I just need to find time to photoshop that onto the lead image, and we'll finally have a bassoon. ;) Samsara 08:23, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

The handrest is shown the wrong way; the thick part should be on the upper side, so the thumb adjusting to it easily reaches the big ("pancake") key. The thick end also prevents the instrument to slide downwards.Almirena (talk) 09:29, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

The reason why I took the photo that way is because that's the only orientation that physically fits. If I have the large bit at the top, it presses on the webbing between my thumb and index finger so much that I physically cannot reach the B hole. Surely that can't be correct. — Jeremy 22:22, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

Almirena is correct about the hand rest orientation. If the thick part prevents you from reaching the holes, the hand rest you have wasn't created with your hand size in mind. However, I believe that there is no strict rule as to how the hand rest should be positioned as long as it allows for proper finger position over the keys. This is a helpful video that explains the importance of a hand rest/crutch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPwFzqVFsW4 Bassoonic Acid (talk) 07:41, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

I agree with Almirena and Bassoonic Acid. The photos below show my hand rest and my hand in playing position. I propose to replace the current image with the first one if people agree.

Bassoon showing close up of right hand rest (crutch) and thumb keys

Right hand on crutch (in standard orientation)

John Y (talk) 08:21, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

Bassoon range

I think we should agree on what range we will publish for the bassoon. I suppose that certain freaks of nature enjoy playing high A-flat above the treble staff, but I am not one of them. Nonetheless, doesn't it seem logical that the graphical depiction of the range should match the text description? I, for one, certainly don't want a bunch of young composers reading this page and writing high G's in all their bassoon pieces. I vote for low b-flat to high d, with perhaps some discussion of extended ranges (to low a and high g). Anybody disagree? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Srhanna (talk • contribs) 06:17, 10 February 2005 (UTC)

I'm fine with the range depicted in the picture, with standard range extending to high E (indeed, a good portion of fairly mainstream solo rep has the high E in it, much to my frustration!), and extended range extending upwards. Will change the wording to reflect that. Mindspillage (spill yours?) 16:10, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

O.k. I accept the high E as mainstream. Is there mainstream literature that includes the high A-flat? George Perle uses the high G quite famously in the three inventions, but I have no knowledge of either literature examples or fingerings for a-flat. I could be convinced if someone would like to send me a recording of themselves playing an a-flat major arpeggio covering three octaves (humor).

I can't think of any pieces offhand than contain it, but there are fingerings published on the International Double Reed Society website here (actually, there are fingerings published for even higher notes, too, up to the C#: theoretically you can go even higher, but no one's written it down that I know of, probably because anyone who's tried has passed out after trying. ;-)). You can, however, hear a high A-flat being played in the audio sample of the bassoon's range, now, if you'll take that as proof that it is possible. I suppose I could manage an arpeggio as long as I didn't have to play it too fast! (Of all the fingerings on the website, only one of them worked for me, and naturally, it's the hardest one to reach.) Mindspillage (spill yours?) 19:14, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Even though there is some dispute, if it is possible playing a high Ab, we can conclusively say that it is technically part of the range, but we could say the the tradition range of the bassoon is from low Bb to high D or E, depending if you want to include those very nice composers who wrote very high E's. Hope this helps Minervaorlando12345 (talk) 00:23, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

This file needs fixing. Some versions have an A at the top and others have an A♭ at the top.

I'm not sure how to fix that; I thought the alternative PNG versions were all derived from the SVG file, but apparently not. Tayste (edits) 08:44, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

I've made a version that has an A♭ as the top note. The image with the A also seems to have been converted (badly) from a raster format, if you zoom in, you can see that the treble clef is especially bad. I'm not a bassoonist, so I'll leave people who know what they're talking about to decide whether or not to use this image.

Zax27 (talk) 23:10, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

Arguments probably don't belong in the article...

The text:

However, the usual etymology that equates fagotto with "bundle of sticks" is somewhat misleading, as the latter term did not come into general use until later. However an early English variation, "faget", was used as early as 1450 to refer to firewood, which is 100 years before the earliest recorded use of the dulcian (1550). Further citation is needed to prove the lack of relation between the meaning "bundle of sticks" and "fagotto" (Italian) or variants. Some think that it may resemble the Roman fasces, a standard of bound sticks with an axe. A further discrepancy lies in the fact that the dulcian was carved out of a single block of wood—in other words, a single "stick" and not a bundle.

Has a few issues. First, chained sentences starting with "however." Then rather than adding a "citation needed" the discussion is taking place in the text. Also, the "Some think..." should probably get a {{who}} tag. Miskaton (talk) 23:48, 15 June 2023 (UTC)