Talk:Arain/Archive 4

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Notable people list

This is really disappointing you removed all notable names in one go without actually tagging them. I don't have any association with the subject. I am giving all RS to improve this article. I think you have not read any of that notable name associated with this caste. Sources were in those article. User:sitush, will you even not allow me constrictive editing ? Dont you want to see this article in good shape. At present this article is just stub what you want. It would have been good if you would have done some research work on this caste and added. ScholarM (talk) 14:53, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Such names are everywhere on Wikipedia and that too without source see List of Nambudiris and this [Notable personalities]. I hope you are not working hard only here.ScholarM (talk) 15:00, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

I have previously referred to User:Sitush/Common#Castelists. It is not optional. - Sitush (talk) 16:17, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

For what it is worth, I have now cleaned up the list at the Awan article. You may not be aware but there is a constant tension at caste/tribe articles between people seeking to promote their community and/or add what they know and people who are trying to follow our policies, guidelines and consensus. Unfortunately, there are far more of the former than of the latter, so things inevitably deteriorate and then need a big clean up. - Sitush (talk) 19:55, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Please clean up list of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nambudiris also. I may not be editing this page now but would like to see whether you want this article to be expanded or not ? I will suggest here draft points to see it.

I thought you are suggesting me User:Sitush/Common#Castelists as wiki rules. This is just rules made by you. It can be changed and modified. I have many reservations to certain points of this caste-list of you. I don't want edit war. you suggested me go slow , I took time but in between you did not care and removed which you did not like. ScholarM (talk) 10:34, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

No, they are not my "rules". It is a summary of long-standing consensus and there are links to the community discussions etc. I removed merely that which did not comply and then, far from going slow, you decided to subvert the process by creating List of Arain. You don't come out of this as an innocent smelling of roses. - Sitush (talk) 11:47, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Consensus is developed here and is changed as things changes.It is never permanent. Plea of this can't be used to deny the expansion of articles. I tried to add some names to the article in notability heading which you deleted then only i came to know that adding more names here is not liked as such so thought to create a list of those names. Though there are so many lists of various castes here at wiki which have notable names but you did not allow that too. Please either expand this page or allow others to do it. I may not edit but at-least this and these types of pages must reflect balanced picture about the subject. The RS sources are rejected on one plea or another plea which kills the balance of the subject. ScholarM (talk) 14:29, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

If people follow the policies etc then stuff won't be removed or otherwise changed. It isn't hard to do if you are starting from the perspective of being an encyclopaedia; if you are starting from the perspective of wanting to enhance the perception of a community, however, it could be frustrating. - Sitush (talk) 16:17, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Reverting Edits

I edited about origin of Arain tribe but someone reverted it. Following are the sources which I used in my edits. Please make sure not anyone try to vandalize it.

Spiritual Guides of Sarwari Qadri Order

Arain Diaspora in the Rohilkhand region of India: A historical prespective....

I found about the discussion of the author of Arain Diaspora in the Rohilkhand region of India: A historical prespective.... Prof Rehan Asad that he is a medical researcher not a historian but there is no comment about Dr. Shams Jillani who is a co-author of this book. He is a well known Canadian author, editor and columnist and Islamic Scholar. Here is article about him in "aalmiakhbar" Urdu newspaper. Offical website of Shams Jillani. Prof Rehan Asad mentioned him in preface of book. I think these all links are enough to prove that Dr. Shams Jillani exits and a renowned author about Islamic history.

Further Sources

• Aine Haqiqat Nama pp 161

• Tarerkh Arain

DdBbCc22 (talk) 00:25, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

I found this source The Arains: A Historical Perspective. Where author has discussed Arab origin theory of Arain tribe. ScholarM (talk) 11:22, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Strikes me that you have removed a bunch of stuff also. Have you, or is it just Wikipedia's terrible mobile interface? - Sitush (talk) 17:38, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Also, please note that tarikhs are not considered reliable & nor are self-published works. I think you have just reinstated the crap I removed recently. - Sitush (talk) 17:44, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Don't you know, DdBbCc22, that self-published sources aren't allowed to be used here? Eliko007 (talk) 18:40, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

If you look up this page then you (DdBbCc22) will see that the sources you added have indeed been removed previously as unreliable. What is more, ScholarM definitely knows this. Someone is steerinf very close to a block or topic ban. - Sitush (talk) 19:13, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

The aggressiveness Sitush you have shown is really high. Since there was no consensus on my proposals, I did not come to edit this article until I saw one uninvolved editor edited it. Though some of his sources may be considered weak but how is unreliable , Please explain. ScholarM (talk) 19:40, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

WP:SPS. I am sure this has akready been explained in relation to a similar source. It isn't even a particularly difficult one to check because we have an article for the publisher. - Sitush (talk) 20:27, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

References

It is amess

Post by User:Janejo59 self-redacted

The last good edit that I can find is that of Charlesdrakew in August 2015. Loads of POV content has been added since then while retaining attribution to Jaffrelot and/or other scholars. I don't know what to do about this. It is a WP:BLP violation to attribute views to scholars, who never said what we claim. Unless somebody is willing to sit and watch this page perennially, we should remove all attributed statements. Sitush, what do you think? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 18:47, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

I think as of now scholarM has given the most balanced view with different references and by far scholarM has given the best page on arain so far without being biased towards 1 side. Vijaysupaa (talk) 21:29, 13 May 2020 (UTC) Strike CU blocked account-- Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 21:22, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

I am afraid it is a mess. For starters, we should avoid Raj sources. Kautilya3, I am on mobile most of the time at present so deep reverting is difficult. However, that is what I would support. ScholarM, appreciate what you have tried to do but I think you need to review the info at User:Sitush/Common before editing caste/tribe articles, sorry. - Sitush (talk) 01:40, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

Please enlighten me which wiki rules says to not add British era sources. The substantial information about a farming community such as Arain can be found in Agricultural sources of that era. If we need to write development in that era to whom we would rely ? A scholar after 200 years ? I would like to trim down headings which seems to be lengthy. ScholarM (talk) 18:34, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

WP:RS tells you that we prefer scholars in the areas of specialisation, in this case, sociologists and historians. WP:HISTRS tells you that modern historical scholarship is required for historical topics. Raj era sources were mostly written by officials who didn't have any scientific/scholarly training of any kind. They were writing for fulfulling the needs of an empire, not pursuing knowledge. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 08:15, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

• Hmmm interesting to see ‘non Arab origin’ heading in bold and ‘Arab origin’ heading not in bold and deleted!!!. A user in his talk page has previously mentioned that the ‘arain’ page seems to go against every Arab theory put forward, and indeed that’s exactly the way the administrators of this page tend to portray the image of the arain cast as none Arabs, no wonder edit warring can never end on this page. It is better just to delete this page of Wikipedia that’s probably justice. Janejo59 (talk) 19:28, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

Everything should be in encyclopedic form, the article must reflect complete picture of particular community from RS. I will try to find more contemporary Reliable sources to expand this article. I hope veteran editors will help in constructive editing and expansion than just talking about reverting. ScholarM (talk) 20:32, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

@your statement ‘Raj era sources were mostly written by officials who didn't have any scientific/scholarly training of any kind. They were writing for fulfulling the needs of an empire, not pursuing knowledge.’ Seems like your personal view, were is this written about Raj sources?....scholarM had done a good job, secondly it seems true that page monitors of this group want to delete any Arab theory being put forward whether with references or without lol. Vijaysupaa (talk) 16:02, 18 May 2020 (UTC) Strike CU blocked account-- Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 21:22, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

The WP:BURDEN for demonstrating the reliability of sources rests on the people who want to include content. As far as I am concerned, the Raj era sources do not constitute "contemporary historical scholarship" as required by WP:HISTRS. Take it to WP:RSN if you want to contest it. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 17:55, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Vijaysupaa, you have got that right that any Arab theory is deleted as I have noticed scholarM has improved the change requested and wrote ‘it is said they migrated from Arabia’ in the introduction, as Kautilya3 complained before as to having said that they ‘have migrated’ once the change is made according to Kautilya3 satisfaction, and now is calling it ‘folklore’, which is an expressed opinion, this page has always been 1 sided somehow the Wikipedia authority should be contacted and the page banned. as this page believes in modern historitians like a 1000yr later from the event because somehow they would have spiritual ability to know what had happened lol, but not actual historical books on arain written by prominent historition. Books such as ‘tareekh al arain’, ‘Saleem al tawreekh’, ain-e-haqeeqat, ‘Sham e Multan’ are completely ignored and classified as folklore 😆 what narrow minded opinion Khanzada7 (talk) 18:51, 18 May 2020 (UTC)Strike CU blocked account-- Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 21:22, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

If you have a historian source that demonstrates that Arains are descendants of Arabs, please produce it. There are thousands of castes in the subcontinent, each equally fanatical about their mythologies. There is nothing new here.

And, please don't talk of "rights". Wikipedia is a source of information, not of "rights". -- Kautilya3 (talk) 19:25, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Lol 😆 khanzada7 has just mentioned the historian resources I.e, the history books mentioned and scholarM had added some which were deleted, it is different that you are not willing to accept them Kautilya3. Janejo59 (talk) 19:45, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

• For the record: Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of Janejo59.-- Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 21:29, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

But are us arains really descendants of arabs and are mehars considered arains? Sidhu.ancx40 (talk) 13:26, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 September 2020

It is stated that the Article regarding the Arain tribe is not complete. Only Punjabi is mentioned in the language section. However the Arain tribe is scattered throughout Pakistan and depending on the region the members of the tribe speak Punjabi, Saraiki, Sindhi, Pashto, Balochi and Urdu. There are considerable amount of Arains living in the Dera Ismail Khan, Tank and Bannu districts of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa which speak Saraiki and Pashto respectively. Moreover, Arains of Sindh speak Sindhi. Tariq Masood Arain is a reknowned politician and former member of Sindh Assembly who is a Sindhi speaking Arain. Regarding the regions where the tribe is found is also incomplete and misleading. The tribe is not only confined to Lahore. Arains are found in all major cities of Punjab with the highest number of Parliament members. Arains are present throughout Pakistan majorly in Punjab, Sindh, Balochistan and Khyber Pakhtunkhwa.

The term Arain (Al-Raee) is a joining form of Al Raee means head person of a tribe or sometimes shepherd in Arabic. According to Moulana Akbar Shah Khan Najeebadi the Arain word is a later form of "Areehai", drive from Areha "Jericho" a town in modern Palistine. After the Arab conquest of Sindh some Arain spread towards Sulaiman Mountain ranges whereas a bulk of them spread around the rivers of Punjab region. Also a considerable population of these Arab tribes settled in Multan region also. Before partition Arains were settled having good posts and landholding status in various districts of Eastern Punjab (modern Indian Punjab) including Jalandhar, Amritsar, Gurdaspur, Ambala, former Patiala state, Ferozpur and Ludhiana. Although a huge population of Arain was also predominantly found in the the districts of current Pakistan having diminant positions including Montgomery, Lyallpur, Lahore, Gujranwala, Gujrat, Rawalpindi, Sialkot, Deraghazi Khan, Bahawalpur, and Rahim Yar Khan. After 1947, almost all Arain Muslim population migrated to Pakistan and settled in Faisalabad the new name of Lyallpur, Lahore, Bhakkar, and Bahawalpur. In southern Punjab the Arains who are living there pre-partition since centuries speaks Saraiki as their mother tongue. The Arain who migrated from Eastern Punjab (Indian Punjab) to Pakistan's southern Punjab have great contributions in the region.

Tank Pakistan have a considerable population of influential Arain tribe. The Arains of Tank District found both as Pashto speaking and Saraiki speaking. The Arain tribe found predominantly in Tank as Islam arrived in Tank in the 8th century A.D. during Muhammad Bin Qasim's expeditions towards Multan. The Arains of Tank are the descendants of those Arab tribes who came in the region with Muhammad Bin Qasim and later headed toward Sulaiman mountain range towards west of Multan. Arain tribe have really good reputation in the Tank city area and surrounding areas since centuries. Current nazim of the Tank city Advocate Zahid Khan Arain is also elected from the Arain community.

Mehr Hassan Ahmed (talk) 11:24, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

You would have to point to reliable sources that support these changes. – Thjarkur (talk) 11:45, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

wrong history of Arain (al raee)

I have been coming across this wiki page every year and it seems, that the editors or page founder is completely against the arains, and the arains are being mis-represented. Throughout history arains are being told about their origin from there ancestors passed on from generation to generation, that they have descended from the Arabs who had arrived in the year 711A.D with Mohammad bin qasim. It is a different matter that it’s not agreed whether all arains were the progeny of 1 man called ‘Habib al raee’ from the quraysh or whether they are from different from different members from the 6000 soldiers that arrived. it is well known that the word ‘arain’ is not related to ‘aryan’ hence this has nothing to do with the ‘indo-aryan’ lineage. The word ‘Arain’ has changed over time from ‘ar-rain’ or al-raee’ being the original, which means shepherd in Arabic. the arains may well have ‘Sanskrit rajput writings’ as when they had settled and there was no Urdu language at the time hence to live they had to learn and live the Sanskrit/Hindi language. why they didn’t return back to there Arab land is also well known that once Sind was conqured by ‘ ‘Mohammad bin qasim’ he had returned back and was tortured and executed by the new governor of Iraq after Hajjaj Yousaf was overthrown from his position as a governor in Iraq, and the Arab (arains) were warned in sind that if they returned back there fate would be the same as ‘Mohammad bin qasim’, so the arains struggled hard for a living in the subcontinent and most of them acquired land and some went into millatry positions as the 2 skills they possessed were fighting skills and agricultural skills. The arains also became known as the Mohammedans by the locals living at the time as they were recognised as the followers of the prophet Muhammad(S) and there 100% adherence to the sunnah (actions) of the prophet Muhammad(S), hence the arains were 100% Sunni in there practices. Notable people such as the Sufi saint ‘shah Inayat qadri’ spiritual guide of the famous ‘baba Bulleh shah’, and currently present ‘sultan Mohammad najib ur Rehman’ are some example of arains. History books such as ‘tareekh e arain’, ‘Sham-e-Multan’ and Saleem-e-tawreekh’ have been presented on arains history, and yet this wiki page seems to go on random quotes and statements on arain’ this wiki page seems to be trying to discuss who the arains are and trying to prove arains claim of Arab descent being False and it’s more of an attack in arains rather than anything else. why are the wiki pages on Shaikhs, Siddiqui, Farooqi etc not challenging them on claiming who they are and looking into dna testing etc. Why is it that the arains are being tested!!!!!!! were is the proof that arains have converted to Islam when all arains (not aryans) are 100% Muslim first there origin was being attacked and now there religious identity. This wiki page needs to construct on the history books on arain people and not research by ‘non-Muslim historitians’ and muslims of other casts and countries such as the ‘rajputs’ which may well bring in large elements of bias against the arains. Refer to the ‘arain society of Islamabad’ website or ‘arain council uk’, which clearly states who the arain say they are. IF THIS PAGE CAN NOT FIX THESE ERRORS THEN THE ARAIN PAGE SHOULD BE DELETED OF WIKIPEDIA. Janejo59 (talk) 01:10, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

I'm an arain and I saw that the feudal titles for the arain like mehar, mian and chaudhry have been removed are these types of Arains? Sidhu.ancx40 (talk) 23:36, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Chaudhary Muhammad Yaqub is well known Arain in Lahore. He was migrated fro Julandahar to Sheikhupura with his parents. Later he moved to Lyollpur and then Lahore. mudassar 00:32, 15 December 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mudassar66 (talk • contribs)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 3 January 2021

Change the Origin of the Arain tribe from Rajput/Hinduism to Arab/Muslim. Arain (Al-Raee/الراعی ) are the descendants of Shaikh Habib Al-Raee who was a Muslim Saint born in Syria. His son Shaikh Haleem Al Raee came along the armies of Muhammad Bin Qasim in Sindh and his descendants are now known as the Arain poeple.

Change the Languages spoken by Arains from only Punjabi to Punjabi, Sindhi, Pushto and Saraiki. Mehr Hassan Ahmed (talk) 09:37, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. – robertsky (talk) 13:41, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

I have mentioned a "Reliable Source" of wikipedia above which is Shaikh Habib Al-Raee. I quote from this page Shaikh Habib Al-Raee " His father, Shaikh Saleem Al-Raee, was the founder and chief ancestor from whom the Arain originate" and "Shaikh Haleem Al-Raee son of Shaikh Habib Al-Raee also belonged to the Arain (tribe) and migrated with Muhammad bin Qasim to Multan side of Pakistan with his army."

Plus I belong to the Arain tribe myself. I am very well aware about my history and The sole purpose is to correct the false history written here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mehr Hassan Ahmed (talk • contribs) 15:16, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

@Mehr Hassan Ahmed: we are not able to use other Wikipedia article as citation, as it is classed as user generated content and thus not reliable enough. Furthermore, the statement in that article is unsourced as well, thus not usable here even if transplanted. We do not operate on 'I am the subject matter expert here, therefore I am the word' principle here. Even if you are, you are expected to back it with reliable and verifiable sources. I suggest that you read through the beginner's guide to citation on Wikipedia first before coming back here. – robertsky (talk) 15:54, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 13 January 2021

Under the heading of "Origins". The origin of Arains acknowledged by the famous historian Akbar Shah Khan Najibabadi should also be added and mentioned. Akbar Shah Najeebabadi declared Arains to have entered along with the Arab armies of Muhammad Bin Qasim through Debal, Sindh. Arains came from the city of Jericho, Areeha an ancient city of Syria which is now in modern day Palestine. The word Areehai was derived from Areeha Jericho and was then Punjabized with a nasal sound to Arain. This assertion is supported by numerous references made in several Urdu language texts such as Tareekh e Arain, Shaam ta Multan, Tareekh Frishta, Tohfa Tul Ikram and Aina e Haqeeqat Nama. According to these sources the word Arain has been derived from Areeha Jericho which is the Arabic name for a city in the West Bank Palestine, the place where the Arains come from. Ahmed, Mukhtar (August 2016). The Arains- A historical perspective. USA. p. 24. ISBN 13:978-1532781179. {{cite book}}: Check |isbn= value: invalid character (help)CS1 maint: location missing publisher (link) Mehr Hassan Ahmed ([[User talk:Mehr Hassan Ahmed (talk) 17:17, 13 January 2021 (UTC)Mehr Hassan Ahmed|talk]]) 17:10, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. – Jonesey95 (talk) 17:23, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

The origin of the Arains should be changed from "The historian and political scientist Christophe Jaffrelot believes that the Arain are displaced farming communities who moved to Punjab from Sindh and Multan as Arab Muslim armies encroached; they originally practised Hinduism but many later converted to Islam. He says that the community is related to the Kamboj Rajput community mainly located in northern India and eastern Pakistan" to "The famous historian Akbar Shah Najibabadi declared Arains to have entered along with the Arab armies of Muhammad Bin Qasim through Debal, Sindh. Arains came from the city of Jericho, Areeha an ancient city of Syria which is now in modern day Palestine. The word Areehai was derived from Areeha Jericho and was then Punjabized with a nasal sound to Arain. This assertion is supported by numerous references made in several Urdu language texts such as Tareekh e Arain, Shaam ta Multan, Tareekh Frishta, Tohfa Tul Ikram and Aina e Haqeeqat Nama. According to these sources the word Arain has been derived from Areeha Jericho which is the Arabic name for a city in the West Bank Palestine, the place where the Arains come from."

Another URL for the book and the exact page is https://books.google.com.pk/books?id=iHFHDAAAQBAJ&pg=PA24&lpg=PA24&dq=akbar+shah+khan+najeebabadi+arain&source=bl&ots=4khHX45htI&sig=ACfU3U3ANoDsHlMNdILEe45aALbqVFHCcw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwju1ZzdopnuAhWCSxUIHT9FDiQ4FBDoATAEegQIBhAC#v=onepage&q=akbar%20shah%20khan%20najeebabadi%20arain&f=false

References

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 13 January 2021 (2)

The origin of the Arains should be changed from "The historian and political scientist Christophe Jaffrelot believes that the Arain are displaced farming communities who moved to Punjab from Sindh and Multan as Arab Muslim armies encroached; they originally practised Hinduism but many later converted to Islam. He says that the community is related to the Kamboj Rajput community mainly located in northern India and eastern Pakistan" to "The famous historian Akbar Shah Najibabadi declared Arains to have entered along with the Arab armies of Muhammad Bin Qasim through Debal, Sindh. Arains came from the city of Jericho, Areeha an ancient city of Syria which is now in modern day Palestine. The word Areehai was derived from Areeha Jericho and was then Punjabized with a nasal sound to Arain. This assertion is supported by numerous references made in several Urdu language texts such as Tareekh e Arain, Shaam ta Multan, Tareekh Frishta, Tohfa Tul Ikram and Aina e Haqeeqat Nama. According to these sources the word Arain has been derived from Areeha Jericho which is the Arabic name for a city in the West Bank Palestine, the place where the Arains come from."

Another URL for the book and the exact page is https://books.google.com.pk/books?id=iHFHDAAAQBAJ&pg=PA24&lpg=PA24&dq=akbar+shah+khan+najeebabadi+arain&source=bl&ots=4khHX45htI&sig=ACfU3U3ANoDsHlMNdILEe45aALbqVFHCcw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwju1ZzdopnuAhWCSxUIHT9FDiQ4FBDoATAEegQIBhAC#v=onepage&q=akbar%20shah%20khan%20najeebabadi%20arain&f=false Mehr Hassan Ahmed (talk) 19:49, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

 Not done. Matters of history need to be sourced to scholarly sources (academic sources) as per WP:HISTRS. This book is self-published. It is not a reliable source for anything. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 03:36, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

How do I know if a scholar is reputed or not? I have a got a lot of material from scholars who are considered reputed in my country and region but I am not sure if the internet knows much about them. Plus can you tell me how do I cite reference from a Book that is not written in English and a book that is not available online. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mehr Hassan Ahmed (talk • contribs) 09:56, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Books published by established publishers generally carry a brief biography of the author, which attempt to establish the credentials of the author for the topic at hand. If you cannot establish that they are reputed then we cannot use them. Not in matters of history.

You can cite books without any URL. See WP:Full citation for the details that are needed. You can include a brief quotation in the original language and provide your own translation, e. g.,

<ref>{{citation... }}: "... [foreign language quote]"; "... [translation]" </ref>

-- Kautilya3 (talk) 18:42, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

References

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 February 2021

71.190.14.59 (talk) 16:16, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shah_Inayat_Qadiri

famous Arain

 Not done: Needs a reliable source, and also unclear request. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 18:19, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

i want to edit please on this page. Thanks

Rahmatchoudhary (talk) 03:03, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: requests for decreases to the page protection level should be directed to the protecting admin or to Wikipedia:Requests for page protection if the protecting admin is not active or has declined the request. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:26, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 January 2022

Arain people also have origins from Balochistan. They were Hindus of Baloch and Sindhi origin who migrated to Punjab during the Arab conquest Pakistanijalebi (talk) 22:01, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Arain people also have origins from Balochistan. They were Hindus of Baloch and Sindhi origin who migrated to Punjab during the Arab conquest Pakistanijalebi (talk) 22:01, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Cannolis (talk) 23:08, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Notables

Admiral Afzal Tahir former chief of Naval Staff Pakistan should appear in the notables. He's Arain as per Wikipedia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afzal_Tahir — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mmza (talk • contribs) 09:19, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Suggestion

Former DG ISI Lt General Naveed Mukhtar and another DG ISI Lt General Nadeem Taj and Former PM Pakistan Chaudry Muhammad Ali should also be included in Notables as well. 39.42.6.115 (talk) 22:13, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 March 2022

The origin of the Arains should be changed from "The historian and political scientist Christophe Jaffrelot believes that the Arain are displaced farming communities who moved to Punjab from Sindh and Multan as Arab Muslim armies encroached; they originally practised Hinduism but many later converted to Islam. He says that the community is related to the Kamboj Rajput community mainly located in northern India and eastern Pakistan" to "In his book Punjabi Musalmans originally written in 1915, J.M Wikeley states that The Arains or Rains are a Musalman agricultural tribe, good cultivators, skilful, industrious, hardy and thrifty.The Arains claim to have come originally from Arabia, to have settled in Sindh,thence spread to Uch in Upper Sindh, and later migrated to the Punjab by way of Multan and Sirsa. They may be designated as a fighting race which has produced many Civil and Military Officers who have rendered good services to the nation. " Mehr Hassan Ahmed (talk) 08:15, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. That source does not seem particularly good, especially not good enough to displace the current sourcing. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 09:25, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

What is the procedure for "establishing a consensus for this alteration" and what is the criteria for a good source? Would the same book be acceptable if I source it through google books ? Mehr Hassan Ahmed (talk) 10:58, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

References

Arab origin theory lacks solid evidence. Multiple genetics studies disprove its theory and state theyre ethnic Punjabis also, so it wouldn't be logical to include just the arab origin theory and neglect the other more sensible ones. Trigarta (talk) 04:00, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 November 2022

The origin of the Arains should be changed from "The historian and political scientist Christophe Jaffrelot believes that the Arain are displaced farming communities who moved to Punjab from Sindh and Multan as Arab Muslim armies encroached; they originally practised Hinduism but many later converted to Islam. He says that the community is related to the Kamboj Rajput community mainly located in northern India and eastern Pakistan" to "In his book Punjabi Musalmans originally written in 1915, J.M Wikeley states that The Arains or Rains are a Musalman agricultural tribe, good cultivators, skilful, industrious, hardy and thrifty.The Arains claim to have come originally from Arabia, to have settled in Sindh,thence spread to Uch in Upper Sindh, and later migrated to the Punjab by way of Multan and Sirsa. They may be designated as a fighting race which has produced many Civil and Military Officers who have rendered good services to the nation. Mehr Hassan Ahmed (talk) 17:44, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. The current source looks to be much better quality. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 10:22, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Arab origin theory lacks solid evidence. Multiple genetics studies disprove its theory and state theyre ethnic Punjabis also, so it wouldn't be logical to include just the arab origin theory and neglect the other more sensible ones Trigarta (talk) 23:50, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

References

Additional content which should be added

Further mention of Arain influence/role in the Mughal empire should be written for example the rule of Adina Arain and how he had split Punjab away from the Mughal empire and allied with the Marathas against Durrani.

Their role during the Khalsa raj should also be mentioned as many fought in the military taking up General roles such as elahi Baksh Trigarta (talk) 23:49, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Religion of Arains

please add the exact figures of the religion of the Arains in Punjab as given by the 1931 Punjab Census to the "Religions" part of the main section of this page.

The total population of Arains: 1,330,057

Muslim Arains: 1,328,839 (99.91%)

Hindu Arains: 1,146 (0.086%)

Sikh Arains: 67 (0.005%)

Christian Arains: 5 (0.00038%)

Source: 1931 Punjab Census, Page 283

https://www.indianculture.gov.in/ebooks/census-india-punjab-part-ii-tables-vol-xvii-1931 MT111222 (talk) 12:28, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

my apologies.

I misread the numbers.

Correct numbers are as follows:

The total population of Arains: 1,331,295

Muslim Arains: 1,330,057 (99.91%)

Hindu Arains: 1,146 (0.086%)

Sikh Arains: 67 (0.005%)

Christian Arains: 5 (0.00038%)

Source: 1931 Punjab Census, Page 283

Please add these numbers onto the main part of this page.

Thanks. MT111222 (talk) 13:58, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

I've added it. Thank you very much for sharing this information. —CX Zoom[he/him] ^{(let's talk • {C•X})} 18:24, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

The Arain (Urdu: آرائین) are descendants of Arab invaders to the Indian subcontinent. Akbar Shah Khan Najeebabadi, an Indian historian of Islam, wrote that they entered India thru Debal, Sindh with Muhammad Bin Qasim in 92 Hijri (711CE). He refered to them as Areehai from Arreha (Jericho) which was Punjabized with a nasal sound to Arain. It is believed the word Arain is derived from the Arabic name Ar-Ra'i, "The shepherd", a title indigenous to Arabia.

Most Arains are very fair, and many have coloured eyes, which means that they could not be of Indian ancestary. This is more true because of the fact that even today Arains don't like to marry outside their clan. Even highly urbanised Arains do not like to marry "outsiders", resulting in Arains being the purest race in the subcontinent, Arains claim Arab descent, based upon the fact that nearly all Arains are Sunni Muslims as was Muhammad Bin Qasim. Large Number of Arains can be also found in Ahmadiyya Muslim Community in Pakistan and other Countries. Under the British Raj after the two Anglo-Sikh wars the Arains who were classified by the British as a non-martial race (at that time they were an almost exclusive agricultural caste of Muslim farmers and small land holders.) were brought into the Punjab to replace the Sikhs, who classified as a martial race were sought by the British as new recruits. Unlike many of the Muslims from Afganistan, who were slow to accept the change to the British educational system and the change from Persian to English, the Arains stressed the importance of education for their children, and with the wealth gained from their hard work they were soon dominating the legal profession in Punjab and as lawyers have found around the world, their move into politics was an easy one. Arain is the Largest and most populated Muslim Tribe of Pakistan and Subcontinent with Population of over 70 Million People. 116.71.186.51 (talk) 19:09, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 January 2024

The Arain (آرائین) are a Muslim agricultural caste primarily settled in the Punjab and Sindh regions of Pakistan. They are commonly associated with farming and have traditionally held positions as landlords or zamindars. The origin of the Arain caste is a subject of debate, and various perspectives exist. The prevailing information about their origin is outlined below.

Country of Origin: Determining the original nationality of the Arain can be complex due to changes in regional boundaries over time. It is often asserted that they are rulers of Arab descent, likely due to the fact that the majority of Arain are Sunni Muslims, similar to the early Arabs in Muhammad bin Qasim's expedition. According to historical accounts, Arain migrated from Areeha (Jericho, Syria) with Muhammad Bin Qasim in 92 Hijri (711 AD). Muhammad Hayaat Madni, a Commander in Muhammad Bin Qasim's Army, is mentioned in the family tree of the renowned Arain Mian Family Baghbanpura. The famous Indian Historian of Islam, Akbar Shah Khan Najeebabadi, declared that they entered India through Debal, Sindh, with Muhammad Bin Qasim, identifying them as Areehai from Arreha (Jericho), which was later adapted to Arain in Punjab with a nasal sound.

Muhammad Sharif, a UK-based Indian historian, notes in "Destiny of the Tribe Raeen" that Arain began coming to Sindh (Iraq-i-Ajam) in 46 Hijri (666 AD) towards the end of the Orthodox Caliphate. They were part of the Banu Sama sub-tribe of the Banu 'Amir tribe within the larger Aal-i-Adnan clan (The House of Adnan) through Hawazin.

A study by the Pakistan Journal of Medical Sciences on blood types in the Punjab showed that while O is the most common blood group among all ethnicities, B is most common among the Arain, indicating a statistically significant difference. While not definitive proof of non-local ancestry, it highlights a distinction between the Arain and other castes in Punjab.

Languages: Arains residing in different parts of Pakistan speak various languages, including but not limited to Urdu, Punjabi, Pothohari, Seraiki, Sindhi, Hindko, Pushto, and Pahari, depending on their place of residence.

Arain Family Names: Arains commonly use the following family names (titles): Chaudhry, Mian, Mehar, Malik, Ramay, Bhutta, Sappal, Mari Put, Ghurki, Ramday, Bhutto, Shami, Munda, Hansi, Gill, Daulay, Chachar, Gaellin, Mulanay, Qutab, Shahi, Rattay, Goheer, Ghalar, Gahgeer, Gatku, Kavali, Basroo, Rahi, Bhati, Multani, Sayal, Baga, Peer, and Alrai.

Famous Families of Arains:

Mian Family of Bagwanpura Lahore Ghorki Family of Lahore Mahar Family of Ghotki Bhutto Family of Larkana Kasuri Family of Kasur Mian Family of Faisalabad Kohastani Family of Faisalabad Sardar Family of Kasur Ratta Family of Sadiqabad Nawab Family Choudhri Family of Khanpur Zardari Family Academic References: Several academic references support these details, including Akbar Shah Najeebabadi's "Aina Haqeeqat Numa," Asgar Ali Chadhury's "Tareekh Arain," and Horace Arthur's "A Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North-West Frontier Province."

Hazmed (talk) 18:42, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 21:19, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

is there any update on this? If you need anything else let me know. 90.204.81.15 (talk) 21:47, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

The historian and political scientist Christophe Jaffrelot believes that the Arain are displaced farming communities who moved to Punjab from Sindh and Multan as Arab Muslim armies encroached; they originally practised Hinduism but many later converted to Islam. He says that the community is related to the Kamboj Rajput community mainly located in northern India and eastern Pakistan.

Ishtiaq Ahmed, a political scientist who is also a member of the Arain community, acknowledges that some early Arain texts ascribe a Suryavanshi Rajput origin, while others note a Persian one to reflect to others the status of being "conquerors". He believes that the Arains "are a mix of many ethnicities and races", similar to other "farming castes of the Punjab and Haryana".

The origins part needs to be changed to:-

The Arain (آرائین) are a Muslim agricultural caste primarily settled in the Punjab and Sindh regions of Pakistan. They are commonly associated with farming and have traditionally held positions as landlords or zamindars. The origin of the Arain caste is a subject of debate, and various perspectives exist. The prevailing information about their origin is outlined below.

Country of Origin: Determining the original nationality of the Arain can be complex due to changes in regional boundaries over time. It is often asserted that they are rulers of Arab descent, likely due to the fact that the majority of Arain are Sunni Muslims, similar to the early Arabs in Muhammad bin Qasim's expedition. According to historical accounts, Arain migrated from Areeha (Jericho, Syria) with Muhammad Bin Qasim in 92 Hijri (711 AD). Muhammad Hayaat Madni, a Commander in Muhammad Bin Qasim's Army, is mentioned in the family tree of the renowned Arain Mian Family Baghbanpura. The famous Indian Historian of Islam, Akbar Shah Khan Najeebabadi, declared that they entered India through Debal, Sindh, with Muhammad Bin Qasim, identifying them as Areehai from Arreha (Jericho), which was later adapted to Arain in Punjab with a nasal sound.

Remove the part:-

As of 1931 Census of India, out of the total Arain population of 1,331,295 in Punjab, 1,330,057 (99.91%) were Muslims, 1,146 (0.086%) were Hindus, 67 (0.005%) were Sikhs and 5 (0.00038%) were Christians.

This is factually untrue. Sources are:-

https://www.araincouncilcanada.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Arain-Book.pdf

page 68

can add this to this part also:

A study by the Pakistan Journal of Medical Sciences on blood types in the Punjab showed that while O is the most common blood group among all ethnicities, B is most common among the Arain, indicating a statistically significant difference. While not definitive proof of non-local ancestry, it highlights a distinction between the Arain and other castes in Punjab.

where it says:-

There are several diasporic Arain communities in British towns and cities, such as Manchester, Glasgow and Oxford. The tribe has its own organisation, Arain Council UK, which was established as Anjuman-e-Arains in the 1980s and renamed in 2008.

British Conservative Party politician Sajid Javid's family were farmers from the village of Rajana near Toba Tek Singh, Punjab, from where they migrated to the UK in the 1960s; Javid speaks some Punjabi. Javid was the first British Asian to hold one of the British Great Offices of State, being first Home Secretary (2018–2019) and then Chancellor of the Exchequer (2019–2020).

can include this:

The Arain (آرائین) are a Muslim agricultural caste primarily settled in the Punjab and Sindh regions of Pakistan. They are commonly associated with farming and have traditionally held positions as landlords or zamindars. The origin of the Arain caste is a subject of debate, and various perspectives exist. The prevailing information about their origin is outlined below. Hazmed (talk) 09:45, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

I am sorry but you have completely failed to establish any evidence of any of your claims. You have cited afew sources such as Ishtiaq Ahmed and Christophe Jaffrelots. Can you please cite the evidence they gave? Where are your academic references and evidences for such a claim? I have searched online and have found no academic works. Can you please provide an academic source for this please?

You cannot impose a intellectual dictatorship, claim a particular tribe in the subcontinent belongs to such and such, yet you do not even have access to the academic literature, historical documents in those countries because you have zero arabic, persian or urdu proficiency.

Arains is 1350 years old and the books i cited have numerous references in them dating back 1300 years ago. Saleem at tarawikh by sufi ali akbar, asghar ali choudhury in tareekh arain, jannat ul sindh, al baladuri, history of tribes and castes in pubjab by HA rose and many many more (in urdu, english, arabic and persian languages).

I am sorry but you have failed to produce anything to counter my arguments, whether that be Arains are entirely sunni muslims, or that they established the mansura empure and mahfuza and maksura empires in india, or that they fought against the Brahmans in India and conquered that region many years ago. Also, dna is proving that the y dna in arains have are related to many quraysh and adnani arabs who scattered all over the world with the subclades downstream of r1a - z94 -> l657 etc. This dna as confimed by anatole klysov is a qurayshi arab dna marker. Please provide evidence of your claims with sources.

https://groups.jewishgen.org/g/main/message/32374

How about you allow people who are actually from this part of the world, can access these academic works, have the language proficiency to read these documents, actually contribute to their own history as opposed to imposing an dictatorial dialogue?

The historian and political scientist Christophe Jaffrelot believes that the Arain are displaced farming communities who moved to Punjab from Sindh and Multan as Arab Muslim armies encroached; they originally practised Hinduism but many later converted to Islam. He says that the community is related to the Kamboj Rajput community mainly located in northern India and eastern Pakistan.

Ishtiaq Ahmed, a political scientist who is also a member of the Arain community, acknowledges that some early Arain texts ascribe a Suryavanshi Rajput origin, while others note a Persian one to reflect to others the status of being "conquerors". He believes that the Arains "are a mix of many ethnicities and races", similar to other "farming castes of the Punjab and Haryana". Hazmed (talk) 02:32, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

ahmed Hazmed (talk) 22:12, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

By the way i found a video of dr ishtiaq ahmed.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/FpajyUumMZE

Here he is saying that there are two theories of arains, and that one theory says there these are arabs from areeha from syria and he said this is plausible, then he said there is another argument that thes are a mixture of different tribes. In his own words he is unsure and never claimed such a thing as definitive. Hazmed (talk) 22:16, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

dear contributer, you need to come up with a concise response to my questions or i will open a dispute. Hazmed (talk) 01:40, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Hello. I am submitting corrections for the inaccuracies to this article on Arain. According to numerous academic sources in Urdu, Persian, and English, including British sources, the consensus is that the Arain caste is of Arabic heritage. The assertion that Arain has Rajput origins is incorrect. Additionally, there are false claims suggesting that some Arain individuals are Sikhs or Hindus, which is entirely untrue. The Arain community is unequivocally a Sunni Muslim caste. I will provide an "x to y" format for you, and please ensure that the article is rectified appropriately. Sources are cited at the bottom, and I can provide more if necessary.

Arain (آرائین) is a Muslim agricultural caste primarily settled in the Punjab and Sindh regions of Pakistan, associated with farming and traditional positions as landlords or zamindars.

Origin:

Claimed rulers of Arab descent, linked to Sunni Muslims like early Arabs in Muhammad bin Qasim's expedition.

Migration from Areeha (Jericho, Syria) with Muhammad Bin Qasim in 92 Hijri (711 AD).

Notable mention: Muhammad Hayaat Madni in Arain Mian Family Baghbanpura's family tree.

Entry into India through Debal, Sindh, identified as Areehai from Arreha (Jericho).

Migration:

Began coming to Sindh (Iraq-i-Ajam) in 46 Hijri (666 AD).

Part of Banu Sama sub-tribe of Banu 'Amir within Aal-i-Adnan clan through Hawazin.

Blood Types:

Study in the Punjab showed statistically significant differences.

Most common blood group among Arain: B.

Languages:

Arains speak various languages, including Urdu, Punjabi, Pothohari, Seraiki, Sindhi, Hindko, Pushto, and Pahari.

Family Names:

Commonly use family names (titles) like Chaudhry, Mian, Mehar, Malik, Ramay, Bhutta, Sappal, Mari Put, Ghurki, Ramday, Bhutto, Shami, Munda, Hansi, Gill, Daulay, Chachar, Gaellin, Mulanay, Qutab, Shahi, Rattay, Goheer, Ghalar, Gahgeer, Gatku, Kavali, Basroo, Rahi, Bhati, Multani, Sayal, Baga, Peer, Alrai.

Famous Families:

Mian Family of Bagwanpura Lahore

Mahar Family of Ghotki

Mian Family of Faisalabad

Sardar Family of Kasur

Nawab Family

Choudhri Family of Khanpur

Academic References:

Supported by academic works, including "Aina Haqeeqat Numa" by Akbar Shah Najeebabadi, "Tareekh Arain" by Asgar Ali Chadhury, and "A Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North-West Frontier Province" (Page 66) by Horace Arthur. Hazmed (talk) 22:07, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

https://archive.org/details/AinaHaqiqatNuma-AkberShahNajeebAbadi

https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/A_Glossary_of_the_Tribes_and_Castes_of_t.html?id=-aw3hRAX_DgC&redir_esc=y

https://www.scribd.com/doc/186259373/Tareekh-e-Arain-Urdu

https://www.araincouncilcanada.com/history/arain-history/

https://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Arain Hazmed (talk) 22:16, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

https://www.araincouncilcanada.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Arain-Book.pdf Hazmed (talk) 22:17, 12 January 2024 (UTC)